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Forum Post: Trickle Down Economics is Freedom...

Posted 2 years ago on May 3, 2012, 3:56 p.m. EST by toonces (-117)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Isn't "Trickle Down Economics" the freedom to spend your own money as you would wish?

Isn't the OWS desire for the government to tax people with money governmental oppression?

Isn't freedom to spend your money as you choose preferable to the government taking it?

172 Comments

172 Comments


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[-] 7 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Right now in America we got Trickle Down Poverty.

Government taxation is a way of getting money back into the hands of people who need it. Remember what the Government taxes, it also spends......

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

that wound increase the GDP

or rather the money spent on goods and services

functions of money which keep the people working and producing

[+] -4 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

How does government taking money from people put money in the hands of people?

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Tax the wealthy, provide service to non wealthy!!!.. Support OWS!! Stop the redistribution of wealth from non wealthy to wealthy!!! Vote out 1% lovin republicans!!

[+] -5 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

OWS is the 1%

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

We are the 99%. We fight and sacrifice for the 99%. We stand against the misguided mouthpieces of the 1% who stand against their own interests. Support OWS! Vote out wall st lovin republicans.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

OWS is nowhere near 99%. They would be lucky to approach 1%. If 99% (or even 20%) were to sit and shit in the park, business would close, commerce would stop, and people would die. We are fortunate OWS is just a tiny fraction of the population as a whole.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

We are the 99% because we dont make a million dollars every year!. because we are all races, all ages, all religions, all parties (not many repub/conserv). When we protest we do not have 300 million on the street it is not a literal chant. We represent 99% of the population whether they agree or not. So many citizens are misguided into supporting the 1%. They vote against their own interests to prop up the 1%. It's sad. "aspirational voting" it's called. It's a con job. Don't believe it. Come over from the dark side. We are with and for YOU We need each other. Support the 99%. vote out anti 99% politicians.

[-] -2 points by UnionsCare (-31) 2 years ago

But your politics are of the 1%, the 1% that wants anarchy, that thinks things should just be free, that thinks default itself is evidence enough of the lender's badness to just keep the house, and that think student loans are also something to be defaulted on because they are someone else's fault.

[-] 4 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You don't speak for me or OWS. I don't want anything for free. We want our money back from the criminals who crashed the world economy. the deal was : we give them low taxes, and regulations, they create jobs!. They took our money and sent our jobs overseas, moved their HQ, money overseas to avoid more taxes. Thats a breach of our agreement. We want our money back. We will take it in the form of debt/student debt/foreclosure forgiveness. Support OWS. vote out 1% lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well said.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Thanx.

[-] -1 points by UnionsCare (-31) 2 years ago

And OWS does'nt speak for 99% of the people. Get that straight. Your kind is a tiny fringe in a center-right country.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

We speak in support of the 99%. We are the 99%. The country must and will move left as the right wing party continues to show it's true colors by alienating one group or another, They don't like gays, they dont like women, not minorities or immigrants, they put down the cities, and even attack the elderly. It is inevitable, and it is why they are trying to take the vote away from as many of these people as they can. Support OWS. Vote out right wing extremist republicans

[-] -3 points by UnionsCare (-31) 2 years ago

They're the grown ups. You aren't the 99%, you're a tiny fringe that thinks it knows bet what most people need. That's fine, but drop the self-important "we are the 99%" b.s. You aren't.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Yes we are. Vote out 1% supporting republicans! Support OWS.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

OWS is not the 99% because it is less than 1% that believe that capitalism has failed and that it must be brought down. If the rest of the population does not have to agree with you, then you truly are the <1%

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

the failure of capitalism is simply its disregard for individual people in favor of profit. And although I believe that. I do not believe capitalism is bad, or should be replaced. I am a capitalist. I believe it must be controlled or it will naturally progress to exploit people, and eventually destroy the nation. It must be regulated so that the natural element of greed and selfishness inherent in it do not hurt the people. Support OWS. vote out big business republicans

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Support the 99% ... Demand the elections be national and state holidays

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Greed and selfishness only hurt those who are greedy and selfish, it does not hurt anyone else. Nothing can control greed and selfishness, it is a human condition and can be seen in the greed and selfishness of the OWS movement in addition to their envy and coveting that which belongs to others.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The wealthiest among us have taken our money under false pretenses. it ain't theirs. they got it at the 99% expense. They got it with lies that they would be job creators! instead they outsourced our jobs. Broke the pact we have with them. Breached our contract! Now we deserve OUR money back. We don't want their money. We want the money they stole from us back. Support OWS. Vote out big corp lovin republicans

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

What pact would that be? What contract? I don't recall ever participating in the actions required under the definition of both of those words....when did they transpire exactly?

You can't have something "taken from you" unless you owned it or actually had it in your possession in the first place. How much money-exactly-have they "taken" from you personally? Do you have a figure? Receipts?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I explained it already. They were supposed to be job creators. We were conned. you can stand with criminals who scam you I stand with the 99% Support OWS! Vote out big finance lovin republicans.

