Forum Post: Turns Out, Bad Choices Lead to Poverty. Who Knew?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 15, 2011, 9:14 p.m. EST by Grownup
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Choices drive poverty. Occupy better choices by avoiding these things and your chances of being poor almost vanish: 1) Illegitimacy; 2) Early parenthood; 3) Committing crime; 4) Dropping out; 5) Taking drugs; 6) Not speaking standard English.
It's a simple fact despite the responsibility-free ethic of OWS. But if you find poverty, you most likely also either find someone that shouldn't be in our country or you find someone that wouldn't stick to the list.
Unless your a bank then bad choises lead to 7 trillion dollars in low interest fed loans
Applause!!!
Or you have 10 children from 9 different fathers so that you can collect fed gov, state, and local assistance and have 9 different fathers on the hook for 'child support' (shoe, clothes, jewelry, movies, girl night outs $$)
Bingo
Outstanding point!
And don't forget about those bonuses, and the fact that they have not been held accountable for their crimes, and the fact that they caused so much pain and suffering for others, that our economy still suffers for. Yet the financial crises was just a minor business blip for them.
Why not, they have the fed and taxpayer to constantly bail them out, that way they can keep writing themselves those fat paychecks.
Yea, like being born on the wrong side of the tracks.
Or your job was outsourced to Mexico / China / India / Vietnam / etc.
Or you've come back from half a dozen tours serving your country's oil companies in Iraq and can't find work because real unemployment is 23%.
Or all that health insurance you've been paying for decades was wasted when the insurer decided that they weren't going to pay and you became one of the 60% of people with insurance who've gone bankrupt from medical bills.
Time for Grownup to grow a fucking brain.
I grew up working poor in the Bronx and am currently at MIT thanks to a crazily determined mother and a strong, supportive working class community. Simply speaking from my experience and from what I've seen, poor choices may be a part of why people are poor, but they're hardly enough of the picture to just be able to point the finger at an entire population and brand them as lazy, stupid, and useless.
I'll be the first to admit that what I did was hardly in a vacuum. Not everybody has a mother who is a licensed teacher who was willing to quit her job to live as a poor housewife so that she could homeschool her children to keep them out of a failing school system. Not everybody has a father who could find and hold onto a union job with good benefits up until his son's sophomore year of high school, weather an eleven-month strike and a plant closure, and manage to get another union job within a few months of being laid off. Not everybody has a landlord willing to hold off a rent increase for a year longer than he had to to cut us a break. Not everyone knows an incredibly kind nun who just dropped off $500 at our doorstep one month when we couldn't fully make rent on time.
It is theoretically possible to bootstrap oneself out of poverty, but damn near nobody who truly got anywhere satisfactory in life came from absolutely nothing. There is always the one that does, and that person is so many different kinds of amazing it's not funny, but usually there are support systems there that you didn't see that your average bootstrapper was able to take advantage of. There are also whole communities in which the resources don't exist for those kinds of support systems to develop organically and therein lies the trap. When you have someone who comes from a broken home, spends his days in a school that doesn't teach him and where large chunks of the student body punish success, in a community where few people care and the ones that do truly have no support to offer, you've essentially spent his whole life teaching him that success is out of his reach and only a fool would try.
The whole point of having a more comprehensive and consistent welfare system than what we have now is to give the generationally poor an environment that teaches them otherwise. Give them real economic support for things like going to college and/or vocational training so that they can ditch their minimum-wage job for something they can actually live on. Send their kids to strong, high-performing schools where success is expected and rewarded. Truly offer them opportunity and you'd be amazed at how fast they would take it.
A couple of my jobs have been outsourced here. They bring Indians and Chinese students in for computer programming under work visas. They work for a year, two, etc. The companies sponsor them and get tax breaks. And they don't pay very well as far as the jobs go. They think they are making good money because of where they come from. It happens with jobs sent overseas and right here under our noses.
I've personally 'outsourced' a few computer programming jobs (FYI, Now more commonly referred to as "software developer") to Venezuela over the last couple of years because I couldn't find any qualified Americans. Jobs don't alway go offshore because of cost savings. We have full employment right now in the technology sector and it isn't easy to hire Americans because so few Americans are training for these jobs. Every American knows how to use Facebook but almost all Americans would be helpless to BUILD something like Facebook.
The problem is the market is flooded with what is here; meaning nothing made is better than the status quo. You really can't ceate a better facebook, myspace was knocked down to second. I cannot ever dream to compete with either one. Not to mention the facebook creation is also a repository for volunteering personally identifiable information, which companies line up to pay for. I cannot develop any software that hasn't been. Only option is to make a better "mouse trap" I have worked in software/web development, hardware, engineering, assembly, mainframe you name it. Programming language has gotten easier if anything. Link a bunch of data bases and libraries, build a front end compile, done! I tinker around the house, make parallel interfaces to control the power windows/radio in my car, fun projects like that. I had it so people who scanned their drivers license could ring my doorbell so I can see who was at door. Anyone not in system could not ring bell. I invent things all the time, write software, program micro controllers to do all sorts of stuff. But I am old school, cannot afford to keep up (speed wise) with the young crowd anymore and I myself have become obsolete...That is why I am out of work. I can get low end tech job replacing hard drives and lcd screens, nut it is not fun anymore.. I made computer device to modulate gas control and saved several hundred / month on heat cost. It is already patented, I tried. All the stuff is taken, I need a new career....
The sad reality is that you're not as obsolete as you think you are, because the young crop of hot-shot engineers who were supposed to show up to push us out have simply not materialized. There are very few American software developers and that's why we have full employment in software. There is a very small group of competent developer who are writing code that will dictate the boundaries of all of our lives online for decades. Centuries. Because so few Americans are interested in 'hard' jobs like that, those few need will have a lot of power in the future, and most of them probably won't be Americans. Those nerds could very well be the most-powerful 1% that protesters in the future complain about.
