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Forum Post: Was Bernie Madoff A Villan, Or A Hero?

Posted 2 years ago on March 15, 2012, 8:17 a.m. EST by GypsyKing (9780)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Given the current ethical standard of our investment culture, was Bernie Madoff not just taking those ethical standards to their logical extreme, and was all the anger and media frenzy simply that he robbed from the rich instead of the poor?

Goldman Sachs, among many other "blue chip" Wall Street firms,, have shown a utter disregard for the interests of their investors, and a complete callousness for the fate of humanity itself. So, in what way is this more acceptable thant Madoff's crimes?

The theft from the poor and the middle class isn't news, it's business as usual on Wall Street. Goldman Sachs calls these middle-class investors "muppets," and as for the poor, they don't give a damn if what they do condems people in Darfur to work in salt mines until they drop dead. These firms use inverstor money to enrich themselves without the slightest regard for inverstor security or return, and even manipulate markets for personal profits that bring down the economies of entire Nations; while none of this provokes federal prosocutions or outrage; at least in the world of the media.

Perhaps Bernie Madoff is actually a folk hero, unmasking the upper-class bias, and the hypocricy of American society today. After all, what did Madoff do that the rest of Wall Street doesn't do on an larger and more pervasive level, on a daily basis?

Did Madoff's investers actually research what he was doing to get those great returns? Did they care . . . ? No, they were happy just so long as the money kept rolling in. He could have been grinding dogs from the pound and selling them as food to the "prison industry" for all his investors cared.

So what was Madoff's real crime that was so different that he got three consecutive life sentences and all the other Wall Street crooks are scott-free, with federal bailouts and their own islands in the Antilles . . . ?

He stold from the ultra-rich, that was his unforgivable crime Among his investors were the who's who of the American Oligarchy. They can foreclose on the homes of middle-class mortgage-holders, who are Actually Paying their mortgages. They can banknrupt whole nations, so that pregnant women throw themselves out of six story windows in despertion, but stealing from the 1%! That is crossing the line! We must make an example out of him!

81 Comments

81 Comments


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[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The concept that money has the right to make money is not something we are even allowed to question.

When every other add on TV is telling Americans about the great retirement they are entitled to, after they have saved some money. People don't even think of earning a retirement income from their jobs anymore.

This can only lead one place, a few that own, and everyone else is consumed.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Too true, they will chew us up bit by bit.

"So what becomes of you, my love - When they finally strip you of - The handbags and the gladrags that you grandad had to sweat so you could buy?"

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Rod Steward....Handbags and Gladrags.......Gasoline Alley album.

Here's an updated video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iumiHCm_vTg

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Thanks, I put a link to the version from "The Office" below as well:)

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Darn it you didn't credit the quote, was it Dickens?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

No it's from a song, I don't know by who, but it's great, and it's the theme song for the British version of "The Office" the funniest comedy I have seen in my life.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Only saw a few Britsh Office shows, they are good. Maybe I only saw clips acually. Ricky has a great eye. We need our Fools now more than ever.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Here's the version from "The Office" I don't see a credit, but I love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SVHd-XNTgk

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thanks, reminded me to go check the music thread, that always is a good way to end the AM.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Or begin.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

true, hey got your account back congrats.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yeah thanks. Really has made my day so far along with all of the good and strong commentary by the supporters of the movements against corruption that I am reading here today.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

check out Chomsky, I was first yeah, I'm never first hardly.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Will do. You are probably rarely 1st as you are not sitting on your hands. You keep busy in a good manner. Congrats on the 1st.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thank you DK, you too, it will take a lot of hands to bulid this dream.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Good people like you reaching out!

In the face of adversity "WE" move forward.

Unleash the issues - feed the fires for change!

[+] -6 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I always really liked Monty Pythons Flying Circus.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, me too,they were great, especially Michel Palin. But, you know, I think Ricky Gervais took comedy to a whole new level in "The Office." Get the whole two seasons at your library, or where ever, and I guarantee that you will laugh until you cry!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Damn right, and that fool is no fool!

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I learned that from you gypsy ( : D)

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

: D

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

another Fact.. it's why i work so hard to Indict Goldman! .. http://bclund.com/2012/02/06/the-state-of-the-markets-2012-rigged/

.. Never let your Guard down and believe those who tell you not to Worry, when you are bleeding out the Throat!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Thanks, Marlow, and thanks for all the work you've done over the years!

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Ty Gypsy.. ( sorry for the delayed reply)... What has happened is not any of the 99%er's Fault. The corps and Banks want to point fingers at home owners who took the 0% down payment Carrots. We were Set up from the beginning in 2002.

..We know that now, but for the past 5 years.. being blamed for destroying our own economy .. finally woke us up, and now that we are educating ourselves.. we are Outraged.

