Forum Post: "We Have Seen The Enemy And He IS US"
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 3, 2011, 6:13 a.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I know I won't make myself popular with this post, but I think it's true, so here we go.
When you really look at what has gone wrong in this country since WWII, more than anything else the cause has been apathy, distraction, negligence and self-centeredness on the part of the majority of the American people, along with billions spent on propogandizing us.
When Kennedy was shot we accepted what we were told, even though our eyes could have told us otherwise. When we were led into Vietnam we believed our leaders, rather than becoming educated and asserting our convictions. Millions of blue-collar workers voted for Reagan - a fact still almost incredible to me. We stood by while one Congressional election after another fell into the hands of the puppets of vested interest, and when they redistricted elections in order to assure that outcome. We didn't take to the streets to challenge the outcome of Bush/Gore. We believed, or simply remained inactive when Bush Jr. told us Iraq was at fault for 9/11.
These are facts, and we must take them into consideration. We cannot change the world without first changing ourselves. That is why many of us advocate education, and spiritual transformation, as being at the heart of this cause. We must do some real soul-searching, and create within ourselves a higher set of values than Americans have shown in recent generations - or there will be no success, because success is unobtainable without spiritual transformation, and here I am not advocating religion or the lack of it, but a re-awakening of conscience, and compassion, and a renewed regard for the sacredness of human life, and that of the living things of this earth . Without this all our efforts will ultimately come to nothing, because in the larger context of existence, in the end, this is the only thing that really matters.
Completely agree. I'd taught my children not to believe anything they see or hear w/o gathering data and making a logical, reasoned decision of their own. Additionally, you have to be able to change your belief when presented w/ conflicting data. In my experience, people are a lot more likely to latch onto ideas that support their beliefs, and discard all others. Also, when presented w/ what appears to be overwhelming "proof", you have to keep in mind that there can be any number of causes that produce the same symptoms. At best you should classify your beliefs as a working hypothesis, not necessarily true, but usable until shown to be wrong.
Agreed. You think highly.
Thank God! The voice of reason - where did it come from - it's like a voice in the wilderness! We do have a tradition of reason in The West, why and when did we abandon it?
I don't have clue as to the reasons people think the way they do. Sometimes I think it's because it's comforting to them to think that things are "hunky dory" in the ways that "facts" have been presented to them. In the old days of print, there was at least the excuse that data was harder to locate. IMO, there's no excuse today. You DO have to wade through the BS, but you CAN. However I saw the same thing over 50 years ago, when I was about 5 years old. I couldn't understand why so many people made decisions that were obviously wrong. I always assumed that they were privy to some information that I didn't have. It took awhile to learn that no, they usually didn't. I like the concept of looking at things as if you're seeing them for the first time. Not always practical when dealing w/ something that's time sensitive. However, the idea is to rationally think about things. Don't make the assumption that just because something looks like something else you've experienced, that it's actually the same. Sometimes just intent can change the meaning of an experience.
My daughter majored in sociology because she also didn't understand why people did stupid things. I think it's OK to give people the benefit of the doubt when the outcome isn't potentially dangerous, but you have to use reason when people can be hurt. I don't have any problem letting people spout nonsense when I think it's harmless, but I have to say something when I think it's potentially damaging.
What a mind you have! I've thought like you for a while now. I grew up thinking why everyone did the stupid things they did when they all had the ability to look it up on google. People were not taught well at childhood, and the cycle will continue so long as there are inadequate parents out there raising children and raising themselves at the same time.
You see what I am driving at completely. Thanks.
No, thank you.
"Personal transformation can and does have global effects. As we go, so goes the world, for the world is us. The revolution that will save the world is ultimately a personal one." - Marianne Williamson
POWERFUL. That is they key insight in this whole mess!!!!!
Your analysis is perfect. Are the policians who kill their people with their shameful lies. The same thing happens in Italy, too.
I even try to give politicians the benefit of the doubt. A good majority here are lawyers, and what do they really know but the law. The legal system, IMO, isn't about finding the truth anymore, but just winning. I AM of the opinion that a lot, if not most, politicians seem to be more concerned w/ elections, than doing what's right. A lot seem to be willing to selectively use "facts" to support what they want to do. However, in countries where elections are held, and there's free access to data...Why do we keep voting the same people into office? A lot of the blame is ours.
In Italy we've had the same politicians for half a century and we aren't able to throw them away from the Parliament because the 30% of the italians are still deeply ignorant. Democracy is no more a value. Now we've just to control if they pursue our interests or not. However the time for these criminals to pay for their bestial greed has come in America, in Italy and in all the evoluted Countries.
Yes, I think that time has come.
Thank you, GypsiKing. Your words satisfay my thirst of justice. The global revolt is in the air. It's enough to given up never.
We can't afford to give it up this time. The survival of mankind is on the line. We will not stop! We will prevail!
It's the same opinion of the honest men all over the world. In Europe the left political parties are quickly increasing and in Russia the Communist Party, also if Putin has manipulated the elections, has become three times stronger than before. This means that people want to be sure about home, job, pension and health. If the banksteins won't realize it, the movement will go on as far as the world will be changed.
Yeah we have the same problem. Voters HAVE to be better informed, and not rely just on what the politicians tell them. I'd guess 50% of our voters are not as informed as they need to be. I hope change will, come. I don't count on it though. At least they know we're pissed.