Check this out, you might enjoy it:
http://tryruby.org http://railsforzombies.org
Good link, I don't mean obsolete - I am more of a debugger , and director. Believe it , I don't even have a degree. I have managed several projects, and was recognized for my skills early on. I worked at a company, JW Fishers that manufactures underwater search equipment. Had some design and programming input, and drew most schematics and circuit boards. I can solve problems, even if I don't know the ins & outs of language. I am a hacker (though I do not practice due to traceability) Mainly for the cat & mouse game of puzzle solving;) I can reverse engineer anything. The problem is they want the piece of paper. My experience has its merits and weight. The do not want thinkers, they want yes people....No creativity....I was coding websites shortly after yahoo was created, apps, etc. I am sick of it it is not a challenge anymore. I am not "fast"enough. I stick to the projects, and problem solving, app bugs, cross compatibility issues, cross platform issues, speed compatibility etc. I even wrote many of the macro corrections that automate trading via Russel 2000 fund at State Street bank because after hardware migration, the pcs/servers were too fast for the mainframe. I never sit in one place. Yep and I have been regarded as NERD ;)
There are many cases of people who are fully employed citizens of the USA who have been forced to teach people from other countries how to do their job only to end up unemployed because their job was outsourced once the person from another country learned how to do his job.
Go figure.
No, chinese rarely get work visas. And it's not Indian students, the Indians have already graduated from college. And they come here for more than a year or two. The trick is to have kids here, then get the green card through children's citizenship or through work.
I know of many Chinese that are here with visas, maybe it depends on location. I know of some that have had children as well with citizens. Maybe they are here on another program as well. Some are working, and are sponsored. They are provided housing, and only get a stipend for what they do. They must work and payoff the "sponsorship" Not really sure whats going on exactly, but they are here.
Most likely, they came in on an F1 visa, and then have been allowed to work a bit under it. But it's rare for them to get h1b visas, and even rarer that the get an L1. Some indians also work on an f1 visa after finishing school, but most of them come on the H1B.
There are enough pell grants/state aid for ANYONE to go to school for free, starting at a community college. GEt good grades, transfer, and the gov will fund the rest.
Its what I did.
A welfare system though should be something equally accessible and ours is not; it's heavily biased towards those not labeled as "caucasion." My neighbor, for example, received her Masters entirely for free. She is second generation Portuguese and she claimed on her application to be hispanic; had she not done this she would not have qualified for aid. What is so disturbing to the poor and not yet comfortable white working class is that these same avenues are NOT available to us. And yet we contribute to the system through the burden of our taxes.
This is the very reason that so many of OWS are up in arms about educational costs and student loans; it is not a consistent or fair system. And as long as it remains so there will be little compassion for minorities however deprived of circumstance.
The teen that gets pregnant at 15 gets the red carpet of care... she is instructed and literally walked through the process; we provide all manner of support - social security cards, photo IDs, a drivers license... we provide transportation to social services, to the motor vehicle office, to teen parenting programs; we even drive them to their court dates. We provide housing, a food allowance, medical care and free education.
What we create in the process is generational poverty because those who should adopt corrective behavior fail to do so; they fail because it is not an imperative. And behaviorally challenged.becomes self perpetuating.
Now they are demanding "income," i.e., spending money.
The welfare system is a failure; white empathy has destroyed and marginalized what was once a thoroughly self-sufficient people.
Great retort to the mean spirited, malarkey, of the Form Post
The little troll hasn't quite finished growing up...
"...and you became one of the 60% of people with insurance who've gone bankrupt from medical bills."
What? You just make this shit up and not one of your followers below even questions it. Typical.
I didn't make it up, CNN did.
Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies
That's NOT what you wrote. Re-read your own post.
It's really quite funny. No matter the elephant's size in the poverty room, leftists simply ignore it. Choices are the biggest drivers of poverty. No matter how much you fuss, it remains true.
Truly, unemployment and poverty aren't random. They aren't. They have drivers and I've listed a few of them. No matter how obvious, the left simply won't acknowledge them.
The wealth of a few is made up of the poverty of many.
hmm, I wonder, did YOU choose extremely wealthy parents to be legitimately born to?
Your entire premise fell apart with that one word...illegitimate.
HA HA HA I asked God to be born to uber rich parents, God said
Dude, it doesnt work that way.....
Excellent comment, totally Pwned. Rec this comment up, its awesome.
No, it really doesn't. And absolving people of responsibility for their lives as you're willing to do is both bad for the country and undermines the people you cheaply claim to care about.
Liberals tell poor people that success is random. But they don't tell their own kids the same thing. Hmmm, wonder why. Liberals make their kids do homework, worry about their daughters getting knocked up, would be alarmed at a kid getting a record. Hmmm, why would that be? LOL.
As I said when you insert the word illegitimacy into a list, making it the number 1 issue as you have done, the rest of your argument loses effectiveness as you have placed the burden of responsibility upon one who is unable to be anything but what it is.
I am not arguing the statement your post is attempting to make, I am arguing your language and communication skills. That is why I asked if you chose to be born legitimately to wealthy parents, thus demonstrating the conflict within your statement.
Not really. The mom is poor too. And the kid has something to learn about: that family structure breeds poverty. Too bad liberals will tell that kid it isn't true. Liberals won't even tell the mom not to get pregnant.
Communication is still the problem, not a mom's, not a kids. Listen to your own argument, infants do not choose to be born to legitimacy or illegitimacy. That point there made your argument invalid. Correct that portion then it's something that may be worth discussion.
And strangely enough, conservatives deny them birth control. Go figure.
Anyone can get birth control dipshit. Libtards don't want to use it. What for when mama government will pay for it.
Owned, PandoraK Pwned you.
Upward mobility is a ruse, and you fell for it. All those claims and no stats with citations to back it up.
Pwned.
BS! It's an absolute fact that if you become unemployed after the age of 55 you've had it. Do people choose to be 55?
I was literally born and grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. A railroad ran practically through my backyard (about 50 feet from the house). A freight train came by once or twice a day, and the whole house shook. We (kids) would wave at the engineer and he would blow the whistle. On the other side of the tracks was an empty lot, and beyond that were the nice developments.
