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Forum Post: Turns Out Virginia Is Not For Lovers After All!

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 18, 2012, 12:50 p.m. EST by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I trust most here are up to speed on this ultrasound probe requirement law. I've cut and pasted an article from ABC News here for the few who aren't.

I think that having an abortion would be a physically and emotionally difficult thing for one to subject one's self to. Having to endure the insertion of a probe "to verify a first trimester pregnancy" when other methods of verification have been used in the past only serves to humiliate the woman.

Feb 18, 2012 8:00am

Virginia Likely to Require Ultrasound for Abortion

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Virginia is set to add itself to a list of seven states that require woman to get an ultrasound before receiving an abortion.

Kristi Hamrick, a spokeswoman for American’s United for Life, said that the issue surrounding the Virginia bill is not “some kind of political phenomenon,” but instead “about a life-saving test.”

“Ultrasounds are the gold standard in medical care for pregnant woman,” Hamrick said. “Woman have died from abortion-inducing drugs, when there is an ectopic pregnancy, for example. It is vital to protect woman’s health, and ultrasounds are absolutely vital for protecting woman’s health, for determining how far along is the pregnancy.”

Amy Bryant, an OB/GYN at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill who offers abortions as part of her practice, said, however, that, “there is no absolute medical necessity for this,” and the determination to do an abortion, “should be at the physician’s discretion.”

“Physicians that do abortions are fully medically trained and know when it’s indicated to do an ultrasound or not, and do it accordingly,” Bryant said. “And sometimes, women present for abortion having had an ultrasound elsewhere. Requiring them to have this specific kind of ultrasound prior to an abortion can be stressing, can be unnecessary… and, in my opinion, should not be mandated in such a way that it might not be medically necessary for a particular patient.”

Hamrick, however, said, “determining what is sound medical care, is absolutely of interest to states,” adding that state oversight, “happens in a number of other settings, not just this one.”

The law would require a woman, without her consent, to receive an ultrasound and give her ”an opportunity to view the ultrasound image of her fetus prior to the abortion,” an option she can decline.

Many women receive abortion very early in their pregnancies, which would mean that, in some cases, a trans-vaginal ultrasound would be required.

Bryant described it as an invasive procedure, where a probe goes inside the vagina to see the pregnancy, adding that, “every woman who has had an abortion thinks long and hard about the decision she’s making and does not need [a] state-mandated, coercive procedure to try and help dissuade her from having an abortion.”

But proponents of the bill such as Hamrick argue, “This is important to protect women’s health.”

“Tell me the type of situation when a woman would say, ‘I want to risk my life’,” she said.

The cost for the procedure could be left to the woman, because insurance would be unlikely to cover it. It can range in price, averaging a few hundred dollars.

The bill, which passed the Virginia Senate two weeks ago, will be voted on by the state house on Monday and is expected to fully pass because an equivalent bill was introduced and passed in the house just this week.

In a prepared statement, Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell, a Republican, told ABC News he supports “the concept that a woman should have all of the information possible before she makes a decision about terminating a pregnancy” and will, therefore, sign the bill into law.

Opponents of the measure argue that would be a mistake.

“They are taking us back generations,” Virginia state Sen. Janet Howell said. “Virginia has been known as a moderate state, a pro-business state, and now we are turning dramatically backwards. Nobody can say these are moderate views and I think it’s going to be discouraging to woman and families who want to move to Virginia for business purposes.”

Howell introduced an amendment to the bill that failed which would have required men to receive a digital rectal exam and cardiac stress test before they would be able to be prescribed erectile dysfunction medications such as Viagra and Cialis.

“I was fed up with the way woman’s rights were being trampled in Virginia,” Howell said. “We didn’t have the votes to stop the bill, so I thought I’d use satire and bring a little gender equity to the situation.”

State senators Jill Vogel and Ralph K. Smith, sponsors of the bill, could not be reached for comment by ABC News.

Another bill that passed the Virginia house but not yet made its way to Senate would provide rights to “unborn children at every stage of development,” thereby effectively making certain kinds of contraception illegal, as well as abortion.

“The General Assembly is dangerously close to making Virginia the first state in the country to grant personhood rights to fertilized eggs,” said Tarina Keene of NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia.

Gov. McDonnell, a socially conservative Roman Catholic, has taken no position on the personhood bill, said his spokesman, J. Tucker Martin.

Del. Joseph Morrissey, the state house Democrats’ sharp-tongued point man, was twice rebuked by house Speaker Bill Howell for calling the GOP majority hypocritical in advancing the abortion bills while contending the state has no business urging young girls to be vaccinated against a virus that can later cause cervical cancer.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, there are currently seven states that require an ultrasound prior to an abortion – Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas.