It's the same problem in all the western world. They know that we are indifferent to our sort. So they exploit the situation to draw out their advantage. In Europe the police, which is poorer than the protesters, breaks their heads to live on. In America the politicians have created a law according to which they can put in prison, torture and condamn the protesters whithout a process. This happens because they know that the citizens have realized the trick and in a little time will thow them out of the power. Occupywallst is the beginning point of a world revolution that will completely change the system. In the french and the russian revolution the liberists defeated the ancient regime. In this revolution the people will defeat the liberists. There's no compromise. This is a very important historical period. Everybody has to engage himself in this terrible fight with all his strenght. Our aim will be reached if only we want it, our flag is universal and our motto is "to win or to die"
Thakks for your valuable words from Italy! We are all in this together - every person in the world who wants to live FREE!
It's impossible to live without democracy and freedom in the XXI century. It's impossible that the liberists can't realize this simple truth.
"People get the Governemnt they Deserve"
That is very true, but people can also grow to deserve a better govenment, and much, much more. The power of the human spirit is amazing when it truely wakes, as it did in The Renaissance (a nod to our Italian friend here) and the Athenian Golden Age, and at many other times in history. It is ourselves we must not sell short!
By the way, look up the charactor Thracymachus (sp) in Plato's Socratic diologues, if you want to know who our favorite troll on this site is modeling himself after. Despicable!
People were saying the financial system would collapse in the 1960s. They also said the climate would be ruined by 1984 because of aerosol sprays.
Humans are pretty resilient and so are the financial system and the climate. Sure there are bumps and peaks but somehow we get through them.
There is a general kind of truth in what you are saying here, and I both hope and believe we will get through all of this too, but there are some very serious problems here now that need to be faced. The founders were quite clear on the need for eternal vigillance to preserve democracy, and we must move on the issue of climate change before it's too late. The Arctic Ice Cap will soon be no more. Think about that. How long has it been there - eons! These are really serious environmental changes, and we cannot simply allow ourselves to stand by and watch the energy companies fiddle while a lot more than just Rome burns.
I did a lot of reading about climatology and to some degree the planet does self regulate. As it gets warmer, we get more evaporation in the oceans which means there are more clouds which means less light gets through which means it gets cooler. The rains wash the carbon out of the air. Sure we will have floods in some areas and droughts in others which is not good, but the planet will continue on.
The truth is, if you look at the ice age cycle we are heading for a period of ice. These cycles are caused by a the tilt of the earth’s axis which changes on a cycle. The earth wobbles as it rotates the sun. There is nothing we can do to stop that wobble however if there is an ice age, we will survive.
Well, climatology is a very complicated science, but I believe there is now almost universal recongnition on the part of climatologists that we wre expierencing carbon dioxide based global warming, and if you don't believe that's serious just look at the planet Venus, which is not that much nearer the sun then we are and has a surface temperature of 700 degrees farenheight because of the level of Co2 in its atmosphere.
I believe we will suvive, but not through inaction.
There are several problems with you Venus comparison.
The planet Venus is not in the green zone and the earth is. Venus also rotates very slowly. In fact it's day is longer than it's year. It's day is about 243 earth days.
Trust me, we are overdue for an ice age and no amount of carbon is going to stop it.
I find it hard to believe that after the year we just had a farmer would be denying the existence of global warming. I doubt many farmers in Texas are denying it any longer. The scientists are pretty much all in agreement that it's real, and the evidence for it is right before our eyes. I am fascinated really, from a psycological standpoint, by why there is so much denial. Of course a lot of it is engendered by ideas spread by the energy companies, who stand the most to lose if people face the facts and demand change. But I think there are also a lot of people who really just can't face it, because the implications take them out of the realm of their expierence and understanding, or in other words, their safty zone.
My sympathies lie with the latter group. We all know how hard it is to be shaken from the views that have made us feel stable and centered in a very unpredictable, and often frankly just plain scary existance. Well, time will tell.
I did not deny the existence of global warming. What I said is that astrophysics plays a greater role in our climate change than most people are aware of. Sun spot cycles and earth axis shift cause climate change a greater scale than carbon emissions. The Sahara desert used to be a jungle. Antarctica used to be grasslands. Some rain forests used to be deserts. Climate change is real and unavoidable.
As far as Texas and wildfires go there is a cycle that causes that as well. The el nino/ la nina cycles in the pacific have an effect on the Santa Ana winds, moisture content in the west and tornados in the mid west. We are currently in a La Nina year. We had the same weather time last time we were in la nina.
We have come a long way in reducing carbon emissions. The free market system has brought us fuel efficient cars that get over 40mpg. Technology is being used to clean the air that comes out of factories and power plants. We need to do more but we are heading in the right direction.
Without getting into a lot of technical detail here I would say that theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It is a simple matter of denial.
Which theory doesn't hold up? That the axis of the earth moves periodically (the North Star actually moves). That there are sun spot cycles that change the amount of energy leaving the surface of the sun? There are El Nino cycles in the pacific? The Sahara used to be a jungle.
Tell me which one you believe does not hold up to scrutiny and I will show you that it does.
The theory that any of these are factors of any comparable consequence to rising Co2 levels, in the explaination for recent global warming.
I did not say that CO2 levels were not rising. I did not say that any of those factors had anything to do with CO2 levels.
You did say that the fires in TX were related and I was pointing out that had more to do with La Nina.
