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Forum Post: This isn't a War on the Rich

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 27, 2012, 12:02 p.m. EST by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

  • According to the NY Times:

  • "the issue here is not about class envy. Rather, it’s a perception that government policies are skewed toward helping the already wealthy and powerful."

  • I would strongly disagree with the NY Times about the word "perception." It is not a perception. It is a reality that the lobbyists and fat cats have skewed the system. Rigged the game.

  • It is one thing to say that America is a land of opportunity -- every person can pull themselves up by their boot straps. That's the illusion.

  • Unfortunately, fewer and fewer people have "boots."

111 Comments

111 Comments


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[-] 9 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

The game is indeed rigged. My 30 years owning a small business gives me a direct perspective. I'm hanging on by my fingernails.

I also realize that unless we are able to vote for something other than, "the lessor evil", the game will remain rigged.

[-] 1 points by Socrate (28) 2 years ago

Canadians are where it's at. Go AdBusters, go Occupy, go Leonard Cohen, go Pamela Anderson, go John Candy, go Bieber!

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

lol. Don't forget the hockey. : )

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

I think there needs to be some sort of "rules of engagement" between Congress and paid lobbyists. Not only should the public know exactly who is representing who, we should also have some level playing field.

For example, lobbyists exist to represent the interests of their clients. But how they go about representing them is where we should be focusing.

I would like greater transparency and guidelines on how they can provide information. Put it in writing. What are their "FINDINGS" and what are their "RECOMMENDATIONS" along with an executive summary in case they want to introduce some 500 page piece of legislation.

If lobbyists exist to inform and suggest. Then the public, news media and even the competition, should be able to see what is going on.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I can't remember where I heard it, but one guy said the answer was to have a $100 maximum that anyone could give to a canidate, and corporations should not be allowed to give anything. That sounds like a winner to me. On a side note, my niece's husband is a partner in one of the most powerful law firms in the country, and he is a lobbyist as well. You cannot imagine the conversations we have, if you want to call them that. I usually end them before things get too heated by telling him what a great father he is.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • Good comments.

  • Corporations are not people. But they are occupied by flesh-and-blood people who already have free speech rights and campaign contribution rights.

  • Making corporations "people" gives the corporations the ability to speak louder than those who don't work for corporations..

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

Billionaire businessman Warren Buffet said on CNBC over a year ago: “There's CLASS WARFARE, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.”

On CNN, he later stated : "Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won. We’re the ones that have gotten our tax rates reduced dramatically. If you look at the 400 highest taxpayers in the United States in 1992, the first year for figures, they averaged about $40 million of [income] per person. In the most recent year, they were $227 million per person — five for one. During that period, their taxes went down from 29 percent to 21 percent of income. So, if there’s class warfare, the rich class has won."

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

he said also, "we're not only winning, we're killing them." it's that latter part that is often omitted.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

I don't believe that the 1% can declare victory over the rest of us as long as we can speak out, sit in, act up, and create disharmony and a disturbance "within the force."

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Except that secretary of his makes about $250,000 per year and owns at least two houses....and its his choice to pay her in wages instead of in stock where she could use the lesser 15% capital gains tax....as he has chosen to pay himself.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 2 years ago

We need a way to fix this two-party, one-party fiasco, and do it before it's too late. That is the question we are grappling with. Somehow we must find a plan around which we can form consensus.

I think this would be the best use of this forum. We must dialogue in order to find a plan that we, and I don't mean the trolls, but tha WE can agree on.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

well put, voting for the lesser evil--ha!:):) completely rigged... everyone know it's corrupt and rigged, and yet nobody does anything about it--not even OWS that rejected the declaration. the government is manipulated by lobbyists, and rather than spending its resources investigating and studying what should be done, it is lazy and allows the lobbies to provide manipulative "studies" and "surveys" that inform governmental decision making. it's not bad in theory, except to the extent that it ends up harming the masses. it's just aweful.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Two comments, otherwise I agree with you. One, not everyone knows it's corrupt and rigged. Two, I don't believe it's because of laziness.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

you're right, perhaps the government is not lazy, but it is fed reports, etc... as to the "state of the kingdom" and what needs to be done, and rather than verifying them or thinking critically about their conclusions, it uses them as a perverse kind of citation,,, as if they represent accepted fact, rather than biased opinion. the reports' conclusions are met with blind trust as long as they are matched with campaign assistance or promises of job offers. miraculously, abramoff, recently, said flatly "once you offer a politician a job, you own them." that's how the system works.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

"Once you offer a politician a job, you own them". That's too true. But let us not forget that it is the politician who is ultimately the crook. He is the one who accepts it. Are we now accepting greed on the part of the politicians as acceptable behavior? Evidently we give them a pass.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

alterbolish's comment below is 100% true. change the game. remove fiscal incentives, remove a politician's knowledge of who his donors are, limit contributions not only to candidates, but also to PACs and other straw man financing vehicles ... come on, 1Billion to run for president--and you know exactly who your donors are--you know who owns you?

