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Forum Post: This could happen to you:

Posted 2 years ago on July 6, 2012, 2:18 p.m. EST by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Whenever we talk about minimum wage, many say it doesn’t affect me, I’m way too smart to work for minimum wage. Well as we strip workers of their rights and voices, as we demonize government workers because they refuse to work for free. What happens if people start not liking your job?

http://citizensvoice.com/news/scranton-moves-ahead-with-minimum-wage-pay-for-city-workers-despite-injunction-1.1339867

UPDATE

here's a link about how they got here, some are confused it had something to do with too much pay/benefits

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/business/surprised-taxpayers-are-paying-for-bonds-they-did-not-vote-on.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

113 Comments

113 Comments


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[-] 2 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Instead of asking why union and government workers make so much, should we be all better off rather asking why so many nonunion and private industry workers make so little?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I agree, it is the type of class warfare the 1% encourages, between those with good paying union jobs and those without them, they have been doing this since at least the eghties.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

cuts must be made

is a meme of our political culture

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

let's start with the trust funds

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

trust funds allow corps to take action

higher people, build capital,

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

collective capital would not be so bad if we had collective labor, should be in the paperwork, that way mom and pop don't have to worry about a thing as far as unions go, that way we build lots of plants and people get paid a decent wage to work in them

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

trust funds are targets for con men, and here we are

[-] -2 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

No, it's a fight between people with entrenched "good" union government jobs and the people being bent over to pay for them via ever increasing taxes. It's about time taxpayers had it out over the excesses of their employees.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The excesses of the senate and congress? I believe that is why Occupy came to be. With the prime example being wallstreet crime meltdown then bailout which left millions of citizens fucked-over without a 2nd thought.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I honestly believe that the fair and surest way out of the current financial mess long term is a huge inheritance tax so that those that benefitted from the economic investment that the public debt represents can pay it off. The money is there, it really is nowhere else, I say 99% over 5 million, but that’s because I don’t want to start too low, I’d go up 2, maybe 3 hundred percent say 97% tax. Dereicted at redeeming bonds only so the money is not taken out of the ecomnony at all but used to pay back the smart people that invested in America.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Reinvestment into society is the key. Healthy reinvestment. Clean and green can be profitable.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The Germans make money making solar power, multipoint distribution and financing for the panels because they really do pay for themselves, it’s a start. Seems we should be working on better batteries too for cars and such, the thing is people don’t want to take a chance and as long as the government is borrowing they don’t have too. We need to adjust tax rates so that we stop borrowing money now, we already aren’t keeping up with services and infrastructure now so those that say we should do it by cutting, either don’t want it to happen at all, (so we will be owned by the bankers) or they got the money and just don’t want to give it up.

If you didn’t see this, it’s also a way to push back, people becoming more self sufficient:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/marcin_jakubowski.html

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes I have seen this ted-talk a good presentation and good thoughts values program. Open source communications education is great.

Education is the key to awareness understanding and action.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Wait a minute I thought rich people paid most of the taxes.

I know somebody is being bent over but I don't think it's the Romney boys do you?

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

They do at the federal level. In fact, almost half the population now pays nothing at all to support out national government. But that's much less the case at the state and local level. Far fewer people pay nothing.

In any event, having a public job is supposed to be about doing the public's work, not about being some lucky holder of a redistribution entitlement.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3552) 2 years ago

Your statement of "almost half the population now pays nothing at all to support out national government" is false. You have succumbed to the propaganda of the rich. It is roughly true for income taxes alone but there ARE other taxes such as payroll taxes that are paid mostly by the non-rich. I can mislead people easily by talking only a small part of a big picture, such as 100% of the non-rich pay no estate taxes. Is it true or am I trying to pull your leg?

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[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

15% total tax rate on most their income? really they pay the most, who else pays less than 14%?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I see your point, they should work for free and be glad to do it. If the 1% get their way soon all will be happy to work for a crust of bread and be glad for it.

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[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Most people with public jobs actually do do the public's work.

