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Forum Post: Us v Them

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 23, 2012, 11:08 a.m. EST by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

As long as "Them" is your neighbor, you aren't ready for change. Maybe you don't appreciate the subtle trait that makes for selfish decisions, but beating on your neighbor with labels is a sign. After that, you're no better than those you complain about.

62 Comments

62 Comments


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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

I appreciate the different tactics OWS supporters use on this forum. It would not be good if we all dealt with our opposition the same way.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Who is your opposition?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

You don't know?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Question on Question, Niiice :P

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

Well, you've been on this forum long enough. The opposition on this forum to OWS supporters are those people who don't support the movement. It's no mystery.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

That is it in a nutshell.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

And, I appreciate your own distinct way of handling them, GF.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Thank you BW. I appreciate that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

that only seems fair

this is a forum

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

Yes, it's an open forum where we are discussing what direction this country is going in. Many people are going to want to have input.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

There are going to be extremes, are you advocating to be the extreme opposite? That doesn't sound like a position, it sounds like "I'm right, you're not, I win". Give that position a lot of money and you have the same system you're opposing.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

I never said that I advocate extremes at all. I think the opposition has many faces, from just regular folks trying to learn with true curiosity to the other end of the spectrum of paid trolls that are trying to take this thing down.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

hmmmm.... well said.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21421) 2 years ago

Thanks. Your input and thoughtfulness is valuable.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

people are paid to post here?

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

That's the rumor, though not sure how true it is.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

me neither but a sponsor would help

[-] 0 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

That's the thing about beautifulworld and gypsy, they are anti-extremists to the extreme.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Thats extremely extreme :P

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

Almost as extreme as reaching 'Peak' usage of the word sustainable.

the theory that at some point in the future we will have used the word sustainable to the point that it will from there on continue to lose meaning.

Experts agree we may have reached that point already.

[-] 2 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

I think you nailed it right on the head, people are so hung up on labels, yet don't even understand why people self identify with those tags, and refuse to see their neighbor as a fellow human.

Once people start talking with their neighbors, they see that they have shared values, despite whatever political affiliations they might hold, and that they have a shared view that the system is corrupt by those in power.

The damnedest thing I've seen is when people whom claim to be the most inclusive are the most narrow minded and bigoted people out there.

If we are to preserve our communities it might be instructive to understand those whom make up the community, and where we agree.

But it's just easier for some to ignore their neighbor, thus furthering what got us to this point in the first place. Not to mention the thinking that 'they' are somehow smarter than them.

It boils down to hypocrisy, arrogance, laziness and willful ignorance.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

Oh, it cuts both ways, but the most common thread I've seen is among those that claim to atheism and talk of their 'more' evolved sensibilities. They generally degrade to wacko ideas and the most asinine theology of separation of church and politics. I mean really? They are that militant in their atheism.

So I wouldn't ascribe these folks with democrats necessarily, but only with extreme leftism of communism/marxism/ nazism and they become what they rail against.

DISCLAIMER many atheists on here are not of this militant variety, and I don't want to impugn their lack of belief. They have a right to non belief, as I have a right to belief, and when we agree I can work with them.

But when others talk of higher evolution, studies on intelligence and religious/ conservative beliefs, it reminds me of the nazi studies of the 1930's (the similarities in their beliefs in dehumanizing studies are striking)

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Why don't you and I just have it out on this thread, right here and right now? Instead of you going thread to thread as if you are talking about me behind my back. Enough with the passive aggressive games.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

oh boy, no, I avoid her like the plague, once in a while we comment on the same thread, but when I get ready to respond to someones comments, I purposely look to see if someone like her have already done so, and if so, I avoid it.

A conversation between us only results in more division, and usually is pointless.

[-] 0 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

I believe we had enough to say to each other already and my replies aren't about you per se, as many many many folks have had the same narrow mindset as you, and that's the point.

But my disclaimer WAS about gypsy and beautiful world, for they, unlike you, can disagree with a person without trying to dehumanize them.

Many times I agree with them, many times I agree to disagree with them.

They are the Ideal

Your the extreme

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I'm not finished but I will finish it now. You don't win a passive aggressive game. You are not a victim.

I gave you all of the information on that study when you stated that it wasn't real. I provided links that you couldn't find. I further stated (repeatedly) that the study looked at those individuals that were incapable of interacting with others and that would have correctly been correctly labeled as an individuals with an intellectual disability. Not once did I claim you were stupid. I did say that your research skills sucked. But, you weren't interested in that. Were you?