Okay, then I really don't think we are disagreeing on anything of substance:)
But we are changing ourselves in the movement. For the vast majority of people I would say that 24 hours at an occupation (and I do mean a full 24 hours) is a life changing experience as they experience the beginnings of what a just, democratic, loving and peaceful society would look like in the social relations and decision making process of OWS.
Absolutely! And that is why the world will someday owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who occupied Zucotti park, and to that guy in Tunesia who lit himself on fire in frustration and was the calalyst for all this, and to everyone that simply gets up out of their chair and, like randog, I believe, commented on this thread, just say, "We're sick and tired of it and we're not going to take it anymore!"
In my opinion OWS has done practically everything right. But there's probably still a long, hard fight ahead of us, unless the real masses can suddenly stop simply snoozing on the deck of a rudderless ship of state with no captain aboard.
O.k., so I wasn't actually going to reply to this post, as I didn't want a 'negative', thread up above, I was going to PM...but I changed my mind...
Our 'ignorance', is more all-encompassing, than we could ever even contemplate, and that is something no-one likes to hear.
Do you, know what it took to produce the chair your sitting on? Or the methods used to extract the lithium in the screen your looking at? Of course not. Our ignorance touches everything now, our environment, our homes, our food, everything, to the extent that even this ignorance is something that we are ignorant of.
We like to think we know, us sheeple. And yes, I say us. Me too. We like to think we're right, we're in control, and that we, we alone, have and hold the keys to survival.
We DONT like being reminded of the truth. That we DONT know, we DONT have control, never did, and that we can die.
Facing this truth, or having it face you....is....difficult. And for most it is something to difficult to try.... those usually stick with denial, and viciously defend their right to it, even when it is 'they'(us) that pay the price for it.
What is the cost? It's not $12.95. That's the price. What is the COST of our world, if not our world? We enslave one child, in order to clothe another. We starve one person to feed another. What is the cost? We trample over decades of history, billions of people, countless species of animals, and countless unique and amazing environments and bury it in our communal subconscious, and then, then we discuss price, as if the cost, never even existed.
Our ignorance is all encompassing, but, I MUST hope. I MUST believe. I cannot go quietly into the night. I WILL NOT TALK OF PRICE any longer! NO! NO I say! I say we must KNOW! We MUST learn and grow, and discuss cost again, as we should have from the start.....
We must not discuss the price of a child, ANY child, any longer.... as others have said in this thread.... the time has come.
Omnia vincit amor. Nosce te ipsum.
Thank you for helpng us to face a few "inconvienant truths" here. This IS the issue - it isn't about politics anymore - it transcends those old ways of thinking. What's called for is an awakening that both supercedes and accepts religious differences, that transcends dogma, that refuses to be led astray by divissiveness and insists on inclusiveness. There are many who would look at the current situation in The Middle East, for example, and just laugh at such a thought as being idiotic. But then those people really have no reason for faith, or even for existance; no reson to go to any place of worship at all because they have given-up and have simply become part of the problem. The fact remains; either we grow or we will destroy ourselves. The question is - is our ego greater than our desire to survive?
I'm with you on this one. 'Be the change..' I think transformation on a personal level goes somewhat hand in hand with achieving collective awareness and understanding. I like what hyarborough has said as well.
Somehow we must achieve what our spiritutal leaders have been saying to us for 2,500 years. If Jefferson is the inspiration for this movement than Ghandi should be our guide. He walked this walk, along with millions of People in India just 60 years ago. His struggle is well documented. It is also our struggle, and I think his autobiography is required reading because he was the first, and perhaps greatest, advocate of political transformation through spiritual awareness. He was also accepting of all faiths and belief systems that had genuine morality and concern for all life as their common denomenator. It is a big leap, but in order to truely succeed we must make it, and we will. A better day is coming!
I am currently reading 'Gandhi's Truth' a biography of sorts written by the psychologist Erik Ericson. I feel a kind of responsibility to educate myself as much on Gandhi as i can, seeing as how as you say, he had such success and has so much to offer in the way of peaceful, non-violent militance. Such synchronicity as well with that Philip Glass play happening recently in New York. I cannot recall the word, but it seems fitting to me that he put such emphasis on truth, and the power of truth.
Great, Erik Ericson is also a fine thinker along these lines, as is Marianne Williamson and Melody Beattie. Sychronicity is the word, going back to Plato. I think a lot of trolls on this site have adopted Greek names from Plato with the exact intention of discrediting his thought, hoping that no one will read his work. It has been said that all philosophy is but a footnote to Plato, and I believe that is completely true. A lot of potent thinking is coming together here now, and I find that very exciting!
I love Plato. Read the Republic back in the day, and i honestly can't remember too much specifically, it did leave it's impressions on me, and in general i think Socrates is very helpful towards training the mind to think critically. There is something to be said also for the Socratic method i think.
I think their (Socrates' and Plato's) belief that the truely eternal "forms" of truth, justice, love, etc., are real - and that the supposedly "real" facts of existance are merely transitory illusions - are also tremendous realizations, with profound importance in our quest to interpret what is and what is not meaningful in life. It is their greatest contribution to our collective inheritance. It has profound implications for the true meaning of life, and for the success of this movement. I think Jesus also had a word or two on this subject.
Completely in accordance with what you wrote! To help our own changes, look at these two very efficient techniques:
1) HO'OPONOPONO is marvellous: http://www.ho-oponopono.org/ 2) EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) : http://www.emofree.com/
this will help you and you will notice changes around you and your life!