Whenever I hear that expression I get a wave of nostalgia.
@ Groan : You claim to be "Grown Up" but it begs the question "A Grown Up WHAT ?!"
Retarded ; Rancid ; Rabid-Reactionary & Right-Wing, Randian Reptile ... would be my best guess !
Your humourless, inhumane and hubris hates human beings. You associate wealth and privilege with moral and ethical rectitude & you're given to the Unconscionable Precepts of "The Cult of Wealth" !!
Your cold dead heart will remember that it once had a beat, was warm and once still had human feeling left in it, just before you breath your last !!!
momento mori ...
ps : Consider that you may be a Psychopath. Watch ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/ or http://watchdocumentary.com/watch/i-psychopath-video_b28f60185.html to recognise your misanthropic self and hopefully seek help and take action .. tch .
It's quite evident that you are the sociopath; isn't it?
Me ? Moi ?! "bet-u-a-$" that you haven't quite cottoned on the the fact that I'm addressing the forum-poster "Grownup" in my post above !! Unless of course you and "The Groan" are one and the same ... in which case I'd ping your post straight back at you ! In any case case "betua" ; HO, Ho, Ho & Merry Xmas & A Happy New Year ;-)
Yea... And so I see, and a Merry Christmas to thee...
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get born, keep warm, buy gifts, don't steal. twenty years of schooling and they put you on the day shift.
plenty of examples of overcoming. next !
or becoming pregnant @ 15. number one cause of being in poverty - single parent household.
And then walking over and sitting down in front of the train. Liberals, of course, blame the train and those that chose not to sit in front it.
Hi Growup! Bad things happen to good people everyday. I hope someone gives you the gift of a clue for Christmas. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Edit: By "entitlements" you aren't referring to those separate, statutory deductions from paychecks like Medicare and Social Security are you?
What statute? In case you hadn't noticed, democraps are defunding entitlements right now.
Anyone who voted for the payroll tax holiday extension voted to defund social security and medicare.
While that defunding doesn't help me in particular, I think it WILL help many, many others. Some are family members and still others are members of my community. God bless and happy holidays!
You do realize that it catches up to us, right?
I mean, why should we have social security and medicare deducted from our paycheck through FICA if the leaders can defund it at any time? Also, Obama took $500 Billion from medicare and gave it to Obamacare. How is that right? Don't people pay FICA so it's there for them when they retire, not for a new program? Why is social security thirty years down the road expanded into Social Security Disability Insurance without people having to pay into it to collect?
Why should anyone believe that the government is going to keep it's word if a politician can change the rules in midstream and direct the money elsewhere?
Politicians keep robbing peter to pay paul so they can get more votes. Why trust them with anymore of our earnings?
Hi mee44 - I do realize that it'll catch up to us and I agree with your point concerning the what, when, where, and why our social security and medicare monies are going. We need to stop these kinds of things.
They do. But citing the minor reasons for becoming poor is a poor reason to brush off the major reasons for becoming poor. The fact that you might become poor for some reasons is a bad idea to ignore the fact that you WILL become poor for other reasons.
you should talk with a bankruptcy lawyer to hear the many stories of how people got to their present situation. typically they were victims of an unintended, unforseeable, circumstance beyond their control such as a medical condition that an insurer wouldn't pay for, or a cheating spouse that left them high and dry, or a layoff. less typically, they overspent. then again, someone like you, i would not expect to actually do research learn anything, nor to try to learn anything. closed mind without doing the research.
The number one reason for being poor in this country is being born that way.
Poverty determines most choices, parameters of day to day attitudes and behavior.
Those born to poverty today are less likely to get out of poverty than at any other time in US history. 98% of those born in any economic quintile stay in that quintile their entire lives.
Poverty is not a character issue, It is a systemic one.
the system that contains this problem: socialism
I would say it's more of a responsibility issue than anything else.
Would you say that 2 income households that create latchkey kids are part of your group of bad choices?
I think that you really don't know who Occupiers are, in the demographic sense.
The number one reason for poverty is being born into poverty.
Choices don't drive poverty, poverty drives choices.
The myth of the bootstrap is just that: a myth. 98% of all those who are born to poverty stay in poverty their entire lives, (just as 98% of the wealthy are born to wealth, and will stay in their quintile the rest of their lives.) The poor have worse educational opportunities, worse job prospects, etc. They are born more often with low birth weight. And the lowest 10% have a higher infant mortality rate than Calcutta. Those are not choices they made, but the choices - or rather, lack of them - poverty made for them.
Blaming the poor for being poor demonstrates the typical, evidence free, hatred of their fellow citizens the right wing never fails to demonstrate. They love to shout "take responsibility" but refuse to take it themselves by finding out why other people live the way they do.
Poverty is NOT a consequence, in the overwhelming majority of cases, of a lack of character, it is a consequence of an economic/political system. The lack of character resides in those who, without basis, judge the poor for being poor.
Great post.
And liberals apologize for ongoing bad choices and treat people as though they're incapable of better behavior.
No, Liberals try to help instead of simply assign blame. Liberals try to find the actual causes of problems rather than simply judge based on no evidence. Liberals try to learn instead of close their minds in self-aggrandizing superiority while bellowing myths.
So why do we have more poor than ever? The trillions spent (our tax dollars) by Liberals has done nothing to help them. It's just kept them as slave voters for the Dems.
Why do we have more poor than ever? Have you heard of that little thing called THE RECESSION?
The trillions were to stabilize the economy, pay for unemployment, to fight two wars left over from the previous administration, and to pay the bills fro previous legislation. The part of the stimulus package that went directly to to the states saved about 4 million jobs that otherwise would have been lost.
People have been thrown out of work by the millions since this Lesser Depression started due to NO FAULT OR THEIR OWN. 50% of Americans currently live near or below the poverty line according to the new census report. Are 175,000,000 people, men, women and children alike, all guilty of making bad choices?