So, cut the shit.

[-] 0 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

If your referring back to that, as I said then, those data sets from both those studies were the same, from where, yes, I made a mistake in assuming your study didn't exist. But that 'new' study was the same as the 2004 study, which was a retelling of the same 2 from 1958? and 1970 british studies.

Yes, there were 'new' bs added that amounted to fear factor stuff, that I simply ignored, as the fear factor imaging had nothing to do with what I was railing against.

But that's not the point, never was really, the point back then and still is now, that that type of report is, and can only be, divisive.

In other words when you cling to a report that states that people of low IQ gravitate to conservative views and religion, then say stuff like you already thought that, don't you see the irony?

But it's NOT about passive/aggressive, someone was asking a question, I answered.

We already had it out, and will never see eye to eye on it, for whatever reasons. But that doesn't mean I'm ready to give up on OWS, just pointing out that narrow mindedness toward conservatives and those that hold religious views is what is dividing OWS.

[-] 1 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

Depends on who your neighbors are.This post is simplistic.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Back in December I posted a thread almost identical to this:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/them-vs-us/

2 months later, its the same mindset of " Us vs Them". There has been alienation, where there should have been unification. Afterall aren't the bottom line goals really the same?

There are loads of us out there who do not identify as the left or the right, but rather somewhere in the middle. Moderates, independants.. whatever the buzz word of the day is. Yet we all are disenchanted with the way things are run in this country.

Until everyone's voice is heard, no matter what your party, religious affiliation or economic status is, there will never be a coming together of unified solutions. Without including ALL of us out there who are affected, its just alot of hot air on the cyber waves creating yet more imbalance and division.

[-] 1 points by jart (1252) from New York, NY 2 years ago

There are loads of us out there who do not identify as the left or the right, but rather somewhere in the middle. Moderates, independants..

But there is no left in America

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I have to agree with every thing you have written, on a personal level. But when I envision the game of politics I envision Risk, a take no prisoners all out warfare and the weapons are verbal beratings. The reason I view it from this perspective is that I understand both arguments but only agree with one. The gov't is as much apart of a society as the free market is, maybe more so, but I see need for them both. Because the two sides of the argument both have validity, I think a strong, impassioned presentation by both sides as relevant to the compromising process. I guess when I think about politics, and think about the feelings of my fellow combatant, I can only say, "Stop getting all butt hurt, this is not about you" It's about creating a better tomorrow, your feelings have nothing to do wit it.:" If your experiences are what make you believe what you believe, then you should not be offended when those who see it differently mock your understanding. But I understand that this is a confrontational posture, but I believe it is a good tactic in political Risk.. I do have a better understanding of the political thinking of the right because of some of the arguments i have lost on this forum. And they, the righties, were just as partisan and unrelenting in their convictions as I believe i am when I argue.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

I didn't say party lines don't exist. But, there is a time and place for everything. This forum ranking high in Search Engines should make it extremely important to anyone supporting the Occupy movement to allow for those looking to escape their current affiliations to come here and see something they can get behind. Rather than pushing them to dig in with groups that may oppose Occupy. We all have emotions wrapped in the principles of this movement but it will take sharper minds to convert it into something more.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

That makes sense. I just have a hard time believing that people can really be so offended, I'm with GirlFriday" they need to come meet my neighbors. But you do make a valid point.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

Really? I've had many many different neighbors and can say I've had only one 'bad' one, and that was while growing up.

The 'bad' neighbor in question held the view that he had nothing but bad neighbors, even though it was a very caring neighborhood in a small town.

When I grew up, anytime I thought I had a bad neighbor, I'd do something good for them, and once the conversation got started (hard not to talk to someone when they mow your lawn, or bring over garden items) I found that they were actually just like me in how they saw things in general and became great neighbors.

Talk with your neighbor like a human being deserving of dignity and respect, and you may be surprised with the outcome. But if they are arrogant or snotty, then at least you tried.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I think you miss understood me. I have no problem with my neighbors either, but when I talk politics to my Conservative boss he calls me a commie, and I call him a corporate boot licker, and he don't seem to get offended. That's all i meant, I have no problems with people I meet, unless they are pretentious, then I have fun, but it's all good.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 2 years ago

Ahhhhh, LOL, yeah, when I've talked politics with my boss, where we agree on is that all the politicians are corrupt, and that I'm really not well at times....

