Forum Post: We Need a better way to fight back.
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 23, 2012, 11:54 a.m. EST by rickMoss
(435)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We Need a better way to fight back. Losing is not an option.
We are losing the battle because we can't see or touch the enemy. Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org ) – “entirely”. Anger and frustration is not a solution to our real problems. And honestly, does anyone believe that any significant change can come about by protesting? If so, feel free to ignore me. Reality is starting to wake up a lot more people now. Just being mad isn't enough. But reality isn't enough. We need a real plan with a strategy.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org/ )
Words in and of themselves can transform if we look at them closely.
"We need a revolution in government and a paradigm shift in technology if we're serious about moving the United States forward."
I would argue that we need a paradigm shift in government which can be achieved through a revolution in technology.
I would also argue that most sane people do not consciously seek to create a new worldview that conflicts with their current understanding. ie: a paradigm shift.
This leads me to believe that one of two things is happening here:
Either, a paradigm shift has already occurred, and we are in the process of re-organizing our current understanding to meet that shift;
or we are all insane.
You are right that a paradigm shift in our perspective would be required if we want to change the core issues that have been historically obstructing progress, and will continue to obstruct progress, unless we address these directly...
Although there are many people working hard to change the system, and are addressing issues and raising awareness, and many who have admirable goals and initiatives, there are some major disconnects that tend to continue to block forward progress, which can be very hard areas for us to get to the same page on...
If you really want to change the system, you may have to enter the system. Meaning you may have to become the judge, become the banker, BUT work for Occupy NOT for the system.
Now you're talking. Finally someone that gets it. When it comes to politics you have to elect those that hold the same ideals. We have a vote. We can change it!
I'm not sure bankers are necessary
someone suggested all money transaction be public
The system is broken. Your advice to me is to jump into a speeding car that is out of control because the steering is broken, and you want me to try to steer it kowning full well the steering and everything else doesn't and hasn't worked for quite some time. That is waste of time. We've been doing this nonsense for the last 30 years. I know you feel loyal to a system that you've probably known all your life. But make no mistake about out, that system is dead. We are living off the fumes of that dead system. If you haven't figured that out yet - I can't help you.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)
Agreed
Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. ~Albert Einstein~
http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx
Back in the 50's someone would have jumped in the speeding car out of control and come up with an idea to get the "steering" to work.
Why is that so "impossible" to do today?
The entire system is not broken. Only the laws. The rest of the republic is fine.
Wrong! Even the people are broken.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
No more tents, rather mass protests every week on the same day at the same place, with serious slogans and threatening demands. I admire everything that has taken place so far, but this movement is to spread out and needs to be more centralized. Less small cities, rather large protests in all major cities, with Union support, etc. If the current action is being continued we will catapult ourselves into meaninglessness.
It's called Choke Hold Method.
When we look at history we see one thing in common with all dictators and tyrants. The ones with longevity always surround themselves with corrupt generals, and these generals are the ones who protect them and keep the tyrant from being removed from office.
The same dictators allow those generals under him, to do whatever they want, that way, they make sure he stays in power, cause God forbid, if a real leader came around the same corrupt generals would be prosecuted.
Now, how does that apply to this system we live under?
here is how: we have a corrupt system, and it surrounds itself with corrupt generals (Corporations), like it or not, corporations are the ones who fork over the big money to support candidates and re-elect them.
Therefore, political parties in the current system (this system represents the Dictators or tyrants from the example at the beginning), make sure that corporations, just like the generals, get away with anything they want, this way, corporations will need to protect them with financial protection, while at the same time protecting themselves.
What can we do?
We can use the choke hold method to eliminate the generals one at a time.
How does it work?
First one target is selected, let us say for arguments sake, we find out who is giving money to super pacs for example, so we go after one general and tell the others if they do not stop, they are next. we boycott the one target until they give up or they are destroyed financially, that is why it is a choke hold and not a guillotine, cause with a choke hold if they give up we let go and they are not destroyed, so they get a chance to change their behavior.
