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Forum Post: We ARE being heard

Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 11:11 a.m. EST by weepngwillo2 (277)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

We may not be seeming to make progress, but our messages are starting to be pulled into the main stream

Just this morning (about 10 min ago) Face The Nation asked some important questions.

  1. Is the damage that political campaigns have reaped on both parties, damaging the system as a whole?

  2. is the damage something we can fix before the political system "blows up"?

We already know the answers to those questions. The system is irretrievably damaged, and we are the evidence that it is "blowing up". The question remains whether we can use the basis of our Country's foundations to give us a fresh start or if we are going to have to start over.

For me that is an easy one. Our foundational documents not only provide a framework from which we can make the changes we are looking for, but it also provides us the right/responsibility to demand that our government fairly represents all the people of the United States



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[-] 2 points by blazefire (947) 12 years ago

Woot! LOVE this thread and your work weepngwillo2!!!


[-] 2 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

People would understand OWS better if they read the Suffolk Resolves written in 1774. It led to the Declaration Of Independence.


[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

Thank you for the note...it is added to my 'need to study list. I am currently working through The Federalist Papers and Common Sense, along with a few shorter essays...we have all heard of these documents, argued on their principles, most never having read them. It is so important that we bring them back into the public consciousness.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

The SR wiki is a quick read

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

You are correct, but it also deserves a much more thourough perusal. I am building a database of sorts, from which I am going to be reproducing and giving opinions on these "foundational documents".

Please look for my blog "The voice of a Midwestern War Child" at blogspot.com, or you can find me as a contributor at Citizen Commons (www.citicommons.com).

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

oh yea, hi. we met before. Talking about database, have you checked out gawdoftruths wiki? So many great things here potentially lost if this site disappeared all of a sudden...


[-] 1 points by blazefire (947) 12 years ago
[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago


[-] 1 points by socal63 (124) 12 years ago

Approval levels of politicians (Congress and the President) have been abysmal for quite some time. We are in the midst of a presidential campaign.

Why do you attribute these questions to OWS? It seems that these are obvious questions to ask.

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

We should have been asking these questions the entire time. The entry of movements like the Tea Party and OWS are now forcing these questions and issues in a way we have not seen in more than a generation. Questions like:

When and how did a "political class" form that was seperate from the people when the government was supposed to be "of the people, by the people and for the people"?

When did it become acceptible to allow those in office to blatently disregard the wishes of the majority of their constituents in favor of their 'party'?

How did we allow a system to be put in place that legalizes not only what constitutes as bribery of our public officials but allows them to regulate industries that they are heavily invested in?

How is it that it took us this long, this much suffering to take place, before we really stood up against it?

How can we now, knowing what we do, justify being anything less than fully invested and active in a movement that is poised to return our government to the people it belonged to in the first place, the majority?

[-] 2 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

Great POst!

[-] 1 points by warriorjoe7 (232) 12 years ago

great post

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

Thank you. It is sometimes hard to discerne true steps of progress, but if our arguments hold their integrity as they move into main stream media, we have surely won a small battle.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

Actually that marks the turn of the entire conflict.

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

When is a somewhat amorphous entity at this point, and I believe depends on how quickly and effectively we can organize to take back the government and give it back to the people. If we maintain momentum and push things we might even be able to take some seats and other offices through write-in campaigns. My concern there is whether we would be rushing it to the point of reducing our overall effectiveness and potential for achieving the goald we have already set. It would almost make more sense to hold off and through an organized, and well thought out grass roots effort, work towards the goal of taking whatever offices possible in 2014 with the goal of the presidency in 2016.

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

The who of the matter is pretty complex. If we simply allow those, who have corrupted our system all along, to adopt our cause/argument/perspective, and allow them by default to be our voice, the progress we made will have been illusory. We need to identify those eloquent and passionate within our own ranks to start representing on a community by community basis. To give our friends, neighbors and colleagues names and faces to associate with this movement. We need representation at a more national level too, representation that communicates with those at the community levels. The big question is who will step up and stand against the personal attacks and criticism taking such a visible role will bring, and as a group, what can we do to support those who are ready to stand up to the challenge?

