Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: We are fighting the wrong enemy...

Posted 2 years ago on Aug. 4, 2012, 10:26 p.m. EST by rickMoss (435)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

We are fighting the wrong thing. That's why we are making no progress. Technology is about to kill this country and the pretense of capitalism for good. You can't out run or outwork technology. That's why the whole system is falling apart. That's why they can't fix the economy. That's why everything is falling apart. The jobs aren't coming back people. You're fighting the wrong fight and getting nowhere. Check out http://www.deathbytechnology.com and you'll see what I mean.

We can protest all we want but that won't fix the jobs situation. Hell, we can overthrow the government and we still won't be able to fix the job situation. Look what's happening in the middle east. They are overthrowing their governments but nothings really changing. They can't create more jobs. That's all it is to it. The whole world is competing for many of the same jobs. It doesn't matter if democrats or republicans are in charge. Talk about creating jobs is a bunch of garbage because they know they can't sustain job creation. Another trillion dollar bailout will just prolong the inevitable and make things worse. We have one way out of this mess “The nuclear option” or you can keep talking and watch everything go down the drain.

“Be Smart!” - FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

41 Comments

41 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 3 points by trashyharry (2157) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

Wouldn't manufacturing and installing solar panels on every building in America that requires power provide work for alot of people?Other countries have started projects like that.To me that seems like something that needs to happen,.Someone proposed painting all rooftops white as a low tech way to fight warming caused by the Greenhouse Effect,which would also cause people to be hired.These are massive projects,but all of these wars and space exploration are massive projects,too-and they seem to get attempted even though they are open ended,incredibly expensive and don't serve practical outcomes that help people.

[-] 1 points by justcause (44) 2 years ago

yeah, only if that did not cost so much that it is like a 10-15 year payback for that and it also depends on where you are living. If you don't get enough Sun, then it is pretty much a waste of money as you would still have to pay for power and such while running this during the times when there is not enough sun. You need more than Solar, you need what is best for the area you are in whether it be tidal power, wind power, solar, etc.

[-] 2 points by neckstump (2) 2 years ago

trashing the constitution wont go over with most people and is not necessary to bring about the change we need. focus on one thing at a time, starting with political finance reform.no? if politicians cant take financial support , and bribes (lobbies?) from greedy corporations they will have to rely on being paid through OUR tax dollars and therefore their best intrest will be OUR best intrest

[-] 3 points by ChristopherABrown (550) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

Right on! I think rick might have forgotten the treason of GATT and NAFTA. And yes, Americans may not understand their constitution very well, but they do love it. We need to become the "rightful masters of the congress and the courts"(Lincoln), then we can control an Article V convention properly. The preparatroy amendments of this proposal include campaign finance reform.

http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-Amendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent

[-] -1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

What constitution. Do really think your constitution and rights matter when the powers that be ignore them at will. Focus on one thing at a time. That's insane. We have a million problems and you want to focus one thing. Good Luck! I Have to ignore everything that comes out of your mouth. It's the same kind of do nothing attitude that got us here.

“Be Smart!” - FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

[-] 1 points by Shule (1976) 2 years ago

Just what is the "nuclear option"?

It is not a bomb I hope........

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

No it's not a bomb. It's a brilliant idea to transition to a more advanced government that actually benefits the people it's suppose to serve. You can find the details here: Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1274) from Fredericksburg, TX 2 years ago

Ayn Rand was a moron. It takes brains to be a demon. Look for demonic in cynical SOBs like Milton Freedman. Con elites are evil Tory traitors. The T party base are fools and libertarians are the dupes of all.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

Your whole premise is off. If we actually applied new technologies to physically improving the world, there would be more jobs.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

You mean like this? "Foxconn to Replace Half a Million Employees with Robots" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBSPNOTa40g

If you really want to understand technology you should learn from the best: Dan Thomas - "Death by Technology"

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] -1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

You're a paranoid idiot.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Thanks! But it is that the best you can do after I just smashed your ass.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)

[-] 0 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

"Robots", in your sci-fi imagination, seems to be cyborgs, but this is about assembly work, not Skynet taking over your toaster.