[+] -4 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Government is the problem, not private industry. Government makes the rules.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The rules are written by and to benefit private industry, and gov pols are bought and paid for by those corp interests. repeal corp personhood, public funded elections, no lobbying, make politicians accounted only to the people. mandatory voting for all. Support OWS. Vote out 1% lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And squash ALEC.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Yes. Vote out ALEC supporting politicians.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

OWS= <1%

OWS is anti America.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

OWS. American patriots. We are the 99%! We must stand together.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Support the 99% ... demand elections be state and national holidays

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Economic meltdown - yeah that result of greed and selfishness did not hurt anyone other than the white collar criminals that made it happen....................NO........wait a minute

tootes tootes tootes - you have lost any credibility that you may once have had. Hell give it up - you are likely to do more damage to the movements against corruption greed and crime - by supporting them - what with your reputation and all.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Progressive taxation = take from the rich, and give to the poor.

The Federal government is the largest employer of people in the U.S.A..

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Federal employees are hardly "the poor". Progressive taxation= take from the private sector, and waste in the government.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Federal employees would be poor if they did not have the jobs the government gave them. The majority of the "private sector" depends on government contracts (defense industry in particular) for business, and much of the rest of the private sector businesses revolve around vice; unlike most of the government (there are portions which are exceptions) which provides goods and services for the public. Contrary to popular opinion, the public sector is not as wasteful as the private sector. The public sector does not have the overhead of having to pay off shareholders, directors of boards, and other overpriced executives. Much of the so called "overhead" in the pubic sector has to do with following rules to assure services are performed correctly, and following the people's wishes.

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Shareholders are not overhead, they are part of the benefit of private industry. Executives are what enable a company to plan and compete. Government, on the other hand, produces nothing. There is a bureaucracy full of sloths and bureucrats that have become finely tuned to the art of wasting and justifying the wasting of the private sectors lifeblood (money). Government just eats and wastes. The private sector is what produces.

Just as an experiment in thought, what would happen if the private sector was totally wiped out? Everything was government. Where would government get the money to pay for everything?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

If everything was government, if it were not corrupt, we would have a very comprehensive and efficient social system.

Executives and shareholders for the most part are overpaid parasites. Government is necessary organization for community.

My friend, you can think what you want to think. I'm not going to change your mind, but please do think next time you get in your car and go somewhere, think who put that road there.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Where would the money come from?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

The government prints up the money. Where else do you think it comes from?

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Then why can't the government just print up the money so we all can be wealthy and then no one would have to work?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Money is just paper. Right now the government is printing it up and giving it to they're friends (that is not us), but if the government actually printed enough, and gave it to everybody, you'll have enough to wipe your butt with it.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

money is numbers recorded and various banks and reserves

[-] 1 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

True, money is indeed also in digits now.

In God we trust, all others pay digits? but it just don't sound right.

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

So, money is not just paper. Government cannot just print the money without repercussions. There is something other than the paper and the numbers printed on it that gives it its' value? What would give money printed on paper any value?

[-] 2 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Actually, nothing.

Why do you think we are having an inflation right now?

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

If you doubt what they say about inflation, why would you want government to control business in the US?

[-] 2 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

The problem with our government right now is that it has been corrupted by business (big business that is). Our government is not in control; business is.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The government says there is very little inflation.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2040) 2 years ago

Do you believe that?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

cartoonces is worried that The 99% are after his wee pot of CA$H !!!

The poor, frightened little dear is even talking about "Trickle Down Economics", when all those able to breathe and think at the same time can see that these days it is much more of a case of 'Hoover Up Economics' and the only thing "trickling down" is BS !!

For a self description of who and what cartoonces is, see : http://occupywallst.org/forum/who-do-you-think-i-am/ just for an example from, inter alia - http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=user%3Atoonces . I've asked you before and will ask once again - you have been so long here on this forum, yet so little learnt - How Come ?!

Commence your re-education with asking the following :

  • Where does all this "money" stuff come from ?

  • Who issues & decides how much of it there is ?

  • Why & 'From Who' do Sovereign Nation States have to "borrow" at all ?

  • What part does 'Geometrically Expanding Compound Interest Generating Debt' have to play in the subjugation of entire populations with Generational Debt Bondage ?

Also I really think that you will gain from later cogitation after the quite reflection of :

IF after honest reflection of the above cartoonces, you still believe that there is nothing that really needs fundamentally changing in 'Modern High-Finance Kaputalism' then not only are you unable and unwilling to imagine new and better ways to order our affairs BUT you do not actually want others to contemplate a brighter future either !!! That'd make you a "Dog in the Manger" !! Thus, cartoonces - temet nosce !

Stop being so frightened of losing your CA$H, you 0.01%er Lickspittle Slug, no one is after your money - though I'll always have a pot of salt with your name on it ...

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Too funny, LOL - sad that it is also too true. tootes tootes tootes.

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

You are very good at copy and paste.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Yep & why not ?! After all, you keep churning out the same schtup-id shit !!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 2 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

trickle down theory is the top spend money and invest money which is suposed to trickle down to the masses is it working for you ? the first problem is wall street no longer invest it buys and sells stock to extract maximium profit in the shortest amount of time, that's not an investment that creates jobs. secondly the government can ill afford to spend money it doesn't have. we have a huge deficit problem and it's time for the 1% to start paying their fair share.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

It is a government problem. The problem with government isn't that it taxes the private sector too little. The problem is government spends too much.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Silly stuffed cat. WallStreet IS the problem.

They raise the cost of everything and add nothing.

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Wall street is a market that supplies the cash for business. Government is a cash black hole. Government is an alligator that just eats the life blood of the economy.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

WallStreet never paved a road.

Where did you say all that money WallStreet got went?

WallStreet is the prime engine of consumer inflation.

WallStreet adds NO value to anything.