In Texas, a U.S. federal judge recently upheld a part of the law that would also require providers to describe and/or show a woman images of her fetus and require her to listen to the fetal heartbeat. The same law currently exists in North Carolina and Oklahoma, but is not being enforced.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

86 Comments

86 Comments


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[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

To all the men who support government enforced rape:
How about a law that requires all men undergoing a vasectomy
to have local anesthetic and must WATCH the procedure.

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

How bout they just shut their Pie Holes and stop making this about 'Vaginas'!

Women are NOT a Piece of Meat that men can go around making up laws to do with something most dont even understand!

Does it take for a Man to get Raped by another to Finally See Women thru Empathetic Eyes?

Women.... Tell All the Men and Boys you know.. if they think they have a Voice in this... They have NEVER been more Mistaken, or Misguided!

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I did it that way, though it isn't legally required that I did. So, I take your point.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

I live in VA and it's definitely not a ' commonwealth' - more like a common poor and a bunch of radical neocons and religious fundamentalists.HELP!

I always thought that an ultrasound was typically required anyway ( whether a woman was choosing abortion or not) because it was necessary to determine where the embryo is relative to the uterus. If for example, the pregnancy were ectopic, then an abortion would not work anyway and the mother's life would be in jeopardy. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this recent ' requirement' is an attempt to patronize the repubs and other prolifers??? . Hope I'm making sense here.

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

The ultrasonic exam required in Virginia will be trans-vaginal, which is accomplished by means of insertion of a sound wave generating and receiving probe into the vagina itself as opposed to an external ultrasound, which as you know is done on the abdomen outside of the woman's body. I believe that in the past, if a medical technicial performing the external ultrasound couldn't get a clear enough picture the patient would be presented with the option of a trans-vaginal ultrasound. The option in now gone as is the external ultrasound method for 1st trimester pregnacies for women seeking termination of their pregnacy, if I'm understanding it correctly and I think I am.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

rape is rape even if men in virginia make it legal

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Bensdad, you are correct sir!

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Interesting. I wonder what the heck difference it makes whether it's ultrasound or trans vaginal? I've had both procedures done. However, I can tell you that from experience, the transvaginal ultrasound most usually requires that the patient visit a radiology clinic. Some doctors do have it in their clinics but it's more typical that they send you to their ' network friends' for those ' special' procedures. You're correct that a transvaginal does provide more detail ...as was needed in my case ( ovarian cancer- not preg) It's much more costly and again this all trickles up to those who are invested in the healthcare companies. So, I suppose the legislators want more accuracy? for whom? Are they attempting to guilt the patient out of an abortion or are they making certain that the embryo is less than 3 months?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Firstly if I may I'd like to say that I hope you're well again. What a frightening thing it must be to get that kind of news.

From what I've heard and read, the purpose of this is to create a greater liklihood that fewer abortions will occur because of the psychological aspect associated with have to endure such a test; that many women who seek to terminate a pregnacy are emotionally fragile and that having this required test would cause them to rethink their subjecting themselves to all the facets of an abortion. Would those women then travel to a nearby state? Perhaps, I might think.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Thanks Newman...yes, it's scary but mostly a freaking nightmare dealing with the system when you're ' that' sick.I don't like remembering. I've been well since 03..a miracle it is. A true miracle. I'm a fatalist and believe that any moment could be the last one..so, it's a good idea to live as fully as you can whether you're 5 or 500. Playing the guilt card is ' probably' one of their reasons for requiring the ultrasound but I still think it's something more that has to do with feeding the insurance companies or ??? because women have been having ultrasounds for many years now ( during the initial prenatal exam) and besides, the woman doesn't have to look at the screen unless someone is forcing her to--which would be terribly WRONG.
Newman, I must say...it's rather archaic and completely bizarre that we are even having this conversation today. Of all the things that our gov't should be concerned with...women's bodies should be the last on their list. And why is it that the Prolifers seem to only have reverence for the baby and not the mother or the father's life?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Once, not too long ago someone proposed a wonderful idea: a nation that aspires to true greatness ought to have affordable healthcare for all it's citizens. It was argued over, debated, criticized, denounced and was finally "shot down."

Ten years later the idea was reborn in a political platform. A replay of what had occured a decade earlier ensued, but this time it would be different.

