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Forum Post: Three choices:

Posted 6 years ago on Nov. 22, 2012, 10:59 a.m. EST by mideast (506)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

  1. Ignore the truth in the videos below and pretend that you know the truth
  2. Learn the truth in the videos below
  3. Study the truth in the videos below and try to prove it wrong with real evidence

and – no! – proving Israel has done bad things [ which it has ] does not DISPROVE these truths



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[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

Amy Goodman on Gaza - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 & thanks for all your efforts at one-sided propaganda and prejudice here :)

Also - "Jimmy Carter : 'Israelis' Policy Is to Confiscate Palestinian Territory'", by Elisabeth Braw : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elisabeth-braw/jimmy-carter-israelis-pol_b_2144182.html from - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ .

Solidarity to the 99%, wherever they may be!

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

Did you actually WATCH any of the videos? ANY?
What is the honest answer to this question>
How much of Gaza is occupied by how many Israelis?

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

It seems that you wish to completely ignore the realities of OCCUPATION and I shall play you at your own game with people of integrity NOT half-baked lunatic propaganda. So, after Amy Goodman, I offer you Noam Chomsky - http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison , taken from the recent post - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ . Reading is the key NOT 'Watching' biased propaganda, so go get a clue and give thanks for the ceasefire on this of all days.

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

stating anti-Israeli opinions of Chomsky & Carter & Goodman does not dispute historical facts.
Which of the videos' facts are you attempting to disprove?
Can you do your homework and prove them wrong?
Or do you find this an impossible task?

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

So where to begin? How about - "We are forbidden to say this - Gaza is a Concentration Camp", by Arthur Silber : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33077.htm - culled from the very thought provoking post and thread - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ .

There are many excellent links there from real scholars not your nonsense from the lunatic fringes. Are you like that DKAtoday character? Do you also believe that all people from a Jewish background must return to Israel before you can be beamed up to heaven?

Much of the so called 'facts' of our 'history' are disputed and clearly you would not really know 'biased propaganda' if it bit you on the ass! You keep replying and I'll look in from time to time cos the kids have teamed up to prepare a fine lunch here with me only advising and peering over the laptop screen, so I have time and energy for this today.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33770) from Coon Rapids, MN 6 years ago

That comment was uncalled for. I have been and will always advocate for peace and prosperity and Health FOR ALL. It is you who seem to be prejudiced and bigoted and completely one sided .

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

Thanks for that reply. Ever heard of 'projection'? Did you or did you not embed this link from this source http://contenderministries.org/middleeast/timeline.php ? When I asked you about it, did you reply? Am I wrong? If so, I'll do what manners and honour require, as to 'assume' often can make an 'ass' of 'u & me'!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33770) from Coon Rapids, MN 6 years ago

Ummmm your problem is with historical records that are tied to the recordings of a religion?


Well then you must have a problem with all of world history - as religious records are some of the very earliest and most meticulous records kept. It is where most of the recorded history of the world comes from - prior to separation of church and state. So I take it you have a problem with Muslim historical accounts and Buddhist historical accounts etc etc etc etc It is not an (x)umption when your comments regarding an issue are all one sided - my comments have not been one sided - so that leaves you.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

Oh dear, oh dear! ALL religions are a bunch of myths, legends and propaganda used to justify some pretty incredible things! I respect all religions but I do NOT consider ANY of them to have any exclusive claims to historical veracity let alone any Universal Spiritual Truth! That's just so absurd, I had to laugh out loud here and explain to the kids why I did! I just asked you three simple questions and was (and am) willing to express contrition if I was wrong in my presumptions. So, your refusal or inability to answer tends me to think I was right about you.

Here's an interesting perspective on history - "Operation Short Memory - Uri Avnery", by Gush Shalom : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33052.htm ' again taken from the thread on this post - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ - though I'm beginning to get the feeling that some of you guys never actually open these links. Your problem is that people like me DO open the links you send. Hey-ho, lunch is ready here, so don't take things too personally and have a good Thanksgiving.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33770) from Coon Rapids, MN 6 years ago

I do not respect any religion - as religion is man made and man manipulated for those who are in the power structure.