WallStreet skims every transaction hat passes through it.

WallStreet is prime engine of off shoring jobs.

WallStreet profits from every war.

WallStreet never put out a fire.

I can on and on.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Government never produced a job

Where did you say all that money Government TAKES went?

GOVERNMENT is the prime engine of consumer inflation.

GOVERNMENT adds NO value to anything, government just TAKES.

GOVERNMENT SPENDS every cent that passes through it after it has TAKEN it.

GOVERNMENT is prime engine of off shoring jobs (both in sending tax money TAKEN from people and regulations that force companies to offshore jobs).

GOVERNMENT profits from every war.

Government never put out a fire any more than wall street has.

"I can on and on."... Please do.

[-] 1 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

most of these post are to simple to explain the whole trueth first inflation is a complex formula that takes into account money supply (the fed) interest rates and overall increase in the production of goods and services. Now as far as wall st. is concerned they can drive inflation by driving up the price of comodities for huge profit. which drive up food prices as well as energy cost. here is where the government really pisses me off, the government can "cherry pick" what factors to put in the inflation equation. The classic example is the price of gas. gas prices which affect every corner of our economy are not included in the inflation equation. so we have a false inflation rate. coupled with wall st. driving up the cost per barrel of oil in the commodity market and we're getting the big shaft. as far as the government profiting from every war is totally stupid the government in every war we've been in except possibly granada (not sure you can call that a war) put the government in dept. so who does profit from war? government contracters and wall st. invested in those companies. as a side note congressmen also profit with legal bribery from the contracters in the form of campain contributions in order to get the contracts.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Inflation is easy to explain. The more the fed prints, the less your dollar is worth. The more the government authorizes the fed to print, the more goods will cost.

I don't understand why you are making posts upset about inflation when the government says there is no inflation.

[-] 1 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

actually it's both the government taxes too little and spends too much. what happens when the note is called?

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The problem is spending. It wouldn't matter if they took every cent every American had, they would spend more than they got. We need to make sure they do not spend more than they take in as taxes. Once they have been limited to receipts, then we can talk about raising taxes on everyone.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Balanced Budget amendment.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

toonces, you are confused and make no sense. I honesty don't what you mean or what your opinion is. Most postings I've seen from you follow along this motif.

But since you have some hankering for Trickle Down Economics, but only because you mention it, what you said about it is inherent, I will respond to the that utterly horrific failure started under Reagan.


..................................THE FAILURE OF TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS

"Overall, in inflation-adjusted dollars, average after-tax household income grew by 62 percent during the 30 year period under study starting in 1980, according to the CBO. This sounds great — but only until you look a little closer."

"For those at the bottom — the one-fifth of households with the lowest incomes — the increase was just 18 percent. For the middle three-fifths, the average increase was 40 percent. Spread over nearly 30 years, these gains are modest, not meteoric."

"By contrast, look at the top 1 percent of earners. Their after-tax household income increased by an astonishing 275 percent. For those keeping track, this means it nearly quadrupled. Nice work, if you can get it."

"So when critics accuse the Occupy Wall Street folks of class warfare and redistribution of wealth, they've got it wrong. We 99 Percenters are arguing that we've had 30 years of wealth redistribution -- all in favor of the upper-upper class. It's been a covert class war against middle-class and poor folks."












Tooonces, just one question for you, why do you attack one of the biggest causes that this OWS movement stands for?

The Puzzler

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Nice reality check.

[+] -4 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I understand that you are confused. It's like I am trying to explain calculus to a cat.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Yes, to your cat. Maybe that's the problem toonces.

Don't worry there's always tomorrow. We can gather our wits and try focus on the facts. Try it you'll like it.

Puzzlin

[+] -4 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

those at the bottom never bothered to take advantage of a booming economy. they just sat there expecting to get higher wages for the same unskilled labor. As the economy grows & innovation replaces manual labor - it is up to the individual to attain new skills to keep up. So you wind up wondering how the world passed you by because you are buying into this communist garbage being spewed by your professors & communist leaders.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Trickle Down Economics is an economic weapon of mass destruction engineered by financial elitist. It allows the few to inflict harm on a mass scale and rake in enormous wealth.

[+] -4 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Communism is a power weapon for government to use to justify taking the property of others. It allows government to oppress and justify the killing of their citizens.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Communism in today's America is nothing more than a rich man's tool to tap into old fears.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Does "DEMOCRACY" ever get a look in, in your so called 'thinking' at all ?!!!

multum in parvo ...

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Pure democracy is a tool to oppress. It is refered to as the tyranny of the masses and can be explained... If 50% of the people voted to make all high cheek boned people (Indians) to be slaves, then the high cheek boned Indians would be slaves.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

@ cartoonces : Your mala fides are now well established and just like the disingenuous and specious individual that you are - you attenuate and caricature your faux point with an example constructed within the dark recesses of your so called 'mind', purely in order to further ply your reactionary twaddle.

Representative Democracy in The U$A is palpably failing miserably and there is no such thing as "Pure Democracy" anywhere in The World today. Conscientious Participatory Democracy is what is needed.

For a real insight into The State of Democracy (ie demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy !!) in The U$A today and just who is subverting it and how, see (if you dare) :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dqsNrmXgP0

Carlin nails it evertime.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Acmadinajad got 97% of the vote.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

WTF has Assmaninadinnerjacket got to do with it ?!!!

WTF are you actually on about cartoonces ?!!