With this system, we could control all things that get in our way, without a single demonstration, granted I'm all for demonstrations, but mastering the Choke Hold on the economy would give OWS a tremendous advantage and a voice louder than any megaphone.
Bottom line people, capitalism declares what flows through its veins CAPITAL, if we control capital, then we control capitalism, and we can make it work or fail, stay the same or change. it is up to us to do it.
Individually we control not much, but together, we could control everything. The question now would be, are we willing to do this, or sit back on our chairs behind our monitors and play revolutionary?
I'm game if you are, let's start some s--t...excuse my French please.
I like to keep things simple, this is not complicated at all, stop the flow of money and you got capitalism by the short and curlies.
BC
If you think about it, that would be true democracy, instead of corporations running the show, the collective of all people would be in charge, then real free markets, prosperity, etc. We could control quality of products and services we pay for, and the value of the dollar would be increased, cause companies would have to realize quickly, that if they build crappy stuff, we would not buy them. It's a win win situation. BC
I've been supporting them for years. If you want power returned to the people; these guys have a workable plan !!
http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx
Cheers :)
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The way to do it is take a list of change demands like this,
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/way
turn it into an on-line petition so that millions of people will sign it, and then send it to Congress and the President. Then you will have to be prepared to "dog it" through sit-ins and other 60s style protest efforts in order to get media attention. This requires a long, sustained effort of protests in Washington.
The movement requires some type of representative or liaison (notice I didn't say leader) to represent the movement's demands and serve as a point of communication with Congress and the President. Without this, there is no way to coordinate communication at the human level that is required for any effective interactions with Congress/President.
The KEY effort is continued peaceful protests by as many people as possible in support of the demands. Politicians and Corporations will then see that OWS is not something that will eventually loose momentum and quietly fade away. The movement will then start to gain more momentum instead of less as politicians realize that people are in it for the long haul. Just imagine what would happen if determined citizens occupied Washington, in mass, for not just weeks or months, but years if necessary, and ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to ever go away until the demands were met.
That is the way to do it.
With all due respect friend. We are 50 years past this. The challenges we face are huge. We have to go big and we have to do it now.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
OCCUPY DC PLUTOCRACY !
That's the source of all possible change, not Wall Street. Wall Street is just the pimp; we need to occupy the whore, in order to take the pimps lifeline away (aka Wall Street regulation)
I wish we would stop the singing and rather start real action. Boo and distaining remarks work better than jingles. We need mass demonstrations without songs and naked people . The Walker recall protests in Wisconsin should be a great example for action. Please watch their videos. The singing and clownish behavior makes us look ridiculous and people do not take us serious. A relentless, large, unionized, serious, and THREATENING protest will have a greater impact ! Thanks,
Patricia Folman
rickMossWe are losing the battle because we can't see or touch the enemy.
We are losing because we cannot find each other in the massive chafe of agents working "cognitive infiltration".
But you are correct in that secrecy veils all that we need to know to defend the constitution and stop war upon America by its government. Not a constitutional thing and has not been so since the civil war.
Fight the issue of right to property in the courts. Get arrested for occupying and right for your right to sleep above an imagined right to property in a land acquired through killing and theft.
America only stands on principles, if it doesn't abide by them, it falls.
It needs sheer numbers. Times Square at New Years' kind of numbers. Physically shut down Wall Street with an ocean of people.
That's what it's gonna take. Nothing else is gonna work.
Excuse me. What is this suppose to accomplish?
What do you think?
Force them to negotiate. Like a strike.
How do we strike Wall Street? This is the only way.
That's sad. "Force them to negotiate". They are turning us into terrorist. If we are clearly the majority. All it takes is for us to decide amongst ourselves what we want to do. The small 1% is insignificant. We are the real problem. We just have to decide to get out of our own way. OsiXs has the best plan, sorry, the only plan that makes sense.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)
Shutting down Wall Street is not ethical. I don't want to be a part of a bunch of losers that believe bullying is the answer. The best way to accomplish what we want is to elect those that hold our ideals. It's time to hold political rallies and get the right people in office.