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Naive. The game is about power. If not money they would find another way. You can't change the morals of politicians by withholding money.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

We can't change their morals, but we can change the politicians. The corrupt are attracted by money and power, change the lure to attract the fair and honest representative.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Power corrupts--even those who might otherwise be moral. Especially those who claim they are not. When you find a foolproof way to attract only the fair and the just, write a book. You will be an instant success. Then watch out for your own corruption.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

not naive, this is a real solution to reduce the undue influence exerted in congress by money and lobbying. these things can be changed, but there's a nefarious reason they're not. abramoff has a book out on the pitfalls, and what can be done... based on a synopsis, it seems to have a good starting point (he just was released from jail, and was one of the biggest culprits).

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

They're not allowed to become a successful politician unless they understand the game and how it's played. That's caused by other forces. The game is played in a way that decries "All men are created equal" because they justify creating advantages for themselves.

It doesn't have to work like this. We the people own this government and should fund and verify elections. This removes the money influence allowing government officials to work full time for the betterment of the country. The key issue is money influence.

"Money is not speech" would be an ideal national debate. .

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

hope you get a chance to see the above.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Greed is not limited to only the rich. Most people (If not all) have their price, one way or another. If it isn't money, it is something else. Evidently we have to live with it.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

They don't think about what needs to be done, they think about the money.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I have owned a small business for 26 years and that is NOT my perspective at all. My perspective is that if the world is changing and you are not - all you have to hang onto IS your fingernails.

Home Depot and Lowes bother entered the market in hour town about the same time. Everyone was decrying the probably loss of our local lumber yards and hardware stores because they just could NOT complete with the big box guys. Their sympathy was totally wasted, not one of those businesses failed. Each found their changed place in the market, made the change and are now successful - one concentrates in the manufacture of building trusses, one sells primarily large lots to contractors, one is a speciality yard carrying items not available or available in quantity from either HD or LO's. As for hardware stores, we just got a new Ace here and one ten miles down the road.

The game is just as rigged as the rules are unchangeable.

By the way, we have two Super WalMarts and rumor of another on the way within two years. Don't see many emply retail stores in town. As a matter of fact, after the first WM we got a new mall, update of the first one, and as a small businessman, I have no complaints.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

I'm happy that you were able to find your "changed place in the market". My experience is that the large companies are continuing to gain unfair advantages in every aspect of business.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

In my opinion that is because we have become a week middle class and that weakness is the very reason that we are disappearing. Our greatest danger if from within ourselves - not some big ogre out there.

I think that there are a lot of things that need to be addressed in this country but for the most part they are not monetary, redistribution of wealth, etc.

They are moral issues that relate to faireness, equality of the freedom principle, moral responsibility for one's own welfare and life, etc.

Look at the posts herein, what is being advocated in most is control by someone other than those in control under the guise of "let's have no control" If you believe that is possible, you are one of the people with that ring in your nose.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

My experience is with some of the big companies and it's their power, not my weakness, that's my problem. If their power was just because of their size, (i.e. their buying power or their efficiencies), I might be able to adapt and still succeed. Unfortunately, they have succeeded in gaining unfair advantages, making small businesses focus on survival instead of expansion. Small business expansion creates jobs but it isn't happening.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20502) 2 years ago

True. It is more about fixing the system. Both the government and the economic system have been failing the majority of the American people.

[-] 2 points by LSN45 (535) 2 years ago

Well said! The establishment is using their money to "stack the deck" in their favor. Here's my 2 cents:

There are a lot of improvements that need to be made. The list of reforms Americans want to see is long and varied depending on who you talk to. That said, I believe there is one reform that would provide the American people the best chances of seeing other meaningful reforms actually happen - that is REAL, loop-hope free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM! I have seen others on this site calling this the "fulcrum" or pivotal issue. Right now the current legalized bribery, pay-to-play system of campaign donations and paid lobbyists has disenfranchised the American voter. Until this is fixed, any other reform the politicians may try to placate us with (be it a change to healthcare, clamping down predatory school loans, new financial regulations, etc.) will be about as effective as a farmer putting a new roof on his CHICKEN COOP, but still letting the FOX guard it.

