Forum Post: "We are the 99%" is utter BULLSHIT
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 10:21 a.m. EST by jalan
(108)
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You are a 0.1% fringe group. You represent NO ONE except those joining your cause. Your claim to represent "the 99%" is utter bullshit. By the way geniuses, the top 1% is income down at $380,354. That is a long way from "wall street."
Even if this 1/99 BS is true...all the more reason to strive to be in that 1%
You had better re-check your facts. There has been a massive "wealth redistribution" that has gone on for the last 30 years. The top 1% now control 42% of all of the nation's wealth and the top 10% now control 70% of our entire nation's wealth. The bottom 50% control a mere 2% of all of our nation's wealth.
The middle class is the economic engine of our economy. The middle class spends their wealth on goods/services and the corporations make a profit from the spending. Corporations have redistributed the middle class wealth by paying the vast majority of their profits all out to the executives and shareholders.
Middle class wages have stagnated for 30 years while executive wages have gone up 256% in since 1980. Even last year executive compensation went up another 11%. All of our nation's wealth has been redistributed into the hands of the few.
How did this happen right under our noses? The middle class was roped into replacing wages with easy credit/loans. So instead of paying people living wages, corporations fooled us into thinking we were doing well and could afford things by giving us easy credit instead of wages. Instead of having wages to buy t.v.'s, furniture, etc. we were given easy loans. So the middle class became a debtor class.
There used to be a tax disincentive to paying out all of corporate profits at the top because in the 1950's income was taxed at 90% over a certain amount money and now that tax disincentive has disappeared. In 1950's the highest marginal tax rate was 90%. In 1960-1970's it was 70%. In 1980's it dropped to 49%. In 1990's dropped to 39%. Under George Bush it dropped to a mere 36%. We have had over 30 years of massive tax cuts for the wealthy.
There is now no tax disincentive to paying out all of the corporate wealth at the top. And there is no employee bargaining power because now less than 12% of all of our jobs are unionized. Corporate profits are at an all time high, healthcare company profits are at an all time high, and oil profits are at an all time high. We have a profit-taking crisis at the expense of the people that no politician will doing anything about. Healthcare and oil companies have enjoyed a decade of record profits while we have had a decade of massive premiums for little coverage and a decade of outrageous gas prices.
The problems are: 1) deregulation of the banks by the Republican-controlled congress in 1999; 2) hedge funds are exempt from regulation; 3) tax system no longer has a disincentive against paying outrageous executive salaries (highest marginal tax rate has dropped from 90% to 36%); 4) commodities market is exempt from regulation (Republican-controlled Congress exempted it in the Commodities Future Modernization act of 2000); 5) the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can spend unlimited funds in campaign elections (thus politicians on both sides favor the wealthy/corporations) and 6) the rise of corporate/billionaire propaganda media "news." Because of the need to raise massive sums in politics today, we no longer have a party that represents the people. The Democrats have to chase the corporate and big money donors too.
What can we do about this: 1) re-instate Glass-Steagall Act regulating the banks; 2) regulate hedge funds and the commodities market (because the commodities market is not regulated speculation has caused prices for commodities to go through the roof); 3) get rid of the money in politics (have federally funded elections with clear limits on spending and no outside groups allowed to have ads); 4) get rid of 1980's laws stating that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits; and 5) regulate "news" channels and newspapers (no more "slanted opinion news" masquerading as hard news) and reinstitute the fairness doctrine across all news outlets to ensure that both sides get equal time.
Corporations should have duties to society and to their workers too. They should have to balance their duties to maximize shareholder profits against their reinstated duties to their employees and to society. The laws saying that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits have led to the destruction of long-term business plans and care for their workers and have created short-term profit monsters at the expense of workers and society.
You should move to North Korea you will love it
This is a serious problem and should not be dismissed so freely. This is not a partisan issue this is the truth.
I do not think 1950's America was either Socialist or Communist. Keep believing the myth that there is class mobility in this country and that "self-made" people can achieve unlimited wealth. Studies show that class mobility is at its lowest in history. Why don't you check out the statistics below and tell me what you think?
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#the-gap-between-the-top-1-and-everyone-else-hasnt-been-this-bad-since-the-roaring-twenties-1
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#the-last-two-decades-were-greatif-you-were-a-ceo-or-owner-not-if-you-were-anyone-else-5
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#and-savings-rates-are-sinking-7
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#despite-the-myth-of-social-mobility-poor-americans-have-a-slim-chance-of-rising-to-the-upper-middle-class-8
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#meanwhile-income-tax-is-getting-lower-and-lower-for-the-rich-10
If you were the president of a start up corporation would you still hold these ideals?
Absolutely. These are not "ideas," these are the current reality. Do you want a middle class, the economic engine of our nation, to exist to buy your start-up's goods or services? You either have to give the middle class a living wage or easy credit. They decided against a living wage and opted to keep the country humming with easy credit, but the middle class can only take on so much debt before it starts to fall apart and easy credit has dried up, hence the recession.
Troll is angry!
love is all we need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WBHic2Ea_8
We/They are in fact the 99% as you will see in the coming weeks.
It's obvious that rational logic and intelligent debate does not work on the majority of uneducated Republican sympathizers...
I for one, therefore, would like to offer up a different approach...
Mr. "jalan"
Since you don't believe in reason and logic, would you meet me next Saturday (10-15-11) at Battery Park Manhattan to settle our difference with violent physical confrontation?
I propose neither party bring weapons of any type -- we will just settle this with our own bare hands...
If you insist on weapons, please indicate your weapon of choice, and I will try to accommodate...
Please respond, as I am anxious to settle our differences in the only way that makes sense with your sad ilk....
