Forum Post: To the Admins
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 3:30 a.m. EST by sfcharles
(41)
from San Francisco, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Hey admins-
Big thanks for all your hard efforts so far. And, certainly you've noticed that there is an orchestrated effort by trolls to overtake these forums. It's not an anonymous-style attack anymore, but there is still a boatload of trolls here attempting to undermine this site. They won't tire of it because they like to argue pointlessly for hours. Some of them may even be getting paid to do it.
You know the saying? If you get into the mud with a pig, you both get dirty. The difference is that the pig likes it.
This is not the NY Times site, or CNN, or even the Huffington Post - this is the OccupyWallStreet site. It doesn't have to be this way. It's like calling a private meeting and having a bunch of goons show up frothing at the mouth and turning over the conference table and shouting about their platform. It's intentionally disruptive.
I'd hate to lose the ability to post to these forums, but this isn't working very well right now. Ideas?
i hope that the world turns and that things get better,but what i hope most of all is that you anderstand what i mean when i tell you that even though i do not know you and even though i may never meet you,laugh with you, cry with you or kiss you.i love you with all my heart.ilove you.
Seida, if you were here right now, I'd give you a hug. :)
Thank You Seida.
right back atcha!
I approve this message. I'm tired.
I think it is good to engage most of these people. Some of them have open minds. However, the real hardcore trolls should go. This site does not have to provide free speech to violent hate-mongerers, or, for that matter, to the ones who keep making up cute innocent phony stories about how lazy the unemployed are or how humanities majors are a waste of money. These are just insipid posts. No one is taking away their free speech by throwing them off this site. Let them find their own park!
If your going to let a few snide remarks get you down there is no way your going to win the fight against the real people we are fighting against. Take a breath, remember why YOU are here, and keep at it.
What about enabling the forums to be searchable? Something where you can search on a particular user and see every post by them would be a great start.
Thats a great idea
try not to exert too much effort if caught talking to them
let them exhaust their energy not yours
and as always move post into sub catagory
.
this forum suffers from an avalanche of overload
and need to be divide into sub categories
so the peaceful can construct ideas
and the angry can be pacified
Go figure. A free speech movement wants to censor those that oppose. Pathetic. Bottom line is many, many people just don't agree with you. We don't move to censor you though, because in this 99% awesome country you are allowed to voice your opinions. Perhaps you should go to a commie country.
Nobody has all the truth. There are partisans on both the left and right, and neither has a monopoly on all good values and ideas.
An example discussion where (as much as I agree with quite a bit of it) someone is painting Democratic/Republican as white and black: http://occupywallst.org/forum/fox-news-spreading-toxic-rumors/#comment-95103
Isn't that just as problematical as Republican/Libertarian group think?
Here is an example of the left trying to understand the right (even as we must move beyond both left and right, which just divides us so we can be conquered): http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/10/14/what-the-gop-must-do-finding-common-ground-with-the-occupiers/#comment-134363
The key is to have civil arguments: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sandel_the_lost_art_of_democratic_debate.html
And: http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/researcher-responds-to-arguments-over-his-theory-of-arguing/ "The main idea of the “argumentative theory of reasoning,” put forward by Dan Sperber and myself is that the function of human reasoning — why it evolved — is to improve communication by allowing people to debate with each other: to produce and evaluate arguments during a discussion. This contrasts with the standard view of reasoning — apparently shared by quite a few of the readers — that reasoning evolved in order to further individual reasoning: to make better decisions, to plan ahead, to get better beliefs, etc. We have gathered a lot of evidence in support of our theory."
If OWS was to be about just one thing, restoring civil debate (which is also a form of education) to our social sphere might get us all the rest (including getting money out of politics to the extent that is possible). And that is precisely why partisan interests (Democrat, Republican, whatever) might fight against civil debates -- as shown in the format of past TV debates where dissenting voices are shut out.