Has your fuzzy little head gone "POP" ?!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

A cerebral aneurism popping could explain much about tootes.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Tho' one ought not really poke fun at the clearly afflicted - I'm starting to think that cartoonces may be the worlds first living brain donor !! Though of course in his case, 'donating' would be far too socialist a concept so presumably he has sold the wee wrinkly walnut sized thing as it was annoying him rattling around his cranium ...

ab absurdum ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

ahhhHAAHAHahahahahheheheehe....wooOHoooooHahaha......sorry. That is a sobering thought...mnphf...hp.hhp...ooooooooohooheheheheee

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Looks like democracy is working just as predicted in Egypt... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/egyptian-military-detains-hundreds-in-pre-election-unrest/

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Iran is a Democracy. Acmadinajad was elected with 97%+ of the vote. Sadam had similar popular results with his elections in Iraq as did Kim sun Il of N Korea

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

@ cartoonces : You are the dissembler in chief on this forum for sure.

"Iran is a Democracy" when it suits you & Iran is a Theocracy when it suits you and for you to try to use Saddam Hussein's Iraq & North Korea as some kind of exemplars of Democracy really speaks volumes as to the depths of your specious and facile twaddle. Further, your reference to Egypt - a country clearly in transition from US supported Military Dictatorship to some semblance of Democracy, is also testament to your negative, frightened and bleak world view.

Why don't you have the courage to spit it out and say what you really think about Democracy in The U$A and elsewhere instead of all this snide, sneaky, insidious claptrap ?

You fundamentally distrust and indeed - hate other people and you are deeply frightened of the thought of any "Democracy Trickling Down" to anywhere near you, any time soon !

Thus reflect upon : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JwmIBSMzSM&feature=related ... !!

Listen to it and weep ! Slither on cartoonces !! Go see if you can find an insight into the Human Heart !!!

~*~

gnothi seauton ...

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

You are amazingly verbose and wrong at the same time. I suspect the same difficulty in your being able to decipher my moniker (toonces as compared to your incorrect interpretation: cartoonces), is at the heart of your problem in being able to comprehend syllogisms. Perhaps you should put down your bong and read instead of copying and pasting random bits of fodder from the internet.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You seem a bit animated cartoonces ! What's got your goat ?!! What "syllogisms" do you think that you have employed, when your fundamental premise is so out of whack ?!!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Your deficiency seems to be comprehension.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

people are capable of respecting a minority

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

EXACTLY:

There are many examples of the downside of direct democracy. Letting the uneducated often prejudice masses decide everything has often turned out to be a bad idea.

Example: They have direct democracy in Switzerland and in 2009 they voted to disallow minarets on mosques. It is kind of like not allowing steeples on churches because religion offends you.

Anther example is right here in the US. California proposition 8 was a direct democracy ballot question that eliminates rights of same-sex couples to marry. An extremely narrow majority of Californians was able to use the direct democracy mechanism to single out a minority group and oppress them.

[-] 2 points by ClearTarget (216) 2 years ago

Haha, grasping straws there buddy. How exactly does "trickle down economics" equate to freedom? Freedom for 1%ers to screw over the 99%?

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Exactly and the urine running down their legs as their bladder lets go contemplating more profits at the expense of others.

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Freedom to spend your own money as you would choose.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

i hope to god that the ows isnt stupid enough to think that more money in government is the solution! wowza! more money in our hands in the solution.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

They do.

Private industry: bad

government control: good

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

how the heck did you get minus 91 talk points or whatever they are?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

and just for the shear fun of it caroonces is one wordy twaddle he/she most have a thesuarous app right on his desktop

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Perhaps we dont need trickle down economics, or bottom up economics.

Perhaps we dont need to choose between two polar opposite solutions on every single issue?

Perhaps we just need one basic set of rules that everyone has to follow?

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Trickle down economics is a description, not a rule. Bottom up economics is accomplished through government regulation and rules.

[-] 1 points by ericweiss (575) 2 years ago

trickle down worked for the Koch Brothers - it can work for you too

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

As well as George Soros, Stephen Spielburg, Warren Buffet and Barack Obama, among others. It also has worked for me and you (unless you have not been motivated enough to take advantage of your good fortune of having been born in the United States).

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Throughout history, when the economy is strong and we are productive poverty diminishes.

Look at North Korea vs South Korea. South Korea has become a economic, driven, production powerhouse. They are creating high quality products from great companies like KIA, Hyundai, LG, and Samsung. South Korea's poverty rate is lower than the US rate.

The folks in North Korea are starving. They really do not produce anything. They have very little infrastructure. Take a look at this satellite image of North and South Korea at night. http://tinyurl.com/752lzyg

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

All the more reason to put a leash on all of the corporate Kim Jung Ills.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

North Korea would thrive better if they could obtain the freedom, liberty, and capitalist opportunities folks have in South Korea,

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And the business management/regulation of the South Korean Government apparently.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

On the business friendly ranking of countries South Korea is about even with Japan, Austria, France, and Germany.

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I don't think the OWS mob is interested in individual freedom and prosperity. OWS is about governmental control of economy and individuals.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by darrenlobo (204) 2 years ago

You've got the tax part right. Taxation is just a nice way to say theft.

Forget the trickle down part. What we need is a free economy that allows small business to thrive rather than the mixed economy of today that helps the too-big-to-fail.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Amazing how someone would down vote this...

