Forum Post: Unify in a Clear Message
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 12:27 p.m. EST by george1
(5)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The bailouts to banks were a necessary step to secure our financial system during the 2008 credit crisis. Without the successful TARP program, our country and its people would be facing a much more difficult economic period. This money has been repaid to the government with interest. The issue we should be addressing is the disasterous decisions made by the bank officials, policymakers, and mortgage originators in the years leading up to the 2008 crises. The money Machine of selling, repackaging and reselling mortgages went unchecked and was persuaded by our elected officials. These officials felt it was appropriate for everyone in america to own a home, regardless of income or means to repay the loans. This coupled with the ever decreasing bank regulations placed a huge strain on our financial system, which ultimately broke. THIS ORGANIZATION NEEDS TO AIM THE MESSAGE AT WASHINGTON. WE NEED TO STOP SHORT TERM THINKERS IN WASHINGTON WHO MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY RECEIVE FROM CORPORATE INSTITUTIONS. THIS IS AMERICA, THE LAND OF THE FREE. WE SHOULD BE FREE TO WORK HARD AND BECOME THE 1%. SUCCESS IS NOT WRONG. MAKING POOR BUSINESS DECISIONS AND GOING BANKRUPT TO BE BAILED OUT BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS WRONG AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. THIS IS A WASHINGTON DEBATE NOT WALL STREET. Please post. People need to understand to be effective
"Bank of America joined Wall Street competitors JP Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs in recording no trading days that resulted in a net loss during the first quarter. 5/12/2010"
Not Wall Street? Explain how this is possible in a "free market"
Don't worry too much about having perfect list of demands right now. Here's why http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/
George1 is on the right track, Term limits a must, Pension ? absolutely Make em eat a 401k like everyone else Let them gamble they're retirement like everyone else has to
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater
Corporations are amoral machines. They are structured by law and operate within law. They have the ultimate goal to make money. To this end they evolve and adapt taking advantage where lawful opportunities become available. They have legally exploited our system of government to the point where WE THE PEOPLE are unjustly, immorally, and dishonestly - BUT LEGALLY - being drained of our wealth, dignity and self respect.
CHANGE THE LAW NOW, WHILE WE STILL CAN.
"KISS" GET CORPORATE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS AND LIMIT CORPORATE INFLUENCE OVER GOVERNMENT.
No matter your party or persuasion this is something all 99% of us can agree on and demand of our representatives - universally.
Responsibility can be written into incorporation law, so that there is a legal responsibility to do more than make money for shareholders. The current law required amorality. It can be changed. http://osbsustainablefuture.org/home/section-newsletter/20103fall6wolfstone/
For now I would be very happy to simply have accountability in campaign donations and restrict lobbying. pressures and influence.
Any step forward is good. If we got campaign donations and professional lobbying under control, that would be great.
Since the current law says only profit matters, that gives the corps great cover for what they are doing. I think incorporation law reform would help take that cover away and put a legal onus on them to behave better. However, whatever works is good. This is just one approach to keep in mind.
If we change the way our government operates, it will automatically fix the issues we are adressing here. Attacking Wall Street will not solve the problem. I'm not defending the Banks. I'm trying to redirect the message to the right audience. I thought "emeflag" had a fantastic post about Glass-Steagall. This is the type of ideas we should be seraching for. I think term limits for congress without pensions and lifetime insurance is another great focus.
You can't ticket a parked car for parking unless it is illegally parked Make it illegal to buy politicians Rendering wall street powerless It is the same business model as the mafia
The Bush Administration's TARP program and Obama Administration's Stimulus Package -may- have gone a long way at preventing a full blown depression. Since it is impossible to know what would have happened if these programs had not been passed, we should move on from here.
My biggest concern is that little or no legislation has been passed that would ensure this does not happen again in our lifetime. The "Glass-Steagall Act" of 1933 was effective legislation that separated savings banks from investment banks and it worked brilliantly. This act meant that banks could not use our savings accounts to speculate on risky investments. It also meant the big banks could not reap enormous profits through our money. This all worked spectacularly until 1999 when the legislation was repealed with Phil Gramm of Texas leading the charge.
If you want to send a clear message here it is: Demand that Congress reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act. The banks wouldn't be able to use your savings for their risky too-big-to-fail investments.
By the way, I saw a fun poster the other day, it went something like "Corporations are not people until Texas executes its first Corporation"
Wall Street is the correct focus at this time. It is the epitome of the very American dream of success and power. Unfortunately for us all it is devoid of ethics, morality or any human emotion. As an institution its sole purpose is the accumulation of wealth. When we call it greedy we are anthropomorphizing what is essentially a monster, a complex self organizing system. The Wall Street Players freely use their resources, which is money, not speech as declared by our courts, to define, contain and control Washington. Washington has become a tool of the 1%, why should we not seek the source of the money instead of its target.