Respectfully ithinkergoiam
You guys want to know what we need?
1.) Smaller Central Government
2.) Larger state and local Governments
say over the laws in each state. When government and law is controlled more locally, it is easier to elect someone who actually represents your views. It's also easier to hold that person accountable
3.) repeal of the PATRIOT ACT and Looser Gun laws
about our constitutional rights. By allowing the government into your computer for any time, into your home at any time, we are setting ourselves up for what is already becoming a tyrannical power in the united states. Yes, in theory it may do good to stop"terrorism" but at the cost of our own freedom. (and its already been used against people that decent from the status quo(hactivists)) In addition to this, having to register our weapons through the government lets the government know EXACTLY who has weapons. In our constitution, if you want to overthrow the government, you have the RIGHT. the Government should be afraid of its people, not the other way around.
4.) End the Federal Reserve +REGULATE WALL STREET.
IF you haven't seen the OSCAR WINNING 2010 Documentary : INSIDE JOB about wall street and our government, i suggest you do as soon as possible. (available by torrents or iTunes)
This bulletin needs no explanation.
5.) End the wars/ end the 900 military bases we have. Right now the US is more vulnerable to a foreign attack than ever. we have THOUSANDS of troops stretched out in over 900 foreign military bases. These UNCONSTITUTIONAL WARS ( not approved by congress) are yet ANOTHER EXAMPLE of how our Constitutional rights are being TRAMPLED ON. Our Polititons have way too many special interests, and that is why power needs to be taken away from the central government. We start these wars so that we manufacture weapons, and the people in our government own stock in those military companies. Its Deep and widespread corruption. And in addition, they believe that by fighting wars, it will stimulate our economy (ie:WWII) When in fact, it wasn't until AFTER WWII (1950's) that we began to be prosperous, when we had all our troops home, and there was a lot more people, with a lot more money to spend in the US. BRING OUR TROUPS HOME. There here to DEFEND THER COUNTRY, not imperialize others.
6.) Fair tax Either a FAIR TAX system, or equal percentages THROUGHOUT America.
THIS is what Occupy wall street is about DONT let the media tell you other wise
You aren't paying attention. The trajectory of everything is getting bad. Millions more children now live below the poverty line. Education system tanking. Infrastructure built by our grandparents is falling apart because Tea Baggers are too selfish to fix it for the next generation. Health care is tanking for everyone but the rich. Retirement prospects are tanking for everyone but the rich. Wealth of the top 1% has skyrocketed while income of the rest of us is either flatlined or declining. Middle Class is shrinking.
We've spent trillions and trillions of dollars on the 'Great Society' and 'War on Poverty' and what you're describing is what we got for those dollars. We're sick of throwing money down a rat hole. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the way towards a successful and prosperous society. The last 50 years proves that quite well.
I am puzzled by the 99%. Not rich, and while I agree with some of their issues, I don't with quite a few others. So don't lump me in based on income.
"When life begins we are tender and weak When life ends we are stiff and rigid All things, including the grass and trees, are soft and pliable in life dry and brittle in death So the soft and supple are the companions of life While the stiff and unyielding are the companions of death An army that cannot yield will be defeated A tree that cannot bend will crack in the wind Thus by Nature's own decree the hard and strong are defeated while the soft and gentle are triumphant" - Lao Tzu
LOL! the opposition is clueless wow! Thinking like good slaves.
Drones, they're all drones.
The elderly at taking more in benefits then they ever paid in. Medicare and Social Security should be take away from them and given to the youth! The youth can do something with that money - free college, free cars and homes. The elderly are a drag on society! We need to have the nerve to do what our forebears of the movement did. Mao, Stalin, Lenin - we have to kill the elderly, the sick, the weak, the unborn. It worked for them, and we need to continue on. Have some nerve people
what are u taking a stand against? The fact that you made poor choices and ran up a bunch of debt, and now you expect someone else to help you with your debt? Get out!
Take a stand against what? I have student loans - I agreed to them and I am paying them off. I have a mortgage - I want a place for my family to live and I am paying for that. I have 2 kids and a wife and you people are messing with a system that has pulled more people out of poverty than any other system in the history of the world. You want to steal from people. Plain and simple, using the strong arm of the government. You are criminals who want me to pay for your bullshit. FUCK YOU!
You are the 99% too. If you don't have the stones to take a stand, get out of the way and let those that are doing it FOR you get on with it.
You wish. You also were probably pleased when the Tea Party was media darling and they had a 24/7 spotlight for their attempts to lower your taxes.
Your comment that the top 1% is "only" making $380,000 per year is amazingly jaded. When exactly DID you lose touch with reality?
I think this movement is very content to represent "only" those joining its cause because as it turns out, this is a LOT of people. Wake up.
Percentages are always skewed in favor of the presenters point. The point is not the representation as we are all one in the same so long as we subscribe to be bound by the nations laws. While you hate the movement herein I suggest you look at a way to contribute your intelligence to mold it into what it can be. A movement to bring about the necessary hard decisions of our time. End the federal reserve, stop the wars and continue with our lives unencumbered by tyranny.
By the way the last two posts were mine and not river-woman. I'm less tolerant of stupid ignorant fox news watching idiots
You supporters of corporate slavery should move to Idaho. You would not even be noticed as retarded because the whole state is a dumb as you
I don't mind being a corporate slave. Over the past 32 years my masters have paid me well and I have a nice lifestyle because of it. Were it not for the corporate slave, I can't imagine where I would find someone willing to pay me fairly for the work I do.
And I'm a free slave as well. When I find another master willing to pay me more or give me better benefits, I can cut the chains and move on, no hard feelings.