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

You haven't seen my neighbor.

I refuse to play a game where these people with multiple IDs cry but have made no effort at all to engage in the issues. I refuse.

Disagreement does not a troll make. But, let's not kid ourselves here.

Now, if someone is on the right then they have the capacity to address the issues as all do. They should rise to the occasion.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

The trolls have no party lines, they will always argue the opposite of what you are and will use many user names to advance it. We do however have some regular posters that are republicans and do post with only one user name, and do engage on the issues at their own peril because they are relentlessly attacked. Even in the face of all that, they come on here and post with the same user name and keep trying to connect.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The trolls have party lines. I continue to get emails stating that I got my ass kicked by conservatives. I have received emails stating that the entire purpose is to make sure that no discussion occurs and apparently you missed the thread where nothing can be accomplished on this forum. LOL.

So, we have those conservatives that can engage in discussion and those that are trolls. Again, I repeat, they need to engage in facts.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

You don't think you make it obvious that you would be offended by party baiting? When do I ever get attacked with partisan arguments? Just say'n...

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Really? I seem to remember a lot of people calling you a troll (admittedly many of them may have been the same individual) not more than one or two months ago. Specifically that you are here to gain financially.

Just sayin'.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Exactly. Make stuff up because I have no clear cut party line. Look at the projects now. I have removed all the ads, pay for it strictly out of my pocket and never made a dime from the ads. If you want to lash out at me thats cool, but I took the complaints into consideration and made the changes to both websites. If you don't want to be as flexible, thats your choice.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I'm not lashing out at you. But are you asking me not to post information on Koch or ALEC because that would be demonstrating a side here?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

No, the Koch brothers are people that are taking part in corrupt practices, they aren't a religion or political party. ALEC is a group that takes part in the same corrupt system. There is a discernible difference between individuals or groups of persons engaging in anti-american interests, and labels.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Well, that is what the current ruckus is.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

I'm not saying to act like the get-along-gang, just choose your targets more definitively and with purpose. Thats all I'm saying. if that makes any sense.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The Koch brothers spend beaucoup cash on the Tea Party. To date, we have one Tea Party member (that I am aware of) that has actually been able to say.........gee, that is all jacked up.

And, I'm going to definitely act with purpose.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

This whole issue of "Us vs. Them" is what we have been trying to address. We cannot dellude ourselves that the Republicans are the party of the 1%. So what we hope, of course, is that many true conservatives will see that the party of Lincoln has become the party of the 1%, and will therefore carve themselves a new and authenticly conservative future outside of that party, There is nothing else for us to hope. We cannot deny reality.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34974) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The Republican party needs to be retaken by it's members the same as our Federal government needs to be retaken by it's members - The People. I do not belong to any party because of this kind of manipulation. I support good action taken for the good of "ALL". Common cause for the health and benefit of "ALL". The Democratic party is not all saints either.

It does not matter who is in office as long as they are working for THE PEOPLE of the USA. That takes guidance and direction from every one of us.

People get involved!

Stay involved!

Look for common ground and common cause to unite.

This mess we are in is real, it does not matter how we got here!

It does matter how we get out!

That will be together fighting corruption or likely not at all.

PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Exactly.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34974) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thank you FriendFriday.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

The Act was passed in the House by 357 to 66 (of 435) and in the Senate by 98 to 1 and was supported by members of both the Republican and Democratic parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

They've got you because they've got you fooled.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You just came up with a rationalization for writing off Republicans, rather than unifying with them toward a common cause.

FAIL.

[-] 0 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

Nobody here wants conservatives. To the Marxists in OWS ( about 80% of the members) the 99% can only be left wing. There is no such thing as inclusion here.

[-] 1 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

another Nazi rant a BS

[-] 1 points by jart (1252) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Anarchists are not the same as marxists

[-] 0 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

True. My mistake. I should have said 40% Marxist, 40% anarchist, the rest clueless liberals. Although it seems the anarchists claim this movement more and more for themselves. Perhaps something akin the 1930's Spain? Republican side of course.

[-] 1 points by jart (1252) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't think we're anywhere near as awesome as they were. They actually killed fascists.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

What is the point of any of this if it devolves into becoming an arm of the Democratic Party? Plus a few anarchist extremists. What's the point? Is this supposed to be about the 99% or is this supposed to be a left-wing thing?