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Forum Post: Watching the demise of the Columbia Glacier

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 28, 2011, 9:24 p.m. EST by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The Big Melt - http://pbs.org

Playing now, Nova on PBS: Extreme Ice

Next: Secrets Beneath the Ice

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How Long

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How Long

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Brian Williams just reported today, Thursday, January 5, 2012, that 98% of the nation is above freezing; and 115 cities around the country set all time record high temps for this day.

Jim Cantore elaborated on those numbers to state that of those 115 record high temps, four of them were 41 degrees above average and all time highs not just for day, but the entire month of January.

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303 Comments

303 Comments


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[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

My "skepticism" comes from the fact that CO2 levels HAVE NEVER affected global temperatures ALL ON THEIR OWN. Fact is, they were once up to TEN TIMES higher than they are now-and the globe was COLDER.

  1. there are a number of feedback loops - including a loss of ice at either pole, which will increase the amount of sun's energy absorbed into the sea; then there is methane trapped in the permafrost, and in the sea bed beneath the ice caps. Methane is more efficient at trapping the sun's energy than co2.

  2. you are seriously confusing the different eras contained in that vast period of time we term the Ordovician Period.

Some of those things, HUMANS can and do affect, and some of them we can't and don't. Saying that ONLY the ones we affect are responsible for the climate changing and NONE of the others-seems a tad....unscientific don't you think?

I think you are grasping at straws. How much they pay ya?

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

since we seem to have a lot of global warming deniers running around the forum screaming their abject denials with shrieks of hysteria, I thought I would resurrect this post, just for fun, you know.

For anyone who finds the madness mindnumbing, there are some great videos at PBS . . .

heehehe

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Has Shit-Head ( I mean NightShade ) stopped by to spew shit at you yet?

[-] 2 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

It kills me how people are not alarmed by this. Sea levels are going to rise and that spells trouble. I believe in Global Warning, but there are plenty of naysayers that will try to make you look stupid for believing in it. Also, these people don't think too often about the natural world around us. They don't see the consequences of being "eco-hostile" or just being indifferent, instead of "eco-friendly".

Here is an article I found from Natural News. Sorry, it is a bit gloomy, but if we raise awareness and take necessary action hopeful we can turn things around. http://www.naturalnews.com/032258_economic_collapse_2012.html

We must be part of the solution, not the problem.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

That illustrates the success of the oil industries disinformation campaign.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Yes, it is called brainwashing. If people wanted to know the truth--it is there, but instead they just allow themselves to be spoon-fed this croc of b.s about there being no such thing as Global Warning.

I think of the movie "Erin Brockovitch" and how PG& E came to the residents of Hinkley, CA and just straight out lied to the them telling them that yes there was chromium in the water, but it was good for them. The reality was that in the water of Hinkley was the most toxic kind of chromium (hexavalent chromium aka chromium 6). These poor people were getting all sorts of cancers and ailments and that stupid corporation lied to their faces. I was so glad when they got that huge settlement. Just unreal!

Well, that shows you how low irresponsible industries and corporations/companies will stoop to cover their asses.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

it isn't brain washing at all. Brain washing is much much worse than a simple disinformation campaign. Don't get me wrong - paying scientists to lie is heinous, twisting politicians arms to support bad policy is corruption, and I don't like either.

But brain washing is a very personal, very direct, form of human rights violation.

And as for irresponsible industry:

In the Forum Post: Un-Settling Occupation

OccupyWallSt made the statement:

"Conditions of capitalist exploitation are predicated upon the acquisition of territory and the dispossession and dehumanization of indigenous peoples."

This is most recently demonstrated by the hanging of Ken Saro-Wiwa -

permalink

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

That just boils my blood. Here is a man brave enough to stand up to the status quo (his country's corrupt government and Shell Oil's rape of the natural world) and yet he was sent to the gallows. He was a martyr for the environmental cause. There will be others, no doubt.

When I speak of the brainwashed. What I really see is a society that is taught NOT to have any critical thinking abilities. This is being done at an early age. When we have a society that is seriously lacking in critical thinking skills--we have a society that is easily used and manipulated in the hands of the powers that be. This is why there is so little questioning about wether something is true or not. People put too much blind faith in those things they trust whether it be their favorite news station, their political party, or whatever. This is just downright scary. It makes me think of Hitler and how so many people followed him, despite the fact that he was a complete mad man. It is really scary when you think about it.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What is truly sad is that since they are oil producers we may one day be sending our troops into the country in support of some sort of police action.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Yes, that is something to be concerned about.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

To those stopping by: Push "truly" Green Energy and Fuel.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

What I really see is a society that is taught NOT to have any critical thinking abilities. This is being done at an early age

Not in the public schools anyway. They aren't teaching how the government functions anymore either.

You are right - in that under Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld the nation did take several steps in the direction of fascism - Naomi Wolf and others have documented their case on that issue - and to my knowledge none of them have examined the consequences that result from any spinoffs of programs like MKULTRA - I would suggest the contributions to American society are far reaching and yet widely denied.

It is also true that President Obama has not been able to turn back the clock very far on what has been done to undermine our democratic republic.

But we may be reaching a point where corrections can be made - hopefully they will be made - it all depends on how persuasive the Occupy Movement becomes in articulating the various problems facing the country.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Yes, I hope that his movement can bring about the change necessary. We have to undo all the evil that was done to ruin this country and to destroy the lives of the American people. This is why I am here, this is why I support this movement. Let's move forward and be agents for change. Stand strong and proud.

I am going to be winding down for the night. I will talk to you later.

Goodnight.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Sleep well.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hence the attacks on this site driving some crazy with the TV, Movie, Sports streaming bullshit.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think the fuckin repelicans are scared shitless

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

After the elections their fear could very well turn to suicidal depression.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I certainly hope so.

As sick as that may sound.

I certainly hope so.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well . . . they will get through it . . . I mean they are professional politicians . . . they will go in for some cosmetic surgery or something then sign up with the winners. Not to worry, a couple days of deep depression then back to business.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Hottest years on record:

  1. 2005 ranks at number 1

  2. 2010 ranks at number 2

  3. 1998 ranks at number 3

  4. 2003 ranks at number 4

  5. 2002 ranks at number 5


  • The average UK temperature for 2011 is 9.62C. The seven warmest UK years have all been in the past decade, with 2006 the hottest of all with an average of 9.73C.

  • 2010 tied for Earth's warmest year on record

    • Last year tied with 2005 as the world's warmest on record, according to data released Wednesday by the National Climatic Data Center. Records began in 1880.

    • By Doyle Rice, USA TODAY

  • Global Warming: 2011 Tied For The 10th Hottest Year On Record

  • 2011 is UK's second warmest year on record - Met Office

  • NOAA: 2010 Tied For Warmest Year on Record January 12, 2011

    • Combined global land and ocean annual surface temperatures for 2010 tied with 2005 as the warmest such period on record at 1.12 F (0.62 C) above the 20th century average. The range of confidence (to the 95 percent level) associated with the combined surface temperature is +/- 0.13 F (+/- 0.07 C).*

    • The global land surface temperatures for 2010 were tied for the second warmest on record at 1.73 F (0.96 C) above the 20th century average. The range of confidence associated with the land surface temperature is +/- 0.20 F (+/- 0.11 C).

    • Global ocean surface temperatures for 2010 tied with 2005 as the third warmest on record, at 0.88 F (0.49 C) above the 20th century average. The range of confidence associated with the ocean surface temperature is +/- 0.11 F (+/- 0.06 C).

    • more from NOAA

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

.

What the world needs to watch

  • Global warming is mainly the result of CO2 levels rising in the Earth’s atmosphere. Both atmospheric CO2 and climate change are accelerating. Climate scientists say we have years, not decades, to stabilize CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

  • To help the world succeed, CO2Now.org makes it easy to see the most current CO2 level and what it means. So, use this site and keep an eye on CO2. Invite others to do the same. Then we can do more to send CO2 in the right direction.

    • 2010 - 389.78

    • 2008 - 385.57

    • 2006 - 381.85

    • 1987 - 348.98 . . . . . . . . The last year when the annual CO2 level was less than 350 ppm

    • 1959 - 315.98 . . . . . . . . The first year with a full year of instrument data

    • From: CO2now.org What the world needs to watch

[-] 2 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

It doesn't matter if it's a natural cycle of anthropomorphic any longer. China is not likely to agree to any regulation. The US isn't likely to go along with cutting back and the kinds of cuts they talk about aren't really much help anyhow.