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

I did not want to be over confident in my statement. The next step is what we are all getting hung up on. How? Who? And when? Are the key questions.

How are we going to distill down from the wide ranging ideas of how to fix/change this, is on the minds of many of us. We also need to figure out how to continue to get our perspectives, arguments, and questions in front of the public in general, in a way that is louder than the portrayals created by those that want to silence our voice.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

An announcement by the NYCGA endorsing the concept of holding a National General Assembly would be picked up by every media outlet in the world. It's a game changer.



[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

What has OWS accomplished..... Nothing, nobody cares about you guys. You guys are a joke around the water cooler, the delusions from you people is laughable.

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

OWS has accomplished something that the rest of us have been unable to do as individuals. It has brought social and political changes, not to mention hope, to many other places across the world. It is forcing the questions of efficacy, transparency, corruption and corporate involvement into the national conversation.

There are some people who joke around the water cooler, but the are the same people complaining about how the government is spending their money and how much they pay in taxes yet get seemingly no benefit.

I think that they too want change, want corruption out of our government, want less corporate control over our political system, but haven't felt that OWS or any other movement really represents them.

The organization that is coming out of OWS has the potential to cross that gap. To get real change to happen there simply has to be better organization and leadership from within. Maybe those same people around the water cooler would find a place to represent themselves and others that identify with them, were they to look for ways to contribute to bringing about change that would benefit all of us instead of heckling 'round a water cooler.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

48% of the American public pays no income tax, in fact I get money from the government, so I am not one to complain about how much taxes I pay. Please name me one example of the "social and political" changes. What corruption do you speak of? You people do not represent me, I don't need you to, I didn't ask you to, stop saying you speak for the 99% because you don't.

[-] 1 points by weepngwillo2 (277) 12 years ago

This isn't just about taxes, and considering how little my family makes I understand where you are coming from, but even when we get some or all (sometimes more) than what we paid in for federal income tax, there is still money kept. You do not get back your social security contributions or your contribution to Medicare (fica).

Beyond that you pay taxes when you make purchases, property taxes (even if it is through rent). There are additional taxes you pay for phone service, gas, license plates, use taxes like toll booths, utilities, etc. It simply isn't right that when you break down the numbers, a teacher is paying 26% more in taxes out of their income than a miilionaire does.

What we are fighting for is to get the corrupting influence of corporations money out of our political system. Between lobbying, campaign contributions, large private donations, protection from insider trading laws, and so many other forms of legalized bribery, our government has been bought and paid for by the same people that created the laws that made the housing bubble and accompanying ressession possible.

Due to this nearly unregulated influx of money, all with strings attached, we can no longer trust that the government is acting in the interests of the people instead of the interests of those with the deepest pockets.

OWS is not perfect. There is not one person on either side of this financial dividing line of the 99% that is perfect. All the individual protests can do is speak out on behalf of the people that are present and those who have found other means of communicating their opinions to the protesters. They are doing what the can to change what has been made out to be an impregnable system.

I have seen many people that are upset about the same things as the OWS crowd, but seemingly would prefer the status quo to admitting a similarity with the movement. What is more important, to me, is recognizing that even though we may disagree with their methods, or with their image (which has been strongly biased to the 'far-outers' and heavily influenced by a paid for media), we can still have a common cause.

The 99% is much broader than OWS or the Tea Party. No individual group can represent all of the 99%. They are finding ways to group together to use their voices in tandem, so that it may be more easily heard than just one person. You don't have to be specially selected, or side with OWS or the Tea Party, be Republican or Democrat, urban or rural, to be one of the 99%. You are part of the 99% by default.

On the other hand you do have some other choices at your disposal. One is whether you are 'OK' with the status of our country/economy/government, or you aren't. If you are all good with how things are, the rest of my opinion will hold little water for you. You have the choice to be active or not, vote.or not, agree with ideologies or not, but at the end of the day, you cannot complain if you contributed through inaction.

