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Forum Post: Thomas Paine on Accepting the Status Quo

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 3, 2012, 12:29 p.m. EST by Krypton (73)
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"Though I would carefully avoid giving unnecessary offence, yet I am inclined to believe, that all those who espouse the doctrine of reconciliation, may be included within the following descriptions. Interested men, who are not to be trusted, weak men who CANNOT see, prejudiced men who will not see, and a certain set of moderate men who think better of the European world than it deserves; and this last class, by an ill-judged deliberation, will be the cause of more calamities to this Continent than all the other three."

"Men of passive tempers look somewhat lightly over the offences of Great Britain, and, still hoping for the best, are apt to call out, "Come, come, we shall be friends again for all this." But examine the passions and feelings of mankind: bring the doctrine of reconciliation to the touchstone of nature, and then tell me whether you can hereafter love, honour, and faithfully serve the power that hath carried fire and sword into your land? If you cannot do all these, then are you only deceiving yourselves, and by your delay bringing ruin upon posterity. Your future connection with Britain, whom you can neither love nor honour, will be forced and unnatural, and being formed only on the plan of present convenience, will in a little time fall into a relapse more wretched than the first. But if you say, you can still pass the violations over, then I ask, hath your house been burnt? Hath your property been destroyed before your face? Are your wife and children destitute of a bed to lie on, or bread to live on? Have you lost a parent or a child by their hands, and yourself the ruined and wretched survivor? If you have not, then are you not a judge of those who have. But if you have, and can still shake hands with the murderers, then are you unworthy the name of husband, father, friend or lover, and whatever may be your rank or title in life, you have the heart of a coward, and the spirit of a sycophant."




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[-] 2 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

It's been said many times before, but arguing by partisanship is missing the point. We are at the end of compromise. Fascism, aristocracy, oligarchy, corporatocracy, capitalism, whatever you call the system of beliefs corrupting our republican democracy; there is wrong and there is right; there is looking out for number one and there's looking out for humanity as a whole; the powers that be, across the board, have either blatantly adopted the former of each duality as principle, or acted upon the former while speaking to the latter. While there may be small pockets of enlightened, benevolent legislators, the system in which they subsist has turned into a harem of avarice.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

To put this in today's context, merely substitute corporations and their minions, for the references to Europe.

[-] 0 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

Exactly. Their minions being very much the federal Government. Has America finally come full circle?

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago


Look no further than than the Kochs, the Dimon's and others of their ilk.

Wallstreet, in it's entirety. Those that subjugate law for their own profit, regardless of it's effects on others.

It's government that is infected. It's not the infection.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13023) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

It's government is infected. It's not the infection.



[-] 0 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

When the government is comprised of those who are not just weak and impressionable to the coaxing of corporate power, but active believers in the same principles held by said corporate power, the government, which is an increasingly fluid idea embodied by its electees, becomes the infection. The Constitution is not wrong, but its handlers are.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13023) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

it is still an infection - akin to a cancer, one that may yet prove lethal to the body, but is not the body itself.

[-] 0 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

No. That's true. I may have misspoke. Instead of "system", I suppose I should have said "mindset" or "overriding ideology". If you're saying that a government should not be judged by its actions, only the governors, I agree.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

Not clear, not precise and not succinct.

Also incorrect.

If you do not deal with the cause of the infection, nothing will change, and it will appear as you have stated, but be aware that that is just an appearance. Not the fact.

[-] -1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

Well then I'm not sure what the difference is, by what you're saying. What is the cause of the infection? Human fallibility? Mass miseducation? Am I incorrect for being too broad, or general, with my statements? Is the Tea Party mentality not as big a problem as I feel it is, either in severity or infectiousness? Do you think that uber-conservatives are actually rational people who are just suffering from temporary insanity? Should I be seeking their reform, rather than their banishment?

[-] 0 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

The drive for profit, over all other considerations, is the infection..

[-] -1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

I think I understand, and if I do, that would seem to be a nation-wide problem (no pun intended), not just a malady of those in economic/governmental power. So, it's not just about changing the culture of Washington, but the entire country (/world)? I've been operating under the mindset that, at the very least, denizens of Wall Street were an impenetrable cabal. I suppose y'all have had this discussion many times before. The struggle seems to be even bigger than I've thought.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

the manager controls a workers life more than the government

[-] 1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

Perhaps. The manager's life is controlled by their boss, and so on and so on, and influence can be traced back to government policy. Shit floweth downhill.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

the manager reports to the company executive

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

That was cryptic.

You should work on clarity. It helps make your point understandable.

[-] 0 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

Translation: I'm thinking that, by "drive for profit", you mean that American culture in general is materialistic, or greedy, and is "the infection", AND SO... the problem is not just in the government, but in the culture.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

As long as you admit that that is your belief, not mine.

The government is infected by those who purchase it for their own ends.

That was the point, since you have managed to drag this away from that simple, irrefutable truth.

[-] 1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

I'm just trying to understand you, and I believe I do now. Thank you for your patience.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17621) 1 year ago

What is it you believe you understand?

Proper feedback helps to assure accuracy.

I would like to ask, what is it we need to know to understand you?

[-] 1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

I believe that, to you, solving the problem means getting money's influence out of government. I believe that the problem is rooted in the culture. That it'd take some vast overhaul of thinking (on the scale of Beatlemania) to change our path from the materialist/individualist one we've been on since, at least, Reagan. I think that the recession is helping the change along, though.

To understand me? Don't try to. I only started caring about anything outside my own little world, like, a year ago. I'm filled with bluster, but have lots of reading left to do. I'm still torn somewhere between Socialism and Libertarianism, as my fear fluctuates between big government and big business.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I think people of the dessert live by rationing water

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34832) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well ( appropriate ) they do protect their water sources - will truly suck for them as well as for the rest of us as those sources are fracked-up.

[-] 0 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago

But do they share?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

yes, all people need water to live

[-] 1 points by Krypton (73) 1 year ago


[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13023) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

that is an elegant dissertation, one difficult for most to apply among their fellow citizens even when it is clear that conse(R)vative values and policy are and have been so destructive to the nation.

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I think he was a tremendously gifted writer but I find it rather strange that OWS has opted to voice their appeal through the words of the Forefathers; an attempt to manipulate by people who have little interest in either history or philosophical understanding.

But whatever, all in war is fair. And I have locked and loaded with history; so bring it...

What is truly disturbing with all of this devout partisanship, and name calling, is the declination from humanism here.

[-] 2 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 1 year ago

Your words and thinking seem familiar. . . . Hmmm. Say, are you David Brooks?!! You have the same smug fat ratness. A scumbag liar who pretends only he & Man Coulter have principles. Bwa, ha, ha, ha.

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Ok, so you tell me, who is this mystery man, David Brooks? And before you even waste your time and mine answering that, ask your self this: do you think I care who I sound like? I mean is that the impression you get, that I want to sound like everybody else?

I thought it really odd, right from the beginning, that OWS was attempting to frame an appeal through the Fathers, and if you think I didn't examine the psychology of that one, you're wrong.

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 1 year ago

What planet are you from? Psychopathworld?

Our Pentagon's become a woman and babykilling machine raining death and terror from drones. NATO's terrorist armies are rampaging through the middle east. Bankster greed (criminality) has crashed the world economy and they still can't get enough government handouts to feel secure -- when they should be getting jailouts. The crashing economy has left millions jobless & foreclosed out of their homes, causing the suicide rate (sometimes the murder suicide rate as some chose to erase their families before themselves) to veer up.

And you talk about humanism??! You freak.