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[-] 1 points by elf3 (3103) 2 years ago

Perfect point but they're too pissed off watching a-holes profiting off of their little meager paychecks and quite frankly they should be. Say how do I get in that union again or get that public job - oh yeah I don't unless I am connected.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

We should be looking at building and supporting unions and competitive pay in the private sector. (I know, easier said than done, but just because it ain't easy doesn't mean one should not try to do it.)

To get a public sector job; openings are out there. Get a good education, go to the right parties, and don't be too picky about the work.

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

That's no reason to overlook the scam of government unions. The drain of government is workers. I know the government class desperately wants attention elsewhere, but making government workers better off isn't a route to making everyone else better off, it's making everyone else WORSE off. Unions continuously call for tax increases that harm working families. Worsened services as the money gets siphoned off to excessive benefits is also hurting families.

We can't all climb into the cart. Someone has to pull it.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

And the 150 million workers pull it. They average $100,000 in productivity, but receive just a fraction. 75 million workers earn less than $26,000 a year. where is all of the money going? To a few at the top.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

we don't have to agree on everything, unless your THAT kind of person, but i thought I would step in here

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

To entitlements.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

The rich are receiving what they are not entitled to. The top 10% take home roughly 50% of the income. On average they make 5 times what the lower 90% do.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3629

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

That's your opinion. I'm in the top 10% and I've earned what I have. I marvel at how some people can get paid anything at all when I encounter someone, for example, that can't even make change or follow a simple instruction. But, see, I didn't make bad choices either like take drugs, quit school, have an unwed pregnancy, blow money on garbage and the like. I know that liberals don't think choices matter, but successful people know that they do.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Let's look at income by education. A person with an associates degree makes $40K a year, with a bachelors $55K, a masters $65K, a doctorate $80K.

Assume these people never took drugs, got pregnant, or made other bad choices.

A very rough average income for all people earning income nationally is about $100k. Not until a doctorate degree is obtained does income match average national income. A person with a doctorate earns a median income of just over $100k if we also add benefits paid.

Does something not sound right here? Even a person with a masters degree does not make the national average in salary.

http://www.qualityinfo.org/olmisj/ArticleReader?itemid=00007644

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Yes, something doesn't sound right: your numbers. I have a masters degree and make about $1 million (although it varies).

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

My numbers are well within the accepted range. Just because your salary is well above the median for your level of education, does not change the fact that most with a masters degree make less than average compensation in relation to the national average.

Obviously your job skills are not just related to your education. What kind of work do you do?

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Your average income number of $100k is too high. Also, just generically over the years, data like yours consistently looks too low to me. When I see surveys like that, the numbers are always less than people that I know in those areas. Just use common sense. To only make $80k with a PhD pretty much in reality would mean that you really aren't trying at all for income.

But skills and education seldom stand on their own. So, it's a mix. Education without the person doesn't mean much and the person doesn't mean much without the education. I work in helping companies get capital. But when I think about people I went to school with that do a variety of things, no one makes as little as the data you present.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

GDP is roughly $15 trillion a year. The working population roughly 150 million. So average ouput per capita is about $100,000. If you calculate by number of hours worked the figure climbs to over $120,000 since some low income earners only work part time.

"The people you know in those areas" is not a fair representation of what people are really making nationwide. The statistics clearly say otherwise. In fact real income, even for people with advanced degrees when adjusted for inflation, have not shared in the gains in productivity that their educations have helped to produce. Real wages in the U.S. have been stagnate since the 70's. Inflation may make it seem like you are making more, but most are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_median_personal_income_by_education_attainment_in_the_US.png

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

But all income isn't due to workers, some is due to capital.

Honestly, if you make $80k with a PhD, you either live a Peace Corp-like life so you earn very little on purpose or you are utterly mis-educated (it's a fraudulent PhD like in African American Studies).

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

The basis of all capital is human labor. Say you invested in a new machine in your factory. The machine itself required labor to design and assemble. The steel the machine was built from required labor to mine it, smelt it, and form it. The energy that machine consumed required labor to extract, transport, and process. But not a penny goes to the machine, or the earth and sun that was it's source. Every penny ultimately goes to a human being.

That is why dividing GDP by the number of workers or the number of hours worked gives a fair estimate of what an average income, or hourly rate really is.