[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Dude! Are you kidding. I'm an engineer by trade and education. I know you think you no and understand how the world works. But believe me, you and the majority of the people on this planet don't. They don't understand almost anything. That is why the world has always been a mess. It isn't that we don't have the technology to fix our problems. The real problem is us. We don't know crap but we think we do but for reason some we never do a dawn thing about it because why - We don't know what the they hell we're talking about. We have the technology today to build sky-net easily. The funny part is, we don't need anything near sky to bring the whole world tumbling down. And that's exactly what's happening. Dan Thomas said it best. Smart technologies are not our problem. It is the dumb technologies that are literally killing us. If you want to understand technology learn from the best - not the echo chamber.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0)

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

It's about taking on bigger projects in science and the arts, not about making more chattle labor for the masses. The mind's labor is what machines cannot replicate.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

On the OsiXs petition, there are 2120 votes showing for all fifty states. How long has this petition been going?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Hell if I know - It's going to take awhile and a lot of pain.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

All of these reasons point to the abolishing of interest rate charges. Lower the amount of money people need each month to survive, and suddenly people can work less hours at their jobs, and two people can each work 25 hours instead of one person working 50 hours and sticking their nose up at everybody else who doesn't work as hard.

The Debt Neutrality petition is up to 43 signatures. http://www.change.org/petitions/congress-create-debt-neutrality-rights-for-paying-down-credit-cards-student-loans

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

so im guessing you dont like lights out manufacturing or the use of computers to do useless task instead of humans.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Of course I like that. That's what technology is all about.

How else can I say this? "We Are Free!" http://WeAreFree.osixs.org

We don't have to live like this. You'll just have to open your eyes.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

don't have to live like what

slaves to the computer slaves to our phones and false ideals

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

That's a personal choice. I'm talking about being slaves to a corrupt government and economic system.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

OsiXs?

[-] 0 points by TheRoot (94) from New York, NY 2 years ago

RM: You say, "Fight the cause not the symptom." The primary symptoms of our society are our accepting 1) a money masquerading as real; 2) forced taxation with no representation; and 3) a central economy dominating its citizens. What do you have in mind as the primary cause of these symptoms? You say that the "real war is in our heads". What does that mean? Are you saying that the innocent caused these symptoms? Obviously not. What then is underneath it all, you know, the cause of it all? Before you nuke the constitution and fire up Cyber World, you should let us in on the secret. I say "secret" because in all your web pages, you haven't described the cause of the misery. You picked up on corruption and greed but dismissed them as symptoms also.

You named it- a thinking machine. Oh really? Who created the thinking machine and why? I am back to the cause, aren't I. But you dismissed corruption and greed. So where can you go from there? What exactly is your explanation as to cause?

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

The writings are not mine but I haven't found anything that I disagree with for the most part. They are the most brilliant ideas i've seen laid down on paper in my lifetime. If you read them I don't understand where your questions are coming from. OsiXs is quite clear to me. The pages are clearly written in plain language and no code as far as I can tell. They do site corruption and greed. But they are only sited as symptoms. Technology is the real root. I must concur. I am an engineer by trade and education. Greed and corruption have always been with us and apart of the system. But the one thing that has changed on an exponential scale and that ties most if not all the other problems together is technology. It's a brilliant finding. No one has pulled it all together and put a pretty bow on top of it like OsiXs. So the reason why our government continues to fail is because they attack the symptoms. As you should know and I know, fooling around with the symptoms won't change a thing. I'm not sure what you mean by "a thinking machine".

The innocent. The only people that are innocent are the children. We caused this mess. You can blame government, wall street, big business and the 1 percent if you please. But then you have to deal with what that really says about us. It says you have to be really stupid to allow a tiny 1% to control the mighty 99... PEACE!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] 0 points by gsw (2697) 2 years ago

Those interested might need to establish a sustainable, model communities based on agriculture and alternative energy OWS apparel, and production of green transportation. put "profit" back to community.

would need a lot of land. possibly a former inhabited ghost town, or rural South Dakota. Mexico too has inexpensive agricultural land.

if you could pull it off, become a "mother earth" (care for earth and each other or native-religion if you need tax deduction) - sustainable non-capitalistic, based on not owning wealth or possesions. "your" house is owned by "community" and they help build, you occupy and tend, and can use, as long as you give back in kind help to community.