BTW, the word "retarded" is no longer politically correct. Get with the program.
You are not a slave to the corporation you work for. We are all slaves to the owners of the federal reserve. The wonderful life you lead now is truly well earned I am sure. However, If you have not studied your history and you have not listened to the wise men who have done the math, then you will be sorely surprised soon. This is your gentle wake up nudge. You only get a couple before we leave you sleeping and forgotten.
Yes, the Federal reserve is a threat to our way of life. Something has to be done about the FED.
Hear Hear!!! I am with you schnitzlefritz!
piss off
LOL! There's a really mature and intelligent response.
Hey NBC,CBS,ABC,MSN,and CNN! oh ya you too FUX news! Where are you? Got your heads under the desk, down there on Wall street? Wipe off your chins and join the human race!
Agreed!
No major media coverage today? What do the corporate media whores fear? CHANGE! Too bad it's coming anyway! Fmm all!
No major media coverage today? What do the corporate media whores fear? CHANGE! Too bad it's coming anyway! Fmm all!
Or maybe it is simply a tired story at this point? There is a lot of football on today and 99% of Americans might have better things to do. Make that 98%. The top 1% are busy scheming their next scam on the American people and the other 1% are wondering how to complain about it.
When have you ever witnessed ANYTHING like this before in this country? You havent'! Now, have you read any history? My suggestion is try to have a heart and an open mind instead of your your prejudiced, confused and spoiled opinions. You may even find yourself living in a better world!
Anything like this? You act of if this is some sort of massive, never seen before protest? According to New York media the crowd size is estimated at 10,000 in Manhattan. That is nothing. We've seen crowds 10 times to 100 times that for many protests in our lifetime: Tea Party, Million Man March, several sports team victory parades are estimated at over 1M people, New York Times Square on New Years Eve, Glenn Beck's rally, Obamacare protests, etc. This is small by any measure. What is NOT small is the media coverage.
Actually, to cite your own examples: First The Tea Party - this began with very small demonstrations, here and there and FOX news immediately started covering it making it much bigger that it actually was. And it was massively funded by Far Right groups. It did not come from people first - it came because of the MEDIA coverage and huge funding by Right- Wing groups like the Koch Brothers. The Million Man March was a single, focused event, highly organized and mobilized by many left wing groups, leaders, etc. It lasted one day and had little effect though the numbers were huge. No, I appreciate the conversation here very much, but honestly I don't see any comparison between OWS and any of the examples you've given.
Arm yourself with factual information. Knowledge is power!
Wumao
So where do Steve Jobs and Wozniak fit in on this model? What about Jack Dorsey and Biz Stone? Mark Zuckerburg? Herman Cain? Mark Cuban? et al... Were they given an unfair advantage? How about Trey Anastasio and his 65 million dollar net worth? and we can go on and on and on.. That is why a lot of this 1 percent 99 percent makes about as much sense as a tutu on a steer
The sense of entitlement among the protesters is sickening, try spending some time outside of the US and see what its really like to be abused by government. You obviously have no idea how fortunate you are to be born in america. Furthermore, get this through your heads you do not represent 99% percent of americans, even more so how do you think holding the economy hostage could ever make the situation any better? You people are just as selfish as those you seem to hate, quit claiming to represent me. Oh yeah, and if you want to be taken seriously, take a shower, quit the drum circle shit (this isn't bonnaroo) and come up a coherent goal, with concrete solutions instead of bitching and moaning. Funny thing, people talk about social equality but i have not even once heard any of you suggest a flat tax rate, no you just feel that you deserve other people's money.
The OWS is not against corporations or successful companies. We are against corporate ownership of the government and the screwing of the people by way of that. A lot of people are trying to present the OWS as a communist movement or a union movement. The OWS is not that. Hopefully it will not lose sight of its original goal and become one of those.
http://techdailydose.nationaljournal.com/2011/01/when-it-comes-lobbying-donatio.php
uh huh
You are right. however, End the Fed mmmkay.. Thats all i am asking. End the fed so we can have more freedom to produce great companies, innovations and men like you mentioned.
Not ready to move away from FRB right yet my friend. But I will gladly hear out your alternative.
There is no alternative. The FED is a train wreck from the get go, the country was bankrupt only 25 years after inception. The framers of our constitution warned us repeatedly against this form of money management and our dollar has suffered great loss of value because of it. The congress has no choice but to continually borrow money to pay the interest, which under the FED system will never be paid. It is mathematically impossible. The FED owns us until they are abolished. http://www.scionofzion.com/federalreserve.htm
not a fan of the site. I fall on the side of Callahan sorry
he isn't that funny, Ill go with Jefferson and Washington. Good luck.
Turn this movement into a "Voter Bloc". Try to get it to go viral through You Tube. Perhaps using a "flash mob" approach. You need to fight Wall Street/Bankers greed through the voting process. Vote out every politician who stands for the greedy entities!
I'm just an Independent voter. I think you need to have a chosen leader, a very strong measured person (such as Jon Stewart from The Daily Show) who can articulate your grievances and fight for you/us at rallies. Then, you need a name for your movement, as did the Tea Party who have been fairly successful. You can then mobilize voters, via social networks or TV, to vote against any politician who thinks the banks and Wall Street aren't greedy and controlling our wealth! If you don't do these things, your movement will likely fritter out. I know a good social movement when I see one. I'm 74 yrs old and have seen some of the best marches for justice. Good Luck!