We need to go back to the original political currency. Instead of the current system of who can collect the most money from corporations and special interests it should be who has the BEST IDEAS to EFFECTIVELY RUN THE COUNTRY (we don't need "Wealth Redistribution," what we need is "Political Influence Redistribution")!

For the sake of our children and future generations of Americans, we need to take back our democracy from the rich and powerful who are using their vast sums of money to "speak" as if they represent millions of Americans. This "Corporate Personhood" that has crept into our laws is allowing them to manipulating our policies in their favor at the expense of the average American (the recent "Citizens United" Supreme Court ruling is a miscarriage of justice and must be reversed. The $50 or $100 a normal American may give to a political campaign becomes meaningless when corporations or other special interests are handing our millions to buy political access to the decision making process.

For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

I really really strongly agree with everything you've said. Thanks for your comments. Campaign Finance Reform, which somehow in a weird creepy way, John McCain teamed with Senator Russ Feingold and set forth a start -- albeit timid -- at leveling the playing field so American citizens had an equal voice with powerful and elite. Somehow, John McCain's wheels came off his bus. He crossed over to the dark side. Pretty sad for a decorated POW vet.

But I digress. Lets have real campaign finance reform.

Let us end ANIMAL FARM DEMOCRACY where all animals are equal -- but some animals are MORE equal than others.

What are lobbyists telling Congress? Lets have full transparency.

What are lobbyists suggesting or proposing in the way of draft legislation? Lets have full transparency so citizens and news media and interest groups can see which foxes are trying to guard the chicken coop.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

For the most part I agree. But all you have to do is to look around and see that we really are not crying for any of this.

You set up any candidate for any office, who expressed strong moral principles and we as a people will rip them to shreads. All you have to do is to look at the media, listen to the protestors, and you will know why we cannot only produce the evils that you see in today's society.

It will continue this way, in my opinion, until we decide that WE NEED to be the ones to change.

[-] 2 points by LSN45 (535) 2 years ago

You are absolutely right! It amazes me what some people are complaining about. What they don't realize is that many of the problems we are facing today are due to influences that were set into motion years ago. We, the American people, have been asleep at the switch! We let the pandering and "pay to play" creep into our politics. What was once a small sapling next to the house that could have been pulled out by hand is now a huge oak that is threatening to compromise the foundation.

Regardless, spread the word. It may take years but for the sake of our children we cannot let the system continue as it is.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

The problem is massive inequality. For prosperity to endure it needs to be shared Mass production demands mass consumption, but people can’t afford to consume if the wealth an economy generates is concentrated at the top.

A giant suction pump has drawn into a few hands, an increasing portion of currently produced wealth in this country.

As in a poker game where the chips are concentrated in fewer and fewer hands; the other people can stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit runs out, the game stops.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by lgarz (287) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't know why I have to say this, but a "War on the Rich" is not when you raise taxes on them by 5%. "Class Warfare" is when angry mobs start marching unscrupulous aristocrats like the Koch Brothers and Mitt and his Pals, up the steps to a Guilliotine! Even Glenn Beck knows that we're not very far from that.

If the Republicans win the next election and the Economy tanks Again. Rich people won't have to worry about an encampment on Wall Street. They'll have to worry about people with Torches & Pitch Forks hunting them.

May I remind you that the people marching in the streets today are Americans! Today you have the non violent Americans Marching for economic justice. Tomorrow you might have the kind of Americans that will pee on your grave after they shoot you in the head from a mile away. That my friends is "Class Warfare!" that Americans have a real talent for.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Tacoma, WA 2 years ago

The founding father justs never considered what would happen when land ran out. America says everyone afforded life, liberty and property. We're seeing the cracking of that oversight.

[-] 1 points by Opportunity (19) 2 years ago

I agree, the 1% far too often use these tools against the majority: monopolies, superficial barriers to entry for new businesses, and bailouts for their failed business. They shouldn't be surprised when people start rising against them.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

That seems to be the issue. If the 1% -- or at least an unethical portion thereof -- is not treating society fairly then at what point do we rise up. Say "Enough!"??

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago
  • oh i agree with that, im really not that bothered by rich people in general, as usually only rich people can afford to purchase my product or services.