$80,000 median income for a PhD is what the statistics say. Half make more and half make less. I base my arguments on facts, not guesses. Please provide some proven statistics that support your claim if they are available.

I would have thought that the average national income would be somewhere in the $40,000 to $50,000 range, but it's because a relatively small percentage at the top make so much, that it skews the entire picture. That and inflation which skews it even more.

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[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

I don't see what government workers are getting in compensation as being excessive. Government unions is not what is causing low wages in private industry. Look at where the money is going. Its going overseas to wars and outsourcing. That has nothing to do with unions. Also, look at the top CEOs in major private industries and banks. See how much they're earning off the common man's sweat.

If the average private sector employee had half a brain, they'd be forming and joining unions. Its the only thing that protects the average guy.

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Government unions aren't generally causing wage pressures outside government, that's true. They are in some places like Illinois where unions so disrupt government's finances and its capacity to operate that they're killing economic growth and with it jobs and wages for non-government workers, but that's not most places. But they do reduce the standard of living of non-government workers by the taxes they demand to support them and the crowding out of services they cause. Govt unions are relentless advocates for higher taxes. Those taxes get taken away from other spending priorities of families. Govt benefits are also sucking the life out of services that people would otherwise like to have access to.

Compensation is excess when counting job security (it's almost impossible to be fired) and benefits. Benefits include pensions, very early retirement ages, healthcare freebies, and things like being able to walk off with sick day checks. A lot of people simply don't know the math of it. Spending as much time in retirement as working (or more) is enormously costly. Even a $50k annuity for life starting at 55 with a right of survivorship is worth almost $1 million if you went out and bought it as an annuity. Almost no middle class people of that worker not working for government has a 401k of that size.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Why are you bitching about some folks who worked hard all their lives, and for it got fair pay and a good pension. So, they get mil or so in retirement. That is no big deal compared to say an even a small time wall street investment banker who makes $10mil a year. Most investment bankers on wall street make much more, and they contribute absolutely nothing to actual productivity in this country.

The taxes which are being proposed to be raised are not those of poor and average working families. They are the taxes of folks like investment bankers and the like who make over $250,000 a year. The intent is to pay for desperately need social services like primary school education which benefit average working people, and infrastructure projects which benefit the private sector economy. How does that not make sense?

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thirty years ago people said "you give up pay to work for the government, but you have the feeling of severing your country" sure they formed unions and got got close to what the private sector paid, but now the private sector has all but gotten rid of unions and so it looks like government workers are well paid. Now we don't talk about the pay at EXXON because it's "private" but how often are we reminded about how many own shares through their retirement accounts, so don't that give us a right to look? and if we do don't we see a few people with a whole shit load of money while they tell us to squabble over crumbs?

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[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

The same people who rail against county taxes, are wholly in favor of federal taxes for healthcare. The reality is it isn't the employees siphoning local government but the entitlement programs, the political construction and consulting contracts, and the party sinecures. As cuts are imposed by county executives and legislators seeking reelection, the employee becomes the focus of tax payer angst under the fictional guise of good governance, as in - "Elect us, we'll make them pay for their greed." They forget that civil servants make up a significant portion of the tax base today precisely because private industry, and it's past equal or greater security and benefit, has all but disappeared thanks to inept governance, taxes, and corruption. Now we're attacking those tax payers - and the very tax contributions - that fill this void.

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

The entitlement programs are killing the federal government, but it's the unions that are killing state and local government. At that level, unions are a big part of the corruption you mention.

Civil servants are part of the tax base, but don't forgot your math. Paying government workers $1 more because you get $.10 back in taxes isn't really a sensible idea for straightening out government finances. It's like a company that's selling products below cost deciding to make it up in volumes as a solution. LOL

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We must stop entitling wallstreet.

We must stop entitling fossil fuel.

We must stop entitling elite tax dodging.

We must stop entitling government to play at their own games.

Yes these entitlements must end.

[-] -2 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Actually, it's Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, and now Medicaid that are the bankrupting entitlements. Eh, but who cares about the grandkids, you've earned it.