Wall Street is not ethical.
If someone were raping your sister, would you not take action to stop them? Even if your actions were "not ethical?"
Crime needs to be fought with force. In this case nonviolent force, but force.
These people are criminals. And they own the politicians and worse, they own the political PROCESS by which we could deal with them.
Didn't you learn anything from what happened in Egypt?
Wall Street supported Mubarek for years. We're talking about the same group of people.
Did no one ever tell you two wrongs don't make a right? Pull that crap and I'll be cheering for the police to knock some sense into you and your buddies.
Pull what "crap"? Non violent protests?
How the fuck do you think you got a 40 hour work week, moron? You think the business owners just handed it out like candy?
Your forefathers had to fight, strike, and in some cases DIE for it.
You ungrateful piece of shit.
Grow some balls. Stand up for yourself. Be a fucking MAN for once in your life and fight for your rights as a human being.
Loser.
You violent angry attitude tells me all I need to know about you. Like I said I'll be cheering the police on when they knock that attitude out of your entitled head.
So I supposed you cheered them in Oakland last night, right?
You love violence, you love it when the heavily armed cops do it to helpless peaceful people.
You're a violence-loving asshole.
You want to get violent with me? Would you like that?
One thing I'm sure of from your attitude... You would be one of the first to get hit up side of the head during a protest then cry and whine about it. Check your anger and glorification of and support of those in the protest that have it coming to them. Learn to speak intelligently and present fact filled arguments. Persuade people to do what is right at the polls and you can see real change.
No self respecting individual would be persuaded by your disgusting angry entitled attitude.
Why should I waste my time with a violence-loving troll like yourself?
I don't do that. You want to dish it out, you'd better be able to take it.
Violence loving nutjobs like yourselves seem to want things like this to happen here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/01/27/india-factory-workers-revolt-kill-company-president/
India Factory Workers Revolt, Kill Company President
JFK said: "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
Thanks for your contribution to the coming violence. May you find yourself in the middle of it, you love it so much.
Just the opposite. I despise your hateful, spiteful attitude. I am a proponent of intelligence and working within the system. No revolts, no revolutions, Simply elect candidates that are honest and understand the problems we face today. I'm pretty certain we just witnessed the result of people with your attitude and people that want to act outside the law in Oakland. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/29/violent-occupy-oakland-protests-leave-hundreds-arrested/ You won't be getting any sympathy from me when you get what you ask for. If you want to act above the law don't be surprised when the law comes down on you.
Yeah, shut down wall st, make companies and investors (including 410k and mutual funds) lose some billion dollar, drive the economy down into an abyss and then complain that you have no jobs. Sounds like an awesome idea to me.
If you were older, you'd remember that our forefathers did these things called "strikes". They risked their lives for them, sometimes they were even shot and killed by the corporations goons and hired cops.
Read your history, Dumbcapitalist.
DumbIgnorantCapitalist.
Talk about losing money and shutting down the economy! That's what the Wall Street crooks DID, EXACTLY, in 2008!
Dumbass.
People shot in strikes? When exactly?
As for losing money, we made that money in the first place. You cant always have it your way. You win some you lose some
OMG you are so fucking ignorant. Read up on the creation of Unions and the Labor Movement in the United States you dumbshit.
Man, public education has REALLY gone downhill. You're a perfect example of how.
And you can only strike if you are a part of the organization. Besides strikes are peaceful. Forcefully occupying the premises of a organization that you have nothing to do with is trespassing on private property. That's not strike. That's hooliganism dumbass.
So what happened in Tahir Square in Egypt was hooliganism to you?
Nice.
Oh please. Dont glorify OWS namby pambies by comparing their squatting and shitting at a park with Egypt revolution. Such grandiose sense of self you Occutards have
In Egypt you would have been a Mubarek supporter.
In 1776 you would have been a Tory.
You know it's true. Hell, WE know it's true, so maybe you're in denial, but it's clear as fucking air that it's true.