I keep saying that if you want to Occupy Wall Street you must first Occupy your mind - and if you don't you open the door to the possibility that someone else will . . . .
Exactly! Every real spiritual leader since Jesus,, and before has tried to communicate that same message to us. The question of our survival hinges on being able to truly understand and live, to the best of out abilities, by that light. The problem, in short, is us, and we must fight that problem in ourselves before we can acomplish anything on a global level. We must fight that problem first and foremost, or perish.
.
..
.
..
focus
.
..
.
on the sound
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..
.
of one hand
.
..
clapping . . .
You said nothing in your post that can be translated into meaningful practice. It's just babble.
You are simply one of the lesser imps and demons of trolldom, and you should either seek an exorcism, or simply crawl back down into the pit.
You use big words, but nothing is said.
What light? Where? What do you mean by understanding ourselves? How do we know when we understand ourselves?
What problem exactly, and how do we know when it's solved. What solution are you talking about exactly? You start by saying the problem is us, then you imply the problem is within us. That's not the same.
You're using fancy jargon, but you're saying nothing. If you want to understand something, the first thing is that God hasn't even been proven to exist. You're imbued in a dream; you mind chloroformed by religion. You can't offer concrete solution, so you dabble in new-age babble drivel.
You have made your own belief in your own rational ability your God. This is probably true to the degree that you are so out of touch with the totality of your own being that you cannot even form normal human relationships. The mind is not the soul, it is but a tool of the soul. When it comes to competely dominate a person's being then they become out of balance, and able to rationalize anything to give them the material possessions they think will make them happy, in lew of the things that might actually make them happy, if they could only get in touch with their soul again. I'm not a dreamer. I see the light. You are in a cave looking at shadows on the wall, and mistaking them for what is real. That is why you don't believe that humans are capable of anything better than eternal strife. Does that answer your question?
What soul? Do animals have a soul? What evidence do you have that a soul exists? Is there even a proper definition of what a soul is? Your talk is meaningless because you use words that have no clear meaning.
BTW - I was not in the cave, Glaucon was.
I just replied to all this and was given a message that said "system malfunction," and I guess that about somes it up for your thoughts on the matter anyway. You're still thinking in terms of Newton and have not yet understood the implications of Hisenburg, if we must do the tedious left-brain bashing thing.
Who's Hisenburg? Do you mean Heisenburg? Heisenburg lived a hundred years ago. That's old news. We already went by Feynman and Hawking since. Postmodernity is already nearing its end, and you refer to modern scientists like Heisenburg? Please.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-seen-the-enemy-and-he-is-us/#comment-461629
I said you didn't get the implication of Heisenburg, not that you didn't know his name or how to spell it!
You wrote Hisenberg, not Heisenberg. The implication of his work is important, but not too difficult to grasp. You are drowning in assumptions my dear. You do not know who I am.
WARNING: On this site, I have been called a troll, a psyops capable of mind infiltration, a government mole, and a zionist-sock-puppet. Read my opinions at your own risk.
Iv'e been occupying my mind with books since I was able to read. Started with Poe, and finished with Joyce. Nowadays, young lads occupy their minds with conspiracy theories and lame TV shows like Monster Quest. Occupying your mind is not the issue; the issue is what are you occupying it with.
I thought being zen meant you de-occupied your mind? Are you sure you're really into buddhism?
and what is it to contemplate the sound
of a single hand clapping?
Is this mental activity Occupation?
De.Occupation?
The doing of undoing
is not the same
as the doing of not,
and contemplation of not
is doing.
You seek that state
of no-mind
which is neither doing
or not.
Be I say -
and Occupy your mind.
Dribble babble drivel in a drop down comment box.
Tooting two toots to toot a truth?
Pooping pour man's poop pourquoi?
Doing to undo the do, is only doing more do.
Zen is not an act, it is a state.
Do not; undo not; do not even dot a spot.
Unknot the knot of doing and undoing a do-ing doo-doo.
Do not do, do not do knots, and do not do an undo too.
Oooo.. Zendog do doo-doo. poo-poo!
no-no.
too much doing
AMEN!
Uhhh good post.
When you think about it, a certain amount of humility is called upon in every one of us. I am just as guilty of egotism and self-riteousness as anyone, no matter how hard I try to curb these failings. But I think accepting our flaws as human beings can help us to accept the flaws in others, and to see that we really are all in this same boat together - even, in the final analysis, the 1%.
Somehow, some way, there needs to be the realization that past ways of doing things, ways of doing things that are ancient and perhaps even "hard-wired" in us, are no longer working. They are now in fact destroying us.
Someone once said that "All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Truer words were never said. We are all in the gutter. That is the nature of survival here on planet earth, and if you don't believe that you have probably been fortunate enough to live a sheltered life. But we also need to look up at the stars, and not simply accept the inevitibility of our own destruction because of our own belief that we are incapable of change.
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Who could disagree with this?
We change ourselves at the same time we change the world. These things are connected, not opposed.
That is exactly Right!!!!!!!!! We change ourselves as we change the world, otherwise, in the end, we change nothing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo&feature=related
Since there is no reply link to the comment on the bottom of the page by our troll friend Thrsymaque, I will answer his insinuation here. I have nothing whatsoever against gay people. You chose to take that comment "gay banter" as reffering to gay people and doing so negatively, because that's all you ever do, try to find some way of poisoning reasoned debate , and bringing it down to your own level. This troll is a real snake folks, my advise, don't even respond.