You missed the message.
the only thing that matters right now is CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, unless you get the big money out of politics, no change whatsoever will occur, this should be the focus of the protests, we need to have honest politicians that work for the public before any thing else can get done, campaign finance reform (ending corporate personhood, kicking the lobbyists out of the Washington) is the perfect starting point. It really is a no brainer that this should be the one thing we can all agree on. Because unless we do this, all those other demands that people have will never be addressed, not in a millions years.
shee, you might get yell at by the so-called intellectual group. they claimed to be the 99%...hell no. I am nowhere near the 1% but I am very comfortable and working in my field that helps the community. What do these "99%" ever accomplished?
Does seem like more "we participated, where's our trophy" bullshit
Jalan must support the continuation of lobbyists buying the votes of his "representation" in Washington & his state. Lobbying laws must be completely changed & strictly enforced. That is our #1 problem. And elections should not be allowed to collect & spend obscene amounts of money. You'll never get a one of the current office holders to pass that legislation. Jalan has obviously had a rather cushy & uneventful life.
I hate lobbying and I hate the influence of money in politics. But I am smart enough to be able to focus that anger on the singular place it belongs: Congress. Congress creates that laws that permits this influence. There is no one to blame but them. OWS is misguided in it's target and letting Congress off the hook.
We agree completely! Now wasn't that easy? Let's ALL work with that one objective in mind. You're right that this movement is confused, but I think most of the anger from the occupiers boils down to the money in politics and they just don't know how to state that anger. If you don't agree with OWS let's start a movement right her, right now to make this the forefront issue to our politicians. Let's get people running for office next time and the times after that to run on the platform of limiting lobbying severely - my opinion on particular issues should count to my representative as much, if not more, than the opinions of the most powerful who promise huge contributions to election coffers. I'm going to check into the book "Republic, Lost" that addresses these issues. The megaphone is there on Wall Street, it just needs to state the issue correctly. Sure, there are some nut cases involved in the movement, just like any movement attracts ,but there are also a whole lot of folks there & around the country who would support the changes we're talking about & drop some of the silliness arising in all the confusion created when the masses feel powerless & want to vent their anger somewhere. I'm glad you're happy & evidently successful. I'm one of the working "poor" who has gotten to that point & getting poorer every year with no pay increase in 4 years, increases in my health care premiums & copays, increases in my pension contributions, not to mention gas & food prices (necessities), utility rate increases, cable & internet rate hikes. How much further can hard working honest people be pushed before they break? Yes, Washington is the problem, but most of their legislation is bought & paid for by WS companies. It comes down to which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Don't you think this will have an affect on the beliefs and actions of members of congress?
Of course not. Because OWS has fucked up the message. OWS has permitted a Pelosi to stand up on TV and say that she supports OWS and its anger at Wall Street. In reality, she is part of the problem and OWS's dumbass targeting of Wall Street has given her a pass and allowed her and others like her to shift the argument. OWS should be matching on the capitol and no where else.
Thats Dead on Jalan! OWS should be slamming Pelosi, Obama, Dodd/Frank etc. Why aren't they doing that?
If you really believe that these people have been "Bought" you should be lined up with pitch forks in Washington DC!
This is the real problem. And of course all the liberals are jumping on the OWS bandwagon because it deflects the problem to business people rather than the real cause, the radical left!
This is why this movement lacks credibility. You should be slamming the lib politicians and the high profile backers like Micheal More, Soros etc.
Soros? he's got to be kidding? When they throw their support to you it should be rejected!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-nwo-just-owned-our-asses/
You are right that the trick is conveying the core message that the optimal number of people can get behind.
It is clear that we don't agree on what that message is. However, Wall Street is likely highly relevant to that message and so a logical place to occupy. The capital is also highly relevant and so would also be a logical place to occupy.
The sheep will not admit to the fact that there is a problem until they cannot support their lifestyle, lose their job, lose their house, investment portfolio, wife, etc. They need to pull head out and go buy some Clash records. Oh but wait, let's just admit the simple fact that there are a ton of jerks in the U.S. and then there are us cool people. Things are changing. Once the baby boomers are out of the way and in the old folks homes, us cool people can take over and right the ship. Wyatt Scott on ReverbNation and Myspace. Revolution Punkrock People!!!
The baby boomer references are uncalled for. I'm 55 & know lots of other old geezers like myself who firmly stand for personal freedoms & despise the buying & selling of public office positions. We've ALL got to focus on what is at stake here. We can lose by being fractured into our own little prejudices , or we can all WIN if we stick together on the main issue of the unholy alliance between money ant the politicians it buys. Remember, a whole lot of us baby boomers still have that rebellious attitude from the 60' & 70s, but we've had to go underground to a certain extent in order to get & keep a job, stay out of trouble. The oppressiveness of laws we've seen enacted since that time would have been unbelieveable to us in our youth. Yours & my personal liberties have mostly been taken away & we've been powerless againt the money macine in politics..
"and then there are us cool people."
Humble much? LOL...;)
all the time
my scene of entitlement is very low
To think negatively is like taking a weakening drug.
The sheep will not admit to the fact that there is a problem until they cannot support their lifestyle, lose their job, lose their house, investment portfolio, wife, etc. They need to pull head out and go buy some Clash records. Oh but wait, let's just admit the simple fact that there are a ton of jerks in the U.S. and then there are us cool people. Things are changing. Once the baby boomers are out of the way and in the old folks homes, us cool people can take over and right the ship. Wyatt Scott on ReverbNation and Myspace. Revolution Punkrock People!!!
The sheep will not admit to the fact that there is a problem until they cannot support their lifestyle, lose their job, lose their house, investment portfolio, wife, etc. They need to pull head out and go buy some Clash records. Oh but wait, let's just admit the simple fact that there are a ton of jerks in the U.S. and then there are us cool people. Things are changing. Once the baby boomers are out of the way and in the old folks homes, us cool people can take over and right the ship. Wyatt Scott on ReverbNation and Myspace. Revolution Punkrock People!!!