  • Its the government that interferes with the lower income citizens. when they themselves act like fat cats. for example a 30 or 50 dollar speeding fine is plenty tomake a point, but the government wants to make sure the rich pay attention by making it alot more, so they penalize the rest of us.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

Every one should fight for what they belive in. I belive it should be a war on the rich.After all they did start this.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Not all rich. And yes, they did start this by rigging the rules of the game against the little guys. But We should not go after the rich, but after the rules. Level the playing field. Make it really truly possible for people to raise themselves up by their boot straps by making sure that we all have boots!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

May I make a point that the poor were here before the rich.

Now who do you think started it??

[-] 1 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 2 years ago

We hate the rich? Come on. Success is the national religion, and almost everyone is a believer. Americans love winners. But that's just the problem. These guys on Wall Street are not winning – they're cheating.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025#ixzz1khvi3Fni

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • Bravo! We don't begrudge success. And we do believe that every American should have an opportunity to achieve the American Dream -- pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and do well!

  • But OWS people I speak to believe that every American should at least have a pair of boots.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

How utterly absurd! Where does the alleged artistic world think its funding is coming from? How did they get their "donations" and artifacts in the first place? Even the so-called rich are strapped for cash and being swindled! If the 'commoners' no longer support the businesses, or rally behind the corporations that have a hand in all this phony baloney orgiastic pomp and circumstance, then it will crumble just like the Parthenon! So be it!!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

rich are they profiteers of wars

[-] 0 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

It is so sad you've been trained to believe that, by believing it you condemn yourself to a second class life. You will never have more than your masters allow you. You've given whatever potential you have away to your political masters in exchange for scraps. Tragic, yet you'll read this and never understand what you have done.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

I'm curious if you have time to explain your post. If it is not true that the system is corrupt, it would be tragic if you could enlighten us but choose to leave us ignorant.

[-] 0 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

The great crime here is you've been taught to not try. You've been given a thousand reasons why the system won't work for you, how bad it is, how evil. But seriously, where does that leave you? Your progress stops. You now have to work to "fix" the system, you have to march around and be angry at bankers, never your political masters who set you on this path.

You have been taught to see yourself as an altruistic soldier for the truth, what you really are is cannon fodder for the class war. While you are busy being all outraged and giving up your personal progress, the children of the political elite (who have trained you to believe your life is hopeless) are preparing to run your life for you, they certainly aren't out there shitting on cop cars with you and they certainly haven't been told it's hopeless to try to succeed.

You've been manipulated into fighting a war that can only harm you but you don't see it that way. You've become convinced that some vague "change the system" war is going to make a better future for you, it isn't. Your political masters know that an have no intention of allowing you to do anything of the sort, they are quite comfortable with the current system thank you very much.

But they've got you spinning your wheels, marching around, wasting your life...and voting for the Democratic party because it's the lesser of two evils don't cha know.

[-] 3 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

How can you claim that, "the great crime here is you've been taught to not try"? I built a small business into a 7 store chain, and prospered in the eighties and nineties! I will never be taught to not try. I have no "political masters" that I recognize. I will continue to try to change the system.

You're last paragraph assumes that I will vote for the Democratic Party because they are the lessor of two evils. I have already tried that with Obama after voting Republican for over 20 years. I will vote against both Republicans and Democrats unless money is taken out of the political process.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

What is the subject of this very post? Kids educated (indoctrinated) in the last 30 years are not taught the United States is the land of opportunity, they are taught the US is an oppressor, imperialistic, and that capitalism is bad thing. They are not encouraged to participate in our economy, they aren't even taught how to balance a check book.

They are systematically being deprived of a better life by being taught to despise the very thing that could provide it. They think if they "change the system" they'll have all the cool things they have now and a bunch of even better stuff, they can't comprehend when there's change, there is change.

You are playing a fool's game by accepting the government's (Democrats) version of reality, blaming the banks for the crash is like an addict blaming the needle for his addiction. The banks loaned money based on the laws the congress passed. don't you get it? That's why no bankers are going to jail, they broke no laws.

If only you could see what colossal fools your master think you are. The truth is right on front of you but you were told it was the banks fault so you hate the banks and march around demanding change which suits your Democrat masters because it helps destabilize people's trust in our financial system, which make the party with the financial reputation, the Republicans look bad and so more people will vote Democrat. If you think this was the bank's fault, you do indeed have political masters.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

They broke no laws because there are bankster politicians in our government that helped tailor the laws.

Hitler broke none of his laws either when he was gassing people left and right.

When you and your cronies own the house, there are no laws you can break since they are created for you to the expense of the rest of the country.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Ah, it always comes back to government doesn't it. :) I'm glad to see you come around!

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

So you agree the problem is government and the people getting into government then.Great!