Look at the bright side, if the negatives out weight the positives of a warmer climate then society will collapse and you can build something better from the pieces.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

They obviously need to do something - it was evident during the Olympics in Beijing. Air quality? They didn't have any. The instituted a new policy for that event - you couldn't drive every day. If you had a car, you could only drive it every other day.

I'm sure that if we place energy production in the public hands nation wide, this will make possible a NASA style approach to finding solutions.

And the Chinese will be less likely to see the U.S. as exploitable on the basis of greed, or divisible on the basis of corporate hegemony.

and when we do find a solution - we can sell it to them.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

China may be forced to act at some point, but right now they have an over abundance of people and a strong desire, as a nation, to become a modern powerhouse. You're not likely to get a majority in congress either but changes are better as manufacturing moves to the third world.

By energy production, do you mean alternative sources? Solar technology isn't ready yet to fill the gap if you stop using coal and oil. Wind farms are starting to be associated with a low wavelength sound that people living near wind farms claim makes them ill.

I see us walking right up to the brink of destruction before we even begin to do anything. Maybe energy companies could be forced to fund research, but until we find a replacement for oil and coal I don't see us having and success cutting CO2 emissions.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

If we continue to wait until the evidence is simply unambiguous, as would naturally be dictated by market forces alone -

  • it may be too late

As a species we have the capacity to look ahead, to understand there are consequences associated with what we do, what we produce.

We have a responsibility to act.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

As a species we've always taken the short term view of things, the instant gratification over long term planning. It may be the responsible thing to do but there is enough fear of change and doubt in the minds of the general population to prevent action.

Too much of the proof relies on computer models and environmentalists have made a serious mistake. They have often overstated their case stressing the more dangerous extremes of change. Now there are a few studies showing change is occurring but that the rate is smaller then perviously stated. It's enough to cast more doubt on their position.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Now there are a few studies showing change is occurring but that the rate is smaller then perviously stated.

The PBS spots clearly indicate that the ice is melting much faster than was thought.

They also demonstrate that within the geologic record there is evidence that the collapse of the ice sheets can and does take place over a very short timespan.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

I agree with you, but doubt much will be done. China and India may or may not act, but it will not likely be within a decade or less. The United States is split on the issue with economics trumping caution at least in the short run.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

If we get the fuck off our asses and get serious - as we did with the moon landing - it is entirely possible to develop technology that can be sold to Asia.

As it is the oil and coal industry is standing in the way of producing policy that will push the research.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

And now, in the middle of January, I'm watching the demise of the remaining snowpack out on the lawn - all two inches of it -

and this is Vermont - we should have over two feet . . .

I hate repelicans

they lie and they lie and they lie

and know no shame

I hate the bastards

I hate them

[-] 0 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

do you know the difference between weather and climate?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

do you know the difference between accepting what is true and obfuscation?

What do you suppose the consequences are of widespread denial of reality?

Can't possibly be good, can it -

and yet

that is just what we have - thanks in no small measure

  • to repelicans

  • THE REPELICAN PARTY IS DONE

[-] -1 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

congratulations on the success of your lobotomy !!! there is no global warming man made or otherwise.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you should go plant some flowers . . .

New USDA planting zone map shows warmer winters

  • “It’s undoubtedly an effect of climate change. You’re hearing USDA respond to political pressure,” said Bill Sciarappa, the agricultural agent with the Cooperative Extension Service of Monmouth County. “We’ve seen a tremendous shift of plants and animals northward. Agriculturalists have been planning for 10 years on how to adapt.”

  • “One map in itself doesn’t say much about climate change,” said Art DeGaetano, a climatologist and director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Northeast Regional Climate Center at Cornell University. But “if we look at the (plant zone) maps from other periods, we see the zones migrating northward.”

.

Planting Zone Map On Seed Packets Updated To Reflect Warmer Century

  • The Arbor Day Foundation issued its own hardiness guide six years ago, and the new government map is very similar, said Woodrow Nelson, a vice president at the plant-loving organization.

  • "We got a lot of comments that the 1990 map wasn't accurate anymore," Nelson said. "I look forward to (the new map). It's been a long time coming."

  • Nelson lives in Lincoln, Neb., where the zone warmed to a 5b. Nelson said he used to be in a "solid 4," but now he has Japanese maples and Fraser firs in his yard — trees that shouldn't survive in a zone 4.

  • Vaughn Speer, an 87-year-old master gardener in Ames, Iowa, said he has seen redbud trees, one of the earliest blooming trees, a little farther north in recent years.

  • "They always said redbuds don't go beyond U.S. Highway 30," he said, "but I'm seeing them near Roland," 10 miles to the north.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Take action. See samples of how below.

183,361 signatures so far for Bernie Sanders petition as of 10:15am central time 01/15/2012

http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100081904.557411.411&gen=1&mailing_linkid=34578

The petition to save abandoned houses has 15 signatures. We picked one up at around 9:50pm 01/13/2012. Were just rolling right along.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Savingpeople-savinghomes-payingdowntheNationaldeficit/

Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.

http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb

Sierra Club has some good things to take part in as well. Set-up and ready for you to take part in. http://sierraclub.org/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.

http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

.


.

Brian Williams just reported today, Thursday, January 5, 2012, that 98% of the nation is above freezing; and 115 cities around the country set all time record high temps for this day.

Jim Cantore elaborated on those numbers to state that of those 115 record high temps, four of them were 41 degrees above average and all time highs not just for day, but the entire month of January.

[-] 1 points by NappyIsGone2012 (2) 2 years ago

oh no were all going to fukin die now. It is 15 below here, Help the World is melting hahahahahahhahahha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

ha haha

HA hahaha

BWA haha HA hahaha

.

  • Brian Williams just reported today, Thursday, January 5, 2012, that 98% of the nation is above freezing; and 115 cities around the country set all time record high temps for this day.

  • Jim Cantore elaborated on those numbers to state that of those 115 record high temps, four of them were 41 degrees above average and all time highs not just for day, but the entire month of January.

.

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha bwa hahahaha

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think I've seen data indicating the last three decades have been the warmest in the last 1,000 years -

I should google

[-] 1 points by someonewhocares (0) 2 years ago

I believe in order to change everything -- the way people think, becoming more eco-friendly, etc -- we need a global shut down, in terms of everything just stopping completely and we would have to start completely over. We all need a shock, something that will throw us off and make it so that we are forced to chance. I can honestly see why most do not care about the melting glacier situation because most do not know. It's not publicized enough, nothing really is. This is only because the media gives us what we want. It's sad to say that no one really cares about melting ice because they do not realize its cause and effects. It will take a martyr for people to understand that if there's not a change in attitude, steering away from the greed, wealth, and selfishness, we will all perish.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Never mind about the NightShit question I see that you do have an ass-hole contributing.

Do you think that "it" has a terminal case of diarrhea of the mouth?

rulezforradicalz7 (New York, NY) -1 points 15 hours ago

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

For those of you just checking in.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

If you can't believe the evidence presented to your own eye's, in a Time Lapse Photography Series, if you can't garner truth out of published scientific articles, then I'm afraid you may as well go back to sleep. Sorry for disturbing your slumber.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Glaciers used to move in inches per year. Now you've got movement of over 30' in a day?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Here's some hard facts for those who are just checking in.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I also posted this on my thread: Green or not? What is the Cost?

Content provided by Steve Miller. Hope you don't mind that I shared this Steve.

stevemiller said 17 minutes ago at Dec. 30, 2011, 12:15 p.m. EST (delete)

DIVINE ENERGY – THANK GOD Shift The Price Risk Bridgeport, CT 06605 Steve Miller Phone 203-612-1987

December 29, 2011

Chip Bottone President and Chief Executive Officer FuelCell Energy, Inc. 3 Great Pasture Road Danbury, CT 06813-1305

Dear Mr. Bottone:

If you refuse to discuss a remedy for the following problems this week, I will begin to search for an attorney who will file a stockholder derivative suit that will force you to resolve these problems by court order. The response I have received for my good faith approach to simple problems that are costing the shareholders suicidal dilution and a counterproductive marketing approach that has wasted $90,696,000 in the past five years has been unprofessional and bizarre. Fuel cells solve the energy policy All of the pollution, poison, and dangers from using nuclear power, coal, and oil are solved by the use of fuel cells. The public relations (propaganda) lies by the nuclear power, coal, and oil industries that constantly claim that they are safe and clean are ignored by the small fuel cell industry that will be destined to stay small if they continue failing to inform the public that fuel cells are the proven solution to the terrible risks from nuclear power, coal, and oil drilling. The recent Fukishima nuclear explosions we watched every day on TV killed 20,000 people, damaged the entire economy of Japan, and spread dangerous radiation for miles.

The NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission) and the Energy Department are both very cozy with the industries they monitor. None of their scientists and senior staff people ever recommends the solution that fuel cells are able to solve right now with current technology that is used very sparingly to replace the power plants that have caused explosions and spent fuel that can't be disposed of safely. There is virtually not a peep from the fuel cell industry to promote their solution.

Let's not forget the BP oil spill that poured oil into our food supply and then to make that worse BP was allowed by our government to dump massive chemicals they called a dispersant that masked the oil by breaking it into small particles that were less obvious to see. Let's not forget the daily explosions they call mountain top recovery that destroys the clean mountain water supply when the terrible chemicals from the explosions are dumped purposely to eliminate the cost of mining the coal before it is burned and poisons are air. The entire fuel cell industry completely ignores its own remedy.

FuelCell Energy (FCEL) has perfected the best process in the industry. The company has spent $17,150 $17,194 $19,968 $18,625 $17,759 on its annual selling expenses but has completely failed to make the public aware of the solution that is quietly stated to shareholders who are the few people who know their product solves the enormous risks that continue exploding poison into our food and air we breathe. It would be rational for citizens to demand that the products by FCEL replace the entire power industry on a round the clock operation but the FCEL management has failed to use the $90,696,000 it has spent. That is not a small sum of money to have been wasted during the past five years.

During the past 10 years the price of FCEL shares have dropped from $46 down to $.87 per share today 12/29/11. Recently the FCEL management diluted the net worth when it sold in July 2010 an underwritten public offering of 27,600,000 shares of common stock at a price to the public of $1.25 per share.

Net proceeds to the Company from the offering, after deducting the underwriters’ discounts and commissions and offering expenses, were approximately $32.1 million.

On January 10, 2011 FCEL announced entry into a definitive agreement with an institutional investor to sell an aggregate of 10,160,428 units at a negotiated price of $1.87 per unit, with each unit consisting of (i) one share of its common stock, par value $0.0001 per share (“Common Stock”) and (ii) one warrant to purchase 1.0 share of Common Stock, in a registered direct offering for gross proceeds of $19.0 million. The net proceeds from the sale of the units, after deducting the placement agent fees and other estimated offering expenses, will be approximately $17.8 million.

FCEL intends to use the proceeds from this offering for product development, project financing, expansion of manufacturing capacity, and general corporate purposes. There is no mention for the necessary public relations that would inform the public and the government of the energy policy solution created by FCEL. $90,696,000 has been wasted and the net worth of FCEL has been diluted in a corporate suicide. Regards, Steve Miller

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

message from the tea potty-
the glaciers are not melting due to global warming

they are melting because there are too many whales heating up the water
and too much hot oil under the ice


WE MUST KILL & DRILL


[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

It would seem the first half of that statement is inevitable.

I would have trials first. They need not be long and cumbersome affairs, but they must be public.

And once the trials are over, perhaps we can take a lesson from the Chinese, and send the bill for the bullets to the oil industry.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

Yes - we must have trials - and make sure the whales have a jury of their peers
then harpoon those hot monsters

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Interesting - I wouldn't have called ceos and their henchmen whales but it is a term in common usage - primarily at the black jack table.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The 3' they were talking about didn't include water level predictions if the antarctic melted. I believe that they were just considering at that point the dwindling northern ice. I think it was in the second feature "Secrets Beneath the Ice" that they were saying if a significant amount of antarctic ice melts that we could see an ocean level rise of between 60' to 200'.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I had seen the second one, Secrets Beneath the Ice. I think I've seen other projections in the 60 to 90 foot range as well. In Secrets Beneath the Ice they show evidence indicating that the sea actually has been that much higher - from New Zealand I think.

I tend to expect that three foot mark will be passed well before their projections given in Extreme Ice. The way the small lakes that appear on the glaciers and then eat through them is an eye opener - but it's really a no brainer. Of course that's what happens. I don't know why they ever assumed it would refreeze into the glacier. That's just silly.

One billion people depend on glaciers for their water, most in Asia. That is without question, a significant number of people.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

To think that a minor average global temperature increase of 3 or 4 degrees could cause so much havoc. One thing that did bother me a little in their discussion of the green house gas build-up, they didn't mention all of the nitrous oxide ( if I rememberize correctly ) that is being put into the air by catalytic converters. I'll have to check back on wiki but I believe these gases released by converting the CO2 in exhaust is supposed to be 3 times worse of a green house gas.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

the NYT in 1995 or 96, had an article about emissions. And there was one compound that was one thousand times more heat trapping than whatever they were using as a base.

It wasn't common, and no one knew where it was coming from.

I think the article as a whole dealt with industry reports on emissions from the NY area. I'm pretty sure the article indicated that the information was there as required by law - but not who was releasing it, how or why.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

All the more reason to get a real handle on the green house issues. From what I caught off of the Nature programming, there are solid environmental scientists who are concerned that a chain reaction has already begun and that previous projections as well as current projections may well fall short of the speed this ice melt is progressing. They are beginning to become aware of the synergistic aspect of green house melting sources merging and contributing to each-other as well as the merging effects of the melting are also more synergistic than they had thought possible.

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

they call them feed back loops.

We need to identify those feed back loops that naturally undercut repelican policy makers, harness them, and so facilitate the breakup of that

  • party of SEDITION
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I agree lets get synergistic on their asses.

This is why we are here this is why you are needed.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/

Share, circulate, educate, inspire.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I need to watch that movie again, and take notes.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Which one they are all good.

Inside Job

Extreme Ice

Secrets Beneath the Ice

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Well, of course, there is that.

I was referring to Inside Job.

I have it on DVD

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It really is the heart of all our problems.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

it is a big part of it, yes.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Something that most everyone can get behind and support.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

campaign finance reform - it's a no brainer, and a big part of the egg we gotta smash

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You got that right!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Ohhh. Thanks.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Great show. Scary kinda - pbs says that they have on their website maps illustrating sea level rise given different rates of ice melt.

The program offered an estimate of 3 feet/1 meter over the next 100 years impacting 100 million people - Florida, Viet Nam, and Bangladesh.

I'm fairly sure that is a significant underestimate of what is likely to happen in the next 100 years - I think they have revised the estimates downward because of resistance to the whole issue - and even these understatements carry a significant warning.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

Hey. I was just watching that. Was that guy nuts or what leaning into that hole! Amazing people doing that work. (Did you notice the show was funded by David Koch?)

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

That was insane. And then rappelling inside? Nuts! that ice is breaking up - chunks fall, gravity, plastic hat - no.

and Yes, he funds Nova. Don't tell me it's one of them Koch suckers. Can't be.

It's a chief repelican lie:

  • there is no global warming

.


edit: Koch funds Nova

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

Yes, it is one of the Tea Party Koch brothers. I found an interesting article that discusses how his funding makes some people question Nova's integrity. I thought the show was pretty clearly showing that we do in fact have global warming. But, then again, we always have to be on guard! Just a slight change to the thesis can benefit these people and laypeople like us could miss it.

http://www.observer.com/2010/culture/could-david-koch-be-calling-shots-pbss-emnovaem

And, yes, that guy was just insane. I will never forget that.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think it's discovery that has been running some really crack pot shows. It's a real lesson I think.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by headlesscross (67) 2 years ago

More like watching the demise of the hoax of Climate change.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think your other sock puppet already said that.

I should go make a few of my own, so I can uncollapse these threads . . .

but that's alright

because

as soon as the glaciers are gone . . .

  • so are repelicans!

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Your incessant "replicans" slur is one of the things that turned me away from Occupy. If you want to be part of a group that's solely for extremist Democrats then that's your partisan problem because you'll never accomplish anything tangible. But you might want to take a look a the Rolling Stone article that I cited in this post to see how the Republican Party is using the democratic system against you while you're gleefully chanting futile slur slogans.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I plan to vote.

And I don't think the term repelican is counterproductive at all. First, I would point to the contest between Newt and Romney, and their own adherence to attack ads. It is their primary method of discourse.

Never mind the nonsense over birth certificates or religion . . .

Then there is this:


[-] hamalmang (Lebanon, PA) 3 points 10 hours ago

I have caught myself accidentally reading the word Republican as Repelican at least 5 times over the last week or so in books and stuff. Keep it up.

↥like ↧dislike reply permalink


[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

If your plan is to turn away Republicans then have fun with that, while the RNC does more productive things by marginalizing your participation in government. I don't approve of that, but I'm a socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative Republican entrepreneur, and people like you have taught me that Occupy is an extremist Democratic group dedicated to partisanship, that will never accomplish anything tangible. Your shameful partisanship is part of what's actively shaping the Occupy demographic, making it less appealing to the centrist mainstream, and more appealing to the activist fringe. Occupy had its chance, and the influence of partisans like you is what has doomed the whole thing to obscurity.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I would really love to see more people like you around here. I understand why you might view this as partisan. That side of Occupy is very concerning to me as well. I wanted Occupy to be a trans-partisan movement. I figure if you want to promote your party or a particular candidate, well there's a party structure elsewhere to do that.

