Forum Post: This is not helping the cause
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 15, 2011, 5:48 p.m. EST by Brandon37
(372)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The majority of Americans want tougher immigration policies and border enforcement. If OWS goes this route, it proves it is a leftist movement.
I have more in common with illegals than I do my politicians.
(Man, I hate waiting one minute to post.)
Then we can count on you to advocate an open border policy? Really now....
The majority
Ah,
seems I've heard that before.
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/polls.html
Seems like people in the great white north are unclear on what is happening at the US southern border.
I am well aware that it is an issue with two distinct sides, and of the four or five states that have currently toughened up their laws on illegals one of them is currently rethinking them.
It is a complex issue, and the fact that it is used to divide the public is bullshit.
The French and the Irish faced some of the same problems when they first arrived in this country.
It's bullshit.
Those were legal immigrants. We are not a nation of immigrants. People jumping ahead in line and entering illegally are not the same as Irish immigrants 150 years ago.
the issues are the same - what is different is a quota system, one that is dysfunctional and broken
the exploitation of cheap labor is exactly the same
Then why is OWS not going after the employers who hire them? The majority wants our laws enforced. The cheap labor crowd can go pound sand.
I believe there is a faction within the Occupy Movement looking at the issue of immigration.
Yes, but are they for border security and immigration enforcement, or more concerned with the "rights" of illegal aliens?
I come down on the side of human rights.
With that in mind I would point out that insecurity at our border allows for the importation of drugs, responding to rampant consumer demand for substances that are currently illegal.
In consequence over 45,000 human beings have been slain in Mexico since 2006, and some of them were U.S. citizens.
As for the rest of the movement, until such time as there is consensus, I would suggest you begin a canvass of opinion.
It will of course, be a daunting task . . . . perhaps you can get a grant from the International Repelican Institute to fund your efforts.
; D
Well it sounds like OWS is concerned with those illegally entering our country and their rights. What about the ranchers killed in AZ and Texas by illegal immigrants? Will you speak up for the families who have lost love ones to illegal alien violence and drunk driving?
How about the American worker who lost his job to an illegal? How about all the people waiting in line down in Mexico only to have their job stolen by a border crosser? What about our sovereignty?
Having compassion is fine, but that does not mean you put those breaking the law ahead of our own country. If OWS decides to align itself behind the illegal, it will drive support way down. I understand that you live in Canada and may not see it first hand. Take it from someone living in the southern US. It is not in the best interest of OWS to take this kind of stance. Not if you want vast support.
There are a lot of Mexican Americans who might disagree with that statement.
I don't believe that just because someone enters the country illegally it means they are predisposed to commit felonious acts like robbery and murder. I think it is more a reflection of the desperation borne of the need for survival where they come from.
The federal government has failed the public with the way our immigration policy is designed. I don't have an answer for that, I just recognize the failure at the federal level, one that the politics of division has exploited to our general harm.
We can agree on the feds dropping the ball. I am pretty sure it is on purpose. One thing I might suggest. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because an American is of Mexican decent he or she will be a proponent of illegal immigration. Ask the Hispanics in New Mexico how they feel about it.
All I know for absolutely certain,
is that the movie
which has a central theme of immigration and political corruption, including political assassination
hit store shelves in the Burlington, Vermont area about four days prior to the shooting at Gabrielle Giffords town hall meeting in Tuscon, Arizona, on January 8, 2011; where nineteen people were shot; six of whom died.
From Wiki#Home_media)
Northerners don't hate Canadians... they just blame them. :p
i think everyone agrees illegal immigration depresses american wages and affects job conditions this is a fact my brother was laid off from his job as a flower delivery man for an illegal immigrant because he would work off the books for 7 dollars and hour and no benefits my brother was making 10 and hour with some medical insurance how is that right my brother confronted business owners and they said he could keep his job if he would take 7 and hour and no benefits my bro contacted labor dept. and they said nothing they can do. to the farmers who say that they must employ illegal labor do what europe did modernize and mechanize but then you might cut into your profits and have to pay skilled american labor something damn right no one wants to pick fruit or veg for $60 a day for 10-12 hours most of these small time farmers are worth millions in assets and may get millions more in subsidies. you may have to pay someone a living wage who would have thought. i do not feel bad for any business that breaks the law to turn a profit period. and i am not saying i don't care about these people on a human level i do but we need to fix america and illegal immigration and immigration of manual labor is not needed or wanted today we have plenty of americans to fill the jobs if they could only make a living wage. let them work in their countries to make them better places to live and be. if they are not highly educated and trained they should not be allowed to come here to just better their lives at a possible detriment to an american already a citizen who is trying to better their life period and i am a hard core liberal progressive.
the majority of americans don't care about immigration
Welcome back from Mars. You have a lot of catching up to do with what has been going on here on earth.
exactly
10,000 Maniacs - Candy Everybody Wants (Video)
I think we need to stop buying things from china and buy from central america fair trade goods
Or start producing our own goods again.
