Forum Post: Third Party Candidates are a Mistake
Posted 12 years ago on Sept. 28, 2011, 10:54 p.m. EST by LilyT
(17)
from Miami, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Starting a Third Party or voting for a Third Party Candidate is a terrible, toxic, and destructive idea.
Trying to form a third party would splinter the left wing and give the presidency to Rick Perry or Mitt Romney.
We need to work WITHIN the system by supporting President Obama. Tell President Obama what matters to you and why. Then do everything you can to make sure he is reelected.
Call your congressional representatives (from your cell phone while you are on Wall Street).
Tell them what you want and tell them why.
Tell them that if they do not stand for your ideals, you will not vote for them in the next election cycle.
Then call them again tomorrow.
Call them every time they vote "nay" when you want them to vote "yay."
And keep doing that every day between now and the next election.
All of the campaign money in the world is meaningless against an overflowing voice mailbox filled with messages from actual voters who cared enough work within the system in order to pick up a phone and call them.
http://www.contactingthecongress.org/
A few years ago, there were progressives who wanted to send a message to the "do nothing" democratic candidate that they didn't think was liberal enough for them. They joined behind a far left candidate with no chance of winning against that do-nothing Democrat that they were certain was a lock to win the presidency. This grass-roots, progressive organization attracted the attention of celebrities like Michael Moore and Susan Sarandon, and these progressives successfully got that man almost a 100,000 votes.
The man they voted for was Ralph Nader. The "do nothing" Democrat was Al Gore. George W. Bush won Florida by 537 votes.
If we can't learn from something that happened only a few years ago, and if this movement hurts Obama's reelection prospects, then "Occupy Wall Street" would redefine "Epic Fail" by giving everything to the people we wanted to protest against.
Calls for a third party candidate are such a terrible, toxic, and self-destructive idea that I wouldn't be surprised if the threads asking about third party candidates were written by one of the Koch brothers.
No third party candidates. Work WITHIN the system.
I say we march 10 Million citizens on Washington D.C. and politely escort every bureaucrat, both Democrats and Republicans, to the nearest Unemployment line. It's a good thing you weren't one of the Founding Fathers in 1776. You would have been trying to convince them to "work within the system" and suck-up to the Redcoats. It's time to GUT the system. It's time to START OVER. And impeach Obama.
yep. and retroactively impeach every last president since the crown took over.
Actually, there ARE a couple of prior-Presidents and vice-Presidents that need to be TRIED for their acts of corruption and treason.
If ten million people were marching there then both parties would be "sucking up" to them. The problem is that ten million people are not marching.
Right now, there are 536 people who really want to keep their jobs and have the ability to affect the change you want. Call the ones who will answer directly to you in the next election, and tell them what they need to do to keep their jobs.
Don't give away your power. Three members of congress work for and answer directly to you. Call them and tell them what they need to do in order for them to keep their jobs. If activists start with a "fire them all" mentality, Congress won't listen.
Obama has not done anything deserving impeachment.
You have no idea what Obama has done. You are marching on Wall Street because Obama has shucked 7 Trillion tax-payer dollars into the back pockets of the Financial institutions that you are now protesting against. You have no idea where the money has gone... and who diverted it there. But I do. So that makes YOU the one that is not being realistic.
i do know . i pay very good attention. And thats why we can't be going back and forth between dems and republicans any more. a big devil and a little devil is not a choice, its hell.
Now you're talkin'. Gut the entire system. Start over. Let the NEW generation have a crack at this nightmare. Just like 1776.
yepp
Continuing to support Democrats is keeping we, the other 99, impotent. FINALLY the people are rising up. The party that called us "effin retarded" does NOT deserve our continued support. They need to be challenged at all levels.
No. Wrong numbers, wrong ideas.
The people who challenge without a plan are the ones who want to violently overthrow a government. If you really want to effect change through peaceful ethical protest, you must work within the system.
Protest and call congress with a specific idea.
Protest and email the president with a specific plan.
Protest and vote to reelect President Obama.
QUOTE: "The people who challenge without a plan are the ones who want to violently overthrow a government."
You are going off on a tangent now about violent overthrow. Are you an agent provocateur? The thread is about forming a third party & my response pertains to "challenging" both parties thru the formation of a third party. Don't put words in my mouth or impute harmful motives. That is damaging. And no, this movement should not become part of President Obama's re-election campaign. Now remember, that doesn't mean I am advocating violent overthrow, Lily.