Agreed Separate the corporations from the politicians Or it will soon be the United Corperations Of America REBOOT CONGRESS REBOOT THE HOUSE VOTE THEM OUT OR NOTHING WILL HAPPEN
http://occupywallst.org/forum/when-the-democrats-start-knocking-on-our-door/
Come down to Liberty Street and Broadway to discuss further. Here is the PROPOSAL:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/the-steps-to-non-violent-revolution
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
George, you can swat at tree branches or chop it out by the root.
Look one level deeper. WHAT was it that got lent out? Was it savings? Real wealth already produced, to be invested? WHAT was it? (Paper, the value for it stolen from our future which is now). WHERE did it originate? (Who has the power to counterfeit legally?)
If the people ignore this, they are only out there polishing their own leg-irons and asking for a different colored whip to be wielded over them.
is this Hank from SB? facebook and the Lois Capps page? I wrote you a pm before on facebook..
Nope, not me, sorry.
The message is already clear:
"We don't like it, somebody do something!"
The fun begins when somebody comes along and does something. It won't be Utopia, folks.
They should have stuck with this, from Adbusters in July:
The most exciting (demand) that we've heard so far is one that gets at the core of why the American political establishment is currently unworthy of being called a democracy: we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington. It's time for DEMOCRACY NOT CORPORATOCRACY, we're doomed without it.
OMG, this movement isn't being hijacked, it always was astroturf. A presidential commission to get the money influence out is a joke.
all you need is love... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WBHic2Ea_8
Free market means those who make poor financial decisions, fall to the wayside and those who make responsible decisions become elevated, the smaller credit unions did not require bailouts. Let's put the money with the mouth. Get your friends and family to drop their bank of America accounts to get their attention. Pass it on!
What’s YOUR occupation?!!!
Could be the message
These puppets think they can fuck my life in the name of profit.
End all offensive, profiteering wars.
Get these fucking puppets out of my government:
Fuck Bank of America
Fuck Citigroup
Fuck JPMorgan Chase
Fuck Wells Fargo
Fuck Goldman Sachs
Fuck Morgan Stanley
Fuck Lockheed Martin
Fuck Boeing
Fuck Northrup Grumman
Fuck General Dynamics
Fuck Raytheon
Fuck Halliburton
Fuck United Technologies
Fuck Anadarko
Fuck Apache
Fuck Chevron
Fuck ConocoPhillips
Fuck Devon Energy
Fuck Ensco International
Fuck ExxonMobil
Fuck Greka Energy
Fuck Hess
Fuck HKN
Fuck Koch
Fuck the Federal Reserve
Fuck all of you who seek to fuck the world. We will fuck your world.
Viva La Resitance!
we can no longer afford the secrete ballot
All of what you say is true. However, I think the most important point you make is where you say "decisions based on the amount of money they recieve from corporate institutions" is the most important. 1% buys their representation in our governemnt. 99% are left with the scraps. This is the root cause of so many of our problems. I am advocating to get all of the money out of the political process and move to publicly funded elections. Money speaks too loudly in our governemnt and our entire democracy is diminished. Is it any wonder that our country is in such a terrible state. Our democracy is in a shambles. WE need to get our democracy back!
Yes! Let's take the money out of politics. Corporate bribery of our politicians should be illegal. It's easy to tell which politicians are living beyond the means of their paycheck. They don't represent ordinary Americans. They represent the corporations that fund them.
If you believe it then fight to get our democracy back. Tell 2 people, 10, people, or more. 1% has bought the government, but the 99% have eachother, and that is worth more than all the money in the world!
April, I'm working on it. Took me a while to respond because I'm busy trying to spread the word. Lol. Let's flood the internet with this message. Our politicians have sold out to corporations. Take the money out of politics!
God love you MrsPhil
what stops this from ever reoccurring? Read my post "our true Focus"
Its what I believe can stop this political corruption that is the CAUSE of all of this financial corruption
Let's put the money with the mouth. Get your friends and family to drop thier bank of America accounts to get thier attention. Pass it on!
I agree and have a way to contribute to that process. I am founding a lobbying organization designed to represent the interests of the majority. We will poll our membership to determine where we stand and then will take that information to our elected leaders. The process will both give us the ability to establish a platform, and give us the ammunition we need to be heard on Capitol Hill. If you are interested, please visit www.lobbydemocracy.com to check it out.
Exactly, unify on a clear message, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Common interest: Rob Peter to pay Paul, claim moral credit for the theft.