My question is what is wrong with harsher immigration laws? And don't say it's inhumane.
Nobody has any actual claim to any land. Once upon a time it was empty land, then it had some guy come along and make a stake, whether it be as a scout or a soldier. Then he made the bold and unfounded claim that the land was his; to the point where he fought and killed others to keep it in his hands. In time, people either accepted the land was his or they fought and took it from him. Eventually the settler becomes the owner written in law.
However did he ever become the inherent owner of that land and of its resources? Did the planet ever recognise him as its rightful occupant? Or was he merely a man who made a lie, convinced himself the lie was true, forced others to except his truth and in turn have his lie written in stone?
We are all illegal immigrants on this planet. Although I'm sympathetic to people who see themselves under threat of foreign invasion the truth is that borders are mere lines on a map. Greedy CEOs and the super rich have no more entitlement to it than you or anyone else. Don't let them think otherwise.
This kind of nonsense adds nothing constructive to the debate. We are not about to abolish our borders and sovereignty. Let's think of realistic scenarios.
I knew you would like that. I was not stating the abolishment of borders (you tool) but a mere sympathetic ear that perhaps the illegal immigrants aren't any inherently different than you are.
Grow a brain please (forgive the ad hominem but I thought it was a nice touch.)
Grow a brain? You mean throw all logic out the window and jump aboard the emotional one world people mantra. Allowing anyone to cross our border is not even close to a reasonable or safe idea.
It's not how the human race operates. Every culture and creed requires a homeland. You don't just forget about borders and embrace a multi cultural society. Ask Britain how well this worked.
In regards to your last point: I'm British and we never abolished borders. Don't think because there was a riot the multi-cultural component was an abysmal failure. If I recall a large number of rioters were white and bored teenagers for that matter.
There's a difference between pondering a theory and acting on one. All I was saying was something which I believed was the case in regards to the world (particularly its history.) But humanity is flawed, so thats why I'm happy for it to keep its borders; its a weak species and it needs things like this. In any case its past my bed time so I'll leave you be and hope I haven't pissed you off with my non-constructive nonsense. Farewell.
Oh ha ha. Of course. This makes perfect sense. Listen up Brit. You can come to AZ and see how portions of the state have been taken over by Mexican criminal cartels. Phoenix AZ has become the kidnapping capital of the world. Meanwhile you are over in jolly ol England without a clue. All you have is your emotional ideology. You are proof that other countries have no business in the dialogue regarding some of our most important issues. It is impossible for you to have a clear view of the situation.
However, you are a reliable source when discussing the Muslim takeover in the EU. Demographic warfare is underway.
You too are letting your emotions into the equation. If it matters to you, then fight for Arizona. The government won't fight for you.
No, our govt will just impede any attempt by the states to protect their sovereignty. They find activist judges to halt any legislation. Then they use illegal immigrants and useful idiots to support their attempt to dilute our culture.
I would say at this time that all criminal illegals should be deported immediately from this country. When I speak of criminal illegals--I mean murderers, cartel members, drug runners, rapists, pedophiles and those who engage in terrorist-like activities whether in their own country or here--should be deported immediately. As for the lesser crimes, I am not sure how it should be handled. We have enough criminals in this country as is without adding to that number.
This country has always had a love affair with cheap labor, so this illegal immigration issue is not a surprise. It creates a sub-class of people in this country which is not good. This is a complicated issue. Right now, my head is spinning from other serious issues I have discussed on this board, so sorry I can't offer any real solutions
It's exhausting,I know, but you're efforts are much appreciated. thx for the refreshing breeze.
Thank you for the kinds words.
Employers should be jailed for hiring them. The border must be secured. However, it starts with the employers. Take away the carrot, the magnet is no longer there. Then, these companies are forced to pay a decent wage to American workers.
I have heard all the sob stories from companies saying they cannot survive without illegal immigrants. Bullshit. We put a man on the moon, we can relearn how to mow our own lawns, landscape our own buildings and cook our own food. I am a conservative that has a big problem with today's American male who cannot even change his own oil.
As I said once before, our country has a long-time love affair with cheap labor, so what you proposed will probably never happen.