I'm still a registered Dem, but a very disillusioned one. There are quite of few of us here who don't find much to like in the two major parties. ZenDog basically says the same thing in every post so I just don't even read them anymore.

So, TJ, do you have any ideas what might be done now? Do we need a new organization to activate the radical center?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

The 'radical center' is already acting, when it sends its cops to evict leftist radical activists from camp sites on public property.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • I'm a socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative Republican entrepreneur,

Not my problem. You own it, not me.

  • and people like you have taught me that Occupy is an extremist Democratic group dedicated to partisanship

Actually the core of the Occupy Movement has beliefs that are a bit different from mine - they accept the myth that both parties are equally bad - that fails to take into account a variety of the Presidents initiatives and the ways repelicans have sabotaged both his efforts and even our economy. Look at the budget debate of this past summer - they engaged in brinkmanship for six weeks - it lasted right up to the very last minute - producing market instability six weeks out, tanking market and jobs numbers . . . . and in the end we got no agreement to reduce our debt by 4 trillion as global economists insist is necessary - why? It's the election - political calculation.

they miscalculated

  • that will never accomplish anything tangible.

We already have, we have changed the dialog. And we are just getting started.

  • Your shameful partisanship is part of what's actively shaping the Occupy demographic, making it less appealing to the centrist mainstream, and more appealing to the activist fringe.

This is the analysis of a propagandist who has over estimated my role, and the numbers of individuals within the movement who think like me.

. . . shameful . . . .

I'll take that as a compliment.

  • Occupy had its chance, and the influence of partisans like you is what has doomed the whole thing to obscurity.

.


.

bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I understand that extremism is bad for the nation, but maybe we just can't help ourselves after having a decade or two of extreme Representatives in the halls of congress. It is one thing to be extreme in your political rhetoric leading up to the election, but once in congress, our Representative politicians should not be filibusterering and utilizing other non productive tactics. The republic was built on compromises, not brinkmanship.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

That's fine, you're entitled to see it that way. Just don't pretend to represent the 99% if you plan to view it that way. If you plan to look at it through a polarized lens, and you want to taunt "repelicans", then you have to face the fact that you're the 15%. If you're intent on focusing on excluding people rather than including them then that's your prerogative. Enjoy obscurity. I came here months ago as a potential supporter but clearly this group is not for me. So I hired an employee who I met here and he's doing great, and I have very little interest in this site now, beyond that.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

fair enough. I only represent myself, and I believe the 99% thing is more of a dog whistle than a representation of fact. I ain't that naive as to think everyone is on my side or even as grievous as me. But hay, I'm still young I'll probably get over it. Though I do believe the kabuki theater that goes for political discourse and the wars for resources are good enough reasons to be upset and debate solutions or at least talk about changing course. What say you?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I say that it's pointless for people to simply discuss changing course, without an effective plan for accomplishing something tangible.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Yes, this movement continues its downward spiral. You haven't missed much, except the propaganda is getting worse in the News articles here. The latest article says protesters were "opening" a community building. It was breaking and entering onto private property. Imagine, the police stopped them! How dare they? All police - bad. OWS - good.

Another funny thing, the Demands Working Group is not allowed to make any demands. Must be somewhat boring and confusing for the 400 people in this Working Group to figure what to do with themselves. Lately, they have been thinking about impeaching Obama. Don't know why exactly, since they can't make any demands anyway. But, I guess they have to fill their day with something!

Its actually pretty funny, you'll appreciate the humor of this.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/whats-up-with-the-various-list-of-demands/#comment-619768

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

"I think your other sock puppet already said that."

no need to post on this one then

...

the world is gonna change

genetics is set to turn it inside out

gobal warming is real

so is exponential population growth

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you show promise as a poet -

not that there is any future in it . . .

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

text has changed

no longer. must one fill the page to condense the materiel presented

so it can be printed in a book

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yeah - but I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing. Are we understanding more about less? Or are we understanding less about more?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

as a computer programmer

if the lines and separated and nested,

the program is easier to understand

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

this isn't going to format right in this text editor, which sucks -


. IF STATEMENTS IN C SCRIPTED:

IF { war is a function for profit; }

AND IF { war is politics by other means; }

THEN { politics is a function for profit; }

IN C

FOR { IF (war) { return profit; IF (war ? (war || politics)); } profit (politics) return ( ); }

SCRIPTED

IF { function (profit) { war; IF { war = (war( ) ^ politics.by.other.means( )); } function (politics); } onfocus="profit( )"; }

.

© D. Winter

October 18, 2007

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

yes

but the global end product of war is destructive of resources

here the definition of profit would be wealth changing hands to the interested parties

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think the coding is still valid, you are just defining the variable 'profit'

[-] 0 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago
  1. war is a function for profit
  2. war is politics by other means
  3. politics is a function for profit

The above simple three point logic is flawed. It's a formal fallacy.

The second point states that war is politics by other means which implies that all politics are not war since there are other means for politics (war being only one of those means). The third point contradicts this by implying that all politics are like war, that is, they are all a function for profit.

For those interested in logic, this is a syllogistic fallacy called The Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle. It's one of the most common syllogistic fallacies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

It isn't flawed logic - it sets out two conditions, which when met, result in a third condition.

It's a construct - reasoning has little to do with it, beyond the formulaic reasoning of the underlying math.

[-] -1 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

The construct is flawed. The third condition does not necessarily ensue from the first two conditions even if they are met. Read my reply and the link to understand the Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle. If you still don't understand, I can provide you with an example. The key is that all politics are not necessarily war as per the first two conditions. War is described as only one type of politics, so all politics are not necessarily a function for profit. Reread all conditions very slowly.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

IF { war is a function for profit; }

AND IF { war is politics by other means; }

THEN { politics is a function for profit; }

This is a cascading set of rules - one that does not limit the possibility that politics might be something else, but when the first two conditions are met, then with the parameters of the function, any call to the variable politics returns a value of profit.

[-] -1 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

No, it's flawed. Reread.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

show me

[-] -1 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

I already did. Reread my first reply.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I see what you are saying -

but I still think in this instance the first two conditions define the third. In the real world politics encompasses much more than war - even when principles of the Art that is War are applied - and it is not always a function for profit.

Within the parameters of the code - the first two conditions define the third, providing limits to it, regardless of outside factors. The variable profit is only returned for the variable politics when both of the above statements are true.

  • FOR { IF (war) { return profit; IF (war ? (war || politics)); } profit (politics) return ( ); }
[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  1. My friend is named Pat.
  2. Pat is a body's [sic] name.
  3. My friend is a boy.

you are missing the

  • AND IF

portion of the statement. The and if makes it conditional.

[-] 0 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

No, I'm not.

if (my_friend_is_named_Pat AND Pat_is_a_boy_name) { My_friend_is_a_boy = TRUE; }

In this pseudo code, the AND is the same as the AND IF in your code. It's just a simpler language. Both premises must be TRUE for the code to flag my friend as a boy. Most modern languages don't use the AND IF construct, they use a construct like I wrote above. PHP, Lua, etc... would be written in my way.

The logic is wrong because the second point is not inclusive. Saying that Pat is a boy's name does not preclude it from being a girl's name. Your logic is flawed in a similar way because politics are not always war in your example.

An example of correct three point logic would be:

  1. My friend is named Mike.
  2. Mike is a name only given to boys, never to girls.
  3. My friend Mike is a boy.
[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I get it -

. . .you are an infinite loop . . .

[-] 0 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

You fail to understand that whether three point logic is expressed as three points or as an algorithm does not matter. Usually, such logic is expressed in algorithmic form to clearly illustrate that the first two points are premises and that the last point is the conclusion which is derived if those premises are met. See the Wikipedia article I linked above.

You can argue that your program would run no matter what, but the logic of your algorithm is flawed.


As an example, we can look at another Fallacy of the undistributed middle.

  1. My friend is named Pat.
  2. Pat is a boy's name.
  3. My friend is a boy.

if (my_friend_is_named_Pat AND Pat_is_a_boy_name) { My_friend_is_a_boy = TRUE; }

Just like your logic, this is also flawed. Pat can also be a girl's name.

Of course, this algorithm would run, but all my friends named Pat would be flagged as being boys even though some could very well be girls. This is called a logical bug in programming. It's much harder to track down than a syntax error because the parser won't report it.