The 1% are the top earners in the country. While everyone else has been struggling to survive in this economy, they have actually propspered and are even better off than they were. If you're not one of them, then you're part of the 99% whether you want to admit it or not.
The "top earners" in this Country are wherever you want to draw your magic line. The 1% stops at $385,679. So they are evil, but the guy at $325,168 is a victim? No? So the $325,168 is now evil too, but the guy at $275,000 is a victim? No? So he is evil too, but the guy at $175,000 is a victim? It is a joke. The "evil" is anyone that has more than you. And wherever you sit on the economic ladder, that is where victim status begins. You guys are hilarious. And yes, I am in the 99%, and I have ZERO complaints. And the problem with your argument is that I get to represent my own situation and feelings - not you.
No, the evil is the lifestyle that so many of these people choose to live. The evil is living in a 6+ bedroom home, having multiple vehicles, living in an unsustainable way and never giving back to the community. What's evil is the lifestyles that the top 1% lead. If you don't have any complaints about that, well then you are just as bad as they are regardless of how much money you make. You see, its not really about the money. It's about what's being done with it.
When the money is yours, you can decide what to do with it. It isn't your money.
If however this money that doesn't belong to me is being used in a corrupt and immoral way then I should stand up and say something no? For in my opinion, if I do nothing, I'm just as guilty.
Morality is largely an opinion in the eye of the beholder. Your post was about wealthy lifestyles and your disdain for them. There is nothing immoral about that. You have a right to say something about it all you want. Just as I have a right to turn around and walk away from your rant. In my view, your rant is about jealousy and envy. And THAT is MY right.
indeed
the money is centralize among much less than 1%
And? It isn't your money. It's theirs.
he who has the gold makes the rules
It isn't your money.
the human race a great untapped potential
Do you spend untold billions of dollars to buy your representation in our government? If not, you are the 99% -
1% buy their representation, they have bought and paid for the government. The 99% are left with the crumbs.
I am in the 99% and I have much more than crumbs. I am content and I am happy. Speak for yourself April, not me.
People are being way too nice to jerks like jalan on this site. Time to get real, time for the anger to flow. Anger can be power don't cha know that you can use it? Jalan's the typical douchey I hated in high school. No we can't all get along. It's clear it is us against them and always will be.
Jerks? Really? So asking tough questions makes someone a jerk? Clever.
Well you're obviously clueless as to what's really going on. So, don't cry when you are no longer content and happy.
jalan, you are absolutely right. I should not speak for you. I am sorry. I was trying to make a point and I did NOT do it well. I'm glad you are content and happy! I'm mostly happy too! But I know when I see things around me that is not right.
Let me ask you this - if you don't mind - Do you think the government hears your voice? Or is the government beholden to the 1% that has the money buy it? Some of us believe that money talks too loudly in our government. And who do you think the government listens too? I believe our government listens mostly to the 1% that has bought their representation. If you are represented with more than crumbs, then I am truly truly happy for you. However, some of us are not. Some of us do not believe we have fair and equal representation in our government.
Hopefully, I said this better this time! I'm trying, and I appreciate your patience. And again, please accept my sincerest apology!
A rationale and reasonable voice. Bless you April. I have a voice in government in this way: I have a vote and my vote has a very small impact to influence the individual representing me in this democratic republic. In reality that vote, by itself, is meaningless, until the day that that vote is not meaningless and the winner wins by 1 vote. We only know in hindsight when that vote matters.
Now, once that vote is cast and that candidate is in Washington, most of them fall victim to the game. Money influences everything in Washington. Money influences too much and it corrupts our system.
However - money does this because Congress has allowed it. In my opinion, your anger is focused on the wrong entity. You don't get mad at the entity that is exercising the opportunity that a government allows them. You should be getting mad at the entity that created the law that permits them to do it.
You shouldn't get mad at GE for not paying any taxes, UNLESS they did something illegal. You should be mad at the legislators who wrote the laws that GE followed.
I am not against the general idea that there is too much influence of money in our government. I just think the target of this effort is completely and totally misguided. The target should be singular: Capital Hill. Wall Street is not the enemy. Congress, that created the framework that allows Wall Street to operate LEGALLY, should be the target. What this movement is doing is creating a scapegoat for Congress. You are allowing Congress to say "see - Wall Street is the problem. We aren't the problem."
This protest should be held in one place: Capital Hill and no where else.
Wallstreet actually wrote those laws behind the scenes. It is the collusion between government and corporations that is being called out here. There is a revolving door between government and the private sector that has consolidated way too much power in the hands of a few. Look into these things for yourself. Try to see things as they are.
Blaming a corporation who is operating within the legal framework of what Congress has allowed them is a weak argument. Congress is the problem. Not those that use what Congress gave them to their advantage.
LOL really? Ok so if I own a corporation, and I personally know that some action isn't moral and probably should be illegal, but because Congress said it's Ok I move forward with this action ignoring the obviousness of its immorality, then its Ok and those that don't think so can go to hell? Explain the logic please. I mean sure congress made the rule but if its obviously wrong to take advantage of, then you shouldn't, period.
I am specifically talking about a corporation's ability to try to influence Congress for the purposes of pushing certain legislation, etc. I am not talking about the acts of a Madoff or Enron. Their actions were illegal. I place no blame on a company that atempts to seek influence in Congress for what is in their best interest. I place blame on Congress for not closing their ability to do so.
My example still applies, and I do see your point but you have to address the issue from both the corporate and governmental sides.