Strawman arguments. I don't live in Egypt and neither is this 1776, so those comparisons are as baseless as OWS demands. Where in Egypt protesters braved torture and military to protest, you fools cry "Police brutality" every time a cop prevents you from pooping at a public place.
And you think the only roles for children in society are either factories are brothels.
You think military-grade pepper spray on someone who is just sitting there isn't brutal? Okay, let's get together and I'll try it on you. Howzzat?
WTF? Now you are simply being a douche... oh wait, you are one. When you have nothing much to say, which is most of the time, you come down to twisting facts and insulting people. Typical of your kind. Shows nothing but a rather shallow mind.
and you aren't?
That was long long back asshole. You can still strike and no one is going to shoot you.
Yeah right. They'll just beat you, pepper spray you, taze you, and jail you.
Like they did the OWS protestors.
Dumbshit.
You have NO IDEA how people fought for you on your behalf. You're shitting on the graves of people who gave up their lives so you could have the rights you now take for granted.
You're an epic douche.
I can tell by your attitude that you are one of the ones that would get pepper sprayed, tazed and thrown in jail. No wonder these things go on. Perhaps an anger management class would benefit you along with learning how to express yourself intelligently.
OWS protesters werent striking. They were occupying and shitting in a park that is meant for the people to stroll and take a walk. They were disrupting business, getting violent., engaging in public indecency and vandalism and not to mention obstruction of justice. They should get pepper sprayed.
I think it is you thats need to understand that the foundations of American society is built on a spirit of entrepreneurship and self reliance and not on begging for handouts.
Nobody's begging for a handout but the 1%ers who went whining to their sugardaddy, Hank Paulson and the American Taxpayer to fund their GAMBLING LOSSES.
And if you're so against "handouts", why aren't you upset about the massive, trillion dollar CORPORATE WELFARE that's called the "defense industry" and the "homeland security industry"?
Oh yeah, because you're living in a fantasy world. And you're fucking ignorant as all hell.
And the only people getting violent at the OWS protests were the cops.
Dumbass.
"And the only people getting violent at the OWS protests were the cops." - Really? Even someone like me who doesn't watch much TV knows about the violent shenanigans of Occutards.
As for TARP, it was a loan that was fully paid back. Not a handout. handouts are what you guys are asking
No, the 14 + trillion handed out by the fed to the banks at 0% who then bought treasuries earning 3-4%, that was a hand out.
I'm just getting tired of these rich beggars bringing the system to the verge of collapse, just so they can get another dose of charity at the poor and middle classes expense.
14 trillion? You might want to check your numbers (and also check how the said numbers were arrived at). Then may be we can talk
Oh, do you never learn?
you usually spout lies then question others, then I bring a link to the actual facts.
Oh well, I'll play your silly game, Here's the official GAO audit report:
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf
Now this report cites 16 trillion, but 2 trillion can be exed out due to being other governmental subsidiaries, but the other 14 trillion went to the private sector
Next time, before you try to be condescending, make sure your opponent is even dumber than you (good luck with that)
Good job, debndan. He is not very bright.
yeah, I know, I've ran into him before. He always spreads lies, distortions and half-truths.
Generally I pull out the exact documents involved, and he just blathers onward anyhow, damn the facts.
Which is kinda nice, since everyone else here can read the actual reports, then his distortions, or new misdirections.
Yeah this very report (I think page 122 if I remember correctly). It also tells you how the $16 trilion figure was arrived at which you guys fail to mention. The loans (TARP) given to banks were over night loans and they were 'renewed' everyday for a certain duration.
So say Bank X got an overnight loan of $10 million and it was renewed for say a year (300 days) after which time it was paid back, the GAO report, to normalize the figures (because different loans had different principals and different numbers of roll overs), multiplied the $10 million with 300 = $3 billion.
However, the money that was given was the same $10 million every day and not a different $10 million each day. The gross transaction size is what that figure is. So if I paid you $20 and then you returned it to me and then I paid it back to you, the gross transaction would be $60 and net $0.