I have some respect for some teachings of religion and that respect is not given to any single religion - I respect the teachings of fellowship and acceptance of others and that all here are equal. I respect the teachings of Love for one and all.

That being said - you find a history of the world that does not include information from various religions.

You are too self satisfied and claim a victory where you have none.

May you and your family share a blessed thanks giving in health peace prosperity love - and of personal enlightenment.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

Lets All Enlighten Up! Perhaps I ought to have said 'I respect all religious traditions' and I very much agree that - 'religion is man made and man manipulated for those who are in the power structure.' & I concur with your second paragraph totally but that may make me too 'self satisfied' for your taste and indeed my enjoying the day my kin does tend to being satisfied and perhaps overly so. Finally here's a link to what OWS said about Gaza - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/#comment-879721 - but then for some reason 'pulled' the whole news-article. Peace to you & yours.

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

A4C - are you afraid to watch ANY of the videos?
Do YOU are reply to even one? specifically
"The GAZA occupation? How many square miles of Gaza are occupied by Israeli troops?

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

I'm not afraid to watch your propaganda and indeed did watch some before you removed all the links from your post. You do realise that such films are hateful propaganda don't you? What if someone put similar antisemitic video links up? There would be justifiable outrage, no? Of course speaking up for Palestinians is considered so beyond the pale that anything implying that they may have a case is outrageous to most MSM fed Americans.

Gaza, for your information is all but 'occupied' in name only. When the people there can arbitrarily be killed, their infrastructure destroyed on a whim, their leadership assassinated etc. then perhaps you may prefer the word 'blockade', but it amounts to much the same thing. Peace and justice is what's needed but all your links promote are fear and hate.

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

'm not afraid to watch your propaganda and indeed did watch some before you removed all the links from your post. none of the links have been removed You do realise that such films are hateful propaganda don't you? What if someone put similar antisemitic video links up? I am not being "hateful". I posted what I believe is the truth. If the posts are factuall WRONG - I WANT TO KNOW Of course speaking up for Palestinians is considered so beyond the pale that anything implying that they may have a case is outrageous to most MSM fed Americans. I speak up for Palestinians who want peace - but not the terrorist hamas. It is very sad that the PLO did not take the deal that so many Arab leaders wanted them to take. Gaza, for your information is all but 'occupied' in name only. Occupied is a defined term that is PROPAGANDA when it is used as part of a lie you may prefer the word 'blockade', but it amounts to much the same thing. What - specifically - is being blockaded? what is being kept out of Gaza?
Peace and justice is what's needed but all your links promoted was fear and hate.
AGAIN- what did you find in the clips that is FALSE ?
If any of the links fail, let me know & I will fix them for you

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

What a rancid and hysterical response & the desperate, strident and vituperative propaganda is clear.

A useful link on Gaza for you - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 and as Amy Goodman says - 'The answer is simple, and increases the chances of security on all sides: End the occupation.' Read it and reflect urgently.

Your desperate propaganda does remain below but they were with the main post before, were't they? - and that was what I meant by 'removed'. You know these videos and their tone and you are being both 'hateful' and shouty too! If you 'believe' these crap videos are 'the truth' or 'are factual', then you really are prejudiced and propagandised. What would you think if such crap was pushed about Jews & Judaism?

No, you do NOT 'speak up for Palestinians' at all or in any way whatsoever, so you are a liar to even try to say that. You do however scream hysterically (a case in point is your comment above!) for the Israeli side, as all here can clearly see for themselves. Hamas is The Elected Leadership of the Palestinians in Gaza - so dealing with it by NOT dealing with it, is NOT dealing with it, get it?!

Terror is as terror does, so do NOT think for one moment that the latest Israeli violence (I'll bet you have forgotten 2008's 'Operation Cast Lead' already, right?) is anything other than 'Terrifying and Terrorising' to hundreds of thousands of people confined to a ghetto! Have you any grasp or knowledge of history at all? Do the words 'Warsaw' or 'The Haganah' or 'The Irgun' have any meaning for you? If you have no idea what I'm referring to, then go get a clue, asap!