Thank you so much for your patience and listening jalan! We are saying much the same thing! I am not mad at anybody or anything. I truly am not. I'm saying that the problem is the political system for allowing money to enter into the equation. Wall Street is a symbol of money and power. Money and power that has diminshed our democracy. You are right! I believe also that making changes to our government and political system is the answer. And I believe that to make this change, to get money out of the politcal system, we have to speak out as the 99%. It has not happened through the usual means and measures. Many people have talked about campaign finance reform and moving to publicly funded elections. It has not happened. If you believe in this, please consider helping this protest and speak out for it too! When we have a fair and equal democracy, all other things are possible! The possibilities are endless!! Please consider! I know there is alot of noise. But it is up to each one of us to help - tell 2 people, or 10 people, or 100% if this is what you believe. Tell others! We will get there. It is a process. Be part of it if you believe.
I will not help this protest. I do not respect what this protest stands for. Money is not evil. Money is not the enemy. The accumulation of wealth is an American ideal, not something to hold in disdain. The power of money to buy influence in Washington DC is the problem. And it is Congress that is 100% responsible for the problem. Notice that I've never uttered the words Democrat or Republican here? It is Congress that is the problem - all of them. The only thing that politic party has to do with it is that one party has gotten a percentage of the less successful to believe that they are on their side. They aren't. They are only on their side to the point of getting the votes they need to stay in power. Once they are there, they are subject to the same influence that the rest of them are subject to. No party is better than the other in this case.
I will focus my energy on Congress on no one else. Wall Street is not the enemy. It is Wall Street that will have a role in helping me create an attractive retirement someday. Money is not evil. What people allow money to buy is evil. And Congress is 100% in control of that.
Again you're blaming congress, and sure they WILL bare some of the guilt, but it is those that choose to take advantage of any given rule or situation, no matter the immorality and for the sake of money, that are also equally responsible, if not more so.
There is nothing immoral about using the influences you have to your better your situtation. It is completely up to Congress to take away the influence.
Lets make this clear. Congress says that it's Ok to destroy a community farm in south central LA for the sake of making a buck. This farm feeds several hundred people in the area and these people rely on that farm for sustenance. You know it's immoral but by destroying this farm you are going to make several million dollars while ruining the lives of quite a few people. I myself would simply donate that land to the citizens of this country that were using it. But an ahole of a business man had it bulldozed and the police beat the resistance out of the farmers that protested. You see nothing wrong with this?
One thing that I learned a long time ago is to never trust the picture of a situation painted by someone that has a stake in the argument. I know nothing about what you speak of. And have no opinion on it until I research the facts myself.
Maybe there are no facts. Lets just say for the sake of argument.
What I said is basically fact though I personally have no stake in this accept that it kills me to see my fellow man act with such disregard for humanity and mortality. Watch the documentary Save The Farm.
Wall Street is going to bleed you dry, my friend, with their exotic instruments, computers and equations. They syphon millions daily through High-frequency trading. Look into these things for yourself. Do some research and try to see things as they are.
None I which I have to participate in if I don't want to. That is a choice my friend.
I absolutely respect your opinion. But let me just say, I do not think money is evil. And I don't think Wall Street is the enemy. It is simply a symbol of the problem of money in our political system. A political system that I think we both agree should be changed. You are right, Congress is in control of that. And I am hoping that our government will hear us. And perhaps they will hear us if we all sing the same song. I'm trying anyway. Best Regards, April
It is very obvious that our government is NOT hearing you because of the completely misguided target of OWS. You are working against the very goal you wish to achieve. You can turn on any TV and see your representatives like Pelosi saying that she supports OWS against Wall Street. What is the problem with that? The problem with that is that it lets her off the hook. She doesn't have to take any personal responsibility for the uprising because she can turn the focus to Wall Street and not the Congress that she represents. She can say "see, they are mad at Wall Street, not us." By doing so, she can then use OWS to her POLITICAL advantage to stay in power and continue the corrupt influence.
OWS is cutting its own throat by its misguided target.
I understand what you are saying. But, I cannot worry about how the politicians or media try to portray this. I know my truth. I can only stay true to my convictions no matter what others say. I can't control other people. I can only be responsible for myself and do what I think is right. And if any politicians are using this for political purposes - it will be shortlived. The time will come when there will be no where to hide. The fact that it is taking place on Wall Street, that is a minor point for me. It's a symbol and I realize that it's an easy target for some to point to Wall Street as the problem. But hopefully, some people will come to see that money is a symptom of the problem. My truth and my cause is more important to me than the "place" that it happens at.
jalan, I'm more than happy to talk with you more about this, but we may have to - respectfully - agree to disagree!
The top 30% or so all make over $100K per year. Even if they don't agree with the current system, it works for them so its going to be hard to convince them to try and upend it. Life doesn't have to be fair if life is good.
I am grateful and fortunate enough to be in that 30%. However, I cannot compete with - example - wealthy corporations that use their wealth to buy representation. I am afraid that when I write to my repersentative, my voice is drowned out by the money and influence that has helped put him/or into office. Really, who is he/she going to listen to?
Well said. I feel like people should be protesting Congress more so than Wall Street. The vast majority of companies actions may be unethical, but they are completely legal. It's a hard sell to stockholders (some of which are indeed middle class with their 401Ks) when companies don't maximize profits legally.
How about a protest on K Street? The lobbyists are the ones who have our leaders ears.
Yes but it is the rules that allow them to. Don't hate the player, hate the game. If you hate the game, change the rules. That can only be done by Congress.
Wall Street is a symbol of money and power. Money and power that has bought their representation in government is the problem. The political system that we have in place is the problem. We must fix the system by demanding publicly funded campaigns and zero contributions by corporations. Money speaks too loudly in our political system. It is diminishing our democracy. This is what I am fighting for. By taking money out of the politcal system all other things are possible. Please consider!