I'm not saying that you want violence. Not at all.
I am simply saying that if you want real change, then you must act in a realistic way.
Working within the two-party system for the past two decades has gotten us where we are today. We need to try something new. Go beyond the two party system and do more than sitting home calling Congresspeople. There is strength in numbers, visibility, reaching out to one another in the real world.
working within the system is a formula for being borg assimilated inside the system and having it kill us all.
Umm... I helped hire Obama in the first place.
Since then he decided (months after 'drill baby drill' fell silent) to drill in the Gulf of Mexico... then he pushed for Health Care (yay!) only to have it force us all to buy insurance from the same hucksters that we wanted to avoid in the first place... and no real controls on controlling either the cost of the care, or the cost of the insurance.
I can make a similar argument for EVERYTHING that I voted for him for, and can assure you, I will not vote for him again.
But lets look at a larger issue... as long as we only have 2 parties, this really doesn't work as a democracy... and thats kinda the point, here.
We NEED multiple parties... we NEED real reform.... we NEED choice.
And we simply aren't going to get it by voting along either party line.
Hell, I'm thinking of simply writing my vote in for 'Anonymous'.
Obama is a terrible candidate. Why would I shoehorn my freedom into a choice between a trashcan full of shit and a trashcan half full of shit, half full of trash? All this would accomplish is to show that you don't need to be good to get elected, just less bad.
"Why do we have this financial disaster? Because in 2000, progressives refused to work within the system and support Al Gore."
Nope. Actually, it was the Gramm-Bliley-Leach Act of 1999, signed by Clinton, passed by overwhelming majorities of both parties in both Houses. Then the housing bubble, then 16.1 trillion handed over to the banksters (TARP, for which Pres. Lightbringer whipped, was < 5% of that).
Now, this kabuki "jobs" bill - which the O-bots are passing off as "getting tough" after being "weak" (not owned, of course) - is yet another way to hand the banksters more money for some temp jobs for things on which We the People will pay fees to private entities/the bankster class, when under Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution the Congress has the power "to coin money and regulate the value thereof," and the president can issue an executive order for a full-employment jobs guarantee, as FDR did with the WPA.
Instead, Congress has abrograted its power to a cadre of private banksters whereby we borrow our own money at interest. Of course, we are only allowed to borrow money when paying banksters (see Bernanke's quote of "effectively" printing money - funds disbursed to banksters weren't constrained by tax revenue) or mercenaries to fight Messiah's humanitarian wars in double the theaters we were in under Bush; when it comes to SS/Medicare (for ALL)/full-employment, let them eat catfood - we're going broke, bro, but at least our president listens to NPR [insert pwog cultural signal].
The parties are symbiotic http://smithbowen.net/linfame/stopme/chapter02.html, and being a leftist involves eschewing anti-democratic institutions such as political parties (perhaps, even third parties, b/c parties serve as identities, and identities are barriers b/w people and policy - as was the case with Obama/Romney insurance bailouts mandating the purchase of a private "product"). Pwogs and libs are a right-wing elite, they are a sort of gatekeeping elite meant to protect the wealth and power of the truly elite under the guise of merit or cultural affinities - but when the rubber hits the road, they will protect the same class interests - maybe while attending a tolerance parade or listening to NPR,
Gawdoftruth,
No.
"Logical fallacies" are for internet message boards. This is about real life.
If you want real change, then you need to be realistic about the real world. There is no such thing as the Oligarchy Party. There are just Democrats and Republicans. The Republicans have a majority in the House, and as long as they continue to do so, and as long as the blue-dog democrats do not realize that people who are reading this message are we are in THEIR district, NOTHING we want can happen.
The Tea Party is made up of the 99%. The are cheering at events paid for by the Koch brothers. The people attending and cheering at Republican debates are members of 99%. They are not stupid; they are just wrong. They don't like hippies, and they are not going to support this movement. They care more about gay marriage and than they do about these issues. They are not listening. They don't care.
Working within the system is the only way to affect real change.
Why do we have Citizens United? Because corporations worked within the system and got their agenda in front of the Supreme Court.