Your links ALL fail, as do you and you really need to 'fix' yourself by opening your firmly closed mind - so good luck with that.

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

first rule of how to be a good liar-
don't tell an easily disprovable lie
"Your links ALL fail"
Your Amy Goodman piece does not address any of the clips -

AGAIN- is there ANYTHING in these dozen clips that is not true?
[ I suspect there is - but you could find it if you watched ]

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

What a truly revealing reply! When I said that 'your links ALL fail', I clearly meant that figuratively, as I had already said that I opened some of your links to see the despicable bigotry for what it was. I did not mean that your links were duds, I meant that they all failed from the point of view of rhyme and reason - as do you! Your hasty knee-jerk reaction and jumping to your own ill thought out conclusions, are only more of the same expressions of your own, real inner nature.

When you say - 'first rule of how to be a good liar- don't tell an easily disprovable lie' - what you are really speaking to is your own mind and methodology as you are projecting your own mind and method!

Your links below are examples of a biased, bigoted, hate speech which would rightly be excoriated and deleted IF it was such propagandist crap were said about Jews and Judaism. I could find crap like this to attach to Jews and Judaism if I tried but if I did do so, what would that make me?

You are a disgrace to this forum and your weasel words saying of the clips - 'THEY ARE NOT MINE', are actually further real insights into what passes for your brain. You have added more clips to your b.s. post below and your agenda is clear for all here to see. You are actually a prejudiced bigot and your sly whispering invitations to hate and ignorance, are an insult to this forum.

Again - Your links ALL fail, as do you and you really need to 'fix' yourself by opening your firmly closed mind - so good luck with that.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

'Where’s Our Humanity For Gaza?' by Sara Roy -

http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+imeu+%28IMEU+%3A+Institute+for+Middle+East+Understanding%29 .

"Boston Globe" -November 23, 2012 - - Between February 2009 — just after the Operation Cast Lead onslaught — and August 2012, Israeli attacks in Gaza, averaging six per week. They came by aircraft, helicopter gunships, drones, and tanks throughout Gaza; the confiscation of, or damage to, fishing boats and the detention and arrest of fishermen; attacks on industrial, farm, and food production facilities; and military ground incursions.

The current crisis is framed in terms devoid of any real context. The issue goes far beyond which side precipitated the terrible violence that has killed innocents on both sides. The issue — largely forgotten — is one of continued occupation and blockade, a grossly asymmetrical conflict that has deliberately and systematically disabled Gaza’s economy and people.

The Gaza Strip is now in its 46th year of occupation, 22nd year of closure, and sixth year of intensified closure. The resulting normalization of the occupation assumes a dangerous form in the Gaza Strip, whose status as an occupied territory has ceased to matter in the West; the attention has shifted — after Hamas’s 2006 electoral victory and 2007 takeover of the territory — to Gaza’s containment and punishment, rendering illegitimate any notion of human rights or freedom for Palestinians.

The Israeli government has referred to its siege policy as a form of “economic warfare.” In a Nov. 2008 cable from the US embassy in Tel Aviv released by WikiLeaks, US officials wrote, “As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed . . . on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge” with the aim of having Gaza’s economy “functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.” This was achieved through an Israeli-imposed blockade that ended all normal trade.

The result has been high and persistent unemployment, which stood near 30 percent by June 2012, according to the International Monetary Fund. Approximately 39 percent of Gaza’s people lived below the poverty line in 2011. The figure would be far greater without donor aid.

Gaza’s economic decline is seen in the near collapse of its agricultural sector. One factor is the destruction of around 7,800 acres of agricultural land during Cast Lead. Consequently, approximately one-third of Gaza’s total arable land is out of production. Furthermore, Israeli-imposed buffer zones — areas of restricted access — now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza’s total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land.

Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three, where waters are fouled by sewage flows in excess of 23 million gallons daily.

Another critical constraint is water. Gaza’s aquifer has been ruined by prolonged over-pumping and sewage and contaminant infiltration.

Almost all of Gaza’s municipal wells used for drinking water are seriously polluted. Due to the breakdown of Gaza’s sanitation infrastructure, particularly after 2008, this infiltration has led to elevated levels of nitrates and chlorides in the groundwater and soil — far above World Health Organization safety levels — posing a dangerous health risk to humans and livestock.

