Forum Post: TZM Response to "Occupy Wall Street"
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 25, 2011, 11:18 p.m. EST by Synergy
(21)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
"Wall Street and the Banking System are not the source of our problems. They are only symptoms of an Economic System which will continue to fail by the very gravity of its outdated and false assumptions of human conduct and environmental relationships."
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/en/blog/tzm-global/tzm-response-occupy-wall-street
I have to jump in here. The way I see it, there are two paths to go down and we are at a cross roads.
If we choose to go down the first path, maybe we change a few things. Perhaps there will be some student loan forgiveness, maybe there will be a few more jobs created and we can delay the inevitable a few more years. Wars won't end, we'll still be addicted to oil, maybe the Keystone XL Pipeline will project will get passed, we'll still be fed propaganda by the news media, choose sides, blame each other. In the future DRINKING water will become scarce, there will be more disease, pollution, we'll eventually have a one world banking system (This is no longer a conspiracy theory as presidents and the Vatican alike are now pushing for), etc... If we choose the second path, there will be an end to the monetary system, change to 100% Clean energy, all people who inhabit the earth will have adequate food, water, homes, mindless jobs will be replaced by technology allowing us to further evolve, most crimes will disappear.
I am a Christian and neither a republican nor a democrat. I am waking up to the grand chess game being played and we are the pawns. A few days ago, I was reading about the claims of the ZTM being a cult. Because of their argument against Christianity, I was leaning towards not supporting the movement as I will not change my beliefs. When the Vatican called for a One World Bank on Monday, it scared the heck out of me. If this happens, I fear for humanity.
I choose the second path. If you're on the fence, I strongly recommend watching the "Zeitgeist Addendum". Peter Joseph isn't perfect, nobody is. I strongly disagree with the last 3 or so minutes of the documentary as I see no reason for anyone to change their religious beliefs, but part 1 explains the monetary system (Federal Reserve) and why it will NEVER work for the majority of us. It is extremely accurate and educational if nothing else.
I also recommend watching "Future by Design" which "shares the life and far-reaching vision of Jacque Fresco, considered by many to be a modern day Da Vinci."
This man has worked on this project his entire life. I think that in itself merits strong consideration.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I am an atheist myself, but very glad to see a Christian posting here in support of TZM! I'm sick of it being made into a religious dispute when it's the system that is of concern! Some people find it too difficult to reconcile TZM given Peter's views on religion. It's unfortunate...
We should be able to debate such things separately, not as one entity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smqh7EemSXY
How the heck will a computer control the economy?
You could also check out this TEDx lecture for a 20 minute summary of the train of thought to a RBE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
Not an economy like the one we have today. Computers track local inventory and communities interact globally in a networking sense to allocate resources where they are needed. That is their primary "economic" function. Computers could track environmental conditions as well, but I don't want to get into too much detail here. You can read some of The Venus Project's technical proposals at www.thevenusproject.com for a few possibilities.
I would alter your statement slightly. Yes, they are not the problem, only a symptom. Our root causes differ. Money and influence in Washington.
If people actually knew anything about financial systems in the USA they would understand that this is more of a "human conduct" and ethics battle than public and fiscal policy battle. People have no morals in general. It cannot be assumed that the general population knows "whats right and wrong" any more than bankers and corrupt politicians do. The system will continue to fail until both the general population, and those in power start to care more for each other, and value the common good rather than just themselves. The mass population is guilty of it just as much as corrupt bankers and politicians.
That is true to an extent. But what happens when we replace the corrupt with the ethical? Will that be a permanent fix? Were these people just born unethical? What happened to them?
I would contend that the root cause is the monetary system itself. The profit incentive will always lead to this sort of corruption on one level or another. That is the primary root cause for these behaviors. That is not to say the profit incentive did not serve some very important functions throughout our history, particularly during the industrial revolution. However, science is now finding out that it wasn't the profit incentive that led to the innovation, as it actually undermines creativity. Instead, it motivated individuals to cooperate with mundane, manual labor tasks now on the way to being completely automated. Money is growing more and more outdated by the day.