Your blaming everyone for the choices BANKS made is blaming the mugging victim for getting robbed instead of the mugger.
"The part of the stimulus package that went directly to to the states saved about 4 million jobs that otherwise would have been lost." Obama said 3 million now you bump it up a notch. In either case, prove it. All you are doing is towing the Dem party line.
I'm talking about the money spent since Johnson's War On Poverty, not just now. And even the trillions spent by Obama did nothing for the poor.
Johnson's war on poverty was the beginning of an amazing success, projected to reduce poverty by as much as 50%. But he only served for 5 years, and the legislation hardly had time to take effect before Nixon scaled it back. Sadly, it was mostly dismantled during the Reagan administration and poverty crept back up again. (Remember "Ketchup is a vegetable" for school lunches and surplus Army cheese replacing food stamps?)
Even with those caveats, the food stamp program is keeping millions from starving, though it is badly underfunded. Section 8 housing is also grossly underfunded, but still helps millions who would otherwise be living on the streets.So progress has been made. If it weren't for those programs, poverty would be even worse than it is today. What we see is the poverty, what we don't see is the poverty AVERTED because of existing programs. But half measures effectively make the programs like the Dutch Boy with his finger in the dike: it stem the worst of the tide but a real commitment to eradicating poverty would take a hell of a lot more, and deployed a hell of a lot more smartly than has been done up to now. And Welfare needs to be reinstated.
The real creator of growing poverty, however, in the years Since Reagan has been the 1%, and the current levels spiked specifically because of Wall Street and the banks. Government can only do so much to counter that devastation. But dramatically increased government investment in job creation would go a long way.
Obama did NOT spend "trillions" on poverty. He bailed out banks, car manufactures and extended unemployment benefits. He also sent stimulus money to states, who did whatever they wanted with it.
Bigger government is always the solution in your socialist mind. It has never worked and can never work because it is a flawed concept.
You're knowledge and understanding of history is lacking. Bigger government got this country out of the Great Depression, helped create the middle class, and expanded the economy every time new programs were initiated.
No one, including progressives, is in love with government per se. But all evidence has shown that bigger government has led to greater prosperity. The converse has also been shown to be true: shrinking government has always led to a contraction of economic growth.
It seems to me that your ideology trumps your ability to understand evidence, let alone seek it out. Instead, you prefer handy labels and judgements that simply don't apply, labels like "Socialist". Easy labels and easy judgements of people are, well, easy; they are the products of a lazy mind.
You are exactly wrong on each point. How much did you pay for your Keynesian Economics and Re-writing History degrees? You got taken!
Keynesian economics is classical economics, and is market centered. You clearly don't understand a word of it, nor do you consider that its application got the country out of the Great Depression. You look at that history without the slightest glimmer of understanding.
Furthermore, for the last 80 years or so, all investors ,the stock market, indeed everybody but the top 1% did far better financially under Democratic administrations (you know, those tax and spend guys) than under Republican ones (the only help the rich and fuck everyone else guys).
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/readme/2008/09/politicians_lie_numbers_dont.html
http://currencythoughts.com/2008/08/19/how-the-us-economy-performed-under-democrat-and-republican-presidents/
http://arts.bev.net/roperldavid/politics/economy.htm
http://tlrii.typepad.com/theliscioreport/2008/07/presidential-ec.html
Yeah, smaller government works better for the economy, And I've got a bridge to sell you.
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what if someone wants to change things, change their life shouldn't they be able to do so? because someone made some un-wise decisions they should pay forever? you should pay forever for choices you made in your teens and twenties and even thirties? well that just doesn't feel like a just and fair society but one that wants to keep people in their place and punish them for not being a cog in the machine that is consumerism and materialism. fuck that we are gonna blow the whole thing up and start a new society where anyone at anytime can change their life to try to get is right not for just a 2nd time but a 3rd and a 4th time and a 5th time however many it takes. where as long as you want to try to get it right you will have a chance to not be left behind quite simply we do not have that now.
What a fool. Teens should get a second chance, not 20 or 30 year olds
why not?
Eventually people need to take responsibility. Anyone can screw up once, in their youth. In their thirties, they should have the maturity to make good decisions.
what if you are still paying for mistakes you made when you were younger like being a slacker and you can't get a leg up now that you are serious i am not even talking about a criminal conviction and they say have an associates degree like myself but trying to survive ate up the majority of your time and effort after say age 21 and you are stuck waiting tables or working in retail i don't want to work meaningless low pay jobs my whole life when i have never done anything bad
Then you do what my oldest son does. He works full time during the day and takes night classes at the community college. He has a plan and he's sticking to it. He lives on his own and takes care of himself. I'm proud that he has the personal responsibility to do all these things on his own. You're only stuck if you let yourself be.
not true at all you are out of touch
What's not true?
You're only stuck if you let yourself be is bull. trust me i have been stuck for 12 years, i am at the same spot i was at when i was 21 actually prob worse i am a highly intelligent person with an associates degree stuck waiting tables/bartending for 12 years insane.....
No it's the truth. Maybe you need to take another look at the field your degree is in and change to another more marketable one? I find it hard to believe in 12 years you haven't been able to better yourself. You could learn a lot of skills in 12 years.I don't think you're trying. I grew up on welfare and that made me decide I was never going to live like that again. I've worked hard over the years,furthered my education in my field of work,and have never had my wages do anything but increase. My current contract has been canceled and when my previous employer found out through the grapevine he called me and I will go back to work for him at a higher wage than what I make now.
i know how to do a lot of things actually i know something about a tremendous amount of things and i am often the smartest man in the room how ever this does not equal opportunity i dont see a whole lot of that.