You also have the choice to better represent yourself, give your voice some weight. Educate yourself on the issues (not saying you haven't) and on the documents our government was founded on. I think you will come to see things are not as they should be. Make an informed choice about where you stand with the government, and then be proactive in finding ways to achieve your goal. Start your own group that you feel represents the 99%. Look into some of the offshoots of the OWS movement like the 99% Declaration for groups that are closer to your perspective

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

If 48% of the public did not pay taxes, this country would already be declared bankrupt. Please stop citing wrong percentages for they are not true.

[-] -1 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

"INCOME TAX" it is a correct percentage, please learn to read. Since your such an expert tell me what percentage of the American people pay "income tax." Laughable, don't try to fight statistics with your bullshit.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

Our media is always telling us that it is now under 8% that are unemployed so obviously the percentage that is is much higher then your quote of 48% that do not pay taxes.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

God your stupid, you do realize that I and many other people who work don't pay any income taxes due to things like the earned income tax credit, child credits, and other credits and exemptions. Are you really that stupid your going to try to argue against me, and you don't even know what income tax is or who pays.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

Are you that stupid that because you got a refund that you did not pay any taxes? Are you also stupid that taxes are taken out of your payroll check the entire year so if you do qualify for those credits it just means you may get some of it back or do not have to pay anymore taxes for that year at tax time. Take a moment and actually look at all of your previous tax years and then come back here and tell me you paid no taxes.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

WEre talking about income tax for the 10th time you fucking tard. No they do not take anything out of my paycheck all year I still get money from the government, I know my own taxes you fucking moron. God your hilarious, I don't think I have ever communicated with someone so blatantly stupid on a subject. Have you ever had a job, have you ever done your taxes? Yes I and 48% of the country pay nothing in income taxes. YOu are really that fucking stupid that this doesn't mesh with your worldview, which obviously is misguided.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

Apparently you do, since your wasting your time to tell us all about it.

Keep laughing, that's the attitude that will help us grow.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

I didn't say I'm not quite entertained by guys asking for their student loans to be forgiven or wealthy hippie kids decrying the rich and then being exposed as being born in a very wealthy family. I love it, have you noticed why the main media sources have turned their backs on OWS, it's because you guys are hurting the democratic party and they know it. I love it keep protesting all the way through election year. I hope that makes you grow some more.

[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

Glad to be of service.

Damn those hippies, no two principles are further from the core of American culture than Peace & Love.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

Yeah those founding fathers spent all that time writing about "peace and love." Sounds like the same hippies that rewrote the Native Americans history to match their hippie lore are rewriting America's history as well. If it fits your purpose why not pretend it is.

[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

lol, clearly you don't know any Native Americans. They didn't need any hippies to rewrite their history, take a look at some of the indigenous people in other parts of the world like the Amazon Basin, peaceful, loving, spiritual. The exact opposite of American settlers.

I think the founding fathers would be out in the streets with OWS if they were still around...

Either way, its sad to see people who think peace & love are unattainable; maybe some day you'll have had enough greed and war and join us.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

Funny my wife is a full blood nez perce and my my children are half, but no I don't know anything about indians. I am glad hippies know so much about american indians and are always stereotyping my wife and kids. It is so idiotic how your guys worldview has rewritten history to meet your needs, now that I think about you guys don't rewrite you just make the shit up and as if its fact. American indians = peaceful hippies, American Settlers = white murdering racist pigs.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

I might be a hippie, but I'm also 1/4 American Indian; and I know quite a few others so don't pull that nonsense on me.

There are even a few Europeans who made comments about the hospitality of the Indian people... though most did not appear to feel they were human beings.

In any event, the truth is in the teachings; and no amount of intellectual dishonesty will change the fact that that acts committed by European settlers were on par with Adolph Hitler's actions toward the Jews.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

I knew it, Because your grandma was a cherokee princess that makes you an expert. Although I know you have never studied or read any real history on the subject, your just going to spout off your opionionated view, which from what you told me already is the modern main stream opinion. Every hippie in the world always claims some indian blood and then that makes them mystical.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

I don't have to claim anything, I have some, not that it matters.