As I outlined in a couple of my posts below, we are at a point in history when our current socio-economic system will no longer work for us for a multitude of reasons. We can make temporary improvements, but these are band-aids on a wound that will require surgery. We need an entirely new system before it is too late!
If the people refuse to let it happen, they wouldn't have the power to be greedy.
We are the Republic. Everyone has forgotten that. We have become a nation that is dependent on others for our own struggles. When you have politicians who got tried and convicted of the Contra's, STILL in office just jumping from one president to the next, regardless of party you start to see that the system is corrupt because the people no longer control it.
I'll have to agree to disagree there. As long as the motivation exists, people will find ways to cheat the system and be manipulative for their own personal gain until you take the motivation behind that unethical behavior away, but there are other issues as well.
What is the solution for technological unemployment? More and more jobs are being lost to automation. The few jobs that remain (creative/productive ones) are undermined by incentives. What are we to do when we have an unemployment rate of 20, 30, or 40% unemployment? Mass welfare? What's the plan? Jobs aren't coming back, and technology is no longer creating more jobs than it destroys. Factor in the exponential growth of scientific advancements and you realize how little time we have to react!
Our system requires problems for jobs to exist. The more problems, the more profit. The more deforestation, cancer and water pollution the higher the GDP. The sicker we are as a nation, the higher our GDP and the higher the employment rate. That is why our health care system is focused on treatment instead of prevention. The scarcer our resources become, the more money there is to be made, but the closer we are to extinction.
Infinite growth on a finite planet, which this system demands, is not only impossible but suicidal. We need a new system -- fast!
although I love your enthusiasm and your message, I am not sure what a republic has to do with Capitalism, two separate issues, two separate entities and two separate things.
The republic isn't responsible for capitalism.
One is a way to govern a people, the other is a way to run an economy. It isn't the same issue.
You said "We are the Republic" which I figured referred to our Republic. That is, the United States. And of course we all know the system of operation for the U.S., and hence the world. All countries currently are modeled around capitalism and the use of a monetary system. Even China.
You're right though, I did jump to a conclusion too soon as to what you were referring to. Could you elaborate on what your solution is to the global issues facing the human race?
Why isn't anybody offended that Iraqi vets are getting their heads beaten in by stupid cops?
If there is anyone on this Site anymore who Want a Peaceful way we Can bring About Change now please read this http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html this is a non violent Legal way we could effect real change
I keep hearing the world will end if there is a market crash
tzm is a cult , a fascist totalitarian god bot cult.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
Lol. Right. We're fascist, communist, jew-hating, zionist, illuminati, luciferian cult members worshiping the word of Peter Joseph and attempting to usher in a NWO one-world dictatorial government ruled by robots under a one world religion of atheism.
You got me.
The Zeitgeist Movement EXPOSED!1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4xVqL5ZQco
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
yep. fascism as defined by specific criteria, the most obvious of which is that tzm defines as public enemies all religions, all corporations, all governments, all other social movements, and does this for exactly the same reasons as any fascist movement- to create public enemies to point the finger at.
Sadly, pj is such a third rate researcher that he accidentally used a very alrge number of satanic references and symbols in his assorted presentations.
And yeah, its quite obvious that tzm falls under the umbrella of a "new World order" cult.
i again repeat. i will kill this meme dead dead dead dead dead here on this forum, because it is a dangerous and destructive cult. I will do my best to facilitate an exploration of its good ideas and confront the bad ideas on the wiki. Thats quite a lot more than tzm deserves.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/RBE_Groups
TZM = a group of individuals advocating a RBE. That is it.
Some members are atheist, a few actually aren't. Many members are as criticial of Peter's researching skills as you are. Particularly when it comes to his views on the origins of religion, 9/11 and other things. You might be confusing the films with the direction of the Movement itself, which is a separate entity.