I suggest you stick with plowing snow.

[-] -1 points by florian (-2) 2 years ago

That is one ugly computer language. You should have picked an example from Lua, Ruby, or Python instead.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I'm not familiar with them.

[-] 0 points by headlesscross (67) 2 years ago

Lame.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you think that is lame? I grant it isn't typical of the Socratic method, but then again . . .

  • I'm not Socrates . . .

the repelican party is DONE

bwa ha haha

bwa ha haha

bwa ha haha

bwa ha haha

[-] 0 points by D7ame2Uv (116) 2 years ago

Indeed, many scientists have found that when temps rise, so does CO2 concentration.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

that is exactly what the above graphs demonstrate

[-] 0 points by D7ame2Uv (116) 2 years ago

Yes, except it seems many people have been convinced it is the other way around, that is that when CO2 concentration increases, so does the temperature.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I hadn't heard that - I have heard that when temps rise and permafrost begins to melt methane is released.

[-] 0 points by D7ame2Uv (116) 2 years ago

You hadn't heard which?

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I have heard there is a correlation, as the graphs clearly demonstrate - and since co2 is a heat trapping gas, as is methane; my assumption has always been that the co2 tends to come first, as it has during the course of the industrial revolution.

I think this is a new argument against anthropomorphysis

One which I doubt holds water.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Burn Baby Burn!!

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[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Did you know that they found "alligator skeletons" in that area along with human remains. I guess it must have been "warm and sunny" at one point.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I missed that - but the pbs show did document the find of leaves, wood, and various sea creatures from the ocean sediments indicating both a warmer ocean and warmer land surface temp.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Do a search for this:

Why are palm fossils found near the North Pole?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

umm . . . because the earth has been above 350 ppm atmospheric carbon before?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

No, because it has been determined that that area at one time was a "tropical temprate zone"

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yeah-ya - and why was it is tropical temperate zone?

  • umm . . . because the earth has been above 350 ppm atmospheric carbon before?
[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Could be.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • Average global temperatures in the Early Carboniferous Period were hot- approximately 20° C (68° F). However, cooling during the Middle Carboniferous reduced average global temperatures to about 12° C (54° F). As shown on the chart below, this is comparable to the average global temperature on Earth today!

  • Similarly, atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the Early Carboniferous Period were approximately 1500 ppm (parts per million), but by the Middle Carboniferous had declined to about 350 ppm -- comparable to average CO2 concentrations today!

  • Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya -- 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ).

.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Look I don't want to get into a "detailed" discussion about global warming. I just made a comment on what I have read and that's about it.

I am not a "scientist' and don't pretend to be - however, it has been documented that global warming did exist in years gone by and the planet survived.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yes it did. So did apes.

The fossil record indicates apes were in existence six million years ago.

  • we were not.

The fossil record indicates that there has been flora and fauna at both land masses at both North and South Poles.

The fossil record indicates that the poles have, in the past, been free of ice.

  • bye bye New York City

  • bye bye Florida

  • bye bye New Orleans

  • bye bye Bangladesh

  • bye bye Viet Nam

[-] 0 points by KingVegetax (51) 2 years ago

I am still waiting for what the nominal avg temp should be. And the Sunken City in the Gulf of Cambay.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I hope the above graphs answer your questions.

[-] -1 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

Al Gore is that you?

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
[-] -1 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

In other related news Holder is saying "I knew nothing about fast & furious" Holder and Obummer should both be in prison

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

and that whole program began before Holder took office - since there now appear to have been two fast and furious programs, I would suggest someone has attempted to engineer scandal.

It isn't the first time the drug war has been creatively employed for political ends . . .

[-] 0 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

Yes the program started before Holder took office but he now owns it

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

it isn't likely that you can tie anything illegal or nefarious to Holder regarding fast and furious.

It would perhaps be better to focus instead on his relationships with the banking industry - which I know nothing about - but if that issue has merit, it will serve two purposes -

  • to your advantage - it will tar the current admin

  • to the advantage of all - it will force the admin to find new ways to distance themselves from current economic policy and the perpetrators of fraud.

Given that Holder seems to be a highly competent and honest administrator of the Department of Justice I would expect that focus on this issue would produce some interesting and concrete results . . .

the only real question is - do you stand with the fraudulent lenders and other assorted *deregulationists?

or the people?

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

My lord-do you even realize what you just did?

You just posted a graph that PROVES that the temperatures AND C02 levels have risen "rather suddenly" and then fallen in an almost predictable fashion for the past 300,000 years. AND without any "man made" ANYTHING driving them!!!

And while the two do correlate with each other, they do not completely mimic each other exactly. Sometimes the temp rises more than the CO2 and sometimes the CO2 is higher.

I'll give you that the temperature in the Antarctic today, currently, is -32.8 F-MUCH warmer than the past temperatures. BUT, the current CO2 levels are NOT where they should be for that temperature to be "mimicking" the CO2 levels like they do in this chart.

According to the chart, if every 20ppm increase in CO2 results in a 4 degree F increase in temperatures, at 380ppm the temperature in the Antarctic should be -44 degrees F. (-60-16=-44) That's a "massive" difference on this chart-not one other time is there that much space between the red lines and the blue lines.

So what is different THIS time? Could it possibly be one or two of more of the OTHER factors that drive our climate? Naw.......can't be.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I understand skepticism when talking about Global warming, but unless you are a scientist you do a terrible disservice to the human species by being so skeptical without even knowing all the factors that go into the heating and cooling of the planet. It is almost like you have faith that you and yours are right and everyone else who disagrees with you are evil liars. But that can't be. No one is that silly in today's age. Are they? do you know all the factors, such as sun spots, presession, and the elliptic nature of our planet's revolution around the sun. You sound like the church when Galileo said the earth is not the center of the universe, but hay, I guess if I lived during that time I would have been skeptical too, but I'd have been damn sure to have studied up on the phenomenon myself and closed my ears to the church's self interested explanations. Ain't it fun when history repeats itself?

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

Oh my crap. It's like you all went to the same really bad schools. Or maybe you didn't mean to reply to me....

I DO know that there are MANY factors that go into the heating and cooling of the planet. That's WHY I am so adamant against people like ZenDog who INSIST that "CO2" is the ONLY thing going on. THEY are the ones who are saying that they are right and everyone else who disagrees with them are evil liars. They are the ones acting like the Church when Galileo said the sun was the center of the universe.

I don't know how many times I have to say it. I am NOT skeptical about the globe warming. I'm skeptical of people who say that one thing and one thing ONLY is causing it.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

my bad, I only reacted to the one statement, and I guess that shows my investigatory sloppiness. But you do make a good point. Cheers!

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

One. That's ONE person here with some moral integrity.

Thank you SO much for being big enough to state it outright. :-) I truly appreciate it.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

You just posted a graph that PROVES that the temperatures AND C02 levels have risen "rather suddenly" and then fallen in an almost predictable fashion for the past 300,000 years. AND without any "man made" ANYTHING driving them!!!

  • LOOK AT THE DATA

I know you aren't that stupid.

Look at it.

CO2 and temps correlate - very closely

  • CO2 is currently headed off the fucking chart

  • LOOK AT THE DATA

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You may know they're not that stupid, but I have my doubts.

It'll take palm trees in Toledo and maybe more than that.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

This article that appeared in print indicated a fig tree growing in Boston, but the online versions I have found omit that particular bit of information.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You can bet, some corporation paid to have it removed.

It's bad PR, you know.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

In part it is editorial policy - print versions are often a bit different than e versions.

What the criteria is behind the editorial changes could easily be dictated from the head office of the holding company.

[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

I'm looking at the damn data. Please show me evidence that during the OTHER spikes and drops on the chart, other than the one we're in now, HUMAN BEINGS were responsible?????? No matter "how close I look " at the charts you presented....human "data" isn't ON them ANYWHERE.

But apparently you ARE so stupid that you don't understand that when people read a specific chart, they don't GET to mentally ADD IN whatever they want to.

THEN go back and "look at the chart VERY CLOSELY" and show me where, ANYWHERE on that chart, the divergence between the CO2 (blue line) AND it's correlated temperature (red line) are 16 FREAKING DEGREES APART.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

human "data" isn't ON them ANYWHERE.

look at the far right. You will see co2 spiking right off the chart - and temps are following right behind. Look at the second graph - and note that currently the co2 is 391.80 - which isn't shown very well on that graph.

  • and note that currently the co2 is 391.80 - which isn't shown very well on that graph.

  • it's off the chart

I'm seeing the physical evidence right outside my own door . . .