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

"Trickle down" suggests that in some way "the money" is "directed" towards the "top" of society. Its an experiment that we tried, and the results have been negative.

Why not try the alternative now, "Bubble Up Economics". The money is directed towards the base of society, through a public works project like NAWAPA:

http://larouchepac.com/infrastructure

that would create many millions of jobs, that would actively improve our infrastructure and economy. The pay received by workers would "bubble up" to the upper levels of society through consumer spending, etc.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

arturo- bubble-up is a good idea; but your (cult determined) choice of public works program is an asinine plot to destroy half the country. forcing rivers to run in reverse, to send water from where it is, to the middle of the desert is a terrible destructive idea, and is not democratic or acceptable. Larouche dogma is from a dangerous cult.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Then according to you, most American people are asinine, because they generally support NAWAPA once they understand it. I would not agree. What could be so terrible about bringing water to the desert? The Israeli's did it, nothing terrible happened. There is nothing cultist about that. Besides, attacking the man is an ancient philosophical fallacy, discredited by Socrates over two thousand years ago. Get with it.

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

where do you get your information? most people support it? I seriously doubt that.
I am not attacking you,. I just point out that you are simply towing the line of the cult you belong to., full disclosure you know.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/bnelson/the_rip_van_winkle_of_water_pr.html

sums up my position well,. we don't need giant command and control mega-projects that are hugely destructive. we will do quite well with appropriate sized projects, local generation and water management not something that destroys whole watersheds and spawning streams, and on and on. ., Permaculture, Degrowth, Relocalize, SlowMoney, GlobalSafe. .

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Our activists have been quite busy lately promoting NAWAPA and the response from the public has generally been quite positive. American people favor progress and new technologies. They see what you advocate as moving backwards.

You know our water situation could become quite desperate in the near future if we don't do something about it. A lot of the water we depend on comes from underground sources that are being depleted.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

well sure, you tout the idea to random people, who have never given it much thought, and it sounds swell,. a sales pitch. it is different when you look at evidence and there are many massive hydro electric projects to look to for results of massive water manipulation programs,. there are many sever and unanticipated results. there is massive destruction in every development and this one is just bigger. Also why do we need water in the desert? I like the desert, you know, as a desert, with limited water. all eco-systems are unique, all climates valid.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Its not just that we need water in the desert, we need water where ever we are, and much of our underground water supplies are running out. What are we going to use for agriculture? What are we going to use for drinking water?

We are going to have wars over water if we don't solve the water problem. What is your proposal? To just let people die off? Reduce the population to about a billion people? Are you willing to be one of the people who has to die so that others can enjoy pristine wilderness?

There would be some destruction from NAWAPA, but this kind of water management project would allow life to flourish on a much greater level than it ever had before. We can have forests or farms where deserts once were.

Also, if we learn how to engineer whole continents, which is what NAWAPA is really about, then eventually, we will be able to engineer whole planets, making them inhabitable to living things, and we will become able to spread life throughout the solar system and eventually the universe.

You see this way of thinking is actually much more "green" than anything the environmentalists have yet to imagine.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

steeling what we abused out of existence is not a solution. self restraint is a start. cities by definition exploit the surrounding areas as they can not produce what they need, (food, materials,etc.) this is that same,. or just an extension of that,. it is industrial agriculture that sucks aquifers dry, the solution is to break the corporate monopoly on food, and energy production. profit as the only motivation does not make mega-corps protectors of the environment, in fact the method seems to be burn it all down get out what you can in the short term and move on,. . a sad record.

the world can easily sustain all of humanity, we just have to start working with the life that is here.

why always with the "you want everyone to die" line of crap ? your proposal is terribly destructive, I oppose it. nuf said.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

The environmentalist movement is anything but the grassroots movement it pretends to be. The biggest and most influential groups receive tens of millions of dollars in funding every year, and the boards of trustees and directors reflect this. Who is running the WRI, the NRDC, and ED? Bankers, hedge-fund managers, big oil—the list goes on. But it goes even deeper than this, for the biggest student movements, such as Focus the Nation, Step It Up, and the StopGlobal Warming Now movement, are financed, organized organized, and deployed by hard-core synarchist Felix Rohatyn. These unwitting young people, organized by New Age fascist freak-show Bill McKibben and his Middlebury College cronies, are designated to be the Jacobin shocktroops which tear apart the social order with their lunatic demands of “pandas, not people!”

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Blah, Blah, Blah!!! Support OWS!! Support a clean environment, Cap n trade, Alternative energy!!!, rescinding big oil subsidies, Vote out big oil, pollution loving republicans.!!

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Apart from the sick doctrines of Huxley and company, all strains of environmentalism are also based upon the madly fraudulent and genocidal doctrines of Thomas Parson Malthus (1766-1834). Malthus was first employed to explain why the Irish had to starve. Malthus preached that the world was overpopulated because population increased faster than the food supply; but considering that he came from a wealthy family of seven children, and he had three children of his own, what he really meant was the world was too full of poor and dark-skinned peoples—and don’t forget the Irish! But, of course, he did work for the British East India Company, the world’s foremost drug-running cartel.