If Peter was a devil worshipper (laughable assertion) it wouldn't change the concept of a Resource Based Economy. Peter is one person, a communicator, a representative. He didn't invent the idea. He doesn't own the idea. And he doesn't dictate the implementation. Focusing on Peter is a distraction of the core issue here which is the RBE as proposed by Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project. I am absolutely open to alterations that would make the concept more efficient.
The only thing worth debating is the concept of a Resource Based Economy. Anything else is an irrelevant distraction.
tzm = a fascist cult of top down hierarchy ad hom double standard pack psychology bullies, fighting for a fascist totalitarian state ruled by a robot.
I'm not confusing anything. I have spent thousands of hours trying to help the cult, and I am intimately familiar with it and its fatal errors.
i never said peter was a devil worshipper. i said he was so fucking stupid that he failed to notice he was quoting too many devil worshippers.
Fine. How shall we define a resource based economy? you know, thats what we have already? right? how about a HUMAN centered economy?
"all of the worlds resources belonging to all the people in the world" neat pop socialist pipe dream- standard fare for fascist regimes. Detached from science or systems theory.
How about NEEDS/Instincts centered Economics? that would be NICE. as opposed to TZM, which is patently a bully cult led by the sociopath neil kiernian.
Again. I won't dive into this on this forum. if you want to see this go anywhere its going to have to be on a wiki.
I will even let you pick which wiki. heres a list of them.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Network
I will not do anything on this forum other than put nails in the TZM coffin. its a dead cult walking, I am not going to help you try to resurrect it looking for more dupes to swindle.
zeitgeist is an anti-Christian jew movement
The Zeitgeist films (the views and artistic expression of Peter Joseph) are critical of religion as a whole. Both Christianity and Judaism. The Movement itself has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. The whole purpose of TZM is the advocation of an alternative global "economic" system. Using science instead of politics to arrive at decisions free of ideological bias. And to facilitate technological innovation without having to worry about its effects on employment (technological unemployment) which are inevitable, and so on.
Anyone that bothers to look into it will see that.
Boy, you Zeitgeisters never quit, do you? How many times do you have to be told OWS is not about to endorse TZM? Quit trying to ride the coattails of this movement for the free publicity and your own personal gains. My opinion of TZM notwithstanding, the aim of OWS is to fix the problem inherent in our own political system first, not some grand BS plan to reshape the entire world. Baby steps, Synergy, baby steps. Take that TZM shit back to your own websites. And, yes, I've already done some research on it so don't respond with the hateful diatribe I've already heard assuming I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't agree with it.
When did I ask for OWS to endorse TZM? I'm here to exchange ideas. My argument is that patchwork won't work anymore due to the exponential growth of technological progression. What is the OWS solution to the accelerating process of technological unemployment?
Also, if you haven't noticed, OWS has gone global. The issues that affect Americans, affect the world. And, in the end, we are all human beings. Real, living, breathing, feeling creatures. Unlike the imaginary boundaries and economic games we have created.
Listen, I have nothing against TZM, don't get me wrong. But the scope of your ideas is way too big for OWS to get on board. I know you guys think your plan will overcome most of the shortfalls of the world, but it's not doable in a year or two. Not even close. What I suggested to one of the other guys is, when you have a working model that sustains itself for a period of time, say five or ten years, and I mean a 100% self-sustaining community, I can guarantee you your numbers will skyrocket. As it stands, you don't have a working model and you've been at it 40 years. OWS isn't about changing the world per se (I know the movement is worldwide), it's primary focus is here in Washington and Wall Street. When we get certain things accomplished here, then we expand our scope. As you know, the power structure here in Washington is deeply entrenched and extremely powerful. We have to fix that first. The effects will then ripple across the planet. Like they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.
Thanks for the respectful response. I completely understand what you mean.
However, I don't feel it is wrong to express alternatives within OWS. That's the point of OWS, isn't it? We're all here for the same reasons, but there are many varying viewpoints on what should be done.
