Forum Post: To those who think Occupy Wall Street needs official demands right now.... Think again.....
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 4:22 p.m. EST by therising
(6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Dear sir or madame:
If you are part of the ever present group of very good people who understandably clamor for official demands and leaders, this post may be for you. You, of course, realize there are many specific lists of demands on this forum and elsewhere and there are many people with leadership skills who are utilizing those skills in support of the OWS movement. It's just that none of them are identified as "official".
That probably drives some folks, including you, nuts. Whether you support the movement oppose it, many of you seem frustrated. It seems to be the contention of many of you that, if only there were official demands that were driven hard, we could accomplish something.
It kind of makes me laugh because this method you describe is a tired old model for change which has rarely worked. If this is done early in a movement, opponents pigeon hole, mischaracterize official lists and leaders. In fact, such divisiveness ("we know better" is the attitude) is exactly what has gotten us where we are. John Stewart pointed this out early on when he single-handedly brought down the hugely profitable "Crossfire" show with one appearance. He took the hosts to task (rather colorfully) for creating divisiveness and making it seem as though all Americans were in one of two polarized camps. That simplistic viewpoint drove ratings but it falsely divided us.
Think about this: In four short weeks, the conversation has changed around the country (at moments even the world). That's a pretty big deal. People (citizens of all backgrounds) are have discussions that would have been unthinkable a little over a month ago.
But there's something else you may be missing as you cry out for demands. There is a specific tone to much of the healthy dialogue that's going on around the country. The enduring theme seems to be "finding common ground." We, the 99%, who have been a group by definition for a long time (unbeknownst to us) are now waking up to realize that we have many more things in common than we have in conflict.
This terrifies the 1%. Why? Because it has been preposterous that we, the 99%, have put up with being ruled by and exploited by the 1% for so long. It's also preposterous that the 99% would allow the 1% to destroy parts of the environment and create pollution that makes it difficult to breathe. Many in the 1% will admit that they can't believe we sat still for so long.
But no more. We are realizing now that together we are greater than the sum of our parts. Once we fully comprehend that we actually have the power, we can make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of weakness.
We don't want to make demands. We want to make decisions. That's why we're growing. That's why the president and the vice president and head of the FED, executives of large corporations, construction workers, dentists, lawyers, househusbands and housewives, students, retired people, citizens from aroundthe world etc. have all expressed sympathy for the OWS movement. They see the power of it. And it is for this same reason that the 1% are terrified of this movement. Because they know that if the 99% ever stopped squabbling the jig would be up.
Well, guess what folks? The jig is up.
This lack of blessing a list as official is intentional. Watch the democratic process about to unfold with General Assemblies across the country. Watch as a National General Assembly forms. Watch as elected leaders begin to respond to this powerful block of citizens, the 99%. Stay carefully tuned. This is going exactly the way it should. Soon we will be making decisions from a position of unified strength instead of demands from a position of divided weakness.
Please see this post that gives a bit of info on the upcoming NATIONAL CONVENTION and learn about what will happen if demands aren't met. http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/316-20/7903-occupy-wall-streets-plans-for-a-national-convention
Very good points. As it stands the term "99%" is just a metaphor. Wait until it's a reality, then we have real power. These things take time. Patience, people. Patience.
We need to spread the word on this because I know exactly how many people feel...I've felt the same way. I'm itching for this. But now I realize that I'm itching for it to be highly effective and lasting too. I thank the people on this forum who reminded me of this until I got it.
Me too. I'm one of the masses who has opted out of the political process for longer than I care to admit because I got disgusted with the whole circus. This movement is what got me back into it. That's why I sincerely hope it's legit and not just part of the NWO agenda, as some on the web have suggested (it could very well be).
Nope. It's legit. Authentic. I've spent time in the park, have been studying this all along and have studied the civil rights movement extensively. This is the real deal my friend. You are right to be excited. I am too.