Wow, a post with overwhelmingly positive & supportive comments! Bump
Thanks, love.
Gypsyking.....Reagan's laws of political thought.............The First Reagan Law of Politics: The meanest, lyingest, smoothest, SOB always wins........................................The Second Reagan Law of Politics: The candidate that is put on the defensive always loses--attack, attack, attack....................................The Third Reagan Law of Politics: In the voting booth, the more conservative minds will vote their prejudices over their pocketbooks--always.............................The Fourth Reagan Law of Politics: Unsophisticated people in frivolous occupations can have great appeal to unsophisticated, frivolous people. .....................Law number 3 & 4 is what got the uniformed ignorant conservatives to vote Reagan.......If you look at the educational demographics for the red states you will find low education levels, low wage jobs, rural and generally poor population.
Yes, sadly enough, I think everything you say here is true.
Completely in accordance with what you wrote. It is also good for Europe! Here are 2 very efficient techniques to help the work on "ourselves" and through that, the others as well:
1) HO'OPONOPONO: http://www.ho-oponopono.org/
2) EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) : http://www.emofree.com/
Be well!
Now THAT is brainwash.
Here is a quote from the film Network - "I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"
A depression looks like this: http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdomesticproduct/ig/Photos-of-Great-Depression/
Poverty looks like this: http://thefreeman.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/poverty_children.png
America looks like this: http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/11-15-black-friday/9035135-1-eng-US/11-15-black-friday_full_600.jpg
The more you guys believe in a depression and give up, the more likely there actually will be one. At which point, you will crap you pants and wish that you had tried hard to help prevent it. (Or you'll blame anyone who still has money).
Have you ever been to the places where the poor people live? I am thinking you live in a gated community, isolated as much as possible from the way the world really is.
Take a ride through the "bad part of town" and look to see where society will end up soon if things don't begin to change.
By the way, the more you deny the evidence that we are running out of basic supplies for the number of people that inhabit this world the more surprised you will be when the cascade begins to happen.
Like Jamaica or Nicaragua? yes, very recently. I've actually spent time with many homeless people and drug addicts. I once went with a drug dealer around town, just to see who he talks to and what he does as business.
Yes, there is a bad part of town. But people nickle-and-dime in a depression. Not just the homeless. They don't wait in line for TV's. Because there aren't any TV's. Nothing will be shipped in during a depression. Food will be locally grown, but farmers will not be paid for it.
But I don't think that will happen, unless the US currency just ceases to exist. I think they may change the standard, or just default on their loans, before we hit a depression.
The economy is still bad, there is still high unemployment. But this is not a depression. When it turns into a depression, you will know.
There is a documentary sort of film called "Prophets of Doom" on You tube that you can watch. These guys aren't fringe elements in our society; they are experts in their fields.
We are on the brink and to deny it is like denying you need air to breathe. When countries begin to use other currencies besides the US dollar then the proverbial shit will hit the fan. Why do you think so many companies are looking for markets outside the USA? It isn't just a profit seeking motive it is also a corporate survival motive because they can see the writing on the wall.
Take the time to watch this film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8gi53kq4vzY
Worth the time to watch this film.
I 100% agree with water and the environment. http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/tx-drought.html
Just to highlight... we won't run out of oil any time soon. And if we do, we already have the technology available, we just don't have the demand. But look: http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=f54f40ca-3caf-43ad-aee1-c300ab24830e
Canada has a ton of oil. This isn't the oil sands, it's lightsweet crude, high quality oil. Bucket loads of it. They just don't tap it much, or publish it much.
Hold on hold on.... This isn't the "end". Every generation thinks it's the end of times. Eventually, the Sun will burn out and the world will stop spinning. There was countless movies in the 80's about the end, and the 70's, and 60's and 50's. And earlier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Legend_(novel) Or like this guy: http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/155786/harold-camping-is-totally-embarrassed-the-world-didnt-end/
He's been going for years.
There is certainly a new trend is fear mongering, but it's not the end. Scaring people about their Government with conspiracies is certainly not helping though.
Well, people shouldn't grab credit cards and bad loans to try and Boost this economy! I keep telling people if they start voting with their dollars, they will get faster results. As long as they keep working two jobs and buying the newest and most advertised electronic import, the rich will keep selling it to them. If the internet changes in ways you don't like, go back to dial-up, cut your package! As long as people are sold on New cars, tapes, movies, tablets, smart phones what needs to change? Plenty of money to be made and tip the scales of inequality further. A protest is nice, well and good, but the bottom-line is what counts. You won't strong arm politicians and government into changing but if if your ISP sees a drop and revenue someone in this crooked system may get bought off, wow change! Based on peoples reactions and losses on Wallstreet, things can get changed, they can be wrong and they can be made to back up or back off or change their plans.
No, they shouldn't and I agree with that 100%. I believe a major cause of the recession is from over spending, not from unpayment. People pay more in interest each month than they do for their mortgage, or the food on their plate.
I think that will ultimately be the result of this recession. It will be more difficult to get a loan or a credit card. Nations, as well, will need to be far more accountable for their spending habits, instead of pissing away a fortune on healthcare with no plan of action to increase the taxes.