Israel’s blockade policy restricts the entry of materials needed to repair, maintain, and upgrade Gaza’s sewage and wastewater treatment infrastructure. Save the Children reported in 2011 that Israeli airstrikes destroyed water and sanitation infrastructure valued at $1.3 million.

The impact on health is clear: Just under 10 percent of Gazan children under five suffered from chronic malnutrition in 2010. According to Save the Children, “Diseases of poverty and conflict combined with a degenerating health care system are claiming growing numbers of Gaza’s children.”

Birth defects, congenital anomalies, and cancer cases are reportedly rising. This is likely due to environmental contamination, including the possible use of toxic weaponry during Cast Lead. The current military assault will undoubtedly worsen environmental conditions.

Yet the US government will probably cut funding to the Palestinians if they pursue United Nations observer membership.

Political differences aside, where is our humanity?

(Sara Roy is senior research scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University and author of “Hamas and Civil Society in Gaza: Engaging the Islamist Social Sector.”)

© 2012 The New York Times Company

Read the above and try to learn and note the sources. You open your post, saying - 'Ignore the truth', 'Learn the truth' & 'Study the truth' - but honestly - what do you think that you know of 'the truth'?

From what I have seen, your posts and comments on this forum are a disgrace and are only here to promote prejudice, bigotry and hate and designed to malign a whole group of people in your desperate attempts to propagandise for another.

You are a prejudiced bigot and your whispering invitation to hatemongering is an insult to this forum and you are exposed by your own words, actions and thoughts. Your desperate attempts at dehumanising and defaming Palestinians is a disgrace which we would rightly not stand for if it were to be directed at Judaism and Jewish people.

Shame on you.

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 6 years ago

"The Gaza Strip is now in its 46th year of occupation" is occupied by Hamas.
I do not believe there is a single Israeli soldier in Gaza
I may be wrong
Of course id you define "Gaza is occupied" to be equal to "Gaza is north of Egypt" then you are telling the truth

I know historical truth can be inconvenient, but here are a few more sources

And again – clips about the poor conditions in Gaza or military actions by Israel do not disprove Arafat’s statements or thousands of attacks on Israeli civilians by bus bombs or rockets. There MUST be at least one or two errors in the hundreds of historical facts posted here. I do not hate Arabs or Palestinians – but we cannot hope to solve the middle east problem unless we understand what these people believe. I believe that paying a parent to send their child to kill people [ as in Mumbai ] is nothing less than inhuman.
Not the bomber, not the parents, but the paymaster.
Maybe you disagree? And numbers are numbers-
Since 1948, Israel has killed 35,000 Arabs/Muslims Since 1948, Arabs/Muslims have killed 11,000,000 Arabs/Muslims





While it is true that Israel did occupy Gaza in the past - the occupation of the Gaza Strip by Egypt occurred between 1948 and October 1956 and again from March 1957 to June 1967.

And again - WHY would Israel want ANYTHING in Gaza - other than peace?

Here is my solution -
every Arab oil "power" contributes a million dollars of FOOD every day to Israel for Israel to deliver to Gaza - AND Israel also contribtes to the food bank.

[-] 3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 6 years ago

Gaza is still occupied by Israel. Israel controls all water, power, and food in Gaza, and prevents Gazans from entering or exiting. Israel invades periodically at will, and assassinates Gazans remotely between invasions. All of those things means that Israel effectively continues to occupy Gaza, which harms Israel's credibility on issues of morality.

Israel has committed nearly every atrocity that the Nazis ever inflicted on Jews, short of a "final solution" to the "Palestininan problem". When Israelis say "never again", what they actually mean is "never again -- to US". To other people, not really a problem... Giving people justification to draw similarities between Nazis herding Jews into ghettoes is one of many reasons why the continued occupation of Gaza is counter productive for Israel.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3340) 6 years ago

Your racist spamming is a disgrace! I agree with TechJunkie's comment here and shame on you!! Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, are OCCUPIED and like OWS - They'll Never Give Up Either!!!