I'm not so sure. I think we will always have migrant labor, but it cannot continue the way it is now. We have a socialist president and a socialist homeland security head. That is going to change.
Okay, here is a few ideas. 1)That a 2 year guest worker program be allowed and after that time the illegal immigrant would have to return back to his or her country in order to apply for another 2 year guest worker program (they can only do this three times before they permanently go back home or legally immigrate over here.) 2) They can join our military and earn their citizenship. They don't necessarily have to serve overseas, but work here at the military bases where they will be assigned specific jobs. Then after they done that they will official become a U.S. citizen.
3) Within that time they MUST learn english, and they must show a desire to assimilate into this country (like the legal immigrants did).
Now with this said, I don't think illegals should be demonized ( I know they broke the law coming over here), but really there is no opportunities where they come from, so could you really blame them? Also, Mexico is in the middle of a vicious drug war and people are running away from that. Definitely, for this reason, the borders should be secured.
I am all for a reasonable and effective program for those who want to work or pursue legal status. However, we must stop the bleeding. The border cannot remain porous. Our govt cannot continue to support illegal entry.
I would only support a guest worker program if the guest workers were to receive a full living wage of $15 per hour or more (or minimum wage and full housing accommodations) and if persons involved in the guest worker program had DREAM-style conditional pre-citizenship waiting for them after one two-year term. This means that any background checks or other legal or clerical necessities for citizenship must be done before they come to work. Otherwise the guest worker program becomes a six-year revolving door where you can go to get cheap Mexican labor and then simply make legal immigration so difficult that nobody does get in.
You now the more I think about the issues of illegal immigration, I see clearly a problem that those in power simply don't want to solve (e.g. those who hire them for cheap labor and say their business would go under if they paid them decent wages.) There within lies the problem. I am all for paying a decent wage, but I can't say that of those who hire illegals in the first place. They will tell you that very excuse I just mentioned, that they CAN'T AFFORD to pay them a decent wage.
I said it before and I say it again, this country has a long-time love affair with cheap labor (even free labor). Think back to the times of slavey. This was one of the major reasons that he South went to war with the North of course. Then if you look back at the Industrial Revolution; millions of people worked in factories (even children) for meager wages. Illegal immigrants are the latest group of people added to the list of those being used for cheap labor. I would also like to add to this list those around the world that are working for American companies (in factories paid only a small fraction of what an American worker would be paid). Not surprisingly, the manufacturing industry has been outsourced--all in the name of cheap labor.
This thing goes well past race and nationalities. Right now Mexicans are the largest groups of illegal immigrants in this country, followed by other immigrants from Latin American countries. However, if all these groups of people became legal citizens--guess what? Companies who have been taking advantage of cheap labor from migrant workers from those countries--will no doubt look elsewhere. I would not be surprised to see boatloads of people sneaking into this country. I strongly believe that they would be hiring people from Asian countries if this was the case since they have outsourced many manufacturing jobs to countries in Asia.
I mentioned before that we don't want a sub-class of people in this country. Also, this country is in bad shape and people are very strained financially. I think that housing, paying for the medical needs of the workers, and whatever else that needs to be covered should fall solely on the shoulders of the employers who hired them. The American Taxpayer is being taxed into the ground right now, and can't carry this burden. So, I strongly feel, if these employers want to hire them, they must pay for their employee needs. Again, we will hear from these Employers that it would bankrupt them and that they can't possible do that. If they want to operate a business they must factor in paying people decent work wages at the very least, and they don't even do that.
Finally, I want to address my third point. I strongly emphasis that people learn English in this country. I am so tired of seeing people from all over not taking the time to learn English. I know of a Russian lady who was in this country 35 years and only knows a dozen or so English words. This is simply not acceptable. If I went to another country, I would be expected to learn their language. If I didn't I would be looked down upon. I am not in any way saying that they should only speak English and abandon their native tongue or even abandon their customs. Absolutely not! When I say assimilate, I mean having a love and respect for this country and it's customs. This is their adopted homeland. Celebrate your heritage, but never forget that you are in America.
I think back to the days of the terrible events of 9/11 where nearly 3,000 people lost their lives (most were Americans). To the terrorist, it didn't matter whether you were German, Irish, Italian-Americans, or Chinese, Korean Americans, or Mexican or Dominican Americans or even African-American. We were Americans to them. I remember after that day, everyone on my block (some people who never did this before) had up an American Flag in front of there houses. I never forget this.