And that kind of discussion can start here on OWS, though it would help to have better tools. People on OWS could write them. Look into IBIS (and the related Cohere and Compendium) for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issue-Based_Information_System
http://cohere.open.ac.uk/
http://compendium.open.ac.uk/
I'd love to see a serious multi-day detailed debate moving beyond sound bites (archived in detail with debate flows on a website) between past presidential candidates Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, and Cynthia McKinney about different visions of the future for the USA, from each of their different points of view, with detailed fact checking by the audience, and so on. And why not Sarah Palin, Barack Obama, and a couple others representing mainstream views (or their staff). And people like Bob Black. Now, that would be an amazing discussion, especially if it was all put on the internet in an IBIS system live with annotated comments... We need a system where these views respond to each others points and work out some synthesis, or at least show where core values differ and people need to make a choice as to what sort of society they want to live in.
But, in the absence of that, citizens can try to do that in an adhoc way among ourselves -- but only if we move beyond partisanship and truly want to learn from what others have to say.
I believe engaging these people in an intellectual manner is a good thing. Using gathered and researched statistics, examples from the media, and the like,
Note, I say intellectually. If these people are confronted with hostility, profanities, and so on then you are not helping the cause.
The trolls have already hijacked this forum for the past month, but they havn't hijacked the real life movement itself. The corporations are sponsoring a whole army of attackers, there should be some janitors like what they have on 4chan.
Any american that doesn't understand this movement is as out of touch with reality as the politicians that run this country are. If they can't see what is going on the are either blind or brainwashed. You can't be reasonable with them it's like a dog barking at a wall for hours. Pointless.
Quote: "They won't tire of it because they like to argue pointlessly for hours"
I think some of them are paid political operatives from Libertarian groups (Koch Bros are staunch Libertarians). Their job is to come on sites like this to promote their political candidates. So they are not arguing pointlessly; they are arguing to get paid.
You've heard of course of Newt Gingrich's paid twitter followers. It's the new political advertising. Deceptive? Disruptive? I'll let you be the judge of that. Best thing is not to debate them.
I think it's dangerous to assume someone who respectfully disagrees with you is a paid operative of some shady corporate interest.
I, for example, am supportive of Ron Paul. I think ending the Federal Reserve is one of the most important goals to fix our problems because it's a bottomless piggy bank for the banksters (and a mosterous private bank itself). I also think minimizing the federal government and delegating those powers to the states makes it harder for the power elite to control the country. If you let states dictate what is right for them, then you can influence your state officials more effectively than a federal official. And it takes away a single point of authority, which is very easy for the power elite of the 1% to manipulate. With a small federal government and a strong state government, you have more influence on the laws that govern your life, and you can simply move to a state that fits your better if your state makes decisions you disagree with.
Our problems come from a government that interferes with the free market in an asinine way, giving special treatment to their Big Business buddies. A fair playing field without ludicrous manipulations and sweetheart deals is real capitalism. We haven't had that in this country for a long time.
"#OWS is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process"
This is a quote from the News page on Oct 16. I think this is the Organizers way of gently prodding this along. The organizers cannot tell people what to fight for. Its up to us. Trolls will always be trolls. But we can't stoop to their level. We cannot compromise free speech because of them. No matter how annoying and obnoxious they are.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve the forum. But we need to be VERY careful about it.
We need patience and persistance.
I like your pig analogy! I try to stay out of the mud!
I really agree with you. But I wish you could present a list of specific demands that would lead to a better world. I worry that, by not doing so, the movement will not have a sustainable impact long-term. What about a 10 or 12 point plan that everyone in the movement could support? Here's just one possibility: no politician could accept campaign contributions or spend his or her own money on a political campaign. The punishment for doing so would be a long prison sentence. That would stop rich people from funding their own campaigns and would stop politicians from selling people out to corporate interests.
I like your one possibility. A lot. There are potential issues with it, freedom of speech being one (does freedom of speech protect you if you want to spend your own money on your own political campaign?) but if the will is there, we can make it happen.