After a thousand considerations and compromises, the legislation was passed but had been so tainted by the process that the reality of it became something far less the that original wonderful idea. So, we have what we have, and what we have serves as further proof that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Regarding your own past health issue Gillian, may I say that I think it's wonderful that you've had a successful outcome. Thanks for sharing your story.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Hey Newman, I was just wondering if you would know what socioeconomic group (s) chooses abortion more often. I'm curious because I turned on the news tonight ( a carcinogen to be mostly avoided) and heard them reporting the lowest birth rate in the USA since the depression. From what I gather in my personal conversations with others, it seems that the more educated and career driven women are the ones who are deciding that they don't want kids ( their boyfriends and husbands too). This of course would be of great concern to any government that is attempting to outgrow a serious recession/depression.
I don't know if you're a woman or a man but either way, my most caring advice to you is to get to know what the symptoms of ovarian cancer are and don't ever dismiss any intuitive concern. I am very lucky because I refused to allow two doctors to tell me that I was ok. I KNEW I was not well. It was my general integrative doctor who believed me, listened to me and helped me. My integrative doctor felt that I should see a Gyn immediately and so I did. The first Gyn and second Gyn I saw both told me that my ovary was fine and that it was confused ( confused????) and that I needed an antidepressant and a DNC. NO JOKE. My integrative doctor was livid and found someone else to work with me. SO, don't ever allow any doctor to dismiss your concern. I can't tell you the number of women that I met that had this same experience with their doctors. Early diagnosis is critical. It's horrible that anyone who is that sick and fighting for their life must also fight a battle with their doctors. I was very fortunate that my dearest friend in Wales came to the USA to stay with me for 6 months and be my advocate and help me take notes, find doctors, talk to doctors, keep track of any meds or supplements I was taking, helped with my will and other financial matters and even arranged to have my ashes taken to the north pole ( my favorite place..weird, eh?). Figures that since I did all that and spent most of my money, that I would live. Par for my life.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I've known two who had ovarian cancer. Neither had to endure the issues regarding diagnosis that you went through. They were fortunate in that regard and both had successful outcomes.

You're blessed to have your determination and doubly blessed to have such a wonderful friend.

North Pole? Got a plan B? The North Pole may not be there much longer, you know. :-)

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Wow Newman, thank goodness your friends survived. I think that in many cases of OC, the patients who were not exhibiting certain symptoms were dismissed more frequently. I read something about this on Dr. Oz's site as well and all I can remember is that reading it really upset me to know that so many women are misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all. My former sister in law died in 08 from uterine cancer that spread to her lungs and brain. She died within 30 days of her diagnosis at age 47 and she too had been complaining of problems for over a year and her doctors ignored her. By then the cancer had spread and there was nothing they could do. I felt so panicked and helpless. That was a traumatic heartbreak for me. I can't help but believe that the rise in hormone dependent or receptive cancers and our obesity epidemic isn't related to the increase in environmental hormones- esp estrogens. My spiritual beliefs also tell me that women suffer these diseases due to being so nurturing to others, putting their own needs last, having to do too many things and having their creativity stifled along the way. The ovary is the center of a woman's creativity. Lung cancer is synonymous with repressed anger as well. I don't have a plan B! The north pole is in deep trouble and as crazy as this sounds, I was almost hoping that I would die so that I get there asap. hahaha ironically, I laughed more after I was diagnosed than I had laughed in years. I remember planning my trip to the NP via Norway and I was arguing with my friend that surely, there was a less expensive and more direct route. We found a university that agreed to carry me with them on an expedition I was so excited as if I was going to be present for this trip. I kept torturing my friend to explain the specific details of the itinerary he just looked at me and said, ' You do realize that you won't care about these things at that time?" It never occurred to me that I would be dead. How strange! I laughed so hard I almost choked to death. I'm sure that when I pass, there will be at least one small glacier with a nice view. I hope I'm not around to see the end of the NP because that means that I won't be able to shack up with Father Christmas.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

What a poingnant yet funny story! Thanks for sharing it. Your take on why OC and other health issues are ignored is spot-on I think. Men ignore symtoms of medical problems they're subject to because of "the macho factor", figuring they can "tough it out." The symptoms of a heart attack come to mind.

You'll likely live a good long time. I think this because you have such a wonderfully positive attitude. It's long been said that as one ages, the longer one can maintain a sense of humor, the longer one will live. A positive outlook is most important.