So, I am going to end this here, I know it is long, but I wanted to address your replies. We do need to get on top of our immigration issues in this country. Ignoring it, does not help. This is a "hot potato issue" that is just tossed around, and nothing is done about it. That needs to change.
You seem to care too much about those breaking the law by entering than you do the American worker. Just an observation.
I don't mind immigration; what I want is to see it occur in a manner that doesn't screw the American worker. The reason I would demand wages on that scale for guest workers isn't just for their welfare, but because you've now forced up the minimum wage in the region to the point where someone can live on it. I would still have no problem deporting illegal immigrants who don't meet the requirements for the guest worker program, and presenting said illegals with the choice of applying for the program and getting citizenship that way, or going home.
I think the best option is to make everify mandatory in all 50 states. Secure the border, then enact a more functional guest worker program.
You know with the way things are going in this country--who knows maybe it will be running illegally into Canada (after they decide to close their borders to American migration).
Yes, our border to the south should be closed. I agree.
It depends; I believe in the DREAM Act because those people who come in under that program are not coming in here to take dirty jobs off the books for little pay, and because those people have been specifically selected because they've demonstrated a strong commitment to this country, are doing more with their lives than one whole group of people who want them gone, and are culturally American already. As far as further immigration reform goes, I want to see an end to the shadow economy, which would ideally be accomplished through DREAM-style requirements and support for those who wish to stay, deportation of criminals, and tightening of border security.
The issue of naturalization is at the core. When you introduce a culture into another culture too rapidly, you create ghettos and sub cultures. Self segregation.
People coming here from other countries must learn the culture and language, or face certain isolation and poverty.
Here's the thing; when one group floods another group then there is a problem, predominantly an economic one. Many of them start at the bottom of the economic ladder and try to work their way up, inevitably taking bottom-rung jobs from those who depended on them up until now and temporarily depressing the equilibrium wage in those markets. Ghettoization is a problem, but it's generally one that resolves itself under the right circumstances; immigrant poverty is usually of a different and more temporary nature than generational poverty and a lot of the time immigrants or their children go on to greatly benefit society as much as they have benefited from it.
I agree with you that learning English is important, but requiring that they shed their culture completely and Anglicize themselves is just plain racist. There will be parts of their culture that don't work and will in time fall away and then there will be things that are a part of their culture that we can't believe we're not already doing and thus will become a part of our culture. Consider it a form of cultural meritocracy in which those ideas that work the best stay with us and those that don't are discarded or replaced.
The whole "our culture is under attack" phenomenon is paranoid and in fact is utterly ridiculous. Having to live next door to someone who has a different skin color than you, or who speaks a different language than you, or who worships differently from you does not mean that they automatically want to eradicate English or chase you out of your church or look down on you because you're white; rather you're the ones who feel that you have the right to do this to them.
I grew up in New York, in which there is no real majority of any race or ethnicity and in which everyone is crammed cheek by jowl into the same city alongside everyone else. Do we have poverty? Yes. Do we have ghettos? Of course. Do we have discord between people of different ethnicities? Absolutely; when you have projects interspersed in a largely Hasidic neighborhood with hipsters trying to make space for themselves there are going to be tensions.
That said, as much as we bitch and we moan about the obnoxious things the guy living next to us does, and as much as we wish to God that the damn fish stores wouldn't stink up the neighborhood or that so-and-so would stop spitting all over the place, we're far more reasonable about it than those states that are prepared to pass Arizona-style laws.
I'm sorry. I disagree. If ghettos resolved themselves, we wouldn't still have them. Two, I never said anything about Anglicizing anyone. If we are talking about illegal immigration from Mexico, then it is logical to assume we are talking about Hispanics. However, being Hispanic has nothing to do with culture. Many Anglos have grown up in Mexico and consider their culture to be Mexican. That is not racist. Another example would be Santa Fe New Mexico, where the local Hispanics are fed up with the influx from Mexico. My best friend lives in this town. He is also Hispanic. He put the culture issue very nicely when he said "our decedents came from Spain. We do not celebrate Cinco De Mayo. We have a different history and place of origin. " He is right. The Hispanics of New Mexico are not of Aztec decent and share a much different culture. Their style of food is nothing like that of Mexico. Who they glamorize is much different than someone living in Mexico. This town also mandates that all buildings share certain decorative features to maintain the image of the town. They also are very strict on business growth. They are protecting their culture. Even as a gringo, I wholeheartedly support this. They have every right and it is at the core of human nature for them to be concerned with protecting their culture.
People who claim flags and countries are meaningless are clueless when it comes to human nature. It is engrained in our soul. It cannot be changed.