I hope so. You can understand, though, why a reasonably intelligent free-thinker such as myself would be concerned. Soros money behind Adbusters, C.A.N.V.A.S. supposedly being behind "Occupy Together," and NWO's maxim "ordo ab chao." A lot of info to sift through. But then, maybe . . . you're . . .one of them! ; )
Think about it. Suppose this was really, originally, part of some secret scheme by a secret cabal or other. People from around the nation and around the world gather in sympathy and solidarity, and become aware of both their shared burdens and their shared power. People physically assemble around the world in fellowship. What then? How do you turn that to a nefarious purpose. It's an objective good.
Maybe they hoped for financial disruption. Maybe they hoped to manipulate things for political gain. Maybe they work to establish some sort of oppressive world government. I don't believe any of those things, but even if they were true, the conspirators overreached. They can't control this. Even if they've already "won", even if this was all an elaborate ploy to spite Brookfield properties, the peaceful assemblies of people in the streets will keep growing.
Unless their end game was really for the people to rise up and work for a better tomorrow. In that case... kudos to them, I guess. That's a pretty cool conspiracy. They still don't own the movement though.
Ah yes, should have kept reading. THAT is what I meant by 'chaos.'
When you get to be in your mid-50's like I am, watching things gradually get worse for the little guy no matter who's in control of the White House, you tend to get a bit pessimistic, and suspicious. If you read my comment two steps down I do say something to the effect of they might have opened up a big can of worms. So I might as well get on board. If it's a plot, you're screwed whether you get on board or not. If it isn't, it's a chance to be a part of history. So why not be a part of it? Either way, I guarantee, this is going to be the biggest thing in the 21st century so far, at least since 9/11.
Didn't see your post down there. I agree! It's great that older folk also support and are a part of this movement. I think it's a tad harder for them too. I feel that for a lot of them, at some level, joining the movement means admitting they failed to act, or were duped into thinking they had no choice. They worked hard, accepted the increasingly rigged rules, and managed to make it. They learned some harsh lessons and learned what they felt were difficult realities of life that one just had to deal with. But when they come to their kids with the wisdom they won at high price, the kids answer : " No. You were just fooled." I know there is a lot of that in my dad anyway.
Of course, there are also a lot of them who say : "It was about god damn time!" So, anyway, thanks for being here!
Totally understand but here to tell you... not a plot. This is the real deal and no one can control it. This is a decentralized people's movement.
I hope you're right. It's a pretty exciting thing. The more I'm at this site, the more positive I feel about it.
It's easy to list a lot of acronyms and lob out musings. The fact is that the genuine heartfelt desire to live a full life in community with others and be free is what started this movement and it is also what powers it. All the acronyms and capital letters will drop away. I think Breyton Breytonbach summed it up when he said this before being sentenced to prison for his non-violent direct action activity:
"Whether we win or whether we die, freedom will rise like the sun through the morning clouds."
Martin King said it like this:
"No lie can live forever " "Truth crushed to earth rises up."
Rise up. Rise up. We are human beings. And whatever system of organization we utilize to govern our activities should serve our community and serve us as individuals. We refuse to feed ourselves and our lives into a systems that is consuming the light of life and isn't really benefitting anyone when you get right down to it.
To paraphrase James Baldwin: We do not know the precise shape of our future. But we know that it is ours. We know this, paradoxically, by the moral failure of our oppressor. And we begin, almost instinctively, to build a new way of life."
It was the beautiful Bob Marley who uttered these five words with joy: "Oh what a new day."
This is our sunrise. The sun is rising around the world. And we are beginning to feel its heartening warmth upon our faces. Feels good doesn't it?
Rise up. Rise up.
You sound passionate and sincere, as do many others on this website. A lot of intelligent dialog going on. I look at it like this. Even if it was started as some grand plan by the 1% to destabilize the world economy so they can come in and sweep up, they may have started something that will turn out completely different than they anticipated. Something big is coming, everyone can feel it. I figure, maybe, when it's all said and done, it'll be something of an improvement over the present situation. It can't be much worse.