I myself try to live in this way. It's why I'm involved with OWS. After reading, seeing and hearing about OWS for a couple of weeks and getting a sense of the vibe, I knew this was something of which I wanted to be a part. For all the philosophical disagreements and differences over issues, tactics and strategies, sometimes reduced to name calling and extremely derogatory remarks being thrown around, OWS is a place of possibilities and that makes it a place of hope. That's why I'm here. We can do this.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

I'll live a good long time? Oh my gosh, that IS terrifying! I just hope I die before my money and my patience for life runs out. I've got to quit my vitamins. Yes, we do become more humorous as we age. One reason is we can't cry because we suffer from dry eye syndrome. The other reason is that we develop a warped sense of humor from life's stormy experiences. We also lose our eye sight and hearing which serves to help us to live out our final years in peace while believing we are thin and gorgeous. I am watching the news which is bad for my health...beached whales, bank robberies, high gas prices, fires that killed children and pets...my gosh, now all I need is a advertisement for the SPCA to send me over the edge. This must mean I'm still young enough to suffer. I think I'll turn on Rin Tin Tin and listen to my Ultimate Manilow cd while I eat my chili and cornbread.

Newman, you're right that this site is a source of hope and YOU are big part of it. Thank you for helping to spread the epidemic of hope around the world.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Bless you and great thanks for your kind words.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I like the premise that "Americans will do what is right after they have exhausted all other options" i think I'm paraphrasing Church Hill. Our shitty health care compromise is not the road to perdition but is one of many wrong paths on the road to perfection.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Seems to me that we are always living in the extremes and like you say, we will only do the right thing after we've screwed up everything else. Nothing good comes easy. Evil takes the path of least resistance. We go from intense glutton to intense deprivation and this pattern continually cycles. We make ourselves fat and sick and then we starve ourselves and take medications to lose weight. We are constantly gambling, pushing the envelope to the extreme all the time. If you look at how folks lived before and after the depression, we see this same behavior and mindset today. Only I tend to think that we're more desensitized than former generations and hence, tolerate a lot more nonsense before we question authority. About every 20 years we see a dramatic change in our economy ( good or bad). I'm sure you've noticed too that even with medicines, it seems that big pharma and FDA are all about handing out drugs UNTIL the negative reporting reaches an unacceptable level. I just read yesterday that a cancer medication is causing people to die. How many had to die before they reached that conclusion? How many had to die taking Vioxx before they pulled it off the market? A LOT...it's totally unacceptable that anyone should die due to a medical system based on broken ethics. Obama care will only provide that same system to ALL of use for a price. I personally don't want to pay into that kind of system even though I do wish we had a more ethical single payer system.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I guess what you are pointing out is the down side to freedom. Having overconsumed and vicariously lived my life, I believe such freedom was good for me. I was never one to take someones word for it when growing up because of this I believe I've gained a better idea of what is right and what is wrong, having done most all the wrong things. Now I could just be believing this because it allows me to sleep at night, or it could be because I'm one of the most likable people i know, which could be me self aggrandizing again, lol. Anyway I digress, I believe that out of learning all the bad ways personally that i have a better understanding of why we have rules and why fair play should be aspired. Now, i can't speak for all those over achievers and glory hounds who aspired for riches and fames and found out the hard way that rules are easy to break and are broken regularly for economic gain. They may have a different idea about the law, who knows. but the reputation that you gain in life is better kept fallowing the laws. What I've seen with my thirty four year old eyes is a lot more people were raised my way. So by my perception, i believe we may be at one of those cycles you spoke of. As far as evil is concerned, I have never seen evil so I don't understand that word. I know self interests and greed and hubris which are all understandable. But evil, it just comes off as simplistic and lacks any meaning. It is up there with, wop, guke, and rag head; they just seem mean. Peace!

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

No freedom is free..as you probably know being a gluttonous party animal...hahahha I'll bet you ate all the Lays at the parties too didn't you? I would bet that most everyone is guilty of over consumption at some time in their life.
Freedom is earned and then nurtured with personal accountability for our mistakes and the choices that we make to preserve it. As Thomas Jefferson said, " The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". If we take freedom for granted ( which many of us do given that we've always known it) we will neglect to act responsibly to protect it and then before we know it, it's gone and we're all whining. Sort of like what's happened in the last decade.
It's always good to question authority. Even my father taught me that one when I was eenie weenie small. It got me into a lot of trouble at times but like you, I learned some great lessons in life..one being that freedom given without any personal responsibility is a recipe for disaster.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

that is very interesting, and, yes, I do see the circular nature of our gluttony. I just hope we are at a down turn in our over indulgent life styles. maybe a good economic down turn is needed so as to see the the error of our ways.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I chuckled when I read your quote. I'll have to try to remember that one. :-) Thanx, Jesse!

[-] 0 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

I've been meaning to frottagize you in the very areas you mention. It must be providential that you are here posting in such a manner to joggle my memory.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

does frottagizing have to do with cheese? I like fondue so maybe you do too?
I'm still gathering all my payment history on the college issue. Uggh...but the suit is in action.