One Common Interest: End Corporate Lobbyists
from there all these other issues can be raised, debated, and voted on based on our representative government weighted one vote per one citizen.
Corporate lobbyists serve the interests of perhaps 1 in 1,000 of us. with those numbers I can imagine an end to the practice. One issue, one focus nearly all of us will agree on that will open the door to all the other issues being negotiated with our common interest in the forefront. I think the next step in this process is for a single potent idea with broad support to emerge. agree? have another idea you think will do the job?
one issue. one basic question, do you like your democracy with or without corporate lobbyists?
The supreme court has decided that these corporate lobbyists have a constitutional right to make their voices heard. Fortunately, there is no need to shut these voices down. We are the majority and all we have to do is claim the power that is associated with this. there is nothing in the system that prevents us from doing so. We simply need to organize so that our voices can be heard. The lobbying organization that I have founded is here for exactly that purpose. We all pull together. We vote to determine what issues are most important to the greatest number of us and we take those issues to Capitol Hill. Find out more at www.lobbydemocracy.com
Organizing is not as easy as you think when you DON'T HAVE MONEY!!! Now lobbying is supposed to be sending a representative to tell your government representative that there are a group of his/her constituents that feel strongly about an issue. The only POWER the lobbyist has is the promise that 1) how that group will vote, 2) how that group will donate. No donations should be allowed to be anonymous. Corporations like to be anonymous because they know their companies are made up of people from all spectrums of politics. And many people would withdraw their money if they knew what was being done with it.
Ballot Access must be the same in every state in order to facilitate ORGANIZING. http://www.ballot-access.org/winger/iba.html
I hope you have a crap load of cash. Money speaks louder than words in our broken system. It's time to take the money out of politics. That is the only way the people will have their say.
Its very clear to me. This ex plains it perfect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN - YOU CAN SHOUT AS LOUD AS YOU WISH AND NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE:
"Politics is broken" ~ Senator Bill Bradley's public statement, 1995 when he announced he would not seek re-election, after serving 18 years as a Senator.
and 16 years later...
"The system is broken and dysfunctional...and everyone knows that." ~ Senator Tom Udall, USA Today 9/29/2011
"We Have Lost The Ability To Execute Even The Basic Functions Of Government" ~ Robert Gates - retired Secretary of Defense speech at the Constitution Center
"I think we have a very poor constitutional and political system for the 21st century. We have a system which was marvelous for 13 independent, loosely-tied states..." ~ Paul Kennedy, Professor of History (Yale) on CBS Sunday Morning (1/2/2011)
"People often note that America's political system is broken. Perhaps the truth is more awkward: America needs radical change, and it has an 18th century system determined to check and balance the absolute power of a monarchy. It is designed for gridlock at a moment when quick and large-scale action is our only hope." ~ Fareed Zakaria in Time Magazine "How to Restore the American Dream" (10/21/2010)
(the "awkward truth" is our Constitution is preventing a "more perfect Union!")
"Our Undemocratic Constitution: Where the Constitution Goes Wrong (And How We the People Can Correct It)" ~ book (title) by Sanford Levinson, University of Texas (Austin)
"A More Perfect Constitution" ~ book (title) by Larry Sabato, University of Virginia Center for Politics
"A non-cooperative game lacks a higher authority to impose agreements on both sides. In Washington, no politician is bound to reach a compromise to solve any long-term problem. Everyone, however, is playing a game called "election" and the only possible goal in that game is to win the next one. If you hear someone in Congress say, "Senator X is just playing politics," a perfectly legitimate response is, "She has to. Those are the rules of the Constitution." If we grumble, as voters, that we need to throw the bums out, all we're doing it subjecting a new set of bums to the same game. Anyone who promises to fix or change Washington is merely attempting to impose a cooperative game on a town that, by design, can't play one." ~ Brendan Greeley in Bloomberg Businessweek, "The Debt Ceiling: The Case for Caving" 8/3/2011
http://www.jeffblock2012.com/Summary.html
Occupy wall street needs to have a simple message that people can grasp and get behind. The tea party had success when they focused on "taxed enough already" and had failure when they let other things like racism and hatred of gays get wrapped up in it. The focus of occupy wall street should be: raise taxes on the rich, and end the war. "Tax the rich, end the war" is easy to understand, and would solve the financial problems of the country as well as provide money to provide social services. Tax the rich, end the war - don't get distracted with other unpopular moral statements, that will only weaken the movement.
So punish the rich for being rich? We need a fair tax system. That doesn't allow people to evade taxes. Please do not fall prey to the class warfare being perpetrated by special interests. They are getting us to blame anyone that's rich to divert attention from the very few who manipulated the system and made tons of money. How about "end corporate ownership of the government" instead?