I don't agree that a list of demands is necessary though, not yet. Who would they be presented to - the media? In that case we're really presenting them to ourselves (the 99%), those of us who aren't already a part of the movement, and a list of demands just has the potential to alienate people, especially after the media twists it. This movement is still in the process of growing, and it's doing so worldwide. For now it's about what's happened to us: our disenfranchisement, our lack of a real say in our own lives, and economic injustice. Let it keep growing first. Give people time to educate themselves about what's going on. Everyone has been asleep, so it will take some time. Unless people suddenly get some more money, they will not be pacified.
I have a lot of experience moderating forums and one thing which made my work a LOT easier was the ability for normal users to flag problematic posts that required moderator attention. We should do that here.
Besides, it would give more power to the people and that's what we're all about, right?
Understand you're trying to help but, How do you prevent the trolls from flagging the "normal" users?
You don't have to given that all the system does is notify the moderation staff that someone thinks they ought to pay attention to something. If a post is flagged in error or in malice the staff just ignores the alert.
The absolute worst that could happen is that every single post would get flagged which would just mean that the moderators would have to sift through posts the old-fashioned way. If you keep a record of who flagged the post then you could just ban the troublemaker who did it and have all the flags revert anyway. Or better: program the computer to automatically discard their notifications and let them waste their time mashing buttons (cue evil laugh).
Honestly, trolls don't really like abusing systems that have no visible effect and don't illicit a reaction anyway. That and it lowers the incentive to respond to the troll because it opens up other avenues for normal users to deal with them.
Got it. Thats why you're the system person and I'm not! Sounds like it could work.
Cue evil laugh - lol
I just thought of something! In addition to having the ability for normal users to bring a post to the attention of moderation staff by flagging it it would be awesome if moderators could flag posts they already read as safe that way moderators don't end up duplicating each others work!
Both great ideas! Thanks for sharing. I hope the moderators are reading.
I agree. The 'Occupy wall street' concept is gaining a lot of momentum!
Its the first hit when you google 'occupy wall street', it comes bfore the NYtimes website or any other international media website reporthing this.
You guys need a sense of direction... the world is starting to look at you. At the moment its just random people having their 15 minutes of fame. At the expense of the cause
ive seen so much of it it seems almost plausible there are paid goons but as i always say...never underestimate the stupidity of human beings...stay the course we need good people HOPE Humans On Planet Earth...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QrDLwSgg24
We should ignore the trolls.
But its tempting.
a dramatic song no one is require to listen to
David Bowie - Cygnet Committee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKMSgZo9c8s
good night
you are free to not partake. that is freedom. if you would like, i have a list of ows support resources in the right hand column of my blog, the rest is just my blather. no paid advertising. http://blog.richardkentgates.com
Take away freedom of speech and you are no better than them. Without freedom of speech this very protest would have no legs to stand on. Its funny to me how people cry about their right being violated but try to take away the rights of others. I agree about the douches on this site, no I will not use the troll slang that all of you throw around as if you are some how better or your point is somehow more valid. You dont like them well neither do i so educate yourself and shut them up by educating them with logic and reason. The sheeple will never see eye to eye with the independent thinkers. But have you been to the protests? Unfortunately I have seen just as many "douche bags" there. We must educate them with cohesion. Admin and Anon I have said it to both of you I am definitely not proposing a central leadership but if we cant at least narrow and focus our message than this in fighting will be standard practice with occupy across the nation. Right now as I see it there are so many people mad at so many different things and have so many different ideas on how to solve them no one seems to see eye to eye. If you cant focus them you will loose them chaos rarely leads to order...... Respectfully yous.
Yea, there's a lot of room for improvement.
Monitor comments and don't let Trolls post.
The movement has no established goals so how can anyone's opinion be irrelevant? If you don't like to debate, defend, and hone your positions I'd suggest getting off of the internet and curling up with a good book. Some of the ideas I see here are good ones. Some are downright silly. Am I not allowed to state that the silly ones are in fact silly?
read the declaration:
http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/
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