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

So then, according to the graphs at the top of the thread it's about to get extremely cold for a very long time? Do you think we may actually be on the verge on an ice age?

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

That's just the point. CO2 levels have been high in cold times and lower in hot times. There are so many other factors at work in the atmosphere, that to ONLY focus on CO2 levels alone, could be a VERY tragic mistake. It's not like we'd get a "do-over" if we got it WRONG.

http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/BadScience.html

Here's a Professor of physics and meteorology at Penn State who wrote some FABULOUS articles on Bad Science and Bad Meteorology. I love him.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I'm saying that according to the temp./CO2 graph that covers the last 350,000 yrs above, after each sharp upspike in temp, temps trend downward until the temp in Antartica is near -84F at the low point. Do those lowpoints correspond with past ice ages? Is the data contained on the graph approximately correct?

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[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

did you know there are even repelicans who are discussing the fact of global warming?

The are -

And there are five or six nations arguing over who will control the Northwest Passage - Including Canada, the US, and Russia . . . .

You should learn to appreciate science.

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[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

so you don't like unions . . . .

and we care what you like,

  • why exactly?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

spoken like a true repelican

  • you worthless racist fuck
[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

We all voted so please shut your goddamn mouth, you moose knuckle.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

By the time you discover how not to be a meat wallet, it will be essentially 6 months too late.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

LoL.

And that's an optimistic assessment.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

He isn't mad at the unions. He is a worthless piece of scum sucking shit that thought he needed to find some fictitious reason to act like a douche.

He is the same douchebag as before.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

he's a worthless racist fuck

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I doubt he is racist. He says shit simply to shock people. He knows that we condemn it and so that is why he does it. He is just a heavily painted whore.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I thought that the nazi white supremacists all died. I had heard that they all collectively forgot how to breath.

Something about Darwin weeding out the pathetic, or moronic or something like that.

Anyway Essentially not fit to breed.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

No, they are alive and well and usually down at places like Storm Front. When they invade someplace it is filled with cornball shit and it is hard as hell to wipe them out of a forum.

Which leads me to believe that he is here to shock.

Unfortunately, both cases are allowed to breed.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well what you say unfortunately makes sense.

If there were a third world war and it ended with a big nuclear flash, They would likely be sitting around afterward munching roaches.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

If there was a big nuclear flash, I think a good 1/3 of the US has turned the movie The Book of Eli into an erotic dream with a portion hell bent on playing Eli and the other on playing Carnegie.

Although, the thought of them sitting around munching on roaches was pretty sweet.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

You may be right - but the fact is that there is rampant racism among the tea party of the South - I saw an interview with two of them on pbs I think it was.

Proud they were.

the sick bastards.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

In the Midwest and they have managed to take over Arizona.

Well, there is that reeducation camp, yeah?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

If I'm elected you mean . . ..

. . . only after the purge . . .

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I did skip ahead.

Say, you should get around to checking your mail at some point. But, not here.

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Gosh you repugnant panda pounder, why does your bed reek like rectal opening?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Look, you rump spanking cock gobbler, nobody likes you or your reasty grandma

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

When a cheerleader dick-whips you and makes you eat nipple scabs, nobody is going to care.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Next to you, muff mustard looks gorgeous.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

You like knob in your orifice.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I didn't think a cum-drenched tard could be so motherfucking hideous until I met your disfigured ass.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hi hard at work as usual I see.

I'm sending you this link on a company called FuelCell Energy, Inc. I thought you might like to check it out. I was just given some information about this company so I Googled their link.

Check this out a real fuel cell company. Who knew?

http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I know you're a miserable fucker and all, but holy good god, fuck off.

You are the DanMitch character, asswipe.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Be patient folks we have a little more mopping up to do on this site then we will be out of here.

I guess it really isn't just your fault, is it; - even though you are, without question, an unmitigated asshole and a racist fuck - never the less, someone did leave the door open.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Zen

I'm sending you this link on a company called FuelCell Energy, Inc. I don't know if you will get much use out of the link using dial-up but I thought you might like to check it out. I was just given some information about this company so I Googled their link.

Check this out a real fuel cell company. Who knew?

http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Looks like it's producing direct current, rather than alternating current. Most home and business applications are AC

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I don't think that would be a very large hurdle to get past.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't know - I'm not an electrician.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Neither am I. But mainly the thing is what you set up a generator to do it will do. So I believe you have a choice AC or DC or both with applied adapters.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you are probably right

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Good news is that it is established at all.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I saw the letter - I wasn't real impressed.

I was tempted to look up information on it - but I was a bit busy with looking up global warming info.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I need to do some more exploring. But it looks like a source for good ammunition to push for green change.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't know why you couldn't start with a solar array, and use that to separate h2o into hydrogen and oxygen - and use the hydrogen to produce electricity on a mass scale - but there probably is a reason.

It is just math.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Like they say six to one, a half dozen to another.

I believe there are several ways to go about the processing. The main thing is it is being done on a small industrial scale already. I've spent many years in machining and manufacturing and one thing you hear all the time because it is true: "Continuous Process Improvement"

But 1st we need the process.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

It's been a long time since I was in manufacturing.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I'll take that as a good thing. While the work can be interesting. It can also be killer.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I spot welded for a couple of years - it was like smoking 2 packs a day.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Myself I ran multi-station machining operations and Screw machines among other things. I almost started in welding but that didn't happen as I got lost on my way to the interview, that was back in High School OJT.

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[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think you will find that is spelled

  • hear

and no, I'm not gonna pull my ear

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[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

go watch a movie

you fuckin nimrod

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[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

this must mean this post has hit the big time - we've got celebrities!

[-] -1 points by DanMich (49) 2 years ago

While some are watching the so called "demise of the Columbia glacier" I and millions others are watching the demise of the UN, Gore, Global warming scam.. Below is a few links but a quick search in Google or any other search engine will bring up millions of other sites with the same finding of "fraud" Sorry Al Gore http://www.globalclimatescam.com/ http://www.zerohedge.com/article/global-warming-exposed-un-funded-fraud http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming.html http://www.aim.org/guest-column/the-multi-billion-dollar-global-warming-fraud/

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yeah- we know liars exist in the world.

chief among them are global warming deniers. Go to pbs - they've got time lapse video - the glaciers are disappearing - worldwide

Glacier National Park - ever heard of it?

in ten years, fool, there won't be any Glacier National Park

and lyin fucks like you will have to find a whole new political party to use to spread your lies.

[-] -2 points by DanMich (49) 2 years ago

blah blah blah. Global warming scam is all about the redistribution of wealth and nothing else

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

go watch a video, fool

you can watch as the glaciers shrink just like an ice cube.

Soon the Northwest Passage will be open year round.

Or not. Keep lying. To yourself. To the rest of us.

I don't care.

What is it to me if that is the kind of person you are?

nothing

nothing at all.

[-] 1 points by libertarianincle (312) from Cleveland, OH 2 years ago

Zen did you look at the second graph above? Did you notice that every 100,000 years the SAME thing happens? What caused that spike in CO2 300,000 years ago? Neandrathal Escalades? You are the tool.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Science has demonstrated a clear correlation between co2 and rising temps.

We know what human behavior is - we know what it has done to the air quality over the LA basin, to Beijing, we know that co2 is a major component of our emissions, and we know the ice is melting.

You should look at the spike at the end of the graph. We are marching with nonchalance right off the chart.

In case you aren't just another troll, but actually another human being who has simply indulged in a bit too much of the Kool-aide, here:

z

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[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I think actually it's closer to 280 ppm in the last 350,000 years.

We're at about 390 ppm now.

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

He doesn't CARE about THAT fact. He doesn't SEE the actual chart for what it is. He ONLY sees the part that he wants to see. It doesn't matter how many scientific websites you show him, or how many OTHER things you can PROVE affect our climate, on TOP of CO2, to him, the CO2 is the ONLY thing that matters.

Hell, you can even show him proof that at one point in time the CO2 levels were 3000ppm and we were in the middle of a freaking ice age.

He's either too damn stubborn to admit anything other than his own opinion could possibly be correct, or too brain dead to understand WHY he's wrong.

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[-] -1 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Go look who is set to make BILLIONS of dollars from the global warming farce.Global warming is a joke.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

nice to see your perspective on display.

You should go watch a movie.

[-] -2 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

In other related news! Donald Trump to endorse Romney for Pres. Sure is going to be nice to have a leader again, we have gone nearly four years without one.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

who gives a shit who trump endorses - if you think the people of the country are going to vote into office more teabagger bullshit you are insane.

  • corporations are people too . . . .

bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .

[-] -2 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

Nothing to worry about folks and the truth about the Global warming scam is right here! Sorry Al Gore!! hehehehehe http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you really are a fool - you do know that, right?