I don't know how much it matters if this whole thing was a "set-up" or not... Chaos and collective rage, contemplation, diverse voiced opinions, public and leaderless organization and cooperation- those things cannot be part of a set-up, almost by definition. By the way, I mean chaos in the best sense of the word.
This man, he speaks the truth.
The jig is up.
The insistence of the system to get us to voice specific demands is basically it going : "Please just tell me what you want! Is it money? I can give you money. Is it fame? I'll give you anything, just please let me go. I don't want to die!"
The folks in the country clubs and boardrooms are secretly terrified. They always thought this day would come. But they have nothing to fear. This is a non-violent revolution. They have nothing to lose really and everything to gain.
Eventually the 1% will realize they've truly lost as much of their life to this system as the 99% ( if not more) and they will, in time, join the 99% with a sense of relief, realizing (paraphrasing the the words of James Baldwin) that they can be, just be, and step put of the lie and the trap of history, step out of their historical attitudes (that really aren't theirs at all). It will be a beautiful thing seeing them recalled to life. The things they will say to us are exactly the things we have said to them. It will be a new day and the 99% will become the 100%.
And it is not a particular point of view that will flourish. What will take root is the persistent and simple view that humans must benefit from the system rather than be its food.
I agree. There is a similar view in After Democracy by Todd. The fact is, quality of life is also dependent on the climate of your society. A society with a lot of inequality, a lot of poor people and a lot of anger, at the end of the day, just isn't really fun to live in. No matter how many diamond studded Ferraris you happen to have.
Note : the book isn't advocating the end of democracy. It's warning about rising oligarchy.
I'd love to read that. It's funny, as you probably know, Citibank issued a memo to it's wealthiest clients in 2005. They didn't expect it to be leaked of course. In it they advised their clients to invest in companies that provide luxury goods (Louis Vuitton, Ritz Carlton etc.) because the middle class was dying in U.S. and worldwide. They said people could make a lot of money off the "new plutocracy". Citibank said U. S. was no longer a democracy / republic but a plutocracy. They said the only thing that could gum up the works for this money making opportunity was the masses realizing that they had the power with one person one vote.
Fast forward to today.
Google Citibank memo plutocracy and it should come up. They keep trying to delete it off the web and it keeps popping up. People should post it to this forum. Shows how the 1% really think of the 99%. This is how they speak in the board rooms and country clubs.
And I'll tell you something else. They also, at this moment, are praying for the one thing that would destroy the movement: violence. We can't let that happen. And if they try to provoke it using provocations/ provocateurs, we should sit down and say. "We are non-violent. This person is not one of us.". Then the provocateur will just look silly on the evening news. And more people will gravitate towards supporting the movement.
It's a pretty good book by a french demographer. A lot of it is built on statistics in France but much of it is valid around the world. It shows very convincingly how the publicized "divisive" and "serious" "political issues" on which the parties differentiate themselves are just smoke and mirrors to hide the fact none of them are willing to offer what the people really want.
For example, the whole "culture war", the animosity between different religious groups or between immigrants and the natives? Overblown fabrication. How can he say that? By looking at the mixed marriage statistics. Union between people of different races and religions is still steadily increasing in all civilized nations, as it has for quite a while now. They pretend to defend our culture or values against some other encroaching group, but really they're only doing it by pointing at another guy like them who's running the exact same con on the other group.
Without the interested manipulators, we usually all get along pretty fine and are usually angry at the same abuses. There were riots a while back in the french suburbs. Immediately, politicians and media were all "Oh look! All those angry, disenfranchised and dangerous immigrants! Muslims mostly. And the violence! What terribly divided nation we have." The right emphasized the "dangerous" part and the left the "disenfranchised" part, but they basically offered the same fraudulent picture. The reality was the rioters were a pretty diverse and representative mix of young people pissed off by the lack of opportunities. When that became impossible to deny, they even tried to turn "young people" into a social class.