..We have been victimized ... How do you Defend yourself,.. When you dont even Know there is Danger?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Nice site..the whole trading game is getting filled with con men.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Are you saying that people should not be allowed to invest their money and get a return on it?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Follow up to what's below.

In other words why should those who bought government bonds be any more entitled to their payments than someone expecting a Social Security check?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I think the main difference is choice. People have no choice but to pay into social security so I think that gives them a (false?) sense of entitlement.

Gov bonds, just like any other bonds, or stocks, or real estate, etc are choices an investor makes after considering the risk/return.

Personally, I would not 'invest' in SS if I did not have to because I get better returns in my own portfolio. Obviously I don't have that choice though.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I get zero return on my car insurance too, just like Social Security. I really don’t see how the fact that people were required to pay SS tax affects the government obligation. But you do make a good point retirees should receive all their money before investors do after all they made a choice on the hope of making a profit. If people don’t lose from time to time it’s not capitalism

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I agree. People who are able to stomach losses often make much better investors in the long run because they don't make foolish moves like selling low. If I sell a position for a loss, my wife will fixate on it even if I sold 7 positions for a profit at the same time. A loss is nothing more than a tax deduction in my eyes. Personally, I don't feel entitled to SS even though I do pay into it, but that is mainly because I am not sure if the system will even still be around when I retire so I invest and plan for a retirement without SS. Others may not be so fortunate though and they will have to rely on this system that they were forced to pay into for decades.

The car insurance example is a good one. Like SS, you are required to "buy" it. I guess SS can be viewed more as an insurance policy than an actual investment. Your car insurance is obligated to pay any claims that arise, people view SS as the same. To my knowledge, the only insurance policies that you can really view as investments are things like term life insurance in that if you don't die during the term, you can collect some return on your premiums, but it is usually a pretty poor return.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It is the Social Security Insurance Program. Pays death payments and disability, the sort of insurance you really don’t want your money back.

I do expect the government to pay its interest and my retirement, and it will have no problem doing both, if we go back to the Clinton tax structure, it will be tougher because of the Bush years, but I believe we can recover from Bush if we start getting rid of Republicans all over.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

What I'm saying is, return on investment is just as much a sense of entitlement as the expectation that your retirement checks will be paid. But in one case people all over Washington refer to people who expect a retirement check for which they have worked as having a sense of "entitlement" but we do not refer to the investor as having a sense of "entitlement" when I don't see such a big difference.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

What I am saying is that people should not invest their money with anti-social criminals and get screwed for doing so, while also screwing people in foreign countries and the environmant.

[+] -6 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sad trying to push saving as a program to a population that is largely living hand to mouth and trying to keep a roof over their heads.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It's not unlike Heaven, serves the same purpose really.

I would like for people to talk of the sense of entitlement that those who have money feel. Like Mitt being entitled to a $20,000,000/yr income, on which he pays less 14%, just because he has money which he does not even know how it is invested.

[+] -6 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

How much does an individual need to have a good and prosperous life anyway? Where is fellowship and community in greed?

[-] 4 points by GildasSapiens (266) 2 years ago

"The criminalization of the American corporate-financial elite cannot be separated from the capitalist system itself. It is the product of a decades-long process of crisis and decay, in which the ruling elite has increasingly separated its wealth-making from the production of real value. Manufacturing and the productive infrastructure have been decimated, while financial manipulation and speculation have come to dominate economic life. The working class has suffered a catastrophic decline in its social position at the same time that a parasitic financial aristocracy has come to exercise a de facto dictatorship over the political system."

http://www.wsws.org/mobile/articles/2012/mar2012/pers-m15.shtml

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Right on the "money" here, Guildas! And we simply must end the situation or it will end us. I cannot stress that enough! Now is the time to kill apathy in America!'

Please pass along the petition link from my post "End Corruption on Wall Street." Thanks.

[-] 4 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Ooooo... You sure opened the Worm Can on THIS Topic Kiddo..

First, you deny the main Fact.. He did his 'Deed' on a Totally Illegal basis. Hoping o not be discovered until he could move to Argentina!

Secondly,.. He was a 1%'er 'Sacrifice' in the time that the SEC was getting way too much attention by more than just Retail Investors! The 1%'s 'Take Over' Agenda was sprouting their 4th leg to Run the Govt, and World Bank.. So.. .. they Thru Bernie Under the Bus .. giving the 'Muppet Hordes' a Shiny object to focus on.. While they Slipped us into Poverty.

.. Bernie, Should have been the Wake up Call To Indict Lloyd Blankfein.. But the FEDs kept that from happening while the Tarp was still steaming in their hands!