As married to a mexican numerous years, i've seen some lovely land, beautiful scenery and people, who value peace and economic justice.

or you could in mexico build a city from scratch, put in small lots at $5000.00, home for 20,000 (or less?)and a ___ stake in a community agriculture or entrepenurial project. Here art and culture is valued as well.

An initial 25,000 would go to your house, and into a "communal" bank. You get it back after 10 years in community, and you get to keep your house too. and yes you can have a 20 hour work week.

work ten years and you get the home and lot and money back, or you could use it towards sponsor of other city member.

[-] 0 points by nwr12 (1) from 布鲁克林, NY 2 years ago

Tips: The latest fashions can be expensive so you should make sure you have enough money to buy the clothes you want. Certain fashions only stay in style for about a month, but it isn't wasting money just sell your clothes after you are sure the style went out for a little less than you bought it for. You can also search online in http://www.cchappiness.com to catch the fashion trend.

[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

Despite our problems now, the amount of labor that is required to survive has steadily gone down over centuries. Technology and innovation make work easier, create different types of jobs, and make life better. Without technology, we could not sustain the population of the earth. Unless you're a ethnic cleanser, or a totalitarian phycho, that's a good thing.

On the long time scale, life has gotten easier, and technological advances are accelerating. Would you really choose to be a farm laborer, or a manual assembler of TV sets in the 1950s punching a clock, or a web designer, social media coordinator, or industrial engineer, getting your starbucks every day?

Innovation saves labor, which creates wealth. The average hours worked WORLD WIDE has declined dramatically - more time for leisure, family, etc, and more creative jobs - despite the really rough spot we're in, which will get worse before it get's better.

Think of the environment- The environment 100 years ago was impacted orders of magnitude worse than today normalizing population. We have less of an impact today on our environment than we did in the 50s, and in 50 years, it will be even less. Technology and energy demand will require the abandonment of fossil fuels - not just because they're dirty, but because we'll need more energy! Energy generation has been steadily getting cleaner since wood burning! In 100 years, we may have near zero emissions, and it likely won't be solar or wind that generates it- probably thorium reactors (infinitely safer than current nuclear, and safer than coal).

Don't be a malthusian, be part of the change you want to see in the world, but know what you're talking about.

[-] 2 points by 1971 (154) 2 years ago

You are wrong because you are not looking far enough into the future.Technology is great, It enhances all our lives, Conversely it is so great each decade it eclipses more human capabilities. Machines are much better workers than humans and that will keep increasing exponentially.

  • Industrial age: machines surpass human physical capabilities.

  • Computer age: machines surpass human mental capabilities.

  • Artificial intelligence age: machines will surpass human imagination, creativity, intelligence, invention, judgement.

Nothing to be afraid of unless it's controlled by the wrong people. Lately the trend is for techology to be used for the wrong thing by the wrong people.

In 100-150 years machines will be able to perform most human jobs better, cheaper, faster and smarter.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

I think you miss the whole point. OsiXs isn't about doing away with technology. It is about using technology to serve mankind. Today technology is working against us. People like you mistakenly believe that it's working for us. That is the real point my friend. Don't just read snippets and think you know it all. It's obvious that you know nothing or you would've provided your solution without the same old talking points that have gotten us "NOWHERE". Do your home work, then think, then maybe open your mouth. I agree with many of your points. But Dan Thomas has it right. Everyone else including our so called top scientists, governments, bankers, economists and big business or just idiots like me and you. How else do you think we got in the mess. Yes, it's going to get a very bad. And your talking points will be just as useless then as they are now. My advice to you - here's something we can use now.

“Be Smart!” – FIGHT THE CAUSE – NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

We don't need more talk or Know it all's... Just solutions please... We don't have time for it!

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28464) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Three cheers for Bernie Sanders.

Sanders Proposed Constitutional Amendment:

This is a great post/petition to share/circulate.

re-tweeted.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Difficult? That's our problem. Most of us have had everything handed to us in this country. That's why we are about to lose it all. Off course it's difficult. But it's inevitable. Not only is our present government failing apart, our whole civilization is unraveling. It won't be long are as difficult as you think when the shit hits the fan. My suggestion to you is, don't be in front of the fan.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 3 points by 1971 (154) 2 years ago

You are correct. Technology replacing human labor will be the most important transition for the 21st century. Most people are blind though.