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

so even when there is no bite on your people-culling meme you just go there anyway,. ok then.

people are environmentalists for many reasons,. perhaps just one, is the recognition of population numbers in all creatures and the carrying capacity of the land,. not just man, you seem too hung up on man, we are not the ONLY life here. people do need to learn to control their numbers as all living things must.

how do you think you can lump all people with concerns for the-life-we-live-in as some monolithic group,. this is clearly simplistic and foolish.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

This movement is using you:

This new brand of Malthusianism was presented to the world in apocalyptic terms. No longer was it simply an apology for permitting poverty and famine; now the entire human race was threatened with extinction because we had taken technology too far, we had developed too quickly. Paul Ehrlich, as fanatical as they come, published his concoction of fascist psychobabble, The Population Bomb, in 1968. His argument went as follows: “A cancer is an uncontrolled multiplication of cells; the population explosion is an uncontrolled multiplication of people. We must shift our efforts from the treatment of the symptoms to the cutting out of the cancer. The operation will demand many apparently brutal and heartless decisions” (emphasis added).

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

I don't know why you just post the talking points from some religious-right anti-reality bubble worldview. You do realize, that the vast majority of people, do no exist inside your constructed reality? It is fantastical, the way you present people, groups, or well defined concepts in ways that feed your silly bubble. However in actual reality; people understand 'blind faith' is irrational, and that not looking at science and going on biblical dogma is rather dangerous. Observing that a population can exceed carrying capacity for only a time (till stored resource deplete), and that die-back is the inevitable outcome, is a simple logic any farmer can school you on. Why try to assassinate the messenger?

Using logic and reason to balance society, to adjust our social order, to coincide with the situations as they arise, is the only way humanity will continue,. what exactly are you arguing for "anti-environmentalism"? Who does that serve?

You try to paint a huge diverse movement as a single monolithic hive-mind created by one individual some hundreds of years ago,. most 'environmentalists' have probably never given much thought to him, he is not a demi-god at the national headquarters, oh, yeah, there is no organisation, just a bunch of varying groups of individuals, with a common cause, human survival, and more abundant living for all life. Please try to keep you paranoid fantasies under wraps, they are counter productive. There is no "green menace", just people bright enough to see what is better for them and their children. I foretell, reality is going to win this little battle.

REPLY to below; the "economic collapse" is created by the banksters, to pillage more and more,. . No "environmentalist philosophy" is not stopping development,. corporate banksters and their tools in government are keeping the economy broken. If all the money created and given to the private for-profit banks,(the bailouts) had been used to fund a high-speed rail system, and some new needed infrastructure, money would be flooding the economy, people spend the little money they get,. the less we get the more of it that we spend.

There is no end to the good projects that we could be working on while stimulation the economy, the problem is simple the 0.1% have all the cash and are keeping it locked up,. Obama should have started a national works project like high-speed rail and rebuilding of city transit everywhere the day he took office,. things people need and will use every day,. what we got was hedgefunders given more hedges to play with, in their stupid casino system. NAWAPA is just a idea terrible, however there remain many better ideas.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

In case you haven't noticed, we are in the midst of economic collapse, and that is certain. Environmentalist philosophy is being used to keep us from doing what is necessary to revive our economy, such as NAWAPA. Watch our economy continue to collapse as long as we reject such projects.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

reply to..Malthus was not just any.... Wrong. Malthus was never employed by East India trading Co. Whatever genocide or exploitation BEITC committed, it was not at the behest of Malthus. Artie, try at least reading the wiki article on Malthus. I bet you don't know anything about "The Population Bomb either. Malthus did not advocate the extermination of anyone. He did point out that a nation (or a planet) has a carrying capacity determined by food production capability. That remains a fact.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

You are totally mischaracterizing Malthus. I suspect you never read Malthus but are relying on your "one source" again. Malthus was in fact concerned about the prospect of people starving. You got it all wrong.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Malthus was not just any old country parson, but the official chief economist for the British East India Company (BEIC), the largest monopoly the world had ever seen, with an army in the late 18th and early 19th centuries that was larger than that of the British government itself. In fact, the slave-trading and dope-pushing BEIC was the British Empire. And when the BEIC set up its Haileybury College in 1805 to train its officials, they appointed Malthus as the very first professor of political economy in Britain, actually in the world. Malthus's students over the next several decades became the BEIC's administrators, and systematically applied his policies of genocide to keep the native populations under control. They killed tens of millions in India alone, including by forcing them to grow opium instead of food, which opium the BEIC then used to poison the Chinese.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Distractions!!!! suport ows. support the environment. vote out big oil republicans.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Who else supports environmentalism? -

In 1961, Sir Julian Huxley, by then, president of the Eugenics Society of Great Britain, in collaboration with Britain’s Prince Philip, founded the World Wildlife Fund (WWF), the first president of which was the former card-carrying Nazi, Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands; Bernhard was succeeded in 1976 by John Loudon, the former CEO of Royal Dutch Shell and chairman of Shell Oil Co. Prince Philip would take the helm from 1981 until 1996. The WWF, as documented extensively by EIR (see “The true story behind the fall of the House of Windsor,” a Special Report by EIR, 1997), was involved in countless acts of genocide, poaching and drug running, assassinations, coups, and launching scores of conflicts. Prince Philip, one of the key environmentalist ringleaders throughout the entire post-war period, has provided the world with plenty of evidence indicating his true nature.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Get out of the weeds. You either support clean, air, water, food or you don't! Support OWS! Vote out big oil lovin republicans.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

environmentalism, Earth Day: Washington, D.C. [Credit: Todd Gipstein/Corbis] political and ethical movement that seeks to improve and protect the quality of the natural environment through changes to environmentally harmful human activities; through the adoption of forms of political, economic, and social organization that are thought to be necessary for, or at least conducive to, the benign treatment of the environment by humans; and through a reassessment of humanity’s relationship with nature. In various ways, environmentalism claims that living things other than humans, and the natural environment as a whole, are deserving of consideration in reasoning about the morality of political, economic, and social policies.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

As in the 1930s, today's fascists aim to destroy the nation-state based on expanding industrial technology and replace it with a feudalist zero-growth society, a new Dark Age. The Nazi movement was fostered by British oligarchical circles who hoped to destroy the threat Germany and Russia represented to their geopolitical designs. So today the green fascist movement is nurtured and manipulated by those anti-progress Anglo-American factions best khown as the supporters of Global 2000 and the Club of Rome.