Why are Planned Parenthood clinics being closed around the country? Because the Religious Right finally figured out that they needed to work within the system, call themselves the "Tea Party" and get people elected to Congress.
Why do we have this financial disaster? Because in 2000, progressives refused to work within the system and support Al Gore. They voted for Nader. Bush became President, didn't pay attention to real things, started two wars that he couldn't pay for, appointed a few of the very people who ruled in favor of Citizens United, and he let Wall Street do what ever it wanted. That is why we are in this situation.
Work WITHIN the system. Stop talking about logical paradoxes and all your Congressional Representative.
logical fallacies are relevant to everything including this insane notion that we should all live according to a false dillemma. This is about real life and thats why we can't be caged into a false dillemma. You missed the point about the oligarchy party. its the dems AND the republicans; BOTH. working within the system is merely a way to NOT effect real change, the only way to effect real change is to do the evolutionary WORK. Outside of the system.
Gore "lost" Florida because Bush stole the election. His brother is the Florida governor, remember?
I remember exactly what happened. I was there.
working within a system this corrupted is in essence just giving them the win to rule over us forever. Only a strong new party can take back the power of the people and restore democracy. Arguments such as this fail to ask the question of what if things went viral and 85 percent of the people voted for the third party? assuming failure, your right. lets assume success. Realize this. either way your civlization only has eight years left and then it dies. You can't afford a democrat or a republican. That seals the fate of humanity to extinction.
giving the presidency to rick perry o r mitt romney is a better solution than slow cook death with obama. At least everyone feels the burn and we all wake from the harsher pain. Maybe you are familiar with the old formal logic fallacy. false dillemma? thats all this is. We need a third option, and in truth, we need any option, because republicans and democrats are the two political masks of the oligarchy party.
Either you are too young to remember much of the past decade or you are still asleep.
There is enough pain right now.
hardly true. i am playing an infinite zero sum game. if i loose humanity goes extinct. Since the only true option in that game is a third party candidate, the idea that the outcome could or might go the other way is strategically irrelevant. If humanity is that stupid that it would choose something that bad for itself then it should do so while it still has time to learn the lesson. I don't want any more of that pain either. but i promise you, i'm the one whos awake and the rest of you compared to me are still make beliving your doing something while avoiding the work.
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150409084095833
Humanity is not going to go extinct.
Strategy is the only thing that is relevant. What do we want and how are we going to get there? That is what needs to be planned and acted upon in a realistic way.
really? please explain to me then your civilizations plan to transition out from oil and coal before systemic collapse of your mass distribution network or how you will feed the world while now ten pounds of fuel are tied to every pound of food. You have no idea. Your civilization has less than 8 years left on that doomsday clock alone. You want me to tell you how to build a nuke from nothing but a microwave oven, an oscillometer, and spare parts from radio shack? how long do you think we have till the arab world figures that out? Strategy is the only thing that is important, and given the absolutes of the crisis we face, we had best realize that we have no more time for half measures and deals with the devil or the lessers of evils. Its clear you didn't check my link.
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150409084095833
I have just read it. Is it your web page?
? make up your mind. either you have gone to the page and know where it is and what it looks like or you haven't?
Yes, I looked at it. The author talks about being an aspie. Are you the author?
yes.. obviously...?
Ok. I wanted to know if you were the author of the web page. It was not obvious if you were the author or if you just agreed with it.
If you think that that Romney or Perry are no worse than Obama, before you vote next November, it would be wise to read what Romney or Perry are advocating and categorize their platform positions into columns of acceptable and unacceptable. I think you will find the majority of what they want is unacceptable.
This has been a very interesting discussion.
oh no. i know that they are 10 times worse. so? going with the dems gets our civilization dead. going with the republicans gets our civilization dead. Your talking about the difference as a frog between slowly raising the heat or bringing it to a fast boil. raising the heat faster gives a greater chance of meaningful reflex. If the population is too stupid to go third party then it needs more pain to make it see reason. If you think i like it that way don't kid yourself.
maybe you have heard of the adversity paradox. probably not. its from sociology. sometimes the only thing that can make a social system evolve is a whole lot of hurt. In fact strangely enough social venues where everything is controlled and there is no hurt produce sheeple like people without a sense of reality or how cold the world can be. If what it takes is worse pain to wake up, i'd rather wake up then die for lack of waking.