Agreed, but that has to be changed in Congress. They make the campaign funding laws. It's a case of don't hate the player, hate the game. Wall Street represents the players. Attention should be focused on the 2012 Congressional and Presidential elections. The easiest way to change Wall Street is to change the rules to the game. While some will always cheat, the majority of corporations will play by the rules.
Perhaps Congress will hear us if we all sing the same song! By speaking out to change the politcal system and getting the money out - speak out in favor of campaign finance reform and ending corp personhood.
Exactly. A major goal of this movement should be to know exactly where all 2012 candidates stand on campaign finance reform. Make their stances public and well known so it is harder for them to flip-flop once they are elected. Campaign finance reform is something that both Republicans and Democrats can get behind, even many Tea Partiers support it. And as such it is an excellent goal for this movement because it is very much attainable, which is something that can't be said for many of the ideas floated around this group.
I hope it won't take that long! With the hard work of this protest and a little luck, hopefully we won't have to wait until the election for it to happen. Work, work, work and luck to us all!
Congress can't listen. They have been put in power with the money from the 1%. We have to fight the 1%.
If the 99% demand it, Congress will have little choice but to listen. And act on behalf of the 99% - finally! With the hard work of this protest and a little luck - we can make it happen. Have faith in our convictions, fellow protesters and the 99%. Demand Election Reform, Demand that the 99% have a voice in our democracy. After that, all things are possible!
Right on Mooks. Well said in all respects. Congress it the problem here. No one else.
“It’s the 99% that have lost Representation from a government too busy looking for its next donation to listen to just” We the People". The 1% can buy their attention and this is why the 1% got richer than ever before in 2010! Even after electing a Black Democrat for President, the 99% get sold out.. I point this out about Obama as 2010 being well into his presidency and he obviously has sold out to the 1% also!
This is why we march, we have no “representation" just like “We the People" in 1776
The Declaration of Independence, adopted on July 4 1776 stated that:
“We the People”, Marching Today, state that:
No, the 99% didn't get sold out because YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR THE 99%. You are a fringe movement that speaks for the fringe that you represent only. Your fringe group can do whatever you want but spare me the bullshit that you represent "We The People." We have a 1% fringe group bitching about a 1% wealthy group. The remaining 98% of this Country don't support either one of you.
They are NOT the 99 percent. ... Jalan, we are the silent majority. We are watching. Expect us.
I'll refrain from attacking you and simply point out that even assuming the truth of the claim that this group "DON'T SPEAK FOR THE 99%" the argument
P1 [This group] DON'T SPEAK FOR THE 99%
Therefore,
The 99% didn't get sold out.
is neither sound nor valid.
you sound like some 12 yr old flamer..
No - I am a 40 year old middle class family man who thinks you guys are full of shit. Interesting that you didn't refute anything said - just attacked. Typical.
we are bringing truth to the sleeping masses, if you don't like it fine.. we believe in freedom of speech, but your just throwing blind hate and this makes you look like a 12 year old flamer..
Hate? Pointing out that you don't represent the 99% is hate? Hardly. It is called reality.
A mere 39 people signed a document that started, "We the people of the United States". Based on your argument, we should throw that out entirely because there is no way 39 people could have represented the entire population. That one percent you speak of would give OWS over 3,000,000 making the same claim. Who's "full of shit"?
Here is the difference my friend. "We the people" WANTED 39 people to represent them. No such honor has been bistowed on OWS.
We the People did not sign any piece of paper that said "We want the richest 1% to make all the rules."
Where did you get your pot? And is there anymore? The top 1% controls 50.9% of the stocks in the stock market. If they are not Wall Street, then who are they?
The top 1% of hippies controls 99.999% of all pot. Injustice say I! Also, the hippies need at least 1 hot chick at the OWS protest. Everyone I've seen there looks pretty busted.
If you'd like some of that stock BUY SOME. ETrade online - it's pretty cheap.
Yes, because I have so much disposable income to spend. I will choose to stop feeding my family to go buy it. The reality is that the bottom 50% of the populace controls 0.5% of the stocks. And the 'middle class' (those between 50 and 90%) control a whopping 9.2%. That's right 90.3% of the Stock market is controlled by the top 10% of wealth holders.
How are you deriving that number btw?
If you don't like these odds, then don't invest. What is your message? Are you a maker or a taker? Every society has a ruling class. It’s also called FREEDOM from tyranny. Why do you want everyone to be equal economically? We all have the potential to be successful. You’re either motivated or you’re not.
This is not about being equal economically. This is about removing the 1% control from our Government. I believe in a Capitalistic society. But I do not believe the ruling class should be there because they can buy the Government.
Then your beef is with Congress that creates the laws that permits that influence. You can't blame corporations for leveraging the advantages that Congress has allowed for them.
Yes we can. The only reason that they have those advantages is because they bought them.
They bought the influence through laws that Congress created for them. By OWS not having clarity in the target of the message, you are diluting the message and it will be inconsequential. OWS needs to focus its target on Congress - they are solely responsible.
You have to remove the money before you can change the Congress. It works against their own interests to change the rules at this point.
Yeah, that is going to work.
It is the only way to make it work. It is not easy. But it is necessary.
Sorry, I missed the memo that made ownership of stock a human right. I'll go look for it.
It's not a matter of having a human right to own stock. It is about the wealthiest 1% having financial control of the Government. This is not a movement about entitlement to money. It is a Revolution to throw the shackles off of our Government so that it can return to a Government of the People for the People.