[-] 0 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

Let's avoid all cheese like substances for this particular soiree!

Fondue is fine.

Hang in there on the suit, that stuff can drag on forever.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

This little game, along with the one of incarcerating women who have miscarriages is revolting.

[-] 1 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

I'm surprised that the Pro-Choice movement hasn't counter-attacked regarding all of these new laws. I could see them pushing for a constitutional amendment that used Roe v. Wade to prevent any States from passing laws that create an undue burden on women's choice of abortion.

It would be like if people had to take a test, pay a tax, or perform some other step before being able to vote, denying some the right to vote in the process... Oh wait, they did that just a century ago? In order to keep black people from voting? Could it be that the same thing is happening today to keep women for doing what they wish with their own bodies?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

They are to the extent that they are able to.

It most certainly is an attempt to keep women from reproductive rights.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 2 years ago

Maybe they should require the politicians to undergo anal probes every time a woman has to have it done.

These fundies are dangerous minds. If they are allowed to gain any more power we will all be facing the Inquisition and the possibility of being burned at the stake. I think the reason we are waging war in the middle east is a symptom of another crusade. The things these people believe and say are teetering on the brink of madness.

Reminds me of that old Pink Floyd song "Lunatic" I think. One of the verses goes "The lunatics are in the hall, the lunatics are in the hall, The paper holds their folded faces to the floor and every day the paper boy brings more."

Everyone needs to ask themselves one question. What if there is no God?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I've asked myself that very question in many different ways over the course of my life. As it happens, I do believe in God. My concept of what God is not one that matches up with any religion I'm aware of, however. We did a thread on the subject a couple of weeks ago. We got some very interesting posts in it. 'What role does God play in this election cycle' or something close to that, was it's title.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

this is nothing but one person imposing their judgement and world view on another person under the auspices of "law." freedom indeed.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

This just in: The Virginia House of Delegates passed a revised informed consent bill 65-32. In the revised bill the transvaginal ultrasound (internal) required 24 hours prior to an abortion was dropped and replaced with the same timeframe requirement but the ultrasound will be transabdominal (external).

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

NOT about the Watching of it.. the POINT is: Forcing Women into a getting 'PROBED".. or Violated!

.. Since the Beginning of legalized Abortion.. NONE of that had to take place first.

..Why Now?.. as a Matter of Deterring women from exercising their rights. .. These MEN think Nothing of abusing Women.. It's their way of showing off their Strength.. you know.. Like Peeing on everything!

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I'm not sure it's men who pushed for this.

Please read craigdangit's post further down in this thread.

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

I do know there was One Woman in congress that mentioned this for adoption in the Bill.. But she is NOT the impetus behind it.

Ty for your reply Thunder, Marlow

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I can see this issue being put before the Virginia or perhaps the US Supreme Court before too long.

Does religous dogma trump the rights of the individual citizen?

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Thunder... "..Does religous dogma trump the rights of the individual citizen?.."


Great way to say.. " Separation of Church and State".. Answer:.. No brainer!

... another point a Lot of People dont know.. That the 'Tea Party, .. Changed their Name from.. 'Christian Coalition'.

Remember them? That so called "Doesnt Exist" group? The out of Spacer's that tried to get everyone to believe that the Gay's had an 'Agenda'.. with Rules and Memberships?

Tea Party, Christian Coalition.. what ever their Name, .. is behind the Palins, the Santorums, and the rest of the "Whack Jobs"!

Have a great day !

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Someone said Evangelical Christians comprise 25% of the country's population; and they believe that an apocalyptic war that begins in the Middle East and kills nearly everyone will enable the second coming of Jesus and so they're anxious to get things going against Iran. The 'sign of the beast' has to occur. It's supposed that the sign will manifest itself in the form of a national ID chip implanted under the skin. You probably already know all of this stuff from the Book of Revelations. So, what I don't understand then is, if that's our fate and it's what they want more than anything AND it's possible that they'll get their war, why are they so uptight? You'd think they'd be happier than a one-legged man that just won an ass kickin' contest!

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

Well.. look at the Mormons.. They are all waiting to die and go to another Planet..!

If we go anywhere at all.. ( energy never dies.. so we go somewhere consciously).. We Sure shouldnt be hurrying it up!

The point in fact to me is,
Religion and or Belief System is Personal and about 'Values'

Politics is about the Well Being of ALL, and that is ruled by ..'Ethics'.

It's why we are Trying to keep them Separate.. Just makes good Sense.

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Amen to that! :-)

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

..#OWS Success.. Good that you agree Thunder....TY, now learn about hitting the 'Like, and Dislikes' at the end of each post..