As we document, Die Griinen (the Green Ones), as the environmentalist/ disarmament political party is called, are joining forces directly with such openly neo-Nazi forces in West Germany as the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD).

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Where would the money you propose to "bubble up" come from?

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

First, we would have to pass Glass Steagall, to remove the fictitious money from the system, and to determine which financial institutions deserve government support and which should be allowed to go bankrupt.

Then, we would establish a National Bank, in the tradition of Alexander Hamilton, which would create credit to finance the development projects. Most of this money would be paid to workers and various companies.

The important thing is to realize that the money creation mechanism should not be private, as in the Federal Reserve, because this allows the private owners to manipulate the economy through expansion and contraction of the money supply, and to profit from its fluctuations.

Instead, the money creation mechanism should belong to the public, and benefit the public through physical development projects.

Those who are apt at management or are entrepreneurial would have unlimited opportunity to gravitate towards the top.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

toonces (0)

[+] -5 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

GypsyKing....

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (2779) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

Toonce-the 1% does not spend money-they now have so much money that one person or even a large family could never make a dent in the amount of money that is being held.These huge piles of cash can't be affected even by a family of four spending 20 million dollars per year EACH.If the purpose of cash stockpiles is not to ever be spent the only other reason to hourd all of this wealth is for the purpose of power and influence-or perhaps to corrupt the political process by purchasing members of Congress.Besides that,the activities of the cash houarding 1% also are causing inflation to rise which wastes away needed funds from less affluent people where the funds of the 1%,while reduced in buying power never are affected to the extent that the wealthy family might have o do without any of the endless fancy perks such as extravagant insurance policies,fancy and extensive stock portfolios,lavish vacations,parties,residences,boats,vehicles,real estate empires and so on and on and on that the 1% need so badly...Fuck you rich people-I hope you someday get what you so richly deserveIATtrash

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (2779) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

How can you or anyone argue that your life,well being or personal freedom is being wrecked if you and your spouse face large tax liabilities if your net worth ii =s more than 40 million usd with a combined yearly income over 2 million?If you are less wealthy than that it probably is unlikely you need to be bothered so why do you care?Do you think individuals in the top 1/10 of the 1% care about you,or do you fear a slippery slope taking you into a society that is unsafe for those who wish to live in obscenely grotesque luxury?Perhaps YOU live in obscenely grotesque luxury and you don't like the thought that sometimes comes into your mind-this is obscene & grotesque wealth and unjust and someone may hang me by the heels on the awning of a gas station someday.Since you can't change the first part,you want to change the second part by instituting a fascist police state to protect the greed crazed 1%-that will not work long term,so why not go build yourselves luxurious bunkers in remote locations-if you can afford it.iat/trash

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The Fed printing money causes inflation.

What gives you the right to decide how another persons money is spent?

Why do you covet another mans possessions?

[-] 3 points by ClearTarget (216) 2 years ago

What gives the 1%ers the right to con and exploit others? How do you justify their harmful criminal behavior?

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

What criminal behavior are you talking about?

[-] 4 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

are you actually retarded or do you just play deficient here on the net?

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I get it, you cannot substantiate the charges made so you call me names. I realize the discomfort you must experience trying to defend an indefensible position.

[-] 4 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

no, I said if you see no crimes in the financial/political system then you must have a hard time just getting through the day,. keep the helmet on, we worry for your safety.

[+] -4 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Again with the insults. Perhaps you are on the wrong side if all you can do is insult the person who questions your position. Please insult me again if there is no answer that can explain your opinion.

[-] 4 points by ClearTarget (216) 2 years ago

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I kind of find toonces as a source of entertainment now.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

cartoonces asks "what criminal behaviour" and as such he is either autistic, a 'faux naive' or a truly ignorant, reactionary half-wit & I'll leave it to readers to judge which - while I'll use his BS comment in order to post the following, in the hope that it will "Trickle Down" :

  • The Essential Documentary - "Inside Job" - Charles Ferguson shines a light on the global financial crisis in Inside Job. Accompanied by narration from Matt Damon, Ferguson begins and ends in Iceland, a flourishing country that gave American-style banking a try – and paid the price ; http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/ ,

  • "The Fall of Lehman Brothers" - On September 15, 2008, the firm filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection following the massive exodus of most of its clients, drastic losses in its stock, and devaluation of its assets by credit rating agencies. The filing marked the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history. The following day, the British bank Barclays announced its agreement to purchase, subject to regulatory approval, Lehman’s North American investment-banking and trading divisions along with its New York headquarters building. On September 20, 2008, a revised version of that agreement was approved by Judge James Peck ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fall-lehman-brothers/ ,