Why not give these people a call? It's no cost to you! Too bad the same can't be said of the grandkids.

http://www.thescooterstore.com/mobility/microsite/09/?code=INT052GMT&p=8007963958

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Well now that depends on whether that department is revenue producing or services debiting, doesn't it? In NY, Medicaid is the biggest drain on county government. While our county exec's are being busted for taking illegal campaign contributions for construction and consulting contracts, employees are being laid off and seeing a reduction in medical benefits of up to 25%... all because that County exec has run on a fictitious platform of caring for tax payer dollars, and entitlement programs are killing us. And now we have a federal exec calling for a rapid Medicaid expansion. We've become a nation of rogues, where every man's a thief, pointing his finger at the other guy.

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

There is corruption in government besides just the unions, that's clear. Unions, of course, sponsor much of it (although not all, of course). It's the process of them paving the way for the election of their own bosses who then in turn, sell out the public interest for the union's benefit.

Medicaid is a horrible problem. Obama declaring even more healthcare as "free" will make it worse. You can thank our open border for much of it as we've wheeled in huge numbers of people that are only qualified for menial jobs that have no possibility of earning enough to pay their own bills. The really fun part? They have lots of kids that are US citizens and go straight onto the system from birth.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

I don't think this can fly indefinitely... let's face it, if repeal makes it thru the House, and a simple majority in the Senate, Obama will never sign it. This is going to be a long process but at some point the American people have to win or violence in this country will escalate.

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Medicaid is another bomb. Liberals think Medicare and Medicaid are miracles of efficiency, when mostly they're just cost shifters. Their reimbursements, especially in Medicaid, are too low to fully compensate for costs. So, private payers pick up the slack. In this way, both programs put a hidden tax off on the rest of the system.

As Medicaid now grows, it all breaks. Even without Obama putting 50% more people on the tit, it was facing declining participation by providers. Simply put, you can have a few people getting shit for huge discounts or free, but the more people you add, the harder it becomes to give the discounts. You can run a practice with a few patients barely paying, but not the whole practice.

So here's what happens: Medicaid costs explode. +50% just because of more people. Add another 10% because they're declaring more stuff free. But then reimbursements will have to rise a lot otherwise providers won't see them. So, Medicaid spending will go up something like 80%. The average state spends 22% of it's budget on Medicaid. An 80% increase means an extra almost 18% in spending overall in the budget Holy shit! So much for building roads.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

In NY the match is 50%... what we fear also are massive increases in the cost of insurance; our employers can't afford them now so they'll either opt out or throw in the towel. In short we don't see anyone winning from this except the illegals and the insurance companies.

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

Obamacare is all wrong. Just the extra body count will extinguish the cost shifting game that provides the illusion of cheaper. Unless reimbursement go up an ass-load, Obamacare Medicaid people simply won't find doctors. In Texas, only 31% of doctors are taking new Medicaid patients. And that's now!

Yes, companies will quit providing insurance. They'll now dump people on the government. Obama promised people they could keep their coverage. That's a lie. You can see it too by the huge number of waivers already given.

Illegals are a problem. If you want to help healthcare, you'd stop adding more people to the system that can't pay for it. That means deporting the existing illegals and policing our damn border.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

In the years when republicans dominated the senate, the house, and presidency, the illegal alien problem wasn't solved. Why was this?

[-] 0 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

They love the cheap labor and hate to confront minorities. The slums get built-out across town, not in their neighborhoods. Where I live, things are pristine. Illegals are labor, but they go home at night to their apartment slum-like areas somewhere else. People I know want to see themselves as good and not against brown people. It's easy for them to do because they're insulated from the consequences.

Both sides sell us out on this one.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

This is true.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Cheap labor coming into the country and using dollars is rule number one for both parties...

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

It's bizarre because everywhere questions were raised, they merely twisted the truth in an effort to sell the bill, and you have to wonder, to what purpose? They could buy more votes with a good bill than with an obviously bad bill, and they could probably achieve that without trampling all over the Constitution, so... I'm writing this off as corrupt governance, a huge win for insurance companies and special interests at the expense of the public interest.

[-] -1 points by Groupthink5 (-21) 2 years ago

They should take a closer look at their Obamacare "Free" Healthcare cards. They should come with an asterisk that notes "At participating locations." LOL. They simply won't find providers willing to take their reimbursement level.