Sounds good, FuManchu. Let's take the money out of politics. As long as the politicians are funded by the corporations, that's who they'll represent.
How about "We want our democracy back"?
The Bailouts are the CORE problem of our system today. What it has done is provide Corporate Welfare and the aiding of the very system you so despise.
Most people don't realize that their income tax SOLELY goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve System on money they NEVER had in the first place but merely ordered to print of the press.
We do NOT have Capitalism today. Capitalism is when the markets respond to supply and demand and Capitalism REQUIRES sound money as THE regulation and accountability factor.
What IS failing today is Corporatism. The merger between Big Corp/Banks and corrupt Govt backed by FIAT money system run by the Federal Reserve ( money not backed by anything)
Economic illiteracy is rampant among Americans and we need to wake the hell up!!!!!!!!!!
That worked well 200 year ago. If you would study economics a few years then you would understand that fiat money is a good like any other, and a gold standard would be the last bad idea Americans would ever have.
What fails now is wise government by the people for the people.
The gross misconception by the masses is that gold cannot be divided. Another misconception is that only gold can be seen as a means to back up money and make it sound. You can basically use anything of intrinsic value as long as it is agreed upon mutually and globally . Anything can be divided as much as one likes...on paper...
China and Russia are now both advocating on going on the gold standard and Russia has been introducing it at the G20. China is buying up goldmines right here in the U.S . The U.S is the third largest producer of goldmining behind South Africa and Australia through private mining companies.
If you understand what is failing today , it is Corporatism, Big Banks/Corp in bed with corrupt Govt that is backed by fiat money, money not backed by anything....NOT Capitalism backed by sound money.
Money is one good, gold is another. You can pass a law saying that the price of gold is fixed, but fixing prices is a very silly exercise. There are psychological reasons why money supply should be flexible.
What is failing now is not Corporatism, but government. The government is controlled by corporations. It should be the other way around. Corporations should obey laws written by the government. This is as if on your street people have no more say, only a rich businessman makes public decisions. This means slavery. This means robbery. This means collapse. Do you finally understand?
Pass a law? Its in the Constitution ;) That States can only take gold or silver as legal tender ;)
We have Corporatism today (not true free market Capitalism as defined byAdam Smith which requires sound money as described in his book 'Wealth of Nations). Adam Smith is the founder of modern day capitalism ,
And YES, Government is the corrupting factor in the link. Corporatism is when government merges with corporate power and big banks as what has happened today and it is just that that IS failing today!
If indeed is in the Constitution, then you should change the Constitution.
True free market capitalism as defined by Adam Smith is no longer feasible or desirable today (it requires slavery). We have a very sophisticated social and economical system which can no longer be reduced to Adam Smith, but it is based on Adam Smith. Like a car in relation to a carriage.
The people have to control the government. It is very simple. The government listens to the strongest force. The people should control the gov't in real time using the Internet. Politics is the only place in society which is still in the industrial age. We need flexibility, modularity, team work, real time control, customization in politics, too.
We have a very 'sophisticated and economical system' today that nobody can wrap their mind around its complexity anymore. This topic has been discussed in detail on NPR.
There are natural forces in true free market that make the market correct constantly.The minute man applies artificial concepts, the more they have to interfere...as is recorded as fact. Just take a close look at the last two big bailouts that have accomplished nada!
Yes I agree a hundred percent. WE the people have to have the power and here is my question to you..
Do you know that your income tax SOLELY goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve on money they NEVER had in the first place? No it does not go to infrastructure or anything else.Property tax , or gasoline taxes do...
Now this is the system you are defending. I am warning you...Americans are economically illiterate and it is the core reason we are being taken out to lunch today.
Yes, our technology has outreached our spiritual development. We have to grow up to avoid destruction. There is no way back to the industrial age, you understand that, not least because the industrial age supported a much smaller population than what we have today.
No, the free market is not stable. There is no god or market that takes care of you. We fly an unstable fighter jet right now. We need to intervene constantly. We need to be responsible. We need to govern ourselves.
I am not defending a system. This system is not stable. It is not working anymore. But we can't live outside any system. I warn you. You should understand a lot and responsibly take decisions together with your equals. If Americans are unable to learn fast about economics then they will starve. There is no force on Earth capable to save them if they are ignorants. They need to contribute with their knowledge and participate to the public decision making process (aka government). Times have changed. The king is no longer chosen by God. You have to be there. Learn to use mechanical devices, to read the papers and to vote. I mean, learn to follow the economy in real time and learn to use the Internet to control your gov't in real time.
True free market HAS to have SOUND money. It is the ONLY way Capitalism ( true free market) can work and is held accountable.....But we do NOT have this today and it is NOT what is failing today.