That is what this report says, if you really cared to look at it.
More importantly, if the Federal Reserve made $16 trillion in loans, it would be somewhere in the Fed's balance sheet (yes every Central Bank has a balance sheet) for each day of that period. It wasnt.
So my advice to you:
Read reports well. And don't just read what's there in some website. Read the real thing. There are lies, damn lies and statistics
Next time, pick someone your own size.
I don't have to lie. Not for such trivial stupid matters. Do you really think you are that important that I would want to lie?
Stop wasting my time.
Get a job.
The movement needs to understand and implement, multi-pronged marketing/PR.
It's the same "weapon", those in control use against us, at every turn.
Turn the tables and use it against them.
This method of fighting back is actually what I'm trying to get off the ground. See this post here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/overlooked-ways-to-legitimately-attack-financial-b/
Setting up astro turf web sites should be a piece of cake, getting them to rank high on google could be done too.
In the interest of regaining public trust, lost through mis-branding, I would suggest dropping the term revolution.
Just drop the R and make it Evolution.
It's a much more approachable term, and carries less negative baggage.
Evolution NOW!!!!!!
Get the money out!
I can see the enemy. I just can't reach through the screen and choke the shit out of 'em.
I know you do this often, but every time I read that line I have the overwhelming urge to say this. Today, I just could not resist.
Thanks for the kind words. But at least I stand for something. What do you stand for. Everyone else is just spouting silly ideas with hardly any thought behind them, no plan no strategy, no nothing. We did that in the sixties and look where it got us. Finally in my long old life I've found someone with a clue. And guess what? It's not you. Do yourself a favor. Learn from our mistakes. The younger generation can't afford to be the screw-ups we turned out to be. Good Luck - GirlFriday - Good Luck!
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)
I already explained that Direct Democracy isn't the answer. I did that a few months ago.
Miss Friday, what you are saying? What are thinking. DD (Direct Democracy) gives you more control over your own life and destiny. It is the same choice as choosing freedom over slavery. Only an ignorant fool would choose otherwise.
DD (Direct Democracy) is a real democracy. A republic is for suckers. A republic is not a real democracy but it is often sold as if it was. And you wonder why your government and politicians ignore you. This is not a real democracy people - Wake Up. They will continue to screw you because you are so intent on screwing yourself. Mam, the screw is going to keep growing until it busts your backside. That is the reason that occupy exists today. The people want to remove this ever growing screw from their behinds.
My goodness. Freeing slaves is hard work. Harriet Tubman was so right.
“I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.” ~Harriet Tubman
Choke off their blood supply, money. Don't buy the products of those that support them, the corporations, the wealthy, and the financial institutions.
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rickMossWe need a real plan with a strategy.
Did you see this? http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
Protesters should start building instead of attempting to destroy. They should create the world they want by starting anarcho-syndicalist based companies in which all employees are treated equal and benefit from health care and other perks. There's no reason to wait for the 1% to give us what we want, we should just go out and create it ourselves.
It may simply be an issue of "better people" to fight back. The fearful, complacent and docile have never been depended upon for any important changes.
To fight back with what? You can't fight back with empty hands and empty heads. If you don't know how to fight then it is probably wise to be fearful, complacent and docile.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
The system is corrupted. It is governed by the corrupt. To elude oneself into a belief that the system can be used for change is naivete.
One empty hand can do more damage than a courtroom full of corrupted "authorities". Example: regardless of how oppressive you are to your fellow citizen, you still have to ensure that your family is safe in your absence. Any inability to ensure that, can easily result in a spectrum of retaliation. Basically, if you oppress your fellow citizens and you expect safety at home, you are mistaken. You deserve no safety. Your family deserves no safety and you have become prey.
Essentially, it takes very little to communicate a message of equality to those who feel superior, simply by approaching the oppressor and his/her family with the same indifference at home, or at school, or at work. Never in a theater of conflict.
I hope that clears up your doubt in the seemingly unarmed.