It is absolutely ridiculous to assume America does not have an overall culture - complete with customs and traditions. Every culture deserves a homeland. It has little to do with race. Very little.
BTW Arizona's law mirrors federal law. The federal law the Obama admin refuses to enforce. I can spend another hour going over all the disinformation regarding that bill that has been made mainstream by the liberal media. Stuff I guarantee you believe. The blatant attempt at diluting our culture is so egregious, it makes me sick to type about it. Americans are fed up. The race cards has been played out -especially when it comes from Lilly White liberals no where near the border. I am not saying you fit this bill at all. I am merely pointing out the meaningless hyperbole that is widespread and easy to detect.
People must be naturalized to gain residence in this nation.
By "resolving themselves" I meant that many new groups of immigrants temporarily swell the ranks of the poor and temporarily increase the size of the ghettoes because rent is cheap in the ghetto and even though the conditions there are pretty bad compared to what a middle American from the suburbs is used to it's often still a step up from the conditions in which they came from. Within a couple of generations most of their children and grandchildren will have migrated out of the ghetto and become a part of the rest of society and only a few will be added onto the generationally poor that make up the ghetto's core constituency.
As far as the Hispanic thing, I'm fully aware of that; my father was second generation Puerto Rican of Spaniard descent and my mother is from Minnesota and could probably trace her lineage all the way back to the American Revolution if she chose to. I'm fully aware that ethnic Mexicans are not ethnic Puerto Ricans who in turn are not ethnic Dominicans and so on and so forth and I didn't intend to imply that kind of cultural homogeneity on their part.
A lot of the rest of my post doesn't pertain specifically to you so much as it is a general complaint about a particular type of xenophobia that tends to pop up when you get large waves of immigration to this country, best exemplified by the rise of the Know-Nothing party in the mid-1800s in response to the massive wave of dirt-poor Irish immigrants turning up at our ports. Everyone sees the oncoming flood of new people with different cultures, and some people start to get quite upset and act like the new immigrants are merely here to turn us into an outpost of their home country.
As far as the overwhelming culture of America, what you're mostly talking about is the culture of suburban and rural middle America, which is for the most part defined by values that took their cues from the Puritans, spun off from Europe two centuries ago and since then have taken a decidedly unique tack compared to the rest of the world. The culture of the cities, especially New York, is completely different. We've had (and still have) so many different groups of immigrants showing up and settling here that I don't really know of any place quite like us.
If you come here, depending on where you are you literally won't be able to walk more than a few blocks without hitting a different enclave (this is especially true in parts of Brooklyn). We have hipsters, Hasidim, and projects all in one neighborhood. We have new money (mostly white) and Middle Eastern Muslims and working-class Mexicans all within a fifteen minute walk of each other. Every neighborhood and every few blocks has its own distinct culture and flavor, and what arises from this is a general culture of live and let live, or more accurately "I won't piss you off if you won't piss me off" that works pretty well for us. The idea of being able to go miles and miles and still have one culture, one race, one way of thinking is somewhat disconcerting to me and seems like a profoundly narrow way to live.
As far as the Arizona law is concerned, I'm referring specifically to the provision that requires police to ask for papers if you're stopped at any point and allows a perfectly legal permanent resident who left his green card at home to be charged with a crime.(or for a legal Hispanic resident of the state who happened to leave his ID at home to be presumed to be illegal and handed over to ICE).
Well, we have some fundamental disagreements on culture and immigration. I respect your stance. I do not agree that overall American culture is isolated to rural or suburban America. NYC may have a different aspects than say Dallas, but people still associate each other as being American. There is an overall culture that is universal in the United States.
I don't care what race people are. But. If new immigrants refuse to adhere to our culture, adopt our laws and customs or try to change it to accustom their way of life, they have no business being here IMO.
I stand by my previous comment that it is much bigger than race. I grew up in the Bible Belt South. You would be hard pressed to find any Puritan influence around this part of the country. The Southern Baptists and Southern Methodists have very little in common with the Puritans of the north.
Forgive me for generalizing too much above; what I meant is that American culture is at its core regional, and varies quite widely across regions. Based on that, I feel that fears about American culture being somehow corrupted or damaged by recalcitrant immigrants are unfounded. I believe this because I believe that the things that define us as American (that is, not having any one of these things is enough to define you as not American) is a short enough list of fundamental enough ideas that most if not all cultures are compatible with it, and given the degree of variance we already have I don't see how a little more can hurt.
Fair enough. I may not agree with all of your stance, but I know you mean well.