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Forum Post: there's no difference between the Rs and the Ds

Posted 1 year ago on May 25, 2012, 1:52 p.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
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[-] 4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Mitt Romney says military force is an option against Iran to stop their WMD program.

Barack Obama says military force is an option against Iran to stop their WMD program.

Congress passes the NDAA with bipartisan support and says military force is an option against Iran to stop their WMD program.

Did you know that even Clinton suggested using military force against Iraq for their WMD program in 1998? Then Bush went and did it.

Clinton says clear evidence of WMD's in Iraq. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0f5u_0ytUs

When it comes to war they're pretty much the same.

"Iran is the prize in the center." - Dick Cheney portrayed in Oliver Stone's movie W

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

US Put Sadam Huessin in power and gave him WMD along with Military Training. I guess it is verboten to say this out loud in the media (MSM).

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

There were no WMD. Get off your Larouche site.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Idiot, talk to a soldier.

[-] -1 points by freewriterguy (882) 1 year ago

soldiers are traitors, they blindly followed a dictator to war in a sovereign country that did not provoke us, and congress NEVER DECLARED WAR, as is in the constitution, they killed people, and they will blindly go to martial law and kill us to protect the traitors who govern us, mark my words.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Congress voted for the war in Iraq in 2002.


Remember the whole "if we knew then what we know now" crap they gave to justify their vote for an illegal war of aggression?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Yes, congress is no longer Honorable. We haven't declared war in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Gulf War, Afghanistan in 2001, and in Iraq 2003.

But Soldiers get older and wiser. They can be very good parents etc. I don't think they become activist of any kind in significant percentages. Few soldiers become anti-war activist. They become part of the system. They want the money, benefits, status, respect, and maybe want the structure that tells them what values to hold.

Of course we are talking about a volunteer military which is a little different from being drafted. In the USA most soldiers join young and don't have much insight into our CIA, covert ops, and the use of our military. A couple of years ago I was talking to a retired 1st Sergeant who didn't know a thing about Vietnam. He is my age. Wow.

In his case he represents the good and the bad, the smart, trained, and the ignorant. And like all of us, he is looking for more money, but with and a 2nd career in the military. He has a family and he intends to provide for them and the opportunity is there for him. But he could use a liberal education or a paradigm shift in his soldier views.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

Idiot, I am a solider. I was there, I smelled the corpses of young Iraqi orphans myself.

[-] 5 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

I count 4 different US involvements in Iraq (5 if you count the Iraq-Iran War). In a sick way you sound like a soldier to me. And military people have always had a way of putting things in Black and White. But ...you aren't telling the whole truth. You are controlling the narritive.

We put Sadam in Power, and we gave him weapons. We gave him all kinds of nasty weapons (why not?). And okay Sadam wasn't active with WMD programs Soldiers did find evidence, but it was disregarded because it was the old stuff. We don't want to talk about the technology we gave him. We probably gave him gas weapons to use on Iran in the Iraq-Iran war. But I don't know.

Examples of US wars or military action without logical threat to US Security A) Korea B) Vietnam C) Gulf war with Iraq D) Iraqi Freedom 2003 E) Afghanistan 2001.

Examples of US Covert Actions that stole the right of self- determination from sovereign governments A) Syria 1949 B) Iran 1953 C) Guatemala 1954 D) Cuba 1959 E) Brazil 1964 F) Ghana 1966 G) Iraq 1968 H) Chile 1973 I) Afghanistan 1973-4 J) Iraq 1973-5 K) Argentina 1976 L) Afghanistan 1978-1980s M)Iran 1980

These additional are simply lesser known military actions as part of empire building and looking out for our industrial/trade or strategic interests N) Nicaragua 1980-90 O) El Salvador 1980-92 P) Cambodia 1980-95 Q) Guatemala 1993 R) Mexico 1914 S) Haiti 1915–1934 T) Cuba 1898-1902, 1906–1909, 1912 and 1917–1922 U) Nicaragua 1902-12, 1912 through 1933 V) Dominican Republic 1903, 1904, 1914, 1916-1924 W) Honduras 1903, 1907, 1911, 1912, 1919, 1924 and 1925 X) China 1927 Y) Porto Rico 1898 Z) Panama 1846, 1856, 1903,

We love those wonderful freedom-loving people...

[+] -5 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

There were no WMD. Get off your Larouche site.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17799) 1 year ago

But Trashy, right as you may be for once - The Only W.M.D that you really know are ...