Someone posted a way to do a progressive tax that would lower a lot of people's taxes and still be lower for the wealthy than pre Reagan taxes were for them. It would just be an end to loopholes and stuff and a fairer way of doing it. It looked awesome, it was simple but so amazing I find it hard to believe the numbers could actually be real. I think OWS really has to turn itself into a consumer powered revolt. I think it needs to be a lifestyle everyone can participate in and feel good about. You don't get locked up because you didn't buy an Iphone. What I want to see changed for people is the privatization of basic services. I'd like people and vets to also be put to work at union wages running my phone company, my trash service, my local hospital, the prison I could wind up in, electric companies, and I want non-profit gas stations everyone can get gas at without billions of dollars being made off it all. These gravy train industries that take advantage of a buy-able government and steal all their profits from the people without providing real choices or innovations need to be replaced, or capped and regulated to death. And Seed Banks, Monsanto needs to be busted. Every single dime they have made has just been stolen from the people, these are services our government had an obligation to provide and protect its people from abuse and gouging. If we could do that, people could work for less and buy their own food, if we don't it'll just be a cycle of raise minimum wage, watch basic services profits(and I said PROFITS not just EARNINGS) increase and your buying power decrease and leave nothing in the rest of the market.
Right to the point. It really is true that the only way we will solve this is through something like sheer moral stubornness, a simple unwillingness to go along with what is evil, to find ways of subverting what we know is evil, and of convincing others it is evil so that they won't go along either. At some point a kind of "citical mass" is created and things actually start to change. It is, in a way, the only power we have because it is the only power that lasts or matters at this late stage in the human story. Upon this point we shall either stand or fall.
Over the next few years the world community will be challenged with cataclysmic financial as well as climatic problems. Our moral fiber as a nation will be tested to its limits. If we succumb to the temptation of applying conventional principles of morality to these crises, our nation will eventually fall into the same abyss of obscurity as did the Roman empire. When our choices are directed by compassion the winds of change cannot weaken our moral fiber.
That's right, the only thing that can save us, and eventually even improve the world is inner-change. I just had some guy call this "new-age" thinking, when some understanding of this dates back at least 2,500 years. So far, we have just refused to listen.
It’s a bit mystifying, at least to me, that we point a finger at the 1% and shout ‘greed’ when the entire country is based on consumerism which is nothing more than a politically correct way of saying ‘gluttony’. It seems that Americans do not want to know about the slave labor that is required to feed that gluttony.
Well, I think the comparison is valid only to a point. The 1%, in exerting their collosal appetite for greed and power are willing to trample down whole peoples and generations; while most of us only put on a few extra pounds.
I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, or that we all shouldn't examine our lives and conciences for whatever way to improve our understanding of the world and our relationship to it, and even more importantly, the question of what truely gives life it's meaning. That was, put very crudely, my point. Yet I think it's a question of degree, and that we really do have not only the right, but the obligation to challange an evil and wreakless usurpation of our planet by an incrediblly small minority of its inhabitants.
America will perish because, very soon, the countries of the world will have to co-operate and this is something Americans cannot do and will not do. They will be unable to accept that they are no longer #1 and must act in harmony and on an equal plane with other countries. At its core, American needs to perceive itself as #1. It's the most important defining element of America. When this perception needs to be shelved for true co-operation between nations, America will be no more.
no-no.
what you have outlined is repelican policy, ideology, and dogma; hence, in large measure, the reason for their own implosion . . .
We can cooperate very well with our neighbors, given the opportunity and the perception that we are all in this together.
The proof is in the pudding. I'll need some extraordinary evidence before I believe your extraordinary claims.
BTW - Your President came to the small island I live on last week. They brought a battleship from Guam for protection. Americans are so over the top!
I guess WWII isn't sufficient evidence?
And you know, symbolic forms of communication - especially when they occur between nations - can be very expensive. That is what happens when words cease their meaning - we lift high our symbols.
I wonder how many barrels of oil that consumed?
Did you get an autograph?
WWII is alright I guess, but it's no where near extraordinary evidence. You arrived a few years late at the party and only really joined when you were attacked directly by the Japanese. You dropped two atomic bombs on highly populated civilian areas, when dropping them on small unpopulated Japanese islands would have served as a proper warning. And, that was a long time ago. Almost 100 years in the past. The last time I checked, you went into Iraq without the approbation of the other countries in NATO. If you can't agree with a few countries, how can you possibly agree with many? Nah, US has demonstrated again and again that it's not a team player.
well yeah . . .
I wasn't even born until like 15 years later . . . .
of course I was late to that party . . . .
I'm sorry to hear you're already preparing to become a senior. May your soul be blessed and may your health remain fierce in old age.
yeah-ya
never mind all that
lets just focus
focus
Now
The decline and fall of the repelican party . . .
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Why are you Americans obsessed with Zionism?
the biggest problem i had with Zionism was the hypocrisy of their methods. so maybe it is the man in the mirror that ruffles their feathers.
Who knows. I'm just surprised there are so many anti-semites in America. I had no idea. Every tenth post on this forum seems to be about some Jewish conspiracy. The forums I use in my country aren't like this. Damn Americans! You guys are always living in fear. Oh no! Look... it's a Reptilian Overlord controlling the government and planning 9/11 attacks on its own citizens! Wait... you're not a shape-shifting Reptilian Overlord are you? Oh no.. Iv'e said too much already.
i have heard rumors that there is a Christian faction here in the 'States that believes the Messiah will only come once the world descends on Israel. self fulfilling prophesy if you ask me.
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I'm well aware of that, but every time someone talks about Zionism they end up talking about Jews.
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..aaaand back to conspiracies.
I think the user name badconduct disqualifies you from being taken seriously on this thread.
