Forum Post: Unconditional Basic Income
Posted 5 months ago on Nov. 21, 2011, 7:28 p.m. EST by ubi
(2)
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Basic income is a particular form of guaranteed minimum income, which gives all people access to some income irrespective of their current work performance or their past work performance. A guaranteed minimum monthly income in this sense is something which has existed in several European countries for a number of years, but basic income differs from the existing guaranteed minimum income along three dimensions: first, basic income is strictly individual, given to all people on an individual basis irrespective of their household situation; second, it is given to all irrespective of income from other sources (labor income or capital income); third, basic income is not subject to whether people are willing to work or not. It is not restricted to the involuntarily unemployed, but would be paid to everyone, including people who choose not to engage in paid work (for example, housewives, househusbands, volunteers, students, and tramps).
Funding solutions could involve a combination of the following:
- Income taxes
- Sales taxes
- Capital gains taxes
- Inheritance taxes
- Wealth taxes, e.g. property tax
- Luxury taxes
- Elimination of current income support programs and tax deductions
- Pollution taxes
- Profit accrued from state-owned enterprises
- A National Mutual Fund
- Lottery / gambling taxes
So you are pro-slavery, then? Pro endentured servitude?
You are for forcibly taking money from people who work and giving to people who don't, regardless of whether they could work or not?
You believe that it is right to forcibly take my work product and hand it over to someone else, whether they need it or not?
What happens when this system that rewards sloth and discouraged productivity results in everyone being poor? When my family has just one slice of bread a day per person, are you still OK with taking half my bread to give it to someone else?
I honestly don't understand people who put forth these types are arguments. Are you just not thinking this through? Do you have no understanding of human nature? Not familiar with history?
Honestly, this is the road to ruin. it's really not even debatable--there are mountains of historical examples of societies hwo ruined themselves precisely by pursing these types of policies.
No that is not what we are talking about. People who really need the money they work for would not be paying for this. Only rich people who do not really need the money.
If you are in the $50k income category or thereabouts, you need not panic. Take a deep breath already.
The reason you people get so excited about taxation is that you are afraid it will be done unfairly. Just relax, we will address the unfairness in the tax code too while we are at it.
I am confused.
How is taking money from someone by force and giving it to someone else fair?
I believe in charity and believe people should share but I have a hard time with using the word fair when you are taking money from someone.
If they called it a tax refund, would you be happy? You guys usually bite for that when gov't wants to give handouts to the rich.
I repeat, I am confused. How is taking money from someone by force and giving it to someone else fair?
Also, you get a tax "refund" when you have overpaid your taxes in your paycheck during the year. In a sense you loaned the government money for the year.
I am totally against any government subsidies and rebates. They government should not be giving money to Oil and gas companies, Sola, Wind, or any other energy, Agriculture... Businesses and ideas should succeed on their own.
You can get back more in tax credits than you ever paid out. Lots of big companies do. That's what your "tax cuts for the rich" often amount to - corporate welfare. But you guys lap that stuff up anyway.
Yes there are tools corporations have to defer taxes which they end up paying eventually. Deferral of foreign-source income of American multinational firms and expenditures which is the largest which is what GE used to avoid taxes this year.
The credits you are talking about are for research expenses because companies spend years researching a drug or product before they can sell the product. The credit has to be paid back when the drug or equipment is approved to be sold. The second largest credit is for low income housing.
Nice try, but no. Lots of corporations with no research division at all get back more in "cuts" than they ever paid out in taxes.
Please give some examples of this. Please list the Company, amount paid, amount in "cuts", as well as a reference to where the data came from. I would love to see that since I have never heard of this.
Thanks
No, I get excited about taxation because I feel that many of you and many in our government look at taxation exactly backwards. The idea seems to be, "Take as much as we possibly can from people, and then figure out how we want to spend it. Even better if we can claim the moral high ground by only taking from people who we decide have more than they need, or more than their fair share (whatever the hell that means)". This is the attitude of a government who feels that they actually own everything a person produces, and it is only by their grace that decide how much to let you keep. I find this an abomination and an affront to liberty.