You have to make your own opportunity dude,not wait for it to fall in your lap.
there is none dont you get it there was none b4 and there certainly is not now. wake up snap out of the fog
You're the one who needs to wake up. Obviously you chose a field in which there is very little work or you're just not that good at what you do. While you whine and have a pity party my 22 yr old son is on his way to owning his own business through his hard work and taking classes which pertain to business. He didn't sit around waiting for things to drop in his lap. He's busted his ass and made his own opportunity. If you can't understand I guess you'll never be more than a waiter/bartender.
i cant wait till his business fails
When the revolution comes I think you will find yourself on the wrong side.My neighborhood is ready for your "revolution". We have a basic defense plan in place (man it's great to have so many military people for neighbors) and believe me,you OWS people will never make it past the barricades. People like you don't worry us in the least. Go back to serving drinks and waiting tables sad person.
basic defense my cock in your wife ha ha ha!
Money will allow me to take care of my family,that makes me happy.
what about everyone else?????? fuck them right..... ha ha hah ha worthless paper is gonna do you no favors when the revolution comes and it is coming..... world wide revolution... where will you hide with your worthless paper then??????
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How nice of you to wish ill on others. You can't make it so you hope someone else can't too. Sad and pathetic.
what is sad and pathetic is you and your attitude and point of view....what is sad and pathetic is you think the country and the world are just fine go fuck yourself you know nothing...you are not a person you are a sheep have fun at the slaughter....
Really? You think it's sad and pathetic that some people are willing to work hard to achieve their goals? Here's one that will really stick in your craw.My current contract has been canceled as of Dec 31. My previous employer called me and wants me to come back to work for him and he's giving me a $1.63 an hour increase which brings me to $28 per hour. I am living proof that hard work pays off. Go live your sad little whiny life and be nothing. Myself I'll keep working hard and enjoying the benefits of it.
now i think you are sad and pathetic. yeah cause money will make you happy fucking fool.
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Well with my northwales accent I have been driven to poverty, thought it wasnt my choice until I met Henry Higgins, the rain in Spain falls mostly on the plain, it is so hard... but i do love chocolates.. maybe i can learn to speak properly some day
No. Choices don't drive poverty. Environment drives poverty. Capitalism drives poverty.
Blame everyone else for your stupid mistakes. Typical.
Your a dipshit. Lazy ass losers drive poverty. Grownup makes a hell of a lot more sense than you do.
Grownup + Farleymowat + aries = THE THREE STOOGES :)
Thanks, Tiouaise. I'm exhausted from arguing with these people. Can't believe they're Americans and that they want to live in this country the way it is now.
Bums like you made this county the way it is now. We want to fix it.
we don't want it the way it is now, we want a free market, capitalist economy. not the BS socialism/capitalism thing we have now
Thanks for the compliment. The three stooges were a very successful act. No doubt proud 1%ers.
When I was 6 years old, I LOVED the Three Stooges... Eventually I outgrew them, but apparently they are still your mentors. LOL
I like Laurel and Hardy too. Especially the one when they dropped the piano out the window on top of your head.
Now that again is EXACTLY your level!!! LMAO
It is pretty damn funny. I like it when road runner drops a big ass rock off a cliff and it lands on your head too. LMAO
I bet you love Bugs Bunny too... Any TROLL cartoons you could recommend?
No. You could watch reruns of Peewee's playhouse. I'm sure Paul Reubens is just your type.
You'd make a great cartoon character. Come to think of it, T R O L L S like you would make FANTASTIC political cartoon characters.
And I've got LOADS of material to use... Thank you, you've been most helpful!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-trolls-think-trollosophy-exposed/
No problem. Happy to have entertained you.
Im sure you pickup all the chicks at parties:) Especially the ones with low self esteem.
I've been happily married for many years. Thanks for your concern though countryboy.
Well the loss has been great...
Do you make fruitcake for the holidays? If you do I bet nobody eats it.
Naw we drink alot of spike punch and eat cookies watching its a wonderful life.
Naw we drink alot of spike punch and eat cookies watching its a wonderful life.
I like how the grinch stole Christmas.
Well it keeps us sane down in the hood. All my neighbors come over.
I thought you left the cities.
just a thought I had. .. leave the city and get some land... get away from the rat race.
I like that thought. I hate the rat race, and I'm barely part of it.
Naw we drink alot of spike punch and eat cookies watching its a wonderful life.
.@ Grownup -
"INSIDE JOB", The Latest Working Link :
http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/
Wow what an ignorant post.
Did you know a large percentage of homeless people are actually war veterans?
Maybe you should know facts before you talk like GOP scum.
http://front.moveon.org/7-facts-about-our-veterans-that-will-shock-the-hell-out-of-you/#.Tury5j1JTNs.facebook
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That doesn't mean the majority in poverty made bad choices you fucking shallow heartless asshole.
Do not trust the content of what you read on this forum it is censored to defend the usual suspects.
Wallstreet knew.
OccupyWallStreet!!!!!
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
If that's the final answer to who gets to survive or not ,
Kill me now !
I don't want to live in a world where people would let someone go without basic necessities because I have an answer and could have helped 'em but decided if I survive and they don't , "I win" !
It's Christmas , traveling , and I just gave someone $20.00 at a highway gas stop !
No loss to me !
That person gained in greed or help , and either way it didn't hurt me !
It's not all Black and White !
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I knew......:)
It seems that when Wallstreet, makes bad "choices", it has the ability to render poverty upon millions of people, all over the world.
I've know this since the 70s.
Anyone have me beat?
These notions do not take into account why the poverty rate, the unemployment rate, the average wage rate, the rate of homelessness or housing foreclosures vary and go up and down, although right now many economists are concluding that the current crisis is not cyclical but systemic and that these rates are very likely to continue going up. This view also says absolutely about how and why the gap between the wealth of the super rich and virtually everyone else continues to widen,
Does this mean that more and more people are simply making more and more bad choices? If that is true, what exactly is driving that? If the crisis is cyclical, why, from the perspective you raise, do quantitatively more people make bad choices in some periods and fewer people make bad choices in other periods?