What IS failing is corrupt govt in bed with Corporations and Banks backed by fiat money .
The dollar is the world currency, and also it is our Federal Reserve System , the one creating this fiat money as they please that dilutes the dollar worldwide. Basically the U.S govt through the Federal Reserve ( which in all essence is not even federal but 'Independent') has a MONOPOLY on printing money.
This...is at the core of all our problems. The current system fosters monopolies in banking and corporations worldwide and it fosters the private profits made by the Military Industrial complex at the expanse of the U.S taxpayers and U.S Military.
It is THIS system that needs to be taken out and give sovereignty back to the people. Other countries need to be able to hold the U.S accountable and as it stands today, they stand no chance!
Money is nothing but a medium of exchange. Relax. Money is visible, but not important right now. Power is important.
You forgot everything I said and you agreed.
You simplify the situation more than you should. You confuse economics with politics (which is easy to do right now, I give you that). "We should make things as simple as possible, but no more simple than that." - Einstein
You will have to learn the hard way, I am sorry for that.
And I am not simplifying anything. I stated facts
1) its not capitalism ( free market with sound money) failing today. 2) it is corporatism, govt in bed with corporations and banks backed by fiat money ( money not backed by anything) failing today 3) the Federal Reserve has a monopoly on printing the worlds currency and other countries stand no chance keeping us in check. 4) your income tax solely goes to pay interest to the fed on money they never had in the first place ( the fiat money you are defending) 5) China and Russia introduced the Gold Standard at the G20 and are buying up goldmines right here in the U.S
and the list goes on...
Gold standard doesn't allow for wealth growth. Money can be backed by the productivity it represents. It is an IOU for goods or services. With gold standard the only way to increase money supply is inflation or somehow get more gold by trade or mining. Fiat currency can work if we stop printing at will.
As I stated, gold does not have to represent sound money. There are numerous ways to make money sound but it has to have general concensus worldwide.
Yes, what you say is obviously true. Only that I'm afraid that you are not in the US, while Dutchess is. I am not in the US, either. Do you see the problem?
I'm in the US. What the fed is doing now is exporting inflation by forcing other countries to devalue their currency to match ours, at some point this is going to fail.
Great!
Yes, but this is caused by lack of global government (not centralized, but global). We are closely integrated but we don't coordinate our policies. Big problem. Plus, the rich have too much power and undermine our economies. Or the poor have too little - they don't do their jobs as citizens.
Global govt IS centralized govt and the World Bank, IMF and the Fed are all ruled by the same!
Oh man, we have a conspiracy theory! North Korea and Sweden don't know, but they speak English!
Conspiracy is merely a word heavily abused. Conspiracy means two people or more getting together and planning something.
To the contrary...the word centralization means the accumulation of power within a central entity. Centralized power like in our Federal Govt.
You never read Economics and you stick with some ideas you don't understand. This is bad character. I explain to you the facts and you don't pay attention. This is worse character. I tell you to open a textbook and you don't pay attention. This is worse character. When you start to understand what I say you attack my good intentions. This is an even worse character. When I show you that, you lose reason and you tell me that when you plan a meeting with your friend that is conspiracy. Conspiracy theory is when you believe that a small number of people secretly rule the world. Losing reason is very bad character.
You behave just like the politicians you hate. You should start the change with yourself.
Actually, I read several books on economics with Friedrich Hayek, being the gem among economists of the 20th century who's predictions not only were materialized under Hitler but also in today's America.
And let me educate you on the fact that Economics is NOT SCIENCE! It is THEORY which can be manipulated in every possible direction. As has been discussed in detail on NPR ( National Public Radio) the economy is so complex because so many 'items' like derivatives, have been made up to make a buck at the expense of the public , nobody has a grasp on whats next.
Friedrich Hayeks 'Road to Serfdom' is a classic and he received a Nobel Peace prize for his contributions....Friedrich Hayek ( Austrian economist) directed his work toward the Intelligensia of his time. He made very clear that Civil Liberties go hand in hand with Economic Freedom and sound money. If it had not been for the Former Weimar Republics socialistic tendencies, and people had not all surrendered their rights to a central entity and look for govt to solve their solutions, Hitler would not have stood a chance to rally the masses in unison.
My 'friend', it is you who is not only clueless about history, but you are far from being the 'economist' you claim to be. NOT ONCE have you debated ANY economci concept but rather attacked my personae.
Next please!
Economics is science, only you try to manipulate it in every possible direction. Of course I can't be that kind of an economist. I read Hayek, and I don't remember him being such an idiot. Well, maybe he is. Great people make great mistakes. Just look at what he says here http://www.soundmoneyproject.org/?p=2110: “Indeed I must admit that–although I am a convinced believer in the international gold standard–I regard the prospects of its restoration in the near future not without some concern. Nothing would be more fatal [...]" He wants people to be different and to fit his fixed idea.