  • The IPCC and other scientific groups, such as the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, have reconfirmed over the past decade that greenhouse gas emissions from burning fossil fuels, and deforestation, have led to a 1.4-degree rise in average global-surface-temperatures worldwide in the past century. That rise, the IPCC says, is likely to increase, with at least 2-in-3 odds that climate extremes have already worsened because of man-made greenhouse gases.

  • This year, there have been 14 billion-dollar U.S. weather disasters, according to global reinsurance firm Aon Benfield, shattering the previous record of nine set in 2008.

  • Tornadoes, hurricanes and floods in these 14 disasters killed more than 600 people, reports Masters.

[-] -1 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahhaha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa More Libtard propaganda hahahahahhahahha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you really are a fool, you know that?

  • What Factors Determine Earth's Climate?

    • "There are three fundamental ways to change the radiation balance of the Earth: 1) by changing the incoming solar radiation (e.g., by changes in Earth’s orbit or in the Sun itself); 2) by changing the fraction of solar radiation that is reflected (called ‘albedo’; e.g., by changes in cloud cover, atmospheric particles or vegetation); and 3) by altering the longwave radiation from Earth back towards space (e.g., by changing greenhouse gas concentrations). Climate, in turn, responds directly to such changes, as well as indirectly, through a variety of feedback mechanisms."
  • Earth more sensitive to CO2 than previously thought

    • December 7, 2009 SCIENCE DAILY – In the long term, the Earth's temperature may be 30-50% more sensitive to atmospheric carbon dioxide than has previously been estimated, reports a new study published in Nature Geoscience. Alan Haywood, a co-author on the study from the University of Leeds, said "If we want to avoid dangerous climate change, this high sensitivity of the Earth to carbon dioxide should be taken into account when defining targets for the long-term stabilisation of atmospheric greenhouse-gas concentrations."

    • >>>> Read the full article in Science Daily.

What did Chomsky say on Global Warming?

  • The chamber of commerce, the main business lobby, the American Petroleum Industry, other business lobbies have publicly proclaimed, in fact with enthusiasm that they are carrying out a campaign to try to convince the population that global warming is a liberal hoax.

  • and it's succeeded, unfortunately, the latest polls I've seen show maybe a third of the population believes in anthropogenic global warming . . .

  • . . . substantial number of climate scientists who believe taht consensus predictions are much to optimistic . . .

  • . . . the effort to manufacture consent to the beleif that it doesn't mean anything is pretty successful . . . those same ceos and managers who are trying to convince the public that its a liberal hoax know perfectly well that it's extremely dangerous . . .

you should go plant some flowers . . .

New USDA planting zone map shows warmer winters

  • “It’s undoubtedly an effect of climate change. You’re hearing USDA respond to political pressure,” said Bill Sciarappa, the agricultural agent with the Cooperative Extension Service of Monmouth County. “We’ve seen a tremendous shift of plants and animals northward. Agriculturalists have been planning for 10 years on how to adapt.”

  • “One map in itself doesn’t say much about climate change,” said Art DeGaetano, a climatologist and director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Northeast Regional Climate Center at Cornell University. But “if we look at the (plant zone) maps from other periods, we see the zones migrating northward.”

.

Planting Zone Map On Seed Packets Updated To Reflect Warmer Century

  • The Arbor Day Foundation issued its own hardiness guide six years ago, and the new government map is very similar, said Woodrow Nelson, a vice president at the plant-loving organization.

  • "We got a lot of comments that the 1990 map wasn't accurate anymore," Nelson said. "I look forward to (the new map). It's been a long time coming."

  • Nelson lives in Lincoln, Neb., where the zone warmed to a 5b. Nelson said he used to be in a "solid 4," but now he has Japanese maples and Fraser firs in his yard — trees that shouldn't survive in a zone 4.

  • Vaughn Speer, an 87-year-old master gardener in Ames, Iowa, said he has seen redbud trees, one of the earliest blooming trees, a little farther north in recent years.

  • "They always said redbuds don't go beyond U.S. Highway 30," he said, "but I'm seeing them near Roland," 10 miles to the north.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I can't help it if the washington times is intent on the utter destruction of their own credibility - the links above make a solid case.

the 1990 seed map no longer applies - and hasn't for years.

you fool

[-] -2 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

80 people just died from freezing temperatures in Western Europe. We should welcome a nice moderate winter. Think of the $ billions saved in heating and snow removal costs. And nice weather makes over-night camping a lot easier for OWS.

(http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/death-toll-from-deep-freeze-rises/story-fn6ck55c-1226260132035).

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Extreme weather events are expected due to global warming:

What the BBC reports on Moscow's current weather certainly fits that bill. There is no question - the U.S. is having an extremely mild winter, and it includes tornadoes . . .

Yup - I'd call that extreme

[-] 0 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

More good news about the end of global warming. We must listen to the scientists. They say there is nothing to worry about:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html

[-] 0 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

The nice winter that we are having is not extreme weather. It's nice. So whatever we are doing to precipitate the nice weather we should continue. The only thing worse than global warming is global cooling.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you really are a fool - you do know that, right?

  • The IPCC and other scientific groups, such as the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, have reconfirmed over the past decade that greenhouse gas emissions from burning fossil fuels, and deforestation, have led to a 1.4-degree rise in average global-surface-temperatures worldwide in the past century. That rise, the IPCC says, is likely to increase, with at least 2-in-3 odds that climate extremes have already worsened because of man-made greenhouse gases.

  • This year, there have been 14 billion-dollar U.S. weather disasters, according to global reinsurance firm Aon Benfield, shattering the previous record of nine set in 2008.

  • Tornadoes, hurricanes and floods in these 14 disasters killed more than 600 people, reports Masters.

[-] -1 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

What about the scientists that signed the document below? They seem like pretty smart folks. They were published in one of the worlds most prestigious newspapers. We really have to just trust what the scientists tell us. They are the experts after all and we should not deny their predictions. We don't want be accused of being "Nice Weather Deniers".

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • Scientists offered cash to dispute climate study

    • Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.

    • Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

    • Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered.


  • Big oil companies pay to eliminate environmental laws

    • Exxon and Koch, two of the biggest oil companies in the business are paying to write state legislation repealing climate change laws. According to tax records and other materials acquired by Bloomberg News, not only Exxon Mobil and Koch Industries are involved in this business, but also numerous other companies which have every interest to keep global warming under the carpet in various states around the US.

    • Basically, they are working to dismantle environmental programs by becoming active in the American Legislative Exchange Council, or ALEC, which allows private-sector parties to “pay-to-play” – charging thousands of dollars to sit at the table with legislators and craft bills

The Industry of Denial

  • To make a climate skeptic sputter, you need to as ask him for real evidence — published in a respected, peer-reviewed scientific journal and authored by a scientist with a PhD in climatology — that atmospheric concentrations of CO2 can rise above 450 parts per million (ppm) without affecting global temperatures. No expert will make that claim. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists believe that a global tragedy is drawing nigh.

  • CO2 Now stands at 391.80 ppm

[-] -1 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't doubt it - with shit like this, it is really easy to understand:

The Industry of Denial

  • To make a climate skeptic sputter, you need to as ask him for real evidence — published in a respected, peer-reviewed scientific journal and authored by a scientist with a PhD in climatology — that atmospheric concentrations of CO2 can rise above 450 parts per million (ppm) without affecting global temperatures. No expert will make that claim. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists believe that a global tragedy is drawing nigh.

  • CO2 Now stands at 391.80 ppm

.


.

And then there is this:

Scientists family threatened

Which of course now makes me wonder -

One of my clients called about 20 minutes ago - apparently someone pulled into their driveway at 3:30 this am. They thought it was me - but there is no snow. Since there is no snow, they called to inquire . . .

Naturally I forwarded that information to the local pd -

There is no evidence of course, to indicate that this is an attempt to intimidate me - none at all. Were that the case, as everyone who may be interested can plainly see - I'm not intimidated in the least.

On the contrary - cowards don't scare me at all.

. . . fukin scumbags . . .

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • Scientists offered cash to dispute climate study

    • Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.

    • Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

    • Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered.


  • Big oil companies pay to eliminate environmental laws

    • Exxon and Koch, two of the biggest oil companies in the business are paying to write state legislation repealing climate change laws. According to tax records and other materials acquired by Bloomberg News, not only Exxon Mobil and Koch Industries are involved in this business, but also numerous other companies which have every interest to keep global warming under the carpet in various states around the US.

