Forum Post: To people who want to let the black bloc act out in our name
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 4, 2011, 12:20 p.m. EST by ARod1993
(2420)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
First off, not keeping its nuts in line is the goddamn problem with the right; moderates in America typically outnumber extremists by a lot and if you let the extremists run the show you drive off the moderates. The only time letting extremists run things doesn't immediately carry a penalty in popular support (assuming you're not a Republican) is when nonviolence is for whatever reason categorically impossible. Nonviolence is quite possible right now, and we just got away with a major nonviolent protest in Oakland. Even better would be throwing Occupiers into HoR primaries over the course of this next election so that we can make a greater impact on what's going on on Capitol Hill.
The problem we have with black bloc is not a matter of squeamishness; it's a matter of not getting ourselves attacked and tear gassed (or getting so much popular support when we do that it becomes a Pyrrhic victory for the LEOs). The role and the goal of OWS is to spread awareness of the continuing growth in income inequality and the continuing atrophy of many sectors of our economy due to corporate profit-chasing, and to mobilize voters to work to combat these problems. If we're running around spraypainting things dressed all in black we become scary to the majority of the people and an easy caricature for any who disagree with us, and we thus lose our ability to influence the national dialogue or get voters to listen to us.
You're right that in cases like India and South Africa nonviolence was only part of the equation and acts of vandalism and violence were a major part of the decision to change things. That only worked because you were talking about a military occupation in which popular support or lack thereof was pretty much either going to be there or not be there and the movements had no risk of losing momentum because of such actions. Prove to me that violence and vandalism are more expedient than nonviolence and political activity in this particular situation and then I'll consider listening to you.
Incidentally, vandalism my not be violence per se but it's a big damn mess to clean up. Cleaning up this mess is probably going to fall on the same minimum wage janitor whose rights and income we're here to protect. See a problem there? Besides, it gives the cops and others a great excuse to point to us as a threat to law and in turn has very little impact on what we do. To recap: violence is unnecessary and generally a very bad idea, and vandalism is free PR for our opponents.
If your going to allow people to hide behind masks expect agent provocateurs to infiltrate and cause trouble.
I have no problem with people wearing masks, but if they get violent or out of hand they need to be forcibly unmasked, photographed, and handed over to the cops, and the photo needs to go in a publicly viewable database of agents provocateurs.
hear, hear.
Its easier to just ask people politely to not wear them. Believe me it ends whatever plan they might have had to stir up a shit storm so their brothers the security goons and brownshirts can crush your event.
That would be a good idea too, and then people who don't listen should be watched during marches and dealt with appropriately should they act out.
Your right, if they decide not to comply that usually is an indication that they need to hide for some reason and its a red flag.
Of course. It couldn't possibly be those silly black bloc asshats that show up at every protest and destroy shit, it just had to be "the man" and his dastardly "infiltrators".
LOL
I don't give a damn whether they're police-sponsored troublemakers or our troublemakers; if they get violent or out of hand they need to be forcibly unmasked, photographed, and handed over to the cops, and the photo needs to go in a publicly viewable database of troublemakers banned from marching with us. Either way it should work, and forcible unmasking by angry men will probably include enough of a beating that neither anarchists nor police infiltrators will be particularly enthused about causing trouble at marches again.
This is a good idea, but get ready for a street brawl, because those black bloc asshats are not going like be unmasked.
Like I said, I don't care. When people see us either on top of, laying into, or dragging away provocateurs and vandals it will be quite clear to them that OWS does not believe in open lawlessness and that will go a long way with the ordinary guy who doesn't care much about these things. If they're black bloc then let it be a lesson to them. If it's cops, then maybe when the officers come in the next morning looking like they lost a fight with Mike Tyson the station chief will think twice about sending them out there to riot.
lol
I love the last sentence and agree with you. Unmask the asshats and you will gain more support from "mainstreet".
From my 45 yr. experience with this crap, it usually is "the man eta al."
smh
You can deny it all you want, but that stark reality is that those black bloc asshats show up at every protest because they love rioting for riotings sake. They are not "infiltrators" planted by "the man".
This is one of those lovely times where it really doesn't matter either way. Like I said, I don't care. When people see us either on top of, laying into, or dragging away provocateurs and vandals it will be quite clear to them that OWS does not believe in open lawlessness and that will go a long way with the ordinary guy who doesn't follow us too carefully. If they're black bloc then their first taste of actual violence against them will probably cause them to reconsider their approach. If it's cops, then maybe when the officers come in the next morning looking like they lost a fight with Mike Tyson the station chief will think twice about sending them out there to riot.
How do u know who the f*ck they are? You don't. I guarantee you that half or more of them are just that.
How do you propose to "guarantee" that?
Conspriacy theories about "infiltrators", so not proof.
OWS is all-inclusive.
To what end, though? Obviously if we're too small, too tight-knit, and too unresponsive to the needs of the American people then people either forget about us or (if we hold actual power) resent us; this is why Congress's ratings are in the tank right now. However, if we let groups like black blocs in then they should have to conform to certain basic policies of the overall movement, which include no vandalism and no unprovoked violence. Otherwise we'll get marginalized for being crazy leftists and we'll be really screwed.