Here ...is the full quote ;)
In the preface to one of his books, Hayek wrote that “Indeed I must admit that–although I am a convinced believer in the international gold standard–I regard the prospects of its restoration in the near future not without some concern. Nothing would be more fatal from a long run point of view than if the world attempted a formal return to the gold standard before people had become willing to work it, and if, as would be quite probable under the circumstances, this were soon followed by a renewed collapse. . . .it seems to me as if we had reached a stage where their views [monetary nationalists] have got such a hold on those in responsible positions, where so much of the traditional rules of policy have either been forgotten or been displaced by others, which are, unconsciously perhaps, part of the new philosophy, that much must be done in the realm of ideas before we can hope to achieve the basis of a stable international system.”
I suspect that you read Hayek but you did not read the first grade textbook. Hayek does not teach the first grade textbook, he discusses pretty complicated and controversial issues.
Money is just a good following free market rules, and inflation is mainly a tax on the rich (those who have cash when money are printed). You should understand those free market rules (supply and demand), then read about market failures which determined all industrial governments to use inflation as an economic policy tool (I also dislike this, but the fact is people are not conscious enough to use better tools. I proposed tax changes instead of inflation.) and only THEN read about the controversy between the classical and Keynesian economic schools. This looks like a lot, but it can be explained in a few classes to educated people. Finally, you may want to learn about the Thatcher's experiment which proved clearly that people do not have rational expectations about money and plunged UK in a serious recession (she was quite stubborn). Hayek speaks about changing peoples' expectations, which is already sociology, not economics. In short, the problem is this: people will not accept that prices fall in a good economic time. You need to print money to fool them into an optimistic state of mind and therefore into production. You also need to print money when the state is bankrupt but you still need national defense, justice and all that, and you can't tax the poor any more than you already do, and the rich don't want to pay any more than they already do. So you just print money to save the madmen ship. :)
About the sociological side of the story, I posted here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-movement-fails-corrected/
Hayek goes into detail about the conditions that need to be set for free market to succeed. And no it is not as simplistic as a first grade textbook and it requires critical thinking and insight into history with regardst to civil liberties as well. Economic freedom and civil liberties go hand in hand.
Inflation is not soley a tax on the rich. It is a tax on everybody and it is hidden and its the bottom that suffers It is hidden in every product you need to buy to surviive. You should understand inflation first before you make statements that hold no merit whatsoever.
Inflation taxes the poor only when the economy is monopolistic and salaries are not increased with the prices, as they should have been. The problem is the monopoly, not the inflation. And the monopoly comes from bad government, which comes from bad civic society.
The problem is BOTH! Monopoly AND the endless printing! As a matter of fact FIAT money being printed endlessly aides monopolies. Monopolies come from breaking with the Constitution. Free markets require a strong legal framework and sound money in order to keep the markets in check and hold all sides accountable.
The problem is monopolies. Printing money is just a temporary solution to alleviate the problem and it can not continue unchecked because it would ruin the economy.
The monopolies problem took off as a result of globalization because we have a global society and economy but we don't have a global government. International corporations are able to play games with national governments and move from state to state searching for lower taxes and free pollution, for example. Also, international corporations are bigger than most states, and often they just bought governments altogether. Unlike governments, corporations represent private interests, and they destroyed our society and our economy. A global government should not be centralized, it should be distributed. We just have to cooperate to control these corporations, for example to set a minimum tax level on their profits everywhere on the planet. One way to control these corporations would be by using our new IT technologies, which generated the globalization in the first place, to control our governments better. We could monitor our governments' activity in detail in real time and we could take or influence some decisions through voting or polls. If we can do this in the US, which is a large and important part of the global economy, then EU and maybe India could follow suit and international corporations would have a hard time continuing their abuses.
You should not confuse monetary policy, which is a tool, with the power to control the monetary policy, which is a political power issue. Monetary policy is a valuable tool, only that right now it is controlled by corporations.
I want to correct myself: I said that a few classes would be enough to teach the basis of economics. I wanted to say that a few lectures would be enough. :)
One correction to start with....monetary policy is set by our govt and with the approval of Congress which is directly responsible for the Independent and Private organization called the Federal Reserve which is in all actuality not federal...but an artificial middle man between the Congress and the Treasury, unconstittutional and created so Congress could spend money without the public knowing it is being taxed........;)
Fiat money directly plays into the souring of monopolies world wide. Our Federal Reserve system has a monopoly in the world to print as much as they please causing for inflation worldwide because the dollar is the worlds currency. No other currency has been excepted as such. As Ludwig von Mises calls it ' government monopolies of paper money'.