I think believing in something that has absolutely no evidence, and trying to inject that belief into a movement based on actual events should be carried over to a different forum for discussion. I think everything is going to be the exact same in 10 years as it is now. There will be poor people, there will be rich people, there will be war and there will be both good and bad news.
If you don't believe that anything can change than why are you here in the first place?
To sell T-shirts: http://www.zazzle.ca/i_am_peaceful_tshirt-235382745941464669
And to point out flaws in some of the logic people seem to live by. Some of the ideas I see on here are painful to read, hurtful to others and completely illogical.
People think they can simply change the entire planet, by claiming some kind of pseudo-religious belief. We are just going to hold hands and make everything work out. I think if you try to apply that logic, you will find out how quickly people are going to take advantage of you.
The problem is that the western way of life is dying out, and immigration is having some major impacts on our customs. You can't go to Saudi Arabia and demand your Christian wife can go without a Hijab, but when they come to the West, we can't pass laws that stop them. Everyone thinks there is some kind of super-white man Government ruling the banks and all media, but it's the opposite. The media isn't censored by our Government, foreign governments are putting pressure on them not to report certain things, otherwise they'll cut ties, funding or money. The West is being bullied around by smaller nations, forcing us to spend money on "aid" while they fight wars, and commit genocide. They're robbing us blind with ridiculous prices and interest rates.
I'm not racist, don't get me wrong. But I have no interest in a Muslim Brotherhood of Canada running for the next election. And I have no interest in seeing the Chinese Communist Party telling Americans that they will bring jobs back if you elect them in.
This is the growing pains of Globalization, it has nothing to do with JFK or 9/11. It's a clash of cultures, and we are losing.
Sources: Saudi tells Canada to pull ethical oil ad: http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/Oil/6513299 China changes villain in Red Dawn from China to North Korea: http://screenrant.com/red-dawn-villains-china-north-korea-schrad-106177
This is all merely self-rationalization, with no logical chain of reason behind it at all, and yet you seem to be lamenting the loss of reason at the same time. I don't know what you mean by hurtful, but it clashes with your subsequent calim about simply applying logic. You try to advance logic, while denying the existance of the human spirit, deriding it as psudo-religious belief, after claiming unspecified things on this forum are "hurtful." Does any of this make sense? Then you try to thrust the blame for everything on foreigners, while championing globalism. Wow, what can be said about all of this? It seems to me you are really just coming from a very self-focused point of refference.
I don't "blame" foreigners for wanting to change our culture, just as much as I don't blame the West for wanting to change foreign culture. It's just a necessarily phase. I also don't recommend attacking other cultures, as it is not a very western thing to do. I do recommend that we do as we please, regardless of what Saudi Arabia or China thinks, and as a result, allow them to say or publish whatever they deem fit without any threat of sanctions. I also believe we should be learning other languages, such as standard Arabic or Mandarin Chinese in order to compete on an international level.
What I am saying, is that I prefer to work 9 to 5, get paid in Salary, have a Mortgage, and do all those other Western activities, and I am willing to stand up for that right. People are just wasting their time. They don't try to better themselves, by spending their spare time in a library (or the internet) reading, or trying to learn something new or meeting and talking to new people. We are too afraid to interact with each other, too afraid to ask a homeless man why he's homeless, and too afraid to turn off the news and try to make a difference in our community.
We all want something. We aren't willing to do anything extra for it, we just want the bare minimum pay for the bare minimum work. You can't fix the system from the outside, it's too complex. You have to pick a small part of it, and go try to do as much as you can. By the time you reach the point where you can make a change, you will probably understand more about why things are a certain way, and have been for a hundred years.
But than we have this other problem; a lot of people here seem to think that our way of life is somehow wrong and a ploy to keep us distracted from...? I have no idea what from. I think being distracted is a choice.
We don't live in a political cold war, like the 20th century. This is a cultural and racial cold war. If people just needed to get together and sort their problems out, than the UN would be a success. But it's not. Everyone wants more, and no one wants less.
I do deny the existence of human spirit. I could believe in a Universal rhythmic harmony , that beats like a drum.I fully accept the logic of a high percentage of predetermined behaviour based on genetics. Eventually, the species should blend together and iron out any racial and cultural tensions. But that's not going to happen today, so stop blaming your culture for all the world's problems.
Well, that was a sincere explanation of your beliefs, and I respect that. There are areas where we disagree, but they would probably take a long face to face talk to come to some mutual understanding. After reading this I retract my charge of being merely self-focused. Clearly you have given real thought to these issues. I guess we just have come to different conclusions. Anyway, thanks for taking the time for this reply. Of one thing I feel certain; there is such a thing as the human spirit. Best of luck to you.
What does 'human spirit' even mean. It isn't properly defined. It means nothing.
If you don't know I'm afraid I can't tell you. It might help to go out into nature for a long while, take your partner if you have one, and contemplate there in the hopes of recognizing something holy.
You can't tell me because you do not know. You talk of the soul as if it had one clear definition. Plato hadn't finished defining the soul, and already, his student Aristotle penned his own definition. Thomas Aquinas and Kierkegaard, both priests, wrote their own definitions for the soul. René Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Derrida, Foucault all had their own definitions. What major philosopher hasn't discussed the soul? And you? Not even capable of writing a simple sentence on it, or telling us which philosopher's definition you favor? And you want us to believe you have a special relationship with your soul you can't even begin to define?