    • Basically, they are working to dismantle environmental programs by becoming active in the American Legislative Exchange Council, or ALEC, which allows private-sector parties to “pay-to-play” – charging thousands of dollars to sit at the table with legislators and craft bills

The Industry of Denial

  • To make a climate skeptic sputter, you need to as ask him for real evidence — published in a respected, peer-reviewed scientific journal and authored by a scientist with a PhD in climatology — that atmospheric concentrations of CO2 can rise above 450 parts per million (ppm) without affecting global temperatures. No expert will make that claim. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists believe that a global tragedy is drawing nigh.

  • CO2 Now stands at 391.80 ppm

[-] 0 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

Quick question. If it is all about CO2 and currently we have reached 400 ppm and we have to believe the "Chart", then why has the Antarctic not warmed by an additional 25 deg as the chart projects?

Also, the globally averaged surface temp chart showing the last 1000 years indicates a 1 deg F change in the last 100 years. 1 degree is pretty small. Could this be within the margin of error in the measurement? Could it be that we measure surface temp more accurately in the last 100 years than we can from scattered reports, ice cores, and tree rings over the prior 900 years?

This seems like pretty flimsy data on which to expend ~ $ 10 trillion. That money would be much better spent to feed the hungry, provide medicine for the poor, and generally ease human suffering globally.

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Quick question. If it is all about CO2 and currently we have reached 400 ppm and we have to believe the "Chart", then why has the Antarctic not warmed by an additional 25 deg as the chart projects?

Give it time, nimrod. The ice at both poles is shrinking - and about 15 million years ago, when we had a rough equivalent in terms of atmospheric c02, it was ice free.

We'll get there, and once we do I am sure we will all look back in some mild relief to know that at least the global warming deniers no longer exist . . .

  • the repelican scum are done
[-] 0 points by jbm58 (65) 2 years ago

Cogent defense. I thought that you might provide some technical explanation about the statistical margin of error in the measurements and lagging temps due to the thermal capacity of frozen water.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

why waste time on the minutia - focus on what is relevant.

What is relevant:

  • the ice caps are shrinking

  • some scientists have now come to the conclusion that most estimates are woefully optimistic

  • the frequency of extreme weather patterns has increased, and there is every reason to believe it will continue

  • once the ice caps are gone, the coastline will recede inland, by miles in many cases, displacing hundreds of millions of people

  • populations that now depend on ice melt for potable water will be forced to relocate

  • changing weather patterns - as with projected expansion of drought in the south west US - will force the relocation of breadbaskets world wide

all of which will create friction between divergent demographic groups, leading to conflict and likely war . . .

[-] -2 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

Oh my God no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The big melt is here bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

No need to panic about Global warming according to these scientist http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • What Factors Determine Earth's Climate?

    • "There are three fundamental ways to change the radiation balance of the Earth: 1) by changing the incoming solar radiation (e.g., by changes in Earth’s orbit or in the Sun itself); 2) by changing the fraction of solar radiation that is reflected (called ‘albedo’; e.g., by changes in cloud cover, atmospheric particles or vegetation); and 3) by altering the longwave radiation from Earth back towards space (e.g., by changing greenhouse gas concentrations). Climate, in turn, responds directly to such changes, as well as indirectly, through a variety of feedback mechanisms."
  • Earth more sensitive to CO2 than previously thought

    • December 7, 2009 SCIENCE DAILY – In the long term, the Earth's temperature may be 30-50% more sensitive to atmospheric carbon dioxide than has previously been estimated, reports a new study published in Nature Geoscience. Alan Haywood, a co-author on the study from the University of Leeds, said "If we want to avoid dangerous climate change, this high sensitivity of the Earth to carbon dioxide should be taken into account when defining targets for the long-term stabilisation of atmospheric greenhouse-gas concentrations."

    • >>>> Read the full article in Science Daily.

actually I've been watching this . . . debate . . . since 1998. I'm kinda tired of the bullshit. I've watched it morph, from:

  • there is no global warming

to

  • well, okay, so there is, but there is no evidence to indicate that it is anthropogenic* . . .

and soon, based on my thermometer right outside my own door - I would say the whole debate will disappear altogether.

  • and the repelican party is DONE

The sun has been down for 4 hours now, this is Vermont, in the dead of winter. Currently the temp outside is 41 F

that's crazy

  • What Factors Determine Earth's Climate?

    • "There are three fundamental ways to change the radiation balance of the Earth: 1) by changing the incoming solar radiation (e.g., by changes in Earth’s orbit or in the Sun itself); 2) by changing the fraction of solar radiation that is reflected (called ‘albedo’; e.g., by changes in cloud cover, atmospheric particles or vegetation); and 3) by altering the longwave radiation from Earth back towards space (e.g., by changing greenhouse gas concentrations). Climate, in turn, responds directly to such changes, as well as indirectly, through a variety of feedback mechanisms."
  • Earth more sensitive to CO2 than previously thought

    • December 7, 2009 SCIENCE DAILY – In the long term, the Earth's temperature may be 30-50% more sensitive to atmospheric carbon dioxide than has previously been estimated, reports a new study published in Nature Geoscience. Alan Haywood, a co-author on the study from the University of Leeds, said "If we want to avoid dangerous climate change, this high sensitivity of the Earth to carbon dioxide should be taken into account when defining targets for the long-term stabilisation of atmospheric greenhouse-gas concentrations."

    • >>>> Read the full article in Science Daily.

[-] -1 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

cut and past loser

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • said the big ZERO

bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .

.

  • [-] 0 points by monarch (0) 4 minutes ago

.

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[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Only a fool would believe a science article in the wsj.

Just another Murdock tabloid.

[-] 0 points by monarch (-5) 2 years ago

You libtards need some new propaganda material, getting real stale in here

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You have no idea what propaganda is.

None whatsoever.

[-] -2 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

Should be titled 'Watching Demise of Global Warming Scare'

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

In fact they make a very good case indicating otherwise.

And so does the current weather

right outside your own window

Maybe you should take a look . . .

[-] -1 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

i'm looking at a frozen lake.

[-] 4 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I'm looking at a lawn with a half inch of snow -

and the skiing industry is screaming

you should stay up with current events

cuz once the glaciers are gone . . .

  • so are repelicans
[-] 1 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

you are confusing weather with Climate, last year the ski slopes of California had record snow.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

we had record snow here too. So what. That is in line with the models - as are the freak dust storms and the increased tornadic activity last summer, not to mention the drought in the south west.

Deny all you want.

as soon as the glaciers are gone . . .

.

  • so are repelicans!

.

bwa hahaha bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

bwa hahaha

[-] -1 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

zendog , you are crazy, and like for most global warmist nuts, any weather pattern is because of global warming. Watch Cool It

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

cool it? did you just tell me to

  • cool it?

why?

because I'm crazy?

well guess what, fool

that's been said before . . . . by professionals . . .

and I have guns . . . .

scary aint it

[-] -1 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

No I told you to watch 'Cool It' the movie. not only are you crazy but you are also stupid.

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you said:

  • Watch Cool It

without the frame of reference that it was a movie or a television show, I naturally inserted an extra It into the statement.

Never heard of it.

the show I mean.

And why bother - when the weather is right outside my own window?

[-] -1 points by Charles99 (15) 2 years ago

Do you see bars on that window?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

bwa hahahaha

when the glaciers are gone . . .

.

  • so are repelicans!!

.

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

bwa hahahaha

[-] -2 points by DanMich (49) 2 years ago

Here is a video that will prove that Global warming does not exist in reality. Enjoy!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eSBTDq6BgY&feature=g-user

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I'm on dial-up, so that movie is out.

But I do live in the North East. Most of us didn't have a white Christmas this year.

Don't you ever watch the weather? I mean,

  • it is right outside your window . . .
[-] -2 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

I thought the hole in the ozone layer was going to kill us all, whatever happened to that?

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

It's still there. Last I had heard it hasn't grown significantly - probably due in part to our curbs on CFCs.

There are actually two of them, one over the North East, and the other over the South Polar region.

[-] -2 points by DanMich (49) 2 years ago

hahahahahaha another pro Global warming goon. Sorry but it is not happening

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

bwa hahahaha

and one billion people depend on glacial melt for their drinking water

bwahahahahaa

it isn't even funny

schmuck

[-] -3 points by DanMich (49) 2 years ago

Oh my God no!!!!! "The big melt" hahahahhahhaha Show me the money

[-] 3 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yeah-ya

show us the money

who pays ya to be here and lie like a fool?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

DanMich were you taught to be a tool or is it natural?

You Know nature or nurture?

[-] 4 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

he's a natural Koch sucker

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It is so sad to see so many marching blindly. Do they think that they have a ticket on the 1st space ship out of here or what?

They will be living in hell too!