  • "Meltdown : The Secret History of the Global Financial Collapse" - The story of the bankers who crashed the world, the leaders who struggled to save it and the ordinary families who got crushed. September 2008 launched an extraordinary chain of events - General Motors, the world’s largest company, went bust. Washington Mutual became the world’s largest bank failure. Lehman Brothers became the world’s largest bankruptcy ever – The damage quickly spread around the world, shattering global confidence in the fundamental structures of the international economy. ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/meltdown/ ,

  • "Super Rich : The Greed Game" - As the credit crunch bites and a global economic crisis threatens, Robert Peston reveals how the super-rich have made their fortunes, and the rest of us are picking up the bill. Robert Peston, the BBC’s Business Editor, speaks to some of the heavy hitters in hedge-fund and private equity scene. Along with the investment bankers, these are the very people who have been blamed for the current financial woe’s of the world. ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/super-rich-greed-game/ ,

  • "The Midas Formula : Trillion Dollar Bet" - The history behind perhaps the greatest formula ever created in finance: the Black-Scholes-Merton options pricing model. Two of its creators were awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1997. A year later their hedge fund Long Term Capital Management (LTCM) had collapsed with staggering losses of $100 billion due to significant leverage of the strategy. ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-midas-formula-trillion-dollar-bet/ .

Finally on the matter of "criminal behaviour" and further to the above cartoonces - have you ever heard of Bernie Madoff or John Corzine &/or MF Global ?!!!

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Damn your GOOD. I remembered to bookmark this time.

Thanks shadz

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Maybe its because I'm old (58), I don't understand the fascination with documentaries and youtube for information. Whatever happened to reading with references and sources cited?

Back in 2008 the NYT did an outstanding series on what happened in the crash, the Washington Post as well.... including many journals and publications.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I am not much younger than you - I also love reading - the thing is with a well done documentary - it will reach more people in a shorter period of time - even exciting interest to learn more - and read. Reading is becoming a lost faculty as we move forward in communication tech. I don't like it but I understand it.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I guess what the crux of the matter is that I don't trust documentaries. I like something that I can fact check as I read along, flip, go back and forth with, instead of sitting there being lectured..... I guess that one could pause, hit rewind, and such.... but it just isn't the same.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Ah the modern age - it does leave "much" to be desired.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

They crashed the world economy. wasn't that criminal?

support ows

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Not if they didn't break any laws. Seems like the problem is government looking the other way. Looks to me like government is the problem that needs to ba addressed.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

the government are not at the top of this criminal enterprise!. They work for the 1% corporate bosses. We can change gov but nothing will change unless we recognize that the 1% have taken control of gov & robbed us blind. support ows, vote out 1% defending republicans

[-] -2 points by cooperbl (-88) 2 years ago

the obama administration os a criminal enteprise.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The corp criminals who crashed the world economy, stolen our govt, and prey on the 99% are the problem. The politicians are complicit. we must pressure the dems to serve the 99%. Repubs are too far gone. Support OWS. Vote out big business lovin republicans

[-] -3 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Government is the top. Government makes the laws. The problem is government, not capitalism.

[-] 5 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The government is bought and paid for by the corp 1%. Support OWS. Vote out the 1% lovin politicians

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Lobbyists make the laws.

The problem is government and capitalism.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Lobbyists suggest the laws. Its ultimately up to the politicians if they want to side with the people or the lobbyists.

We dont pay them enough, so they dont go with us. They never do. Yet we still only vote for rich assholes every year.

Oh, the irony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI&feature=related

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

We could never pay them enough. I think the stat was in 2010 lobbyists spent 6.3 million dollars for every representative (along with 24 lobbyists per representative)...... so in fact, lobbyists do make the laws.

When the Healthcare Bill was passed, and most representatives were asked if they had read the whole thing.... the answer was no. If you didn't read it, who wrote it?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I agree with you, to a certain point. But if this democracy was real, and we put only people from OWS in the house, senate and presidency, then obviously we would tell the lobbyists to go fuck themselves.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I would hope. Keep in mind power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think the Tea Party failed when they put up representatives.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Thats why I think we need to abolish these two parties, and perhaps all party forms in general.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The tea was about one thing: stop the spending. They got 60 people into congress.

Over half (32) voted for the largest credit card the world had ever seen. In one year, over half their people sold them out.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Thats exactly my point.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The problem is government

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Why do you hold people to two different sets of standards? One could claim that the problem is really human nature. Officials in government get bribed and seduced by power and money.. you understand that, but at the same time, the ones who do the bribing and seducing, the ones with the biggest pockets and checkbooks... they get a free ride? Aren't they held to the same standard? Aren't they guilty of corrupting?

You blame the addict and not the dealer.

[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

That is why the Constitution places control on the power of government over the people. The US Constitution is meant to control the human nature of people in power to gain absolute control. That is the beauty of the US Constitution, it places controls over human nature, and that is why the US Constitution will never be obsolete.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

The US Constitution is a piece of paper. As with any set of laws its only as good as the people who believe in and follow them. It does not miraculously control human nature.

Evidence of that is all around us. It did not control the greed of the corporations/banks or government which is why we are in the mess we are in.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Correct - for the constitution to be strong and meaningful it needs "The People" for whom it was written to stand-up and participate fully in their government.

Own the process or let it own you - your choice.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by cableguy223 (-24) 2 years ago

is that anything like Obama's trickle UP poverty ?

[-] -2 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Precisely! Unfortunately, these people don't get it. They are so used to getting things from the government that it simply doesn't register.