You ask me to find a partner and head towards nature to find my soul; my human spirit? For what? You want us to engage in savage sex on a slanted rock which dips our feet in the rising tide and raises our heads near the falling sun? Then what? Our souls will magically appear before us and we will become immortal? Can you even begin to comprehend the naïvety of your thought?
Do you think I am a cold machine because I do not indulge in religious soul searching - that I do not have your preferred position - your knowledge of truth and your great depth - a depth you cannot even begin to define?
I have walked on the brink of the profound. I have reached heights you cannot even fantom. I have touched the beautiful, and I have seen the colors of 'heaven'. I have done this through the magic of a discipline without a soul; science. My mind has dreamt of the impossible, it has felt the deep complexity of the natural world and has been left astounded as a result. And what of the arts? Mozart, Bach, Poe, Boulez, Joyce, Matthew Barney, Mark Ryden, Stravinsky, ... have all brought me closer to 'heaven' then your little chapel in the hills ever will.
Your words mean nothing; they are not properly defined. And, herein lies the beauty for definition is the end of complexity. You cannot pin down the profound. You cannot tame the Gods even with the finest nectars and ambrosias. There is no book, no Bible, that can explain the magic of our world.
A GypsyKing indeed, but a GypsyKing without a gypsy's heart.
Ah, the snake suddenly reveal itself - not as the cynical spouter of one liners used to belittle every opponent, but as an educated - probably very educated - man, which makes your absolute cynicism all the more repugnant. A lot of us didn't recieve Ivy League educations, and you think that fact makes you superior - but an Ivy League education can't give you those things you can't "define," - those things you can't put under your stupid microscope and dissect, like a soul, or a heart. It is people like you who represent the worst kind of evil, the cold, dispassionate evil of the self-interested, psycopathic, psudo-scientific mind. Such people, able to self-justify anything in the name of cold rationalism, with their ability to quote Kant, or Kierkegaard, or scripture were just the kind of devils that made up the Third Reich. In the end all your education, and all your words serve just one end, your own self-interest, because they recognize nothing higher than that, and then pat yourselves on the back for having discovered some "profound truth!"
I hope the Ive League is turning out at least a few real human beings in the process. If not than it's existance has devolved into a tragedy.
And Imagine a man like you having a word to say about anyone's heart, much less the heart of a Gypsy! Just crawl back in the pit you slimed out of.
A romantic emotional long winded rant with a reductio ad hitlerum to boot! What a soul you have; one that is capable of such an untamed attack of ad hominem and assumptions. Vile! Bravissimo!
I do not have an Ivy League education my dear. My scarce funds would not have permitted such a lavish extravaganza. No, I went to a very ordinary university and obtained a very ordinary masters degree in classical music. The rest was learned by spending countless hours hunched back over my study enthralling myself with such likes as Kafka. You are Kafkaesque aren't you?
I like your vile tongue! It spits fire and grace like the most powerful of canons. Hmmm... How I would like to take you on that slanted rock and wash your feet in the tide and our minds in the rays of the falling sun!
We need a direct democracy vote about that. Ya never know!!
I need to run. Busy hockey day.
I'm gonna mess up this thread more, but rather than anarchy, I was thinking more along the lines of you going from troll and mole, to evil genius, to Mr. Popularity, to the new leader of OWS. lol
I'm far from being popular around here. Lol!
Oh yea - I forgot. Wasn't it Tulczak (sp?) that said you were a troll. So it MUST be true!
I wouldn't call it troll really. Cruel and unusual maybe. Teeny bit cruel to burst peoples bubbles about the existance of God. Is that REALLY necessary?? And unusual in the sense of - you are out of the ordinary.
I know its fun for you - so carry on! I just thought I'd pop in for a quick hello. Just to make sure its still anarchy around here.
Oh yeah. Anarchy is still spreading its wings. Soon, we might see it fly.
lol I'm not sure - but I don't think Gypsy likes you much. I think it's all the big words. Some people don't know what wiktionary is. : )
Nah, I'm being a little evil tonight. It's late. Just poking people around. Having fun. A tad of trolling here and there. GypsyKing has a right to be a little mad. I pushed it.
Enough of this gay banter! It's all just a big distraction from the point of my post - thought that would slip by me, did you? I'm not going to waste anymore breath on a snake, and I'd advise others to do likewise!
I'm sorry for the distraction my dear, and sorrier that you have a problematic relation with homosexuals. Banter cannot be gay, only people can. And, there really isn't anything wrong with that. Homosexuals are real people who are part of our society. We should respect them. They are not like the invisible sky daddy; unproven to be.
You've been entertained by Thrasymaque the sophist. Perhaps you will enjoy my character Glaucon a tad more. He is much less snake-like. He was Plato's brother after all. I should have cast my usual warning. I print it here. I am truly sorry it came a little late. I do hope your Christian soul is able to forgive, and not only able to spur out emotional erratic rants that compare people to Hilter's men.
WARNING: On this site, I have been called a troll, a psyops capable of mind infiltration, a government mole, and a zionist-sock-puppet. Read my opinions at your own risk.
Please, stop with the new-age nonsense. Get a proper education and learn to distinguish between science and conspiracy theories and you'll already be a big step ahead. Stay away from pseudo-scientific new-age babble-drivel. It's not the answer.
you completely missed the message of his post. please try again
this is no new-age nonsense! Learn about your innerself and you will discover what you are really! Education is important as well, but educators must try to be aware of real life! Be well