Crime is Crime, no one know that Better than Martha Stewart.. Too Bad that lesson is far beneath Goldman, Paulson, Bush, Cheney and Summers!.............. There's your REAL Guilty group.. along with Bernie for sure.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I don't believe I said what he did wasn't totally illegal, I just don't think in essence it's really different from what Godman Sachs, Lehman Bros. Bank of America, Fanny Mae, etc., etc., has been doing. They've just been doing it covered by laws they bought from politicians, mostly. Yet probably a lot of it has also been just plain criminality.

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Gyps.. here:...http://bclund.com/2012/02/06/the-state-of-the-markets-2012-rigged/ ..

and, When you open my Web Site Investors4Justice.net click on the Goldman Sachs Fraud page...

GS is The HEAD of the Dragon. .. and it's WINGS, are the Bilderberg group.

.. ( have a great Day Friend)

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Thanks, everybody should click that page!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6765) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Good morning Marlow, it recently occurred to me that sometimes we don’t hear what someone is saying, because we focus too much on the words.

This might be one of those cases, but hey good morning, keep up the good fight.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Guilty for sure, but a scapegoat nevertheless. Even the 60 billion or whatever he swallowed was peanuts compared to all the rest of these guys combined, just peanuts.

[+] -4 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Marlow - Good Morning.

When the Greedy Corrupt threw one of their own under the Bus.

They erred.

Yep.

It blew-up in their faces.

Because the public is tired of receiving the one public sacrifice.

We have had a taste of justice and we want it to continue to include all of them in their criminal activities.

Talk about an action blowing-up in their faces. They thought they would appease the public.

WRONG!

They have only fed our fire for more.

Karma.

They opened the door.

Let them reap what they have sowed!

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Excellent post GK.

They definitely have something in common; lack of human conscience.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, there's really no difference but the legal statutes, the reality is the same. It's a culture of corruption, and it's like cleaning the Augian stables. We must have courage, tenacity, and above all perserverence to accomplish it!

Everybody, please see my post, "Stop The Corruption On Wall Street;" sign the petition, and spread it around:)

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Well , you have all three. And the evidence is in the writing of this post.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I appreciate that. Truth, justice, courage, introspection, tenacity, endurance. With these powerful weapons we will prevail.

[+] -6 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Taking direct action is a good thing.

Use all of the good tools that come to hand.

We move forward in a multifaceted approach.

TOGETHER!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I love those words, "multifacted approach." I think those who would limit us to one approach or another do not understand mass movements. Connect, unify, act, and use your imagination to contrive any means of non-violent resistance at your disposal.

People might want to see my post - "Forum Recommendations For Action." Then, get creative and figure out another twenty ways to put holes in the dike.

[+] -5 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It is good to have a creative outlet.

One that is so important.

People let your imagination and creativity run wild for good cause.

Common Cause.

Down with corruption.

Up with Health and Prosperity for ALL.

Keep the corrupt off balance and flailing.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Good post GK. Yes the irony of it all, Madoff going to jail for screwing the rich, while Goldman Sachs continues to ride rough-shod over our lives. There was a guy named Harry Markopolos that went to the SEC, and warned them that he was conducting a ponzi scheme way back when it involved just five billion dollars. He continued to warn them...they did nothing. I mean he handed it to them on a silver platter and still nothing. By the end it was close to a fifty billion dollar house of cards that collapsed.

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

GK, once again you have come across with a great Forum Post. Hit the proverbial nail squarely and solidly right on the head. There is no difference whatsoever. But Madoff committed the Unpardonable Sin. He dared to commit Financial Blasphemy. He committed Power-Elite treason and dared to rob from the Rich. Had he robbed from the lower-classes, no one would have even blinked. At worst, he might have had to pay a modest fine. But he HAD to go down hard. The 0.01% HAD to make him an example to the world. TRANSLATION: "You better not ever f--k with us, or you'll never see the light of day again. We will completely and utterly destroy you".

That is the message of power that they wish to send to the whole world, not just Madoff. They rule the world by fear and intimidation. They are no better than the Mob. They just operate a little differently (but not much).

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

YOU sir, have hit the nail directly on the head! Too bad a lot of regular people lost their money to him as well. But there is no doubt that he committed the "Unpardonable Sin," of robbing from the 0.01%, and for that he had to go down baby . . . d-o-w-n!!!

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Exactly why the powerful corrupt thought that Bernie would be a perfect sacrifice to appease the public at large.

Little did they realize that by throwing their Bernie under the Bus. They would energize and inflame the public to want all of the guilty greedy corrupt to face the same actions.

Karma may very well bring responsibility and accountability to life for the greedy corrupt rapers of Humanity.

You have just got to love it when their ( greedy corrupt ) manipulations blow-up in their own faces.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Yes, I must somewhat shamefully admit that the animal side of my nature does love it. But there is this deep-seated balance scale inside our brains that just wants to see justice prevail so badly. We are just so completely surrounded with injustice that our sense of right and wrong screams for things to be made right.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This has been building in us for years and decades looking for a proper place and way to voice it in strength and unity. There have always been small fights and small victories.