My doctor used to take some Medicaid, but dropped them. He's now in MDVIP. The last thing he wanted was an extra 10 hours a week working for nothing on people that can still sue him. He also cut back his normal patient load. The MDVIP thing is becoming a trend.

http://www.mdvip.com/patient/default.aspx?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=mdvip&utm_campaign=G_MDVIP_Search_Branded_05.2011

[-] 1 points by TheTrollSlayer (347) from Kingsport, TN 2 years ago

This got anything to do with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AmJCpc93g

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the gent in the flim may or may not understand that all those jobs are now being done by people in Mexico, but at a lower cost of labor so more of the money made is available for the investor to recieve as dividend and capital gain which of course we must tax at the lowest rate possible so they will be willing to move jobs to where they can make the most money

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Did Bain invest in Smith Falls?

[-] 1 points by TheTrollSlayer (347) from Kingsport, TN 2 years ago

dont know

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

they were very good at controling labor cost through outsourcing

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

It would not happen, they will win if they take there case to court., at the end however they have to let them go

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the city is acting in definance of court order now, they say they will pay the back pay I expect the workers may pick up a few late fees in the meantime a setback like this can really hurt even if you get the money in the end, point is the "leaders" are protecting the "taxpayers" before those that provide service, a sign of our times coudle those with coin so you're not tossed out of the club

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

So, what are you supposed to do when you don't have the money to pay the bills - borrow, borrow and borrow to put yourself in more debt so you can continue down that path.

I don't think so - the reality has finally hit for lots of State, County and local governments and it's time for them to clean up their act and become financially solvent.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If only they had the power to levy tax, no wait a minute they do.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sure sure - that's the way to go - lets not tax the wealthy and have them participate in the support of making a healthy society - lets go to austerity instead and really pull money out of the economy - lets just start pushing peoples heads under water..

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

The wealthy are paying more of todays tax then 50% of the people who pay tax. It's not about taxing but getting spending under control. It's not the governments job to create jobs - it's private enterprise -

It is the people who are the ones who can solve the problem not the government nor big business

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Of course the poorest pay no taxes at all. They're in jail.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the wealthly are owning 70% of the country and getting 99% of the say and goodies

[-] -2 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

The wealthy aren't owning 70% of the country - and I'll prove it.

Lets have every working man and woman stop spending the money they make for two weeks then tell me that the wealth own the country.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

That's proof? that's bullshit, here's some proof:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

we need a federal property tax

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

*have you meet the poor?

lovely people

ofcourse, they haven't get two pennies to rub together*

but that's because they're poor

How Robin Hoods men really treated the poor

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Yeh, yeh, for how long have we been hearing that stale line. How much longer will it be for the majority of people to start realizing that doesn't really work.

People solve problems through good government.

[-] 0 points by ABO2012 (-3) 2 years ago

And good citizenship. You do remeber what JFK said? Seems that everyone today is asking (well, demanding) that their country does FOR them

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Yes absolutely. That is precisely my point!

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

stop telling the truth. the left has an agenda and they're sticking to it, facts be damned.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

or they could just tax the rich and the problem is solved.

Or the federal gov could stop giving an annual 14 billion dollar subsidy to JP morgan and give every state 280 million dollars.

And that's just one subsidy.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Send that thought out in an open letter to government - and then copy it off to the public/world on social media.

People communicate share your justified anger and disbelief.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4851) 2 years ago

Good Post

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If you're not in the top .00063%, you're with everybody else, just looking through the window at the deciders, and you never know when they may decide they don't need you, here’s one way to change that:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-about-a-lottery-ticket-if-you-vote-and-individ/

[-] 0 points by elf3 (3103) 2 years ago

Public Unions are ruining unions and giving all other unions a bad name. Some corporations would absolutely trample employees if given that option in fact the name of the game is sub-contracting which also releases them of any and all liability...but when tax payers watch 10 guys standing around a pot-hole sipping coffee getting paid 40 bucks an hour at the tax payers expense (mind you this is due to sweetheart deals, private corporate profiteers, connections/ nepotism, and corrupt politicians on the take) but that isn't what the tax payer sees - on the surface they see and hear the word union - and the right to work act propaganda is running fierce. A little Dr. cop firefighter summer off/ disability here, a private union goes bust there - the mother hood of brother fuckers - and they will all fall like dominoes - and they're doing it all themselves. Older union members vote for a better pension here the newer workers get f'd there until there is no more union left anyway. Right to have no jobs - maybe unions need to learn how to pay something forward and quit protecting connected do-nothing hacks then they'll have a future - just telling it like it is