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Hey asshole, I was an "illegitimate" child. Explain to me how I am supposed to go back in time and keep my father from running away when my mother got pregnant. If breathing becomes illegal we all become criminals. It is currently illegal to stand on the earth, without paying some fascist organization for the privilege of not being a bird. As far as the language issue the original people of this land spoke Ojibewa, and Lakotah. Learn those languages before you talk shit about other people learning English. Besides what is standard English? There are as many versions of English as there are former colonies. Jamaican English? Australian? Kenyan? Hawaiian? Samoan? You are stupid. I am not being a troll I have empirical evidence. your own post proves it. If you believe English should be the only language used take your sorry ass to England.
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It's a good sign when our enemies are this blatantly ignorant.
http://blip.tv/lessig/republic-lost-my-favorite-version-5697728
People who "wouldn't stick to the list" are sources of great inspiration for me.
is this really gingrich in disguise?
the problem is.. you find all those traits in the affluent also. therefore, those traits cannot be attributed to poverty.
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Ahh shut up bigot!
The government and big corporations is number 1 right now in creating poverty for the masses.
A great way to call bullshit on that is what you tell your own kids. Liberals can't fathom a connection between choices and outcomes when it comes to poor people, but can clearly see the connection when it comes to their own kids. That's why parents stay after their kids regarding school, their behavior, avoiding pregnancy, not hanging with the "wrong" crowd, etc. And that's why liberals trip over themselves on this thread to deny the 7 points I wrote matter in the least.
You are the one who is tossing out social opinions as though they were fact, because you can't stumble onto any real evidence to support your bias.
Are you involved in - engaged in may be a more correct way of putting it - helping poor people make better choices? Educating them in the ways of making better assessments of options available to them? What are you doing to help create better value systems in poor neighborhoods? I ask because you certainly seem to have some very rigid positions concerning what is that creates poverty and must surely be doing what you can to alter the landscape of poor people for the better.
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Empirical Studies on the Culture of Poverty Concept vs. Cultural Opinion of Grownup
Researchers around the world tested the culture of poverty concept empirically (see Billings, 1974; Carmon, 1985; Jones & Luo, 1999). Others analyzed the overall body of evidence regarding the culture of poverty paradigm (see Abell & Lyon, 1979; Ortiz & Briggs, 2003; Rodman, 1977).
These studies raise a variety of questions and come to a variety of conclusions about poverty. But on this they all agree:
There is no such thing as a culture of poverty.
Differences in values and behaviors among poor people are just as great as those between poor and wealthy people.
In actuality, the culture of poverty concept is constructed from a collection of smaller stereotypes which, however false, seem to have crept into mainstream thinking as unquestioned fact. Let's look at some examples.
MYTH: Poor people are unmotivated and have weak work ethics.
The Reality: Poor people do not have weaker work ethics or lower levels of motivation than wealthier people (Iversen & Farber, 1996; Wilson, 1997). Although poor people are often stereotyped as lazy, 83 percent of children from low-income families have at least one employed parent; close to 60 percent have at least one parent who works full-time and year-round (National Center for Children in Poverty, 2004). In fact, the severe shortage of living-wage jobs means that many poor adults must work two, three, or four jobs. According to the Economic Policy Institute (2002), poor working adults spend more hours working each week than their wealthier counterparts.
MYTH: Poor parents are uninvolved in their children's learning, largely because they do not value education.
The Reality: Low-income parents hold the same attitudes about education that wealthy parents do (Compton-Lilly, 2003; Lareau & Horvat, 1999; Leichter, 1978). Low-income parents are less likely to attend school functions or volunteer in their children's classrooms (National Center for Education Statistics, 2005)—not because they care less about education, but because they have less access to school involvement than their wealthier peers. They are more likely to work multiple jobs, to work evenings, to have jobs without paid leave, and to be unable to afford child care and public transportation. It might be said more accurately that schools that fail to take these considerations into account do not value the involvement of poor families as much as they value the involvement of other families.
MYTH: Poor people are linguistically deficient.
The Reality: All people, regardless of the languages and language varieties they speak, use a full continuum of language registers (Bomer, Dworin, May, & Semingson, 2008). What's more, linguists have known for decades that all language varieties are highly structured with complex grammatical rules (Gee, 2004; Hess, 1974; Miller, Cho, & Bracey, 2005). What often are assumed to be deficient varieties of English—Appalachian varieties, perhaps, or what some refer to as Black English Vernacular—are no less sophisticated than so-called "standard English."
MYTH: Poor people tend to abuse drugs and alcohol.
The Reality: Poor people are no more likely than their wealthier counterparts to abuse alcohol or drugs. Although drug sales are more visible in poor neighborhoods, drug use is equally distributed across poor, middle class, and wealthy communities (Saxe, Kadushin, Tighe, Rindskopf, & Beveridge, 2001). Chen, Sheth, Krejci, and Wallace (2003) found that alcohol consumption is significantly higher among upper middle class white high school students than among poor black high school students. Their finding supports a history of research showing that alcohol abuse is far more prevalent among wealthy people than among poor people (Diala, Muntaner, & Walrath, 2004; Galea, Ahern, Tracy, & Vlahov, 2007). In other words, considering alcohol and illicit drugs together, wealthy people are more likely than poor people to be substance abusers.
The Culture of Classism
The most destructive tool of the culture of classism is deficit theory. In education, we often talk about the deficit perspective—defining students by their weaknesses rather than their strengths. Deficit theory takes this attitude a step further, suggesting that poor people are poor because of their own moral and intellectual deficiencies (Collins, 1988). Deficit theorists use two strategies for propagating this world view: (1) drawing on well-established stereotypes, and (2) ignoring systemic conditions, such as inequitable access to high-quality schooling, that support the cycle of poverty.
The implications of deficit theory reach far beyond individual bias. If we convince ourselves that poverty results not from gross inequities (in which we might be complicit) but from poor people's own deficiencies, we are much less likely to support authentic antipoverty policy and programs. Further, if we believe, however wrongly, that poor people don't value education, then we dodge any responsibility to redress the gross education inequities with which they contend. This application of deficit theory establishes the idea of what Gans (1995) calls the undeserving poor—a segment of our society that simply does not deserve a fair shake.