Unfortunately we are at a point in time when patchwork will no longer suit us. There are opportunities to improve the system temporarily, but there is no possibility of fixing it. Technological Unemployment is a big reason why. Jobs aren't coming back. What are we to do when the unemployment rate reaches 20, 30 or 40% unemployment? Mass welfare? Getting the money out of politics won't solve this. Ending the Fed won't solve this. (But believe me, I am all for both!!! They are band-aids on a wound that will require surgery later!)
Incentives work on mundane tasks, but undermine creative ones (see Dan Pink's TEDTalk on youtube called "The Surprising Science of Motivation", the more entertaining RSAnimate version, or look up peer reviewed studies on incentives yourself as I have)
Mundane tasks are being automated, or are soon to be.
Creative occupations remain, but are undermined by incentives.
Knowing those 3 points, and seeing how we are running out of jobs for not just the American people, but the human race (this is a global issue), we need to start planning for an alternative economic system that facilitates this exponential growth of technological innovation while not punishing the population by destroying jobs.
Another problem has to do with consumerism, which Capitalism requires. Infinite growth on a finite planet is the real fantasy here. We are living in exponential times, but thinking linearly and traditionally. If we were growing a bacteria culture in a cup that took 60 seconds to cover the whole cup, at 55 seconds just 3% of the cup would be full. That is exponential growth for you! We need to start planning ahead now or else we will pay the consequences much sooner than anyone seems to think. Old world methods won't solve new world problems.
And regardless of who you bring to justice over corrupted business practices, you will never solve the problem of greed so long as money is involved. It isn't the people (modern science backs this up quite definitively when it comes to environmental influences and epi-genetic effects), it is the tendency brought on by the incentive and the consumer values perpetuated by necessity by the system in which we live. These are not human tendencies, these are not genetic tendencies, these are learned, environmental tendencies.
I think it is worth discussing within the context of the OWS protests. The grievances are the same, the solutions vary. It is healthy, indeed imperative, to discuss alternatives.
A well thought out and informative response. In fact, I can find no fault in it. The fact that technological innovations will continue to displace human workers is indeed a concern. We can't stop that nor should we. Gutenberg's printing press was arguably one of the greatest inventions ever devised yet was destroyed countless times as it spread across Europe by the very people it put out of work, the scribes, yet no one would ever say that "infernal machine" should never have been built.
Something to consider, on another note, is any significant depopulation, via war or disease, would, at least for a time, minimize the problem of mass unemployment. Chillingly, there are plans being bandied about addressing that very thing, but that's a subject worthy of a whole different discussion.
Now, consider money was completely abolished and society was entirely resource-based. I have a hypothetical scenario for you and would like your feedback. Many people are materialistic. Now, I don't mean in the sense of blatant consumerism (keeping up with the Jones) or outright greed. We like "stuff." Take me, for example. I'm a collector. I collect books. I have a collection of antique movie cameras. I have Victorian prints. Let's take the books as my example. Say I'm collecting Mark Twain first editions and I have every one except a first edition first printing of "Huck Finn." I would like to complete the collection of course and I know someone who has two copies. Without money, how am I to persuade him to part with one of his copies? Now, you could say by bartering but assume I have nothing (including my physical labor) that he's interested in. Also assume he no more wants to part with his beloved book any more than I would. How would your society deal with such a scenario? Let me also say that I, and most true collectors, don't collect things for the monetary value since I never intend to sell them.
One last thing. After reading your responses I will no longer tell you guys to take your RBE ideas to another site. You were polite (unlike the last guy I spoke with), well-informed and sincere.
Great question. It is one I have received many times, and contemplated myself. The short answer is that there is no immediate resolution. But you have got to ask yourself when considering such problems: Would this problem result in the collapse of the proposed system as a whole? Not only would I say no, but I would also argue that it would be a relatively minor issue that would dissipate with time.