So you agree we need to then make it illegal for Banksters and Heads of Corporations to be able to run for political positions in our government.

As you said, government is the problem, and they are running the government right now.

Glad we cleared that up.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Do you think you have more control over the government or the elites currently not in government? Who will you blame for our problems from this point on? The banks or government?

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

As an analogy, you tell me in a similar instance ok?

Our "Government and Military" currently are engaged in a war on terrorism and the ones they are going after, are the terrorists, or potential terrorists who carry out the acts, and those who fund those terrorists.

Now you tell me, should we be going after the terrorists only, are should we only be going after those who fund them, or perhaps Both.

Who do you blame, the terrorists or those who fund them?

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

If we kill the terrorists it really doesn't really matter who funds them. You can never control intent but you can control execution. Don't waste you time going after elites you have no control over, go after the ones you do.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I don't think Kids were taught what you believe. Instead I believe people who have come to that conclusion deduced it from the actions and occurrences that have been the touch stones of the last thirty years. Nicaragua, Sarajevo, Kuwait, Somalia, Iraq... Also, Savings and loan, Dot com bubble, Housing bubble, Nafta, Cafta, repeal of estate tax. All these things would make anyone believe that we are an empire, or at least we are the land of opportunists. lol, thank you, thank you, I'll be here until the end of the week, be sure to tip your waiter.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Your version of reality is apparently much different than mine. I believe that the bankers broke no laws because their money influence had already changed the laws to give them an unfair advantage. I am determined to change our system back to one where equality is a basic right for all. Then we can truthfully tell kids that this is a land of opportunity.

As a boy on the playgrounds in the sixties there was a popular sentiment that I believed in, cheaters never win. Now, instead of winners and losers, there are cheaters and losers.

I've already explained that I will vote, but not vote for any republican or democrat unless the money influence in politics is removed.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

You're wrong, the government got exactly what it wanted from the sub prime loans. They created them, the banks merely funded them. Why would the banks force the government to pass laws that would create a financial crisis that has only benefited government? Are the banks stronger than the government or are they staggering around on the verge of failing?

Government has complete control of the financial system right now, they came out of the crisis owning two thirds of our automobile industry, a complete takeover of health care and unions, private sector and public stronger than they have been in 30 years and you are going to tell me the banks are running things?

I fear for our nation.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Unfortunately, it's not just the government. It is the Oligarchy that consists of the government and all of big business. I am saying that the banks, the oil companies, etc., have become one and the same with the government. The process benefits our government representatives and their staffs at the same time it benefits people in big business. The banks are not stronger than the government, they are part of the government. The political process is corrupted by the influence of money, and I too fear for our nation.

Believing that the government has complete control of the financial system right now is true only if you recognize that the banks are a part of the government.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Of those entities you are upset with which do you have any actual control over? Government, you have the vote. Government has convinced you it was the other guy's fault, the banks are on their knees because of the government and you are telling me they are equal in power to the government?

I come here and do this hoping even one person will start to think, maybe it won't be you but maybe someone will read these things and start to wonder why only the government came out of this stronger.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

We don't have the vote. The elite that buy their YES men own the vote by putting out their pigmen to "vote" on.

The solution is glaringly simple.

Get money out of politics so that there is equality in the power of voting.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

You couldn't be more wrong. I know you have blinders on when it comes to the Tea Party, you're trained to ignore the reality and pretend it's just a bunch of racists or whatever your masters are telling you this week.

Take off those ideological blinders for a second and look at what they have done. Between late 2008 and the 2010 elections they changed the direction of American politics, they went out and got candidates who pledged to support a small government, low tax platform and they got them elected and spending an the runaway budget have been the topic of discussion ever since.

I know you've blocked the reality out but that is the power of the people to change government. Frankly, the GOP establishment hates the TP almost as much as the left does.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

You think the banks are on their knees? OMG, either you or I are delusional.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

LOL! How much Citi stock does the government own now? Wake up man.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Hey, if the banks are on their knees, can pigs fly?

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Yep, Pelosi spent more time in government aircraft than any Speaker in history. :)

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

In 1994, Brooksley Born tried to regulate derivatives, well before this financial crisis existed. The bankers told her and Summers who is BOSS.

"I walk into Brooksley's office one day; the blood has drained from her face," says Michael Greenberger, a former top official at the CFTC who worked closely with Born. "She's hanging up the telephone; she says to me: 'That was [former Assistant Treasury Secretary] Larry Summers. He says, "You're going to cause the worst financial crisis since the end of World War II."... [He says he has] 13 bankers in his office who informed him of this. Stop, right away. No more.'"

Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/#ixzz1kmeY2Qw4

Now, what would happen if 13 common American's went up to Summers in his office and demanded he stop something? They would be thrown out by security, that is unless your a bankster that owns ou government.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Frankly, this response is so far down the thread I have no idea what you are responding to but I will say, the propensity of the left to leave links as an answer isn't really that effective.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

I was responding to:

[You're wrong, the government got exactly what it wanted from the sub prime loans. They created them, the banks merely funded them. Why would the banks force the government to pass laws that would create a financial crisis that has only benefited government? Are the banks stronger than the government or are they staggering around on the verge of failing? Government has complete control of the financial system right now, they came out of the crisis owning two thirds of our automobile industry, a complete takeover of health care and unions, private sector and public stronger than they have been in 30 years and you are going to tell me the banks are running things? I fear for our nation.]

There are former heads of Wall Street Banks in our government that have been calling the shots if you have not been paying attention.

In 1994, Brooksley Born tried to regulate derivatives, well before the financial crisis, and the Bankers said, No Way! They also tried smearing her name in the Washington Post at the same time in order to destroy her political career.

So, where was the outrage from these Bankers when these easy loans were being made? I'll tell you where, they were rubbing their greedy hands, concocting all kinds of fraudulent schemes in order to make big, especially since, they made the terms that the American Tax Payer would be on the hook for the losses.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Instead of posting links why don't you make your own argument?

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

So you think me saying Wall Street Banks own our government would suffice without proof?

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

I know that isn't true so how could you possibly prove it? thought you had come to the realization our problem is government not the supporting cast.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

They make their own laws and do as they well please at the expense to the rest of the country, so perhaps, WW3 will start and we will have some other countries with International Law come in and arrest these criminals for the many crimes they have commited.

Not only financially, but war crimes as well, which is for another topic really.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

The Government and Wall Street are one in the same, and both are Financial Terrorists of the highest order. I do not give a free pass to those in government nor those on Wall Street, because they are both equally culpable.

It is my hope that we are liberated by a foreign country from these parasites and terrorists, because they are traitors and not American's much less Human Beings.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Crony capitalism has become a problem under Obama, he and Immelt of GE are practically butt buddies. Now it turns out that killing the pipeline will help his pal Warren Buffett who owns the railroad that will be used to transport the oil we get from them. Pretty handy eh?

Don't wish for our country to fail and be invaded. While I'm sure our politics are miles apart I respect your right to elect who you wish. Start in your congressional district and get serious about finding a candidate who meets your requirements, he may not be perfect but the biggest problem we have in America is sending the same bozos to congress over and over.

Don't let them distract you with futile witch hunts, change congress, change America.

[-] 2 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Would you say the same to those who fought our original revolutionary war? That is, just to forget about fighting and make the system work for you?

The analogy may not be perfect, but I do believe that Wall Street is a part of the same empire that we fought against over 200 years ago.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

The Revolutionary War was fought against government oppression, against taxation without representation, for freedom. They fought for the system we have, not the oppressive, heavy taxation you folks want. They wanted you to be free to make your way, not to depend on government handouts.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Inflation is taxation without representation. And it is happening at an increasing rate. Some say that inevitably, it will wipe out all your savings, unless it is stopped. That's worth fighting against, isn't it?

We don't want more taxation, we want increased revenue generation, more jobs, more business opportunities.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

What do you think causes inflation? The government cheapens money by printing more of it. When you have excess money chasing a finite amount of goods the prices go up.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, 75% of the posts here are about increasing taxes. Somehow the government has convinced you that giving them more money through higher taxes is going to help the economy. The government has caused this crisis because of spending more than we earn through the taxes we have now.

Do you really believe if we increase taxes the government will begin to reduce the deficit or do you think they will continue to spend America into oblivion?

If you want more jobs and more opportunity, get government out of the way, force them to stop spending our future.

[-] 1 points by impalero (49) 2 years ago

I don't understand how people like you tend to look at the "Government" and then the rest as two separate entities?

I can post page after page of Campaign Donations from Wall Street Banks and Mega Corporations. I can start a large list of people in the government that formally served as heads of Banks of Wall Street and Major Corporations.

Yet, you seem two differentiate the two as if they are two separate entities.

They exist to serve each other. I'll help you when I am in office, then save a cushy job for me when I am done and I'll high five you.

Then, lets campaign to get another one of our boys to go in office and he can tailor more laws and regulations, or dispel laws that are in our way for more profits.