If the goal of deficit theory is to justify a system that privileges economically advantaged students at the expense of working-class and poor students, then it appears to be working marvelously. In our determination to "fix" the mythical culture of poor students, we ignore the ways in which our society cheats them out of opportunities that their wealthier peers take for granted. We ignore the fact that poor people suffer disproportionately the effects of nearly every major social ill.
They lack access to health care, living-wage jobs, safe and affordable housing, clean air and water, and so on (Books, 2004)—conditions that limit their abilities to achieve to their full potential.
http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/apr08/vol65/num07/The-Myth-of-the-Culture-of-Poverty.aspx
Expecting nothing of a group is a good way to have your expectations fulfilled. Liberals practice "deficit theory" routinely by apologizing for failure and utterly suspending expectations and standards.
I especially had to laugh at the defense of ebonics. It's so sophisticated! An American needing a translator in America is an impediment to employment, no matter what some liberal linguist thinks about it.
Do we live on the same planet? What evidence do you have to support your opinion? Or is it based on anything other than being ignorant of facts.
I realize many "studies" have been done. The argument has raged from Great Society to this day. For all the "help", they done NOTHING to move the poverty dial because suspension of expectations has fueled at least as much poverty and they've mitigated by the welfare state.
Funny, but you'd never tell you own kids that the 7 points I mentioned aren't dead on. One's actions on those points matter for your kids, but then somehow have nothing to do with it for others.
First, how assumptious and ignorantly opinionated to assume I have kids, which I do not. But it shows how quick you are to rush to your prejudiced assumptions and stereotype people without really weighing facts before opening your mouth. Empirical evidence or your opinion. Let's see, which one will I choose. I'll stick to the evidence, thank you.
Good, you don't. We're all safer that way. Go tell some 17-old that getting knocked up has no connection to poverty. Liberals: Poverty's best friend.
More opinions. Show me your evidence to support your deficit theory.
You're right, it's all just random. Only liberalism and the suspension of self can save poor people. The only way out of poverty is liberalism and the only way in are because of things out of your control. What you do in life is simply not related to poverty. So, don't worry about a thing.
I didn't say I was right. I said I'll stick to the evidence and ignore opinions of people who stereotype based on cultural/class bias. Show me some evidence and I will happily weigh and measure it. If I find it to be compelling, truthful, and logical enough, I will reconsider my position. But I will not fall for baseless claims based on nothing more than a social opinion.
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Yea but there's more to this than meets the eye... because this is actually evolution speaking to us. Those who do not adopt the recommended path, however defined by individual societies, will not project their genes into the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-3hZsXrxaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Having choices is not the same as knowing the nature of it.
That's where you come in. Teach them. But first you need to accept for yourself that they're capable and that's it's right to demand better behavior. Expecting so little is in reality a deep insult.
Who exactly expects nothing from the poor? I grew up working poor in the Bronx and am currently at MIT thanks to a crazily determined mother and a strong, supportive working class community Poor choices are a part of why people are poor, but they're hardly enough of the picture to just be able to point the finger at an entire population and brand them as lazy, stupid, and useless.
Not everybody has a mother who is a licensed teacher who was willing to quit her job to live as a poor housewife so that she could homeschool her children to keep them out of a failing school system. Not everybody has a father who could find and hold onto a union job with good benefits up until his son's sophomore year of high school, weather an eleven-month strike and a plant closure, and manage to get another union job within a few months of being laid off. Not everybody has a landlord willing to hold off a rent increase for a year longer than he had to to cut us a break. Not everyone knows an incredibly kind nun who just dropped off $500 at our doorstep when we couldn't fully make rent on time. Maybe if their families, communities, and institutions didn't fail them they wouldn't fail you.
Thanks for making my point. You avoided the bad choices I mentioned and , like magic, became non-poor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8
Here are the kings of inhumane values! They are the Lords of the Dirty Fucks!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-evildoers/
The Revolution starts here!
We often confuse on this site the relationships that are statistical with the individual cases that do not follow those relationships. A statistical relationship is derived from the lumping together of many observations. For example, among 1,000 people who wed early in life, their average income could be significantly lower than the average income of 1,000 people who married at least 10 years later than the first group. Surely there are poor people who got married later in life, and wealthy people who got married early in life. This kind of exception is common to all of the relationships that we have been talking about in this FORUM. So, the next time we read something that sounds like an over generalization, ask the author for his or her statistical evidence, and then try not to take it personally if we are among the exceptions.
Based on a statistical relationship between early marriage and low income, it might be wise to advise young people to delay marriage (and procreation) for ten years or so, but not longer. This would give the young people time to complete their educations, and gain the necessary experience to select the best marriage partner, while they are still young enough to have healthy children.
Quite logical. I don't think a typical liberal can see it though.
Occupy wants everyone in poverty - but equally!
Very true. So if I do not fallow 1-6 on your list what kind of position would that put me in i wonder? Oh yeah, I would be an OWS protest supporter.
-8 points? That's got to be a record.
I was kinda proud of that too ; )
With a borrowed tent shitting in a park.
The protesters should "occupy" a project and demand an end to the behaviors that create poverty. Nah, bankers are easier targets.
Behaviors which create poverty... like over leveraging on crappy investments and causing the economy to implode while giving yourself fat bonuses? Banksters make themselves easy targets.
How about shipping all the jobs over to China... then pissing away billions on pointless wars necessitating borrowing billions from China which future generations will have to pay in the form of higher taxes... even tho they have no jobs.
OWS is demanding an end to the behaviors which create poverty, just not ones you are apparently concerned about.
Funny, but while we're in a tough down-turn right now, unemployment and poverty correlate way more to the choices I mentioned than anything you mentioned.
OWS is mostly just demanding transfer payments. The behaviors I mention aren't just the ones that I apparently care about, they're the ones that matter the most in terms of poverty drivers. OWSers are just gutless to confront anything but the easy targets.
You leftists really do need to stop obsessing about the "wars". One is hardly a war and the other has been over now for years.