First, this is not a political movement. It has nothing to do with being a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Muslim or Jew or Christian or Atheist. It has nothing to do with the Left or the Right. This is a Financial Revolution. This is a revolt of the 99% that are throwing off the yoke of financial oppression to free our Government from the corrupt control of the 1%. We are no longer willing to sit idly by and just voting in hopes that the elected officials will ignore the puppet strings and do what is right. We are taking our future into our own hands and standing up to fight for what we believe in, a Government for the People by the People.
We live in a Feudalistic Capitalist society governed not by the elected officials but by the person who donates the most money to their cause. The top 1% controls the money and thus controls the laws, fixing them to better themselves rather than better the 99%. So we, the serfs, are rising up against our oppressors. We will fight for ourselves. We will not ignore the 1% mocking us while they sip champagne and wonder "Why do they starve when they can eat cake." Like the American and French Revolutions we will rise against the Monarchy and attain our freedom.
In a modern American society it is virtually impossible to violently fight a rebellion against the 1%. The military industrial complex has insured that the general populace can not compete in an arms race. The 2nd amendment was intended to keep the Government honest with the ability of the populace to rise up if it ever overstepped it's bounds. The forefathers did not envision a future of smart bombs, drone airplanes, and tomahawk missiles. So what weapons can we fight with to effect this Financial Revolution? What peaceful, civil, and responsible solutions is there? We have, our money.
We will cripple the banks by refusing to acknowledge their credit system. We will en mass refuse to pay our mortgages, car loans, student loans, credit cards, unpaid medical bills, insurance, etc. We will couple this with pulling our money out of their Banks. Unified, we will force the banks to relinquish their control on the Government so that the Government can do what they need to do to correct the system. Meanwhile, we will still go to work, buy groceries, pay our utilities, and live normal lives.
The 1% have to be accountable for their actions. They have to relinquish control. They can not live in their ivory towers and ignore us anymore. The 99% are here to fight for our country. We are American and we believe that the American Dream is still alive. We just have to work hard to wrest it from the iron grip of our oppressors.
Right on.
Correction: It isn't "a revolt of the 99%." It is a revolt of less than 1% - the same fringe 1% that you are bitching about, except on the opposite end of the income scale. Nothing more. It isn't a revolution. It isn't a movement. It isn't the start of anything. It is this week's news, which will be replaced by next week's news.
If you want to have a conservation - go for it. If you want to copy and paste talking points from your OWS blog, then find someone else to preach to.
Your wrong. This won't simply go away. People all over the country are starting to take part. Actions taken by the police to dissuade us from protesting only act to increase awareness and get more people involved. Our government and the "1%" continuing with the status quo, will only serve to get more people involved. So many, like myself, were just waiting for a movement like this and see it as a chance to finally bring about real change.
First they Ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they Fight you... Then you Win.
Yep.
Then you wake up and hope your boner goes down because you've got to get out of bed.
I like how when you fail to address the topic and are corrected, you resort juvenile insults and ridicule. Don't try to misdirect the conversation into abstract mud slinging. This is not about wanting stocks or taking money from the rich. This is about taking back our government from the 1% of Wealth Holders so that we can live up to the ideals detailed in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence.
Which means what exactly? Spare me the glowing rhetoric. What specific Constitutional Right are you not receiving? What specific Bill of Rights right are you not receiving? What specifically is being withheld from you from the Declaration of Independence?
A Government run by the People for the People. Instead we have a Government run by the 1% of Wealth Holders who can donate to the Government to have laws enacted that serve their best interests rather than the interests of the 99% of us that remain.
"A Government by the people for the people" is the Gettysburg Address my friend - not the Constitution, not the Bill of Rights and not the Declaration of Independence.
Give us just 1 specific thing from each of the documents you referenced, that have been taken away from you.
The right to free speech and to assemble peacefully in protest of a government and corporate America run amok. If this right were being upheld then those that have sworn to serve and protect wouldn't be attacking innocent people as they've clearly been doing.
You really want to argue semantics? This government was founded on the principles to be self governed. Not to be governed by Banks and Industry. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, and even Ben Franklin warned against the corruption of the Banks. These sentiments were reiterated by Abraham Lincoln later in our history.
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson
It isn't semantics. I am pointing out that 1) you may be fighting for "rights" that you never had to begin with but rather only think or wish you have and 2) You can't name a single specific thing that has been taken away from you. This is typical of everyone pissed off about something. They are good at being pissed off and good at thinking everyone else is the cause. But when you ask for specifcs, there aren't any. Again, for the 3rd time, I'll ask you: what SPECIFIC thing has been taken away from you?
You are completely missing the point. You are so blind that you want to argue about points. However, I'll bite. How about a the right to a fair trial? Why is there a disparity between the amounts of fines and/or jail time for those that can afford high priced attorneys and those that have to rely on public defenders, or in civil cases can't afford council at all? This is a systematic injustice brought on by special interests effect on our governing process.
I am not missing the point at all. The point is that you are pissed off but who you are pissed off at actually didn't do anything to you. I am not aware of any specific legal case where a rich person bought off a lesser sentence than what the law prescribed. Do you?
I do in fact. Here in Jacksonville traffic court offers 'plea deals' to those with attorneys that are not available to offenders that did not bring council. It is the same in Kansas City when I lived there. I am sure if you look, you will find that there are similar effects in your area.
And that has exactly what to do with Wall Street and Washington DC?
It speaks to the way that wealth has corrupted the system. You asked for an example.
Are you Beavis or Butt-Head?
Also, we should make all the bankers wear monocles and pinstriped suits so we can identify and scapegoat them easier. It would be just like we did in ancient WW2 times with the star of David, only much more fashionable. Retro is in right now.
I am now the official leader of OWS. I make the rules now. Obey.