All collectors share a common personality trait. That is, the value of ownership. This value is a product of the system they were indoctrinated into. It is learned. In a RBE, the value of ownership would dissipate rapidly to the point where ownership is not only unpopular, but a burden. Future generations would find it difficult to relate to such primitive values, assuming a condition of abundance and open access.
Now, to be clear, I am not advocating we abolish ownership. This is a VERY common misunderstanding. People can own whatever they want. Certainly early on people would wish to safeguard their personal belongings, but if all items are produced in abundance and provided for free, once people get used to that they will find it a burden to maintain a ton of "stuff". As a side note, I think George Carlin put it well on this topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac
But we are talking about collectors items. Not just any old "stuff". Of course, as I mentioned before, there is no immediate resolution. Even in a monetary system acquiring collectors items from someone else that values the item as much as you do can be next to impossible. But, what would you say to someone wanting to "own" the Constitution of the United States? Surely, you would consider that a rather insulting idea? Wouldn't it be best for such an article to be stored in a museum? Shouldn't it belong to the people as a whole? An article of history?
Sure, someone could steal it, but what would be the purpose? They would only have a motive to steal if they valued ownership. In a RBE such values would be phased out, as described earlier. Why steal something you can visit every day? What's the REAL difference?
Of course, that is my personal take on the issue, which may not be representative of the views of all RBE advocates. But, I hope that helped answer your question. It might not be the answer you wanted, and perhaps there are other aspects I could elaborate on or was not clear? Let me know.
I assume you're not a collector yourself? It's not as simple as merely the value of ownership. Really it's deeper. A lot of it, especially the collecting of antiques, is in the beauty and craftsmanship of the items, a beauty, quality, or style impossible to find in anything created now. It's more than just saying "look what I have." It's in touching something that has history. Consider owning a book that was in Isaac Newton's personal library (I just saw one come up for sale at a recent auction) with some personal notes by him jotted in the page margins. As a lover of both history and books, imagine someone like me holding that and realizing that one of the greatest minds in history also held this book in his very hands. It's deeply emotional, visceral. It's something some people (like my ex-wife) cannot understand. I'm not sure it's something mankind will ever lose. And as for George Carlin. Absolute genius, by far one of my favorite comedians of all time. I've watch him and listened to his LP's since the late '60's. He is truly missed.
all very good points, none of which are meaningfully answered or resolved by tzm. tzm is not an alternative, it is a dead end. I am certainly willing to explore the good ideas it has, on the wiki, and have created a space for that. I am not interested in promoting or even exploring that in this forum with trolls, the complexity of the issues and the assorted fatal errors of tzm mean that my only strategic options here are to come down on this like a foot on a bug. I don't like having to be like that. But tzm is a clear and present danger to society, and it is a clear and present distraction in this forum.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/RBE_Groups
not interested in exchanging ideas on this level. not interested in the distractions provided by tzm. not interested in the cult, not interested in seeing the cult find mor edupes. And thats what this is really all about. tzm is running out of dupes as it alienates anyone whos got sense, and even the ones who don't. Its a doomed pathetic infantile con scam, which has been unmasked by the actual information and light workers, and you are here to promote it precisely because its membership is dwindling due to the fact that its a stupid evil log jam- not helpful to solutions.
still looking forward to the use of science instead of pipe dreams and ideology. for people who say they like science so much, what prevents them from bothering to crack open any textbooks? they are anti science, anti truth, and knowledge, and are ideologues and anti religious trolls.
Forget about TZM, since you are so determined to generalize.
Suppose a Resource Based Economy is my idea. Suppose I have no affiliation with or knowledge of The Zeitgeist Movement.
Care to actually criticize what actually matters? Such as, why a RBE would not work, and what a saner alternative would be? I'm all ears.
Otherwise, you're just spewing hatred.
it would be better at this point for you to respond to the previous posts i have made.
i will again repeat. I'm not opposed to having a diplomatic discussion over this with you. but i won't do that in this forum.
in this forum my only responsibility must be to shoot down the cult.
sorry if thats harsh, but thats the way its got to be.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Network