You didn't notice Libya or the massive troop buildup by Syria I suppose... honestly I'm surprised that conservatives who complain about a few billion for social programs are not up in arms about Trillions toward war, nation building, and bank bailouts...
oh and p.s. Charlie Sheen is not living in poverty. He's making magic.
Wars end. Nanny entitlement states just grow and reinforce themselves. Funding dysfunction fails.
The bank "bailout" has been mostly repaid at a profit. Look it up.
No, post the data. You want to make an argument, it's on you to prove your point. Until you do you're just blowing air.
Very hot air. And an infantile attitude.
Do your own research. If it really is a mystery to you that getting knocked up, locked up, dropping out, and the rest of it creates poverty, you're more than I can handle here. LOL. Poverty isn't random. Do you tell your kids "fuck school" because success and failure is random? Smarten up.
Your opinion is not fact. You really need to educate yourself to the difference.
Until you post some supporting data and links you're just talking out of your ass. Which makes perfect sense ...
Sure, it's pretty unclear that dropping out of high school is a poverty driver. Never heard of it before. LOL. Are you really this fucking stupid?
I'm way too smart to spend any more time with an over-opinionated under-educated blowhard like you. You want to demonstrate something other than your ignorance? Post a link.
It's all about what are you going to do for me so I don't have to do anything at OWS. We want it cause you got it. It's not fair cause you have more than me. Why can you set the price you want at your store. Really makes me kind of sleepy just like this sorry ass football game I'm watching Atlanta 34 - Jacksonville 0 at the start of the 3rd.
I'd be quite happy to see all that money going towards blowing up small children in other countries funneled into something more constructive, like fighting poverty or education, or even flushed down the toilet because that is more constructive than war.
Its not a question of having to take money from you, you could be sitting their watching the same football game, with the same tax bill, but if the money were better spent we could both be happy.
How about the war on Marijuana? Do you like paying billions so cops can burst into someone's house and shoot the family dog in front of two small children... over a little bit of pot? Why not put the money into something more constructive?
Last time I checked Marijuana is an illegal drug (agree with it or not) and we pay police officers to enforce the law. The education system sucks mostly because we have allowed the ACLU and alike organizations to sink there teeth into it and destroy it. Teachers Unions are just as guilty as any other reason you can come up with for the failing education system. If we didn't have to pay piss poor teachers massive salary increases every year and were allowed to pay them based on there performance or even fire them when they don't preform, you would save billions a year. I have been to Iraq for two years and Afghanistan for just under three and in that almost five year period, I have never seen a small child that we blew up so please post a link (a credible link) to show stats on how often that has happened to support your claim. Has it happened I'm sure it has but don't cherry pic one incident to justify your hatred for what you know nothing about. I'll be waiting for the link and remember the MSNBC, FOX, NBC, ABC and CNN links arent going to do it.
Well that's my point. Marijuana is illegal, but harmless and a potential source of tax revenue other than income tax. Legalize, Regulation, Tax; and Billions upon Billions of dollars would be saved... not to mention thousands of lives in Mexico.
CIA Drone Strikes kill children, see below. The Alyona show on RT interviewed an English guy in Pakistan investigating the matter the other day... can't find the episode. I would be honestly surprised if Shock & Awe didn't have a few unintended targets as well...
http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/rare-photos-of-cia-drone-bugsplat-bodies-secret-blackhole-battle-released
Here is the difference, The intentional killing of civilians in any action is wrong to me and I would say 99.9% or all human beings. Even though it does occasionally happen in war, it is rare and by no means the goal of the United States Military or any civilized nations military to kill anyone who is a non-combatant.
Well we can both agree on that; I don't think I suggested it was intentional.
I guess my question from someone who's been there is, is it worth it? (the innocent lives and the trillions of dollars)
I can tell you that when I was in the (I will call it a town) of Hit, Iraq and the families came out after we drove the ruthless terroists that had enslaved them into there own homes for months while using them for there propoganda were pretty darn happy we were there. It made me very happy and made me feel that it was every bit worth it. when we went after Al Queda in Falluja during Operation Phantom Fury we gave basically a 72 hour notice that we were comming in and anyone who was not a combatant would be free to leave. We had families comming up to our Vehicles begging us to get them out of there city. It felt pretty good and worth it to do that. When we attacked the Maudi Army in Baghdad who were the ones committing the ethnic assassinations and causing the Suni/Shia strife in the city it felt pretty good and worth it. It's an ugly buisness but I think the one thing that is usually overlooked about the military is that we don't just fight for the people in our country, we fight for who needs us wherever they need us and lay down our lives in the hopes that they can have half of the freedoms that we enjoy.
It's nice to hear there are some positive things are happening over there. I do hope it turns out to be worth it in the end because the price has been very steep.
It would also be nice if the government would invest even a fraction of the cost toward helping its own people; but if it turns out that Iraq is a success, and people are free, I'll agree its probably a few trillion well spent.
"OWS is mostly just demanding transfer payments."
Let's see that list of demands, and the source of your information.
Unless of course it is tattooed on the inside of your anus, which would explain everything.
Oh, they don't see it that ay, I get that. But it's a stream of entitlement, responsibility dodging (whining over student loans, for example), jealousy, and wanting more things for free (healthcare is a right ring any bells?).
If "they don't see it that way" why did you say it - just being an ass?
Wrong. We're happy to pay for health care. We're not happy to pay for insurance that we can't afford because 1/3 goes to "administration" and doesn't cover us when we need it.
Any civilized society takes care of people.
Any civilized society gives you the freedom to take care of yourself. Any civilized society comes with responsibility, and not just the kind to fund someone else's entitlement.
Every working person pays FICA and funds their own Medicare and Social Security.
I think you're missing Rush now ... better turn on the radio.
I got a chuckle out of this
"I think you're missing Rush now ... better turn on the radio."
Pwned.
Notice how many comments are about to be hidden, and by the same 2-3 people. Spewing the same fantasies, unsupported, citation-less, whinny opinions.
Looks like you're going to have to share the record for most negative votes with MASTERbater. LOL
Think you can beat him off?