[-] 0 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

I agree with you Americans bought gas-guzzling SUVs and didn't save their money. People shopped at Walmart, which outsources its labor and profits to other countries (taking money out of their communities versus buying at local stores which would have saved their money in local banks and reinvested in workers, other local businesses, etc). Companies relied on making big profits fast, giving bonuses to CEOs and downsizing to keep shareholder profits at a certain point instead of trying to improve the company or close wage gaps so that workers could keep their jobs.

A president cannot fix a country that wants to consume-consume-consume, doesn't give a hoot about their neighbor or community as long as THEIR kid is in a good school, and celebrates excess and greed as if we do not live in one of the most abundant lands on earth.

Problem is, people want the economy fixed, but they don't want to fix themselves. They don't want to admit how individual choices have led to the downfall of this country. They want to watch Real Housewives and dumb shows and drink soda and eat fast food and be obese and smoke cigarettes and take NO responsibility for how that attitude and mindset and their consumer power is feeding all the things that are affecting/messing up the country.

It is SOOOOO so so so OVER to blame the president and the government for this country's problems. Because they may be bickering babies, but they ARE our representatives and Americans DID vote them into office. And according to most polls, it is actually the upper class, educated citizens that are more likely to vote, so what does that tell you?

A financial collapse is inevitable. Too late for political solutions. The people are so divided at a level of hate that no one can talk rationally. Case in point. OWS hate the right wingers with a passion so strong they see all conservatives as the devil incarnate.

So, I think maybe more time should be put into planning for survival of the coming depression than ranting about the government.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

I don't think it's man vs machine as much as it is satellite technology vs people. The more satellite technology pervades the economy, the more efficient many "applications" become, and therefore, less people are needed to perform work.

But this again dovetalis into debt. More and more debt, loss of equity in the past 6 years of 7 to 10 trillion dollars in the U.S., and therefore less and less ways to pay the debt, which grows exponentially, because of interest rate charges.

Interest rate charges are the microwave of our times.

[-] 0 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

You wrote...We have one way out of this mess “The nuclear option”.

You take a solid premise, and then explode it to bits. The answer is people who have built up collateral should be working less. This in turn creates more opportunity for others to create the wealth they want.

Instead, the ultra wealthy drop their billions and trillions of dollars onto the bankers whose job it is to get people to go into unnecessary debt.

American consumers pay 1 BILLION DOLLARS A DAY just to service the interest rate charge on 3 trillion dollars of CONSUMER DEBT.

If that interest rate charge of one billion dollars a day was being diverted to establishing innovative backyard energy creation inventions via wind and solar, 100,000 people could get 10,000 dollar grants, and then the next day another 100,000 people could get 10,000 dollars to develop new, small energy creation inventions.

Unnecessary Debt is being used to put people into panic mode and simply over consume valuable resources just trying to maintain their debt via questionable jobs that just over consume even more resources.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

So what is your answer to fix this mess since you seem to know what the problem is? Why don't you formulate a solution. Our problem is much bigger than debt. You can't solve a problem until you get to its root. Many have tried and all have failed. What is your solution? Do you have something better than the nuclear option. We don't have another 40 years to dither. If you have something better then I'm with you. Let's do it!

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

I would suggest not trivializing the power of interest rate charges to imprison people's freedom. We definitely should have already been in "petro assist mode", which means we do everything we can to maximize the value of all petroleum being used.

Petro should be first and foremost assisting the development of backyard energy creation. The money we're paying on interest rate charges is the skimming off petroleum's ability to dominate an economy that should be going to finding ways to use less petroleum.

As for population growth, yes, there's probably too many people. If people had their first kid when they hit 30 instead of between 20 or 25 that might help stretch out population growth until it was stable.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

Wow. That's really ignorant. May I suggest reading Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". It's free on the web or kindle... except the investment of time.

[-] 2 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

You're part of the problem. One of those know it all's that don't know anything. Always looking for a cheap easy way out. Well look around you. Your whole world is on fire and your only answer is to protest. That's the equivelent of a child pouting in a corner. It will do nothing to fix the problems we face today and in the near future. You're too funny. Adam Smith, really! I like to see your type of stupidity. The walls are starting to close in on everyone now even the rich. Most people like you won't be able cope. The ignorant are quickly confused and disoriented.They'll just shoot them selves or jump off of a building. So jump, you already have. Might as well make it official.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)