Do you understand....it is the Federal reserve of the United States that has a monopoly and through endless printing controls the world economy?
The reason corporations are able to play games is because other countries are not able to hold the U.S accountable monetary wise.
I am happy you say 'A global government should not be centralized' I agree. Local markets, local govt and local populations need to hold corporations accountable and fiat money is at the center of global government..
Thank you for allowing me to correct you once more but I am hopeful with your realization of centralized govt not being in the best interest of people worldwide.
How exactly does the Federal Reserve control the EU economy by deciding how much dollars they print?
They can not control their own economy by deciding how much money they print. Money is quite neutral. If they print money today then tomorrow all prices (including salaries, which are prices for labor) will increase with the same percentage, and all will be the same like yesterday. There are important exceptions to what I said, of course, but I suspect that you did not learn the rule to which these exceptions apply. This is the rule: printing money does not matter. There is a tax on people who have cash, there is some time adjustments (for example, salaries increase 4 months later than prices), but in the end it does not matter. Your salaries stay the same while prices increase not because of the money printing, but because our global economy is falling.
Do you understand why local policies can not regulate international corporations? We need policies as large as the corporations we regulate.
lolll, where do you think 'their' money comes from ( the EU that is)?
It comes from our Federal Reserve and has the American taxpayer pay for it ! The Fed gave out loans to foreign banks at zero percent.............16 trillion dollars...watch the audit the fed jury is out!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-pav_yPFkI&feature=channel_video_title
Do you undestand...you are by far an 'economist' as your profile implies! Stop this nonsense and get an education!
1) capitalism is not free market with sound money. there is no sound money in economics. there is fixed price for gold, or for silver, or for shells. open a textbook. there is no capitalism in textbooks - only free markets and market failures. you can repeat what you like as many times, it will not change the last century of advancements in economics.
2) this is simplification. you don't see the system working as a whole. your money are very well backed by your economy, gov't, army. if they are not backed then they have no value. just give me one million.
plus, you mix different notions. corporatism is practically a form of gov't. fiat money don't have a life of themselves to back a gov't.
3) this is very good. it is a monopoly hard earned and you cash in every day from it.
4) income tax goes to the gov't to pay for public goods.
5) maybe you should visit China or Russia and see what are you talking about. There have been Americans who emigrated to Russia between the wars, can you believe that?
Income tax does NOT go to public schools...Property tax does!
income tax SOLELY goes to pay interest to the Fed on money they never had in the first place and merely ordered to be printed of the press
Capitalism as defined by founder Adam Smith is when the markets react SOLELY to supply and demand.Also it has ONE important requirement...SOUND money. Adam Smits "Wealth of Nations' is the definition of capitalism. This has not been practiced and throughout history constant efforts have been made. History had documented this thoroughly.
As for Corporatism...Benito Mussolini gave definition to it!
"Fascism might as well be called Corporatism,it is the merger of state and corporate power'
btw, I am an immigrant from Europe. I have been behind the Iron Curtain if you know what that means. I visited communist Europe most likely before you were ever born.
Markets always react solely to supply and demand, that is the definition of markets. You probably say that gov't should not influence markets, which is impossible, as you observe yourself, and it never ever happened in history.
No that is not true. Do you understand what the Fed has done in the U.S? Do you know what quantitative easing is? We have had artificial meddling in our markets and it is not working. The markets today are reacting to the constant artificial meddling and not to supply and demand solely.
There is no isolated system in Universe. We all influence each other.
The Fed has printed money like crazy to save your ass, but this is not a long term solution.
Of course we all influence each other but there is such a thing as...monopoly. And we do have a monopoly in the banking world. It is a fact and it is exactly what the Americans are demonstrating against...or the Arabs for that matter!
The Fed has printed money like crazy and oppressed interest rates...Not a good thing.Why? Because inflation in it self is keeping markets in check INSTEAD of creating the illusion of wealth.
Visiting is not good enough. I have lived there. You should have a good reason to open that economics textbook which i suggested to you.
If you truly have lived there you should be an expert in understanding what I am saying.
I remember how coins in Eastern Europe where made out of .....plastic ;)
No, in all actuality I refuted what you said. You claimed that we have free markets...we don't!
I am quoting you "
No, the free market is not stable. There is no god or market that takes care of you. We fly an unstable fighter jet right now. We need to intervene constantly. We need to be responsible. We need to govern ourselves. "
I did not say that we have free market right now or not. I said that free market is not stable.
We do have some sort of free market right now, with gov't intervention which kept it stable over the last decades but not any more. You have to learn.