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I wonder where those "taxpayers" are. The truth is that the government with things like the US post office, which doesn't get any taxpayer money and Medicaid both kick the private sector's ass, truth is government workers do great work when any objective tool is used to look at performance. The 1% are attacking the last unions left to gut their opponents of money at a time when the court has said money rules. If they are successful, the game is over they will just purge anybody they don't want to vote and sure there are those that say that's when things will be perfect for OWS, but I think we can do a lot better than tearing down everything we have built in 200 years.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The entire nation has been living on a credit boom for some time. When the US can no longer just print its way out because the markets wont allow it, we are going to be faced with some very practical, difficult decisions. Basic budget stuff.

Scranton is 16million dollars short. If no one funds them, they are going to have to make some very hard choices that no one is going to like.

Where is the money going? Where is it all disappearing to? Where is this black hole?

The MIC. Its a beast. Its destroying our country for the international profit of corporations.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

we have tons of money trapped in trust funds

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

We have tons of money going overseas to finance wars.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

and about two million in prison here at home, that's got to cost a lot too

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Largest prison population in the world = prisoners/total population.

How many are non-violent drug offenders?

Another insane policy of a failed prohibition.

Lock-up the non-violent in society so that the prison system can really fuck-up their lives and make our society sicker.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It keeps them from voting for life too in most cases.

The King's government wants lots of Sheriffs and prisons and a large army.

The people's government wants healthcare and schools.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep - the corpoRAT government wants pollution and death to fuel profits.

The peoples government wants health and prosperity for all by kicking pollution tech into the garbage heap.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Anything to keep us afraid, if we're afraid of each other that's an added bonus for them. That makes keeping lots of guns around useful for the 1%.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Ya see? That's what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND !!!

What the bloody hell is wrong with people when they see plain as day right in front of their faces who is fucking them over - copoRATS - Fossil Fuel - and a Puppet Government.

BUT THEY LOOK AT EACH OTHER FUNNY INSTEAD OF THE FUCKING CRIMINALS.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The 1% has spent millions deveopling this viewpoint, I always try to see the best in people, but sometimes you just want to slap them, to wake them up. To me one of the things that has done the most harm is the ideal that you can reach out to these mad dog repubilcans and get anything done. It's these people saying they're all the same and people think well what the hell if they're all the same i might as well go for the guy who will cut my taxes, I run into that viewpoint all the time.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The thing is to get people to admit the reality ( the Fact ) that those insane assholes in office at this very point in time - do not - support republican values - no they are not republicans - they are corpoRATist's ( anti-humanity ). Then to get everyone to stop being a party supporter and become issues supporters.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I truly do believe it is a well thought out long term plan to strip average people of power, by denigrating government power, and turning over all control to the wealthy, not just corporations but the wealthy families so they can know that them and theirs will rule forever. The ideal is you empower employers and strip government of it’s power. That way people will do as they are told and be glad if they get to eat at the end of the day.

If we have any chance at freedom here like they have in England we must get rid of all elected officials that would oppose a great National Health Plan like the Brits have and celebrate, that means getting rid of ALL Republicans.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

inflation is really just a scam.

we have yet to print ourselves out of any problem.

all the trillions in fed reserve bailouts have been given to the banks... none of the money has gone to fixing problems.

Also I could solve scrantons problem. Say "fuck you" to JP morgan, cancel their subsidy and give every state 280 million dollars that would have otherwise gone to JP

And yes indeed, the MIC is a blackhole for tax dollars

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Yup, until there are a lot more "fuck you's" being thrown at the power strcuture on the top, nothing is going to change.

[-] -2 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

You didnt read the article.Typical. Scranton is dead broke due to high medical and pension costs.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So you're a new idiot I see, nice profile, NOT.