When these heads of banks and corporations go into office, they don't go in with the philosophy of determining what is best for the country, but stay with the same business philosophy they came from.

Which is, whats good for Business is good for America. Which means helping them and their cronies out, rather than taking a macro view of the country as a whole.

How is that working out?

How is it responsible and ethical to only work for the interests of yourself and your cronies, by rigging the "free market" at the expense to the rest of the country.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

You are referring to the elite in our country who move between government, media and business with ease. And you are correct in that they have no more concern for you or the country than a diseased dog. If you have the ability to recognize that the elite (where there is no right or left, only power) is the problem, why on earth would you pick on the junior partner?

The elite's sphere of operation is government, business and media. Of those three government is the source of all power, business merely feeds it cash and the media proselytizes the propaganda.

Recognizing that we have an elite problem in our country why would you choose to castigate the junior partner? I think you have an affinity for government because they have the power to give you money taken from business and you know for an absolute fact that business is never going to give you shit.

You see? That's how government operates, they have you out here trashing business because you are afraid if you trash the actual problem, government, they won't give you free shit.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

You both are correct sir. The printing of more money causes inflation for the same reason counterfeiting is illegal, it diminishes the value of currency. How? The most basic principles of economics. If your demand for cash doesn't stay relative to the accessibility of cash, it devalues. More supply then demand. But now because the value has decreased, you must charge more to have in effect the same amount of value return for your product. Wages however are not going up adequately enough to increase demand for cash and prices are stagnating because nobody has the money to pay higher prices and this is suffocating businesses. So simply increasing demand for cash through wages allows prices to rise because people can afford to pay it. This lack of circulating capital is a bottleneck being created by the 1% and republicans because they tell the country higher wages would kill businesses. Well the lack of buying power is what is killing businesses and causing sluggish tax revenue as well.

At the end of the day, it's people that make a paycheck, not machines. This is the way money circulates. It's not magic.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Show me where Republicans say; "higher wages would kill businesses", that is ridiculous. Wages are a function of supply and demand like any commodity. Where is it written that wages have to reflect the government caused inflation rate? Rage at the government that is spending your future into oblivion, why waste time with private sector businesses who have no control over what the government does, no matter what your political masters tell you.

There is actually an excess of circulating capital, that is one of the driving factors of inflation, too many dollars chasing a finite amount of goods. Pumping capital into the economy was the entire purpose of QE1 and QE2 and there are rumblings of QE3 before the election to keep the cash supply liquid until Obama is reelected.

Unfortunately, your analysis requires a financial system that doesn't exist and never could because it simply doesn't work anywhere except where a bunch of liberals are having coffee and solving the worlds problems. :)

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

swedon apparently


Sweden should be our model

Posted 4 days ago on Jan. 23, 2012, 8:23 a.m. EST by Underdog (129) from Orlando, FL This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Below is paste excerpt from SWEDEN.SE

http://occupywallst.org/forum/sweden-should-be-our-model/


About Non-Violent Change ...

Posted 7 hours ago on Jan. 27, 2012, 6:23 p.m. EST by shadz66 (1735) This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Please : Read ; Consider ; Cogitate & Meditate On ...

How Swedes and Norwegians Broke the Power of the ‘1 Percent’,

http://occupywallst.org/forum/for-those-of-the-99-truly-serious-about-non-violen/

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Ah, liberals, they always think posting a bunch of links constitutes an answer.:)

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

liberal means "of the people"

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I'm not talking about increasing the tax rate, I'm talking about creating more jobs so more people can pay tax. Admittedly, our current president is a farce. He's not doing anything for us, in fact he's working for our enemy.

But we did have presidents who did it right, in my book that would be JFK and FDR, but being the libertarian I imagine you to be, I don't think you'll agree with me on that.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Government doesn't create jobs other than government drone jobs but they must be paid for by the private sector. America has become business unfriendly. Do you really think businesses have goods manufactured over seas because they hate the American working man, only idiots believe that.

Jobs go overseas because of economics, if regulations, taxes and unions costs prevent you from being competitive here then you go to where you can get competitive. If you don't you will go out of business, it really is that simple, there's no evil to it. It is adapt to the business environment here by exporting work or die.

I am an American, not a libertarian.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

The original American revolution was fought to a great extent so that we could do our own manufacturing here, rather than having to accept the cheap goods that the English empire would have preferred to sell us.

I think businesses export jobs not out of hate for Americans but out of greed. Its the same outdated imperialism that wanted to do our manufacturing overseas centuries ago.