Now is the moment for the major Fight and the Most Major Victory!!!!!!!!!!!!

The movements against corruption move forward - Together.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Very inspiring words. But beware. They have learned a lot since the French Revolution. They remember what happens when the people get completely fed up. Now they have indirect (and sometimes direct) control over the world militaries. It won't be easy, but the fight for justice never is.

The world is a gigantic machine in 3 aspects -- (1) the machine itself, composed of all of it's various cogs (human and natural resources), (2) the energy by which the machine operates (aka money) and, (3) those that operate the machine and benefit from its output (Power-Elite). ANYTHING that interferes with the output of the machine will be removed/eliminated.

But what is the foundation of the machine by which it functions? The money. And money is sourced by independent International bankers. When the fuel of money is threatened/eliminated, the machine's output is threatened/eliminated. This causes the Operators/Owners to get REALLY upset.

This is the key. Follow the money. Focus on the money. Understand what money really is and how the Power-Elite/Operators use it to run their machine. Only then can the coming class war be fought with any possible degree of success.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What is Key.

Is doing and trying to do what is best for all.

Demonstrating peacefully and using our legal form of government and it's given legal processes to reclaim our country from the corrupt.

The military when you come down to it is like the country in microcosm.

Do not alienate its members ( our Brothers & sisters our Sons and Daughters ) they have been assembled to defend the Constitution and the American People.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

I sense there may be misunderstanding. To clarify, I am not advocating violence. That is impossible. But I am advocating that everyone understands the machine and the various forms of power utilized by the Operators. There is knowledge power, propaganda power, media power, lobbying power, PAC power, legislative power, etc. Challenging the status quo will initiate class warfare, but that war need not turn violent. Of all the various forms of power the Operators have at their disposal, the most often utilized is the power of money. It is the power they most fully understand and most frequently utilize. That is why the understanding of money by the 99% is the most crucial. In the coming class war, he who understands how the world machine uses its monetary fuel to operate will know how to defeat the Operators. The 99% simply must understand money on a much greater level than they do now. Just as an example, most do not even know what the Fed is and how it operates. Take that one single knowledge deficiency and multiply it at least 10 or 20 times, and you begin to see what kind of challenge Occupy is up against.

It is class warfare. It can be won non-violently. But people need to be realistic about what they're up against. Flowery idealistic phrases of hope have their inspirational place. But they will be insufficient alone against the world machine Operators who only understand one thing -- Power, and keeping it at all costs. They are relentlessly determined to win

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is why this Forum this Communications hub is so important. It is one of many gathering places and issues and education can travel out from here.

The slogans they are for support of a good frame of mind. To continue this fight we must stay motivated in a positive way. Form and frame positive reasoning.

We must also be relentless.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

Neither, he did illegally what others are doing legally under the guise of INC.. So....what's the difference?

He got caught because he didn't play by the 'Corporate' rules. Remember, they do protect their own.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, but it's all the same shyte at the end of the day, isn't it.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

Pretty much...

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

i think its funny the rich lost their savings, welcome to the club I say.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Don't get me wrong - Madoff was a ciminal, my point is why aren't all the other criminals doing three consecutive like sentances?

And my point stands; wasn't Madoff just taking the "ethics" of Wall Street to it's logcal conclusion?

[-] 2 points by GildasSapiens (266) 2 years ago

Please don't get me wrong, either. In general I agree with all your points, but I just felt we shouldn't lose sight of Madoff's human victims.

[-] 7 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I grant you that, what a scum . . . but damnit, they're all scum! The entire nations of Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Ireland are suffering for their crimes, not to mention the whole US!

When will we see justice and recompensation!

Why the hell is it just Madoff's in prison, and his assets are being tracked-down to compensate the vicims, while what he did was little different from Lehman Bros. Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Enron, etc,. etc., etc!.

[-] -1 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Bernie made the mistake of stealing from everyone. Including the corrupt. Payback is a bitch. He was a perfect public sacrifice.

Thing is now the public has gotten a taste for rightful justice and wants it to continue.

We will move forward - Together.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, it's for that reason - the taste he inspired for rightful justice - that I (toung in cheek) call him a hero!

[-] -2 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

HaHAAhahaha.

Ironic that.

Corruption blowing-up in the Face of Corruption.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

There is a certain beauty in the varriations through which truth will assert itself!

[-] -3 points by DKA4today (42) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Open the door for karma.

The corrupt didn't realize their error.

I like that.

Self destructive Greedy Corrupt!

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

DK.. See my reply above. . 'Ooooo'!

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This one?


3 points by Marlow (710) 3 hours ago

Ooooo... You sure opened the Worm Can on THIS Topic Kiddo..


I like.

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Well Played! TY

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (27673) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Helps to have good participants.

{:-)

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