If you knew your ass from a hole in the ground you would know this is a squabble between power brokers with the working people caught in the middle, the city council and mayor are in a ego war.

“The mayor and council remain at odds over the adoption of an updated Act 47 recovery plan. Doherty has proposed a 78 percent property tax increase over three years, along with a hike in the garbage fee. However, council has refused to pass it and wants the mayor to consider alternative revenue sources.”

Reading is such a lost art.

[-] -2 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

I read the link. Scranton is a shrinking town, whose tax base gets smaller year by year. There is no 1% for whom could be taxed to continue lavish health and pension benefits for public employees. But under the one trick pony thinking of YOU, tax, tax, tax, is the same tired song that has destroyed numerous small and medium sized towns.

Detroit, Stockton, towns all over the country have this same issue. In Wisconsin the people spoke, loud and clear. You and every other liberal ostrich continue to conflate public employees with private employees.

I have read many of your posts and you are a shill for the public employees and you wont understand that most of your ideas will reach down and effect most of the "99%".

You need to read.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Scranton started “privatizing” services and backing 1% projects, it wasn’t benefits that got them in this mess.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/business/surprised-taxpayers-are-paying-for-bonds-they-did-not-vote-on.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

[-] 0 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

huh?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

You always blame people just trying to get by, when money is being taken away by back room deals then when their grand plans go wrong they want the average joe to bail them out, like saying we can't pay Social Security because we got to give dividends and capital gains lower tax rates. This is the same thing on a local level the 1% screw up and then demand that the workers pay the bill.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Lavish?

Did you know Romney has a car elevator? But I guess you would say that's the unseen hand of the market, it's always "fair", yeah right, well I'm not so worried about fair, but I will tell you one thing we got a huge bill to pay that we ran up in the name of the economy and there is not a damn thing wrong with telling those that got the coin to pay the bill.

[-] 0 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

Are you OK? I mean are you mentally healthy? Because Scranton's ability to pay is a local issue and has nothing to do with Mitt Romney. The Scranton median income is $39000. You want to tax them to lavish benefits on greedy public employees? You're crppled mentally.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

What exactly is "lavish" about their pay?

If you bothered to read the link you would see it was private/public partnerships’ that got them in trouble. I am sure there are wealthy Americans somewhere or is Scranton not part of America anymore? We could allow people to work and get paid a decent wage if we all weren’t so scared of pissing off a rich guy somewhere. Romney is involved because he seeks to protect the wealthy from taxes above all other things.

[-] -1 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

As i surmised, you are crippled inside. Romney has nothing to do with Scranton's problems. You dont know that there are rich people in Scranton, and you didnt bother to look. See a mental professional, you need guidance. Therapy is your friend.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

Scranton could raise its taxes, but then I suppose all the bigots in town would cry "socialism."

[-] 2 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Or they would just move to a nearby town with lower taxes. The town my wife and I bought our first house in raised the mil rate literally every year. We, along with a nice sized chunk of the tax base, moved to the next town over. So now that mil rate is even higher to make up for all the tax dollars that left and it is squarely on the shoulders of those too poor to move that the original tax increases were designed to help. Talk about backfiring.

As long as people are allowed to freely move, municipalities (and entire states really) cannot simply raise taxes and not expect those who actually pay a lot of taxes to stay put.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2243) 2 years ago

I must agree that loophole does exist. The town elders do need to be smart enough to give you something for your taxes (like good schools, nice streets, and safe neighborhoods) to entice you to stay. If they can't do that, well yes then I'd move too.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

A good case for federal property tax, on all forms of property, after all protection of property is the government's number one job, and those receiving the benefit should be willing to pay for it.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Well what is the federal income tax for then?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

government clearly does not protect income, given the number of jobs leaving and wage cuts, but it does protect property, so we should tax that instead

[-] 0 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

A federal property tax on top of a state and local tax? Is there no end to liberal desire for centralized control over people's lives? As I said in my above reply, you only know one word, tax, tax, tax.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6480) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

well we are paying the least amount we have in decades, we have in truth been through a long period of constant tax cuts, truth be told