Oh I am learning alright. I have a very thorough understanding of the history of empires, which we are today with a 144 miltiary stations around the world. Every empire has resorted to 'clipping coins'..meaning..diluting the money supply (which is what the Fed is doing). And I have correctly observed you support this system. You have come out numerous times in support of it.
And this is what you said and I quote "What is failing now is not Corporatism, but government. The government is controlled by corporations. It should be the other way around. Corporations should obey laws written by the government. This is as if on your street people have no more say, only a rich businessman makes public decisions. This means slavery. This means robbery. This means collapse. Do you finally understand?'
We DO have Corporatism today and YES it is Government that is the corrupting link by allowing the Fed to interfere ( The fed being anything but federal)
If you lose an argument then you should not lose your logic.
So there is no inflation in countries which are not empires? If Russia fixes the price of gold then the Chechens will be free? Are you for real?
I am not loosing my logic but it appears you are loosing the argument by resorting to ad hominum attacks...I was just going to compliment you on not doing so but am I now mistaken?
You have accused me of secretly backing the Evil Empire which you know from Harry Potter's movies and you accuse me that I personally attack you because I point out the complete lack of logic of your last post?
You have stated yourself that sound money is not feasable and that fiat money is the way to go. That is not distorting the facts as you claim and it does not translate in you supporting the Evil Empire either. Linguistics is key my friend. I do understand you want improvement.
Yes, terminology is important. There is no "diluting the money supply" in economics, but increasing the money supply. Very suggestive, anyway. The rest beats me. I simply can not make any sense of what you say. I have to go, thanks. Good luck.
But by increasing the money supply , you dilute its value which is labelled....inflation.
Don't you answer my statement on Chechenya?
You better say that you decrease its value. It's science, not literature. I understand what you say, but, believe me, you will not change the economics terminology right now, and it would be no improvement, anyway. Plus, inflation is not relevant right now. It is part of the problem, but it is not the problem.
I am not trying to change terminology, just trying to simplify what people don't understand. Most people cannot even answer the basics on economics. I went to our local Occupy Wallstreet event and was shocked when i started asking questions, I was met with silence... This movement has to know what they are demonstrating other than the symptoms or it will all go up in smoke and vain.
But you don't understand the role of money in economy and talk about it all the time. Plus, you confuse economic issues with political power problems.
I do understand the role of money. Money is a means of exchange that has to be mutually and universally agreed upon. And NOT to be monopolized by an institution like the FEd which dominates the worlds currency.
[Deleted]
where? I will answer...
This one (it was an edit, sorry): So there is no inflation in countries which are not empires? If Russia fixes the price of gold then the Chechens will be free? Are you for real?
And it is not about 'fixing' the price of gold. It is about backing up your money supply by something, anything...of intrinsic value. Gold happens so to be worldwide recognized. Ever heard of Egold? Which is now a very popular way of paying for things when international trade is done online.
I never heard of Egold. However, you said that there is only one currency on our planet, and I thought that you're talking about the dollar.
'world'.....currency...mutually agreed upon.
But as it stands now China and Russia have abandoned the dollar when they exchange goods between themselves....another pointer to support the facts I posted.
Not fixing, but setting a fixed value. Sorry for my English.
you are putting words in my mouth.....No, I am saying that ALL empires throughout history have resorted to 'diluting' the money supply therefor causing inflation......the historical term is 'clipping coins' where they would chip away gold from a coin. Say a dollar gold coin is supposed to be an ounce and now they take a piece away from it.
Our society is not stable and we need some changes:
People should gain real time control over gov't decisions, people should gain the power to veto large financial transactions, microsoft should publish its interface standards.
Alvin Toffler was right when he said in his book "The Third Wave" that our political sphere must follow suit and decentralize, rely on temporary spontaneus team work and real time discussions and polls to govern.
I was never in favor of bailing out the banks. I have continued to wonder since is how were so many of the banks able to pay back the money in such record time if they were in such a crisis?
Atticus hit in on the head with the first one - Campaign Finance Reform should be priority number one! Tell everyone you can about it. Without it the rest will be in vain.
Agreed. Our politicians need to start working for us, not the corporations that currently fund them.
TWO FIRST ESSENTIAL, MONUMENTAL STEPS! 1) No participation in elections at ALL for corporations is one critical step. 2) Tax unearned income (i.e., corp. exec. "bonuses" etc.) the same as the rest of hard earned wages. These two steps are absolutely necessary to change anything. Let's focus on those as clear, achievable messages, otherwise we lose this beautiful momentum. And these steps will be ridiculously difficult to make happen. We must use every ounce of this energy and what's left of our optimism to make it happen. Many of our various goals will be easier achieved after we do these two things.