Such businesses are short sited. Products can be made better and cheaper by fairly paid workers, since their superior education allows them to innovate new products and better ways of producing them.

There have always been Americans who sympathized with the empire that wanted to export our jobs, we call them traitors.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Are you calling survival greed? You are parroting your training, big bad corporation is sooo greedy they would move jobs offshore to make another dime per unit. The fact is they move offshore to keep making the SAME dime.

Use your head, think this through. If X country imports a widget for 10 cents less than an American company can make and sell the widget what, exactly, do you think happens? People buy the foreign widget to save the 10 cents. That's how it works.

What are the American companies choices? Reduce costs by firing workers, ask the unions to cut benefits, ask the government to reduce taxes and costly regulations or reduce profits by an amount that makes it not worth continuing to make widgets or, move manufacturing over seas to remain competitive and provide what jobs they can in the process.

Here's the sad part, your side calls them greedy for trying to stay in business and you do it loudly. You can barely read a thread here without someone bitching about corporate greed. What about all the companies who didn't make it, why don't you bitch about their greed?

Where is our steel industry? Where are our appliance manufacturing companies? Where are the furniture and carpet companies that used to fill the South? Entire industries gone and millions of jobs with them. I guess they weren't greedy enough, eh?

Can you understand how utterly silly the left sounds when calling companies that are remaining, who are trying to avoid becoming the steel industry, greedy?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

American companies have another choice, to pay their workers well enough so that through education they become creative and capable of inventing new industrial processes to lower the cost of production.

We don't have to let foreign countries that depend on slave labor into our market. If our workers are farily paid, they can afford products that cost more.

[-] 1 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

Of your two solutions only one is feasible, tariffs. Ask yourself why the government makes no effort to protect American companies from foreign ones that purposely undercut American companies.

As to your solution that American companies increase wages so that employees can become educated and therefore "creative and capable of inventing new processes". Wouldn't it make more sense if kids were educated in school to develop the skills to survive in the real world? Why should a company that is on the brink anyway have to pay for what the educational system should have done, god knows they charged us enough for it,

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

The government has from time to time protected American companies. Why don't you tell us why you think they are not doing so today?

And yes, of course the kids should be taught, not only to survive, but much more, to thrive, in school. However, I believe that most of our culture, including education, has been subverted by imperialists who would like once again to reduce us to slavery or serfdom.

[-] 1 points by Socrate (28) 2 years ago

You're on the brink of conspiracy theory. Here, let me give you a hand and bring you back to reality.

Education in America is not very good, but there is no secret plan to dumb down the nation in order to turn people into slaves. If that were the case, education would be a lot worse and the Internet would be made illegal. The truth is, there are some smart people here, but most people are just dumb by nature. The vast majority of people are born dumb, and die dumb. Some blame crappy American cinema, but given the chance, most Americans would prefer watching Nemo over a film by Fellini. That's a fact.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Government fucks us over. We need to strip the power away from the federal government and give it back to the states. We need to get Obamas boot off our necks.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9727) 2 years ago

Advice from you friendly local KKK.

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

That is an evil thing to say you worthless puke. Your name says all anyone needs to know.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 2 years ago

An evil thing I say? He didn't deny it. The racism in his comments is unmistakeable. Believe me, I know racism when I see it.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Wake up. Obama's boot is not on your neck. Government has helped me with a good public education. I was proud to serve in the military during times of conflict. I rejoice that government watches over the food I eat to make sure it is not contaminated. I admire the people at National Institute of Health who make sure that our pharmaceutical products are safe and effective. I love driving on the national interstate highway system that was instituted by Dwight D. Eisenhower, a Republican President and decorated 5-star general who presided over America's battles of WW2. You get the point. There are countless things I love about America, and many of them come because we have a strong and vibrant government.

The government-sponsored space program that put men on the moon gave not only Americans but the world a plethora of spinoff technologies.

Kirby, you need to increase your meds. You are way off base.

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Obama has put the wood to our economy.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

We one day will put the wood to Jack Ass

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

You been smoking too much Maui Wauwi.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

No Im a drinker and your still a jack Ass!

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

You drink too much douche. Douche.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

Impossible

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

This I agree with. My State rep lives five houses down from me and I can talk with him every weekend - Federal reps - never met one.

If you want a voice in your government, get your government within shouting distance and you WILL have a voice.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

Maybe we don't want any goverment

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Wanting is one thing.

Getting is another.

If you think 3M people can live without no leaders, goverment or whatever you want to call it, you must be ready to take control yourself.