Incidentally, the whole antagonism between americans and french? Yea, fabrication too. The real, serious issues facing the people of both nations are pretty much the same.
I wish I could click the up arrow a hundred times for this post. This so speaks to our situation in U.S. thank you so much for sharing this. There's a book by American author that does something similar. It's something like the Culture of Fear and shows people are afraid of all the wrong things when you look at statistics. I'll dig it out and post title author here. This is such important work people do, telling the truth. Wish more authors would pop up and do this.
I wonder how much of the luxury goods are bought by the upper middle classes in a vain attempt to associate with the upperclass.
Excellent post. I'll be bookmarking this for future reference.
This is a decentered revolution for a new era. It drives a certain personality type insane with frustration.
Thanks for all your great comments all around this forum! I always look forward to your comments when I'm reading a post.
Likewise!
Have a great day!
That tension, as Martin King pointed out, is healthy. He and Gandhi created it intentionally. With the press present! Very intentional.
Badly needed, bump.
This is a wonderful post. Thank you.
Please spread the word. So difficult to remain patient but we will need to remain patient if we want a movement that really creates permanent and meaningful change. I'm as iitchy as the next person to see us use our momentum. Nothing wrong with discussing demands, matching, engaging in direct non-violent action all along the way, even now. The only thing I think we should avoid at present is identifying any list or leader as "official". That can come later through a transparent democratic process where people have a real voice and feel trey have a real voice. Needs to be both if this movement is going to stick and not alienate some of the 99%.
Those who oppose and speak out against the movement in fact oppose us, the 99%. They fear it because they have something to loose. They care little that how they profit and gain today, is at the expense of us, the 99%. "The jig is up!"
I agree.
It's worse than ineffective, it's down right dangerous. Look at it this way:
Right now we have a huge variety of thought and idea. Ideas are power and now power is with the people. In order to consolidate our ideas into all but the most vague agendas we will have to create a social structure in charge of organizing the agenda. This structure will, through operation, develop a hierarchy and will, because of its position, have the most influence over the agenda. Now, the ideas are becoming controlled by a few. Power--ideas--are now being consolidated. A party--the vanguard--within the movement is forming.
The vanguard will have the control. When the revolution ends it is they who will be in power. They will do this because from the moment they take control of the movement's ideas they will steer themselves into a position of power.
They may even be benevolent in doing so! The Bolsheviks, for example, believed they were protecting the people against outside capitalist influence! Yet, through the best of intentions they created a dictator and one of the worlds most infamous butchers: Stalin.
I hate to be the broken record but I'll say it again: Through disorder we maintain our freedom!
Wiki Occupy Wall Street
http://www.wikioccupywallst.org
United We Stand ! Let's Build it Together ! Yes we are Us . . .
therising,
Absolutely concur 100%. No demands list. In fact I would include any messages delivered by the boots on the ground in Liberty park are via the signs during the marches or the chants.
Keep this situation highly non-linear. The linear dullards are completely thrown by it.
Those who oppose and speak out against the movement in fact oppose us, the 99%. They fear it because they have something to loose. They care little that how they profit and gain today, is at the expense of us, the 99%. "The jig is up!"
Those who oppose and speak out against the movement in fact oppose us, the 99%. They fear it because they have something to loose. They care little that how they profit and gain today, is at the expense of us, the 99%. "The jig is up!"
It's time for the citizens to rise from consumerism, rise from their sofas, rise and shine.
Those who oppose and speak out against the movement in fact oppose us, the 99%. They fear it because they have something to loose. They care little that how they profit and gain today, is at the expense of us, the 99%. "The jig is up!"
Good post
My plan would be to do what's already been said if you read this forum regularly. This is taken right from homepage or posts on this forum over the past month:
Let the general assemblies form as millions of people are talking, debating and joining in the movement.