I give you 'Likes' every time.. ( because you are smart enough to think like me! :o}

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

And you're good looking! hahaha!

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

We have it ALL!

Think others will notice? ;^)

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Did I say 'good looking'? I meant 'very good looking and sophisticated!

[-] 1 points by lisa (425) 2 years ago

They have to drink all that water and hold it WHILE PREGNANT to have a sonogram? It is bad enough if someone is not pregnant to go thru that, you can burst your bladder if you hold that water too long, to endure that while pregnant is really tooooo much aside from every other reason why she should not have to endure that, and what about the baby, is there a need to make him deaf from sound waves being directed at him while in the amniotic sac ? Sonar effects whales and other living creatures in the ocean, what do you think it does to a baby in a small enclosed space?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

This is what really slays me about the mindset that exists on the far right. They're anti-abortion and claim to be pro-life, yet where are their voices when children are abused and even killed? Why aren't they marching at the Virginia State Capital Building demanding that "BORN CHILDREN" receive greater protections through legislation that would lower the bar for what actions might be taken and when regarding the children and when they might be removed from the home and placed in foster care. Most states strive to keep these children in the home. In my opinion, they bend over backwards to do so.

[-] 1 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 2 years ago

They need to clean house in Virginia. What crap!

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

While sarcastic, Howell made a great point in introducing the idea of how demeaning and almost hypocritcal the requirement of a trans-vaginal sonography is.

Howell introduced an amendment to the bill that failed which would have required men to receive a digital rectal exam and cardiac stress test before they would be able to be prescribed erectile dysfunction medications such as Viagra and Cialis.

Howell's point was that erectile disfunction could perhaps be caused by a problem with the prostate or perhaps the potential user's heart may not be able to endure sexual activity.

[-] 1 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 2 years ago

Very good point, which shows, it's still a male dominated society. Woman are second class.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

This is what happens when you live in a red state newly controlled by repug gov and repug legislature. They are running rip shot over all Virginias, because the repugs are arrogant a$$ hats !!!

Why do they elect these a$$ Hats !!!

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Good question. I would hope there'd be a record number of adoptions in Virginia in the coming years. I would hope there'd be a large increase in family counciling and better methods for tracking and monitoring infants and children at risk for abuse and neglect. I would hope there'd be an increase in financial support available in Virginia. I'd be wonderfully surprised if those things happen.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

There's always hope. And with Gov McDonnell and the right wing republicans losing this battle to cover their a$$es from a total pummeling we have won. The bastards scrapped the whole bill. The people have spoken and the VA legislature in a wise move to save their rear ends, rebuked this a$$ nine bill.

This is democracy looks like. (Also, I saw the protest the other day in front of the Government building in Richmond. It was big and the message was clear!)

Now,

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I got to see video of those protests. Very heartening and wonderful to see.

The transabdominal ultrasound is medically unnecessary and I understand the new proposal will be up for a vote tomorrow 2/24

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Virginia lawmakers halt anti-abortion 'personhood' bill

State senate votes to send measure back to committee until 2013

They are shelving it until 2013 (when they hope to pass it w/o anyone noticing)

LINK: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46504390/#.T0bq89m39qM

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Thank you for the update, Puzzlin. There's hope for this bill yet getting completely flushed down the drain then. The strategy by Virginia Republicans may be one of waiting until after the inauguration, hoping that the heat will be off and they can slide it by before anyone really notices.

[-] 1 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

Because the Democrats, sadly, aren't any better.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

CraigDangedIT:

But more sadly is your wrong. It's not the dems doing this, it's all repugs. SO save that retort for another thread. Nice try, Dems are not Repugs. And Repugs are not Dems.

Equating the two shows your half asleep and not paying any attention to what you say. Your just repeating some narrative that has been hammered into your skull.

Your reputation will proceed you. Good Luck with that!

[-] 0 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

I read that more women in Virginia support fetal personhood than men. What gives?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Brother, I wish I knew the answer to that question. Perhaps they accept whatever comes their way as being God's plan for them. If that's their choice and so long as it's their choice, I'm fine with that. If they wish to legislate morality in Virginia to all Virginians, then I'd be opposed to that.

[-] 1 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

I mis-phrased: I read that more women than men in Virginia support the fetal personhood legislation that is proposed.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I understand that southern VA is more in line with being pro fetal personhood legislation than the areas nearer to DC.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

That is not fair, you should not have to look at something before you kill it.

[-] 4 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I know, right?! And they need to figure out a way for our soldiers in Afghanistan to kill enemy combatants without having to look at them, Well, camera feeds from a preditor drone kinda make it less real, I would think. Wait! What?