You might want to take your own advice and read a few books which are not written by Europeans. You don't even have to go back into history, because the persecution was still going strong in the 1960s and 1970s.

Oh, and who am I going to believe? The ones who speak about "all my relations" or the ones who just returned from the crusades where they were catapulting Muslim heads over the walls of castles, much like today?

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

Really it is funny that your ashamed of yourself so much you have to pretend like you have some ethniticity in your blood to justify your bullshit. Just a second ago you were claiming a quarter blood which in most tribes that counts as being recognized so you would actually be enrolled. I know your not enrolled so I doubt your even a quarter. If every hippie that claimed indian blood was being honest than the population of 1% of our countries native american would probably be 10%. Your talking about credibility of "crusaders" when here you are blatantly lying on an internet forum. Laughable. I love this conversation talk about getting Owned.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

That's clearly what I'm doing, justifying my opinion over my blood. I only bothered to mention it because a post earlier you seemed to think that gave you some kind of authority to speak on the matter.

Credibility of crusaders? Your reading comprehension makes it fairly obvious why you hold those opinions, because your brain appears to construe whatever you read to fit your personal stereotypes.

I meant, I'm going to take the word of first nations elders who preach about "all my relations" over the word of a protestant historian, whose ancestors were busy slaughtering people left right and center on their own continent prior to coming over here and allegedly not being war like savages.

I notice you haven't actually bothered to address anything I've said, but you love to complain about hippies. Well you're a square, so there! Love the name game, but its for people who can't reason beyond their own individual stereotypes and prejudices.

Oh, btw; why don't you tell me about those vicious Hopi Indians? Then maybe I'll tell you how awfully ashamed I am of myself for being a Hippie with two university degrees.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

What have you said? Nothing of importance, you have made these ridiculous statements, with no basis of fact, just the fact that "all my relations" and the fact that you claimed to be a quarter blood (which I think it's given now that you recognized you lied.) Your right I do stereotype hippie thought I have met so many of them and they are predictable sheep. To be honest I am actually very entertained calling you a liar and a fool. I could care less about Hopi Indians and unlike like you I am not going to pretend to be some type of source on the matter. I am sure you think you are because you saw some tv show about them once.

I noticed instead of making a point you are always trying to prove your some type of source, 1. you claimed native ancestry in your defense of defending the hippie stereotype of the indian 2. Now you point out you have 2 university degrees, somehow that is supposed to make whatever it is your saying (which I have no clue what your talking about because you are always referencing yourself) have more credibility. Hippies are all the same.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

I'm sure the fact that I was lying about it is real given in your world... but you are completely wrong at the same time. Secondly, you, not me, were the one who first made reference to their family heritage.

If you had the first clue what the phrase "all my relations" implied, you might see that little blub is actually a very big statement on first nation culture.

Well I've read Frank Waters book of the Hopi... that would be first book they tell their stories to Europeans in, it might not make me an expert, but you could at least acknowledge the people of peace don't fit your stereotype of the rabid tomohawk throwing indian savage...

Well I realize people like you who stereotype hippies can't come to the terms with the fact that some of us are well educated, and not lazy; it was a bit of a snide response to your stereotyping. No need to get all worked up, your reading too much into it.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 12 years ago

Most hippies are well educated, you guys are a dime a dozen, homogenous look, thoughts, taste in music.

Rabid Tomohawk throwing indian, your peace loving indian is just a stereotype that has nothing to do with reality just like the Tomahawk one. It is this mainstream hippie belief and there is no historical fact whatsoever that Indians lived in a hippie indian utopia before Columbus, you are proving my point.

Also now your claiming because you read one book about a desert tribe, you know history. Like I said all you do is talk about how great you are without making any points justifying your new age American indian mystic beleifs have nothing to do with any culture that ever existed. Your a modern day Billy Jack.

[-] 0 points by gamblingmofo (36) from Westbury, NY 12 years ago