General assemblies go to national conference organized by executive committee. National General Assembly formed, one man and one woman for each congressional district.
The 99% (represented by National General Assembly) put forth a list of requested changes.
If those changes are made (you can pretty much guess the groups of speciic demands at this point) then great. If they are not, then we do one, the other or a combination of the following:
A - run our own candidates and win the congressional seats so we end up implementing the changes we initially requested of others.
B - do THIS (please read both links carefully :)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
A lack of official demands causes the movement to become clouded and unprofessional
In order to get action from the top we need to get more organized, choose a spokesman, and have legitimate demands which relate to our cause, not allow protestors to suggest their own
For the most part i agree with every thing that was said by the OP. There is one small problem with this approach. The people supporting this movement will want to move forward at some point. You can only sit around talking about politics for so long. If the activist groups or Unions decide to act first, they will take over this movement and there is nothing you can do to stop it. They are more then capable of flooding these protests with so much propaganda, most people wouldn't even remember what they were originally protesting about.
Like i said, i do agree with the original post but were walking a fine line and not coming up with demands or at least a clear message that every one understands. You are leaving the door open for the Occupy movement to be hijacked.
There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. And this idea of the 99% waking up to their commonality and resulting power...that ide's time has come.
Bongo Jerry, the great Rastafarian poet put it this way:
"Sooner or later but mus' The dam going to bus' And every one will break out Who will stop them? The force? What force can stop this river of people who know their course?"
Sounds like you are proposing or expecting Anarchy ?
Not at all. The opposite of that. My plan would be to do what's already been said if you read this forum regularly. (This is taken right from posts on the homepage and forum posts over the last 4 weeks):
Let the general assemblies form as millions of people are talking, debating and joining in the movement.
General assemblies go to national conference organized by executive committee. National General Assembly formed, one man and one woman for each congressional district.
The 99% (represented by National General Assembly) put forth a list of requested changes.
If those changes are made (you can pretty much guess the groups of speciic demands at this point) then great. If they are not, then we do one, the other or a combination of the following:
A - run our own candidates and win the congressional seats so we end up implementing the changes we initially requested of others.
B - do THIS (please read both links carefully :)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
I have seen both of them before... They are not official demands from what i understand. They are just one of 1000's of user submitted list of demands.
You are exactly right. That's of course the point I made in the original post.
It's very interesting to read what the timeline is here. This is a plausible plan for revolution. This is going to work. There is real light at the end of the American tunnel. I love this country.
You people are so fucking stupid.
Actually, I think your comment might indicate you need to take a look in the mirror my friend. Why do you harbor such disdain for people who are fighting for you. You are part of this movement and we will welcome you with open arms.
I think this movement needs a leader, because it needs someone who knows about law, economic and business to assure that the movement grows beyond a camping trip. Let's face it - you people don't know exactly what you want done - you have a goal, but no idea how to reach the destination, you need an educated man or a woman to guide you there.
This would help, but we don't want a 'guide'. We want a democratic process in which everybody can participate and discuss, and reach consensus. Having a leader or spokesperson kind of defeats the purpose of a public process like this.
That person would need to be above the rest hierarchically. The thing is that a lot of people in the movement don't know anything about law and/or economics, which leads to absurd expectations (and some even go as far as calling it demands). If there isn't someone who can say "no, what these people say cannot and will not happen, we must concentrate on what is possible" you will just end up going in circles between people who know what they are doing and people having outrageous demands.
I'm not saying that it's going to be a single person, but unless you are an angry mob (and you don't want to turn into that), you will need to have some form of official body capable of carrying things through.
It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. The point of the discussion is to educate everybody on what's reasonable, until some kind of majority solution is reached. While people well versed in economics/etc. are good for teaching us, we don't want them making the decisions on their own.
The timing on this is going to have to be spot on or this is going to fizzle out.
This sounds nice, but I do not think it's a realistic scenario.
I just want pot!