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Video can be a very effective deterrent.

Some of the images added to this speech make it all the more effective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjuUWr9vaXo

[-] 5 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I watched the Ron Paul video you linked. With respect, I say of my watching it, he's preaching to the choir.

Here are some books I recommend for those who haven't read them.

Ghost Wars: The Secret History of The CIA, Afghanistan and bin Laden from the Soviet Invasion To September 10, 2001 by Steve Coll

A Pretext For War by James Bamford

The Politics Of Truth by Joseph Wilson

American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

It is one of the best speeches before congress I have ever seen.

This one is great too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKBDHWDgBo

[-] 4 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Too true.

Imagine if politicians used the magician's trick of misdirection to keep the observers' attention focused away from things like perpetuation and growth of the military-industrial complex, via Constitutional issues, fetal personhood and other moral and ethical issues. Is the president a Muslim? Is his a made-up theology? Was he born in this country? Where's his birth certificate? Is that a real birth certificate? Is the president a dangerous man?

"Don't look over here (at what we're really doing). Look over here (at what we want to distract you with)". Poof! The flash powder ingnites in a white burst of bright light.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

That's right Newman just imagine if that actually happened! We wouldn't be America would we? ( wink, wink). I've come to the conclusion most of what we see is an illusion, a ruse and most always a fear-based dramatic diversion away from the truth. The National Enquirer sells a bunch of nonsense to those ' hungry for dramatic distractions' because it works. The gov't does this same thing because it works. I remember learning about subliminal advertising tactics when I was in high school art class and thinking about how creepy it was that our brains were absorbing information that we could not see and be aware of. Anytime I notice a trend in consumer spending, I think..' hmmm I wonder if we were influenced'. I've noticed that I will suddenly be on a war path to purchase an item that I've never considered and then hear that this item has become a very popular top seller. yesterday evening the news reported that people are spending lots of money on dishes.....dishes? Doesn't that sound so odd? Like, why would the masses suddenly want new dishes all at once? And even worse Newman guess what I purchased last week? A set of antique china! They got me!
I actually enjoyed saying the Pledge of Allegiance when i was a little girl and I was so proud and shouted those words with so much joy and passion. Sadly, I now believe even that morning ritual was just another attempt to brainwash me into believing in the great character of my country.

Allow me to digress with : Progress is the exact opposite of Congress :D

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

A little light reading regarding psycological warfare and psychological operations are linked below. BTW, it's hypothesized that Fox News conducts psy ops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_warfare

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/another-runaway-general-army-deploys-psy-ops-on-u-s-senators-20110223

As to your remark of "They got me!", well, "they got me too" because I started this thread, didn't I. Now I kind of feel like I got taken in, in a manner of speaking. None the less, I DO think that the politics of healthcare is a pertinent issue for us here at OWS. Some others here seem to agree.

Further, I bought new dishes this past weekend! I swear to you! Ok, the ones they replace were 18 years old and were beginning to look it, and buying dishes had been on the "to do" list for some time, but...

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

here's another interesting thing that happened in my area ( and others as I found out later) in 09. Keep in mind too that I live in a very large military area where strange things are seen in the sky quite a bit and even the local news will address the concern and reassure us that it's ' nothing'. The last week of June, military planes were flying over us for several hours claiming to spray insecticides. July 1,I woke up with the worst headache, completely exhausted and nothing I took got rid of the pain. The next morning my husband noticed that I had red bumps all over my neck. I had developed Shingles. I was so miserable and in so much pain. While I was at the pharmacy in the grocery store, they kept announcing that they had the shingles vaccine over and over again. My husband who is typically passive even noticed this and thought it was strange. on the way home, there were billboards covered in ads for Shingles vaccine. NO JOKE!!! A week or so later I discover that my dentist who lives not far from me, his partner and several of my clients in this area also had shingles. I didn't think this was just a coincidence and given that shingles is not contagious ( mostly so) I began some research and discovered 4 regional pockets in the US that were suddenly enduring a shingles epidemic. Several of the citizens had also mentioned that planes were flying over their houses spraying mosquito control. I dont' believe for one second this was just coincidence and especially since we hear nothing about these vaccines today.....now it's all about whooping cough vaccines.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Here's another link that regards Occupy and the psy-ops war conducted against it. We have read much of the posts by those who are termed "trolls", but are they? Not all, I should think!

http://occupypeace.blogspot.com/2012/02/misuse-of-social-media-at-occupy-psy.html

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

No doubt that the ' trolls' have big brothers. If I were them, I would be on here too. I always wonder who I'm talking to....maybe it's someone handsome, intelligent and rich! hehehehe

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

NO WAY!!!! They got you too! Well, it's comforting to know that I have an ally even if we are prisoners. A couple of years ago, I decided to break down and buy some cowboy boots. I rode English all my life and so I never wanted the western style until that day.. but I swear to you, almost immediately after I bought my boots, everyone started buying them. I didn't even want mine anymore after that. I've noticed this pattern in many things that I buy in the past ten years and I know there is something influencing me because I'm not a trendy gal and I don't even shop at malls or big box stores. I'll check out the links you sent...Cheers ( cell) Mate!