The correct framework in a free society is, "What are the essential services that the people want government to provide, how much money will it cost to provide those services and then, is the citizenry willing to ALLOW us to tax them to that degree." If that is not the starting position of the government, then they may as well put a gun to my head, force me to work, take everything I earn and 'give' me back only what they determine I need.
Cool, more shit for free!
This is left-wing loon talk. Getting paid just to breathe the air is utter bullshit. Government gives you a lot of rights. But rights are about what government leaves to you to figure out for yourself. They aren't about what government takes from someone else on your behalf.
UBI, you are a parasite.
So you want to tax the hell out of us who already work and are taxed the hell out of so we can pay people not to work??? Ohh wait that's what is already happening!
Yes, yes that is what is happening.
The whole point of this is that it is not means tested. You don't get paid for not working, you always get paid the amount. Always.
It is what we have right now that pays people for not working. If you are not unemployed you don't get unemployment. Or if you are poor you get various benefits. This is wrong, because it incentivises people to be poor. You get paid to be poor or unemployed or injured or whatever.
That is wrong.
The basic income provides away to have a safety net without doing that precisely because it is unconditional.
sure... i'd like a basic income of $1M/year... what form do i have to fill out to get my $1M/year... can i get that direct deposited?
send me your address and I will send you part of my paycheck you lazy fuck
Let me get this straight....I work and pay taxes...someone else decides they want to play X BOX all day.....NOW WHO IS THE 1 % ?!?!?!?
how do u get those nice bullet points ? I mean u, for real how did u figure that out ? and not anything else :)
tax tax tax tax tax tax
I'm not Opposed to getting anything free. Don't get me wrong. and If anyone I know needs financial help it would be myself.
It seems to me your proposal is the hallway towards communism.
The American Union where we derive our daily motivation to work and succeed not based on an opportunity to personally succeed in life but for the Love of Mother America. after all, the more you make the more the government will take in order to spread out the wealth.
Redistribution of Wealth = Communism
not even viable, in fact ridiculous, preposterous, lunacy, but thanks for sharing :)
Cool so i can work and run a business AND get another check just because? Thats great. I want to be able to dictate the minimum level of income i need, because i just have to have prime rib and lobster for every meal, and i need to drink $400 a bottle of wine everyday, and of course run my air conditioner or heater constantly just so i can have the perfect temperature. And of course i need to run super premium gas in my car. So lets call my basic minimum $10k a month. Okie Dokie? where do i sign up?
Sounds good to me. I would like to quit working and spend all my time fishing. How long do you think before you can set this up?
By the way, one thing that I found curious in your post was the use of the word "tramps." Is that word still used? Is it politically correct? Isn't "homeless" the current term? My dad used to say "Hobos travel and work; tramps travel and don't work; bums don't travel and don't work." Are there still hobos and bums? (And whatever happened to beatnicks?)
Someone who wants to be owned by their government. Fools.
You will ruin society with such a plan. Why would anyone work? Why would anyone sweat and bleed for their craft if the results don't matter?
You want/need money,............get a job and work for it . The govt isnt your mother.
Programs like the EITC that have been paid for through income taxes are fine but minimum wages are not cool.
But they haven't been paid for! These people get more money back than they ever paid in!
That's the point of eitc. People of low income get money back instead of paying taxes. It targets the poor better than minimum wage
But they're getting my tax money for nothing! If they want my money, that's fine, I have plenty of tedious labor I need done that I will pay them for. But something for nothing is disgraceful and insulting for those of us who don't pop out ten kids without the fat bank account to pay for them.
Ok? Well, we have a huge income gap and we try to close it with raising the minimum wage, which doesn't work effectively. EITC helps to fix that.