[-] 1 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Not kill, abort. Saying "kill" implies that it was ever living in the first place, and everyone knows an eight month and 29 day old fetus is not "living" as long as it is inside the mother. Women should be able to perform post-gestational abortions on premature babies until they reach nine months old or until they decide to keep them.

[-] -1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Kill - verb - to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay. I would say that abortion certainly deprives of life in some manner. You can abort up to 24 weeks. Here is a fetus at 24 weeks: http://tinyurl.com/7kw7nfk

My child is almost a year old and still depends on me for life. Using your logic I should be able to end it's existence if I decide not to keep him.

[-] 2 points by buik6 (18) 2 years ago

why did you have a child if you want to kill it? you should have had an abortion in that case. you should have thought that one out better. if there was even a chance you would say to yourself "i am not gonna be feelin this in a year" you should have aborted it.

me, i know for a fact i would have been one of those horrible fathers who left before my kid was even born. when fathers say "when my child was born i realized what was important in life" my immediate thought is "what the fuck is the matter with you?"

yeh abortion may be murder but murdering a fetus rather than causing an actual person a lifetime of pain is the right move in my book.

i think people enter into parenthood a little too easily. you, for example, are you worth many millions? because if not you are the proud parent of a one-year-old slave, a slave just like you. slaves that reproduce are just assholes looking for the least common denominator of meaning in their lives. problem is, you're too much of a bitch to admit any of this.

so go feed your baby and shut the hell up. i actually think a fetus is a person, but i have absolutely no regrets about killing that person before he realizes his father is an asshole. true for you and me alike : )

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

I don't want to pay child support, is the main reason I'm in favor of abortion. It just costs so darn much to take care of a child, unless you are worth a fortune like you said. I agree that it is better to kill something than have it encounter a rough life, which is why I carry around a set of handcuffs in case I encounter any disabled people riding the subway that might get mocked later on in life, so I can take them away and save them from their misery. Less intelligent people also are more likely to receive torment, so I say we should abort them every chance we get.

[-] 1 points by buik6 (18) 2 years ago

if you beat a disabled person with a hammer wouldnt you just make him more disabled? someone is bound to stop you before you finish the job.

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Well, if the state would use their influence and power to do my humanitarian job so I wouldn't have to, it would save me a lot of time.

[-] 1 points by buik6 (18) 2 years ago

save more time if you got yourself a more efficient weapon. plus hammer-beating is intrinsically inhumane.

but yeh the point, to be serious, is that killing a person with a history on this earth is different than killing one in the womb, you hurt a lot more people if you wait for it to grow up. best to nip it in the bud.

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Well, I'm afraid we disagree there, I think all children should be incubated individually in isolated cells until they reach 5, to make double sure the mother wants them. If they get to be 4 and start drawing finger paintings of weapons on the cell walls with their feces, time to save society some trouble. No one would know them, so they still wouldn't have any rights. Kind of like the American Indian natives, no white people knew them personally, so who cares what their rights are.

[-] 1 points by buik6 (18) 2 years ago

i think you crossed the line from satire to absurdity about three posts ago, dude. you are ineffective in communicating your position. or perhaps in formulating your position. who knows?

[-] 1 points by buik6 (18) 2 years ago

i certainly dont. i have no idea what your position is. i think if you are even thinking those horrible things about disabled people and hammers, it might be best to go get your head evaluated. or when they catch you they can do it for you.

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term. Abortion is just killing.

Unfortunately there are about 3,790 abortions a day in the US.

There are plenty of families that would take in your unwanted child.

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Yes but if I carry the child to term, my unwed girlfriend might end up with stretch marks. Why not just kill it? You know what's inhumane? Telling a woman she has to endure a life of stretch mark related torment, when the simple solution is to kill someone else so she doesn't have to. Besides, what if our vacation gets interrupted by her having this child? You conservatives think you're so smart, when in reality you have enough money to pay people to go on vacation for you, or have the child for you, so you don't get any stretch marks or interruptions.