Not every poor person pops out 10 kids. The point is also to have the program paid for instead of just printing money for it. I'm not really for this ows thing but its the best way to help poor people out with maybe the exception of unemployment
The best way to help poor people is to move them into government housing and give them basic food, shelter and clothing. Then have them work a full 8 hour schedule. 4 hours devoted to work that benefits the community (filing, janitorial work) and 4 hours devoted to education. If they want to keep their welfare, they have to play along. Drug tests and curfews are mandatory and child care will be provided for those who need it.
If you want to live as an independent adult without the restrictions, then you forgo welfare.
This works for me.
That's pretty dumb. Welfare isn't meant to enslave people; at least not ideally. Its meant to help people get themselves off their feet.
Your model will just keep people poor.
So, educating them and providing for them while educating them will enslave them how exactly? I mean they don't HAVE to do anything. They can choose not to live on welfare and therefore will not be subject to those rules. But poor people are poor because they make poor choices. By building better habits (in bed at a decent hour, no drugs, going to work every day, going to school every day) that really is there only way out of the poverty cycle.
Not everybody is poor because they make poor choices or do drugs. Stop making idiotic generalizations. There are people who just end up in shitty situations for weird reasons. There are people who can't provide for themselves.
Better habits won't bring you out of the poverty cycle but improving job skills will. Making them volunteer and go to school won't give them work experience.
You do realize that every day there are people landing jobs who have no work experience. They're usually new grads, either high school or college. The poor are poor because of bad choices. How many kids do you know who go through school and get straight A's, avoid drugs, and take care of their health; end up not being able to hold at least an okay paying job in the world? Sure you can become poor because you get really sick and have tons of medical bills or became disabled. But when I walk around the projects, I sure do see alot of perfectly fit people who have no real excuse not to be working. No excuse other than the 5 kids or the alcohol problem that is.
Thank you. This is possible with today's technology, communications, ability to monitor, remind, encourage, and treat underlying causes rather than pretend to address it, as private philanthropy all too often does.
You're building a class of lazy people. Why work all week for, say, $500, when someone will give you $400 to sit around? Whoever has to pay this tax you mention will just up their prices so we're back to where we started. We don't tax enough to pay for what we do now anyhow. First fix the tax codes and get some extra money before you start spending it.
The welfare system would be changed so this would not be possible, right?
Hopefully the money going to politicians will be reduced so we can get government moving again. Then we can reform welfare to prevent these kinds of obvious abuses.
Grover Norquist's influence must be stopped.
I agree that there is wealth inequality in this country and reforms need to be made but you can't expect to do absolutely nothing and have the rest of the world be your slaves. It's posts like this that discredit the OWS movement. Fox News would love to interview you to get everyone else in the world to think this movement is full of people who don't want to contribute anything to society.
Who says those being helped would do absolutely nothing? Where is this occurring? I take the medicine prescribed me until I am well. Don't most people try their best to get well, or find productive work, or live healthy lives?
A lot of taxes
In other words a Dole.
Sigh. People. Search this forum for other posts on this topic using keywords like "mincome" "universal income" "universal basic income" "negative tax".
This is basically a negative tax. That is another way to think of it. There are many examples of it in the world, and if you stop hyperventilating and look at the details for a second you will see that it actually makes a lot of sense. Search my username in many of the threads and you will see me slapping down many of the myths that surround it.
Society already pays people in various ways in terms of benefits of varying sorts, roughly 700 bucks per person in the US. This could replace most of that and be extremely useful for reducing bureaucratic overhead and also fixing incentive distortions that currently occur.
People would not just sit around doing nothing all day. As I said there have been empirical experiments on this and there is no problem at all.
I believe a civil society should have safety nets for its disadvantaged, but I'm not convinced that this approach would work.
We are the 99%. Why are we begging from 1%. This is silly. Wake people!
JOIN THE REVOLUTION Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM We don’t have to live like this. "Spread the News"
I like being rich.