Words of Mass Deception ... n'est ce pas ?!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Try James Lowen's Book, Lies My Teacher Told Me. Page 225 or 260 I was looking at it Yesterday.

But I know you are on my side of the issue already.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17799) 1 year ago

Further to your excellent comments above, I append the following :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Wow, this is looking pretty good.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

WMD's - have you ever seen the destruction if you drop a bag of sand from 5 miles up ?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

Sure there was. Rumsfeld had the receipts. it's just that Saddam had already used the WMDs we sold him on the Kurds.

[-] 2 points by tomdavid55 (93) 1 year ago

Here is a brand new protest song just published 5/26/2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_jT015UdU&feature=youtu.be See also:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQ1WOC9RgY about know difference in r and d

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Nice song. Maybe one more "marchy" and "anthemy" might catch on also.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 1 year ago

they know that al qaida is head quartered in yemen, and they declare war against americans, I say we nuke them and let it be the end.

[-] -3 points by CarlosFenito (36) 1 year ago

No! The parties are different!

Zen's animated cartoon said so! Are you calling him a liar? Mitt is going to outsource governing rights to China for heaven's sakes! We NEED TO STOP HIM! HE'S GOING TO BOMB LIBYA OR SOMETHING!

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Politics is disappointing "Because there is no difference between the Dems & Repugs". Why would Dems keep troops in Iraq & Afghanistan if they were really humanitarians. The Neo-Cons have inflitrated Obama for sure. And Obama Care,... no cost controls, no control over big pharma? Corporate Shill....

Vote 3rd Party, or Boycott, write in Elizabeth Warren, Ron Paul, Catherine Austin Fitts, William K. Black, Noam Chomsky, Robert Reich, etc.

We would drive 'em Nuts if we all wrote in Noam Chomsky. Half of the Repugs would have a heart attack. If Repugs died off, then we'd have a clean house!



[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

The troll "on message" propoganda chorus from now until the election: "There is no difference!"

And when Romney wins they have a jack boot with your name on it

[-] -1 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

In addition to my reply, I question who are the real trolls around here if you want to call someone a troll. I don't like that term because it is an ad hominem and just buries the discussion.

I believe the people who have attacked the site are anarchists. They have said this on a few occasions and have said they do not support either the democrats nor the republicans. I have no reason to doubt them. What they say is true. There is a problem with people on this site trying to co-opt OWS into a political affiliate of the democratic party. This would completely destroy all the strength of OWS which is an anarchic and apolitical protest. What they say is true.

Now, you and many others don't bother replying to their arguments, you simply use ad hominem and call them trolls. This for me is absolutely useless. There argument won't go away by doing that. If you want OWS to become political, then you'll have to come up with strong arguments to explain why these anarchists are wrong.

But yeah, calling them trolls instead of actually thinking about the problem and answering it is so much easier.

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

Actually GyspyKing, if you look at the core principles of OWS you'll see that the protest indeed does not favor any political party since it is anarchic and considers all form or representative republic politics as being corrupted. That's the strength of OWS, and that is why they have clearly stated they do not want to support any party, and have written a forum rules that states that any campaigning material is forbidden on this site.

I'm a socialist, so, of course, if I would vote tomorrow I would vote for the party on the far left. The republicans are pure evil in my eyes. However, this is completely beside the point.

If OWS becomes political, it will fade away. It's major strength is that it plays outside of politics. This means the system can never satisfy it and it will never go away. If it were a political party, then meeting certain demands would lessen it's power.

Now, I don't believe anarchy will ever be implemented in US, and I really don't think the representative republic will fall. However, OWS is important as creator of tensions.

I say keep OWS apolitical and don't talk about politics on this forum or anywhere near OWS. Then, create a political party, or vote for a party that represents what you would like. Just don't mix that up with OWS or you'll weaken the protest. It's two different things.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

I appreciate your position and am glad to hear you state it clearly, but I feel that that view is self-limiting and will prove unsuccessful at least in the near term (less than 5 years). I hope I'm wrong, but the urgency of the issue seems to call for a diversity of tactics.

Institutions themselves are not the problem because institutions are made up of people. Therefore the qustion of direct, or representitive democracy, is secondary to the question of forcing change.

In the light of this fact, I think it is more important to use all available means to achieve change than to fight over the methods of going about it.

We need action on all fronts - not quibbling about process.

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

but the urgency of the issue seems to call for a diversity of tactics.

I agree, and that is why I don't want OWS to be co-opted and turned into a political protest. That would not be a diversity of tactics, but would instead be the deletion of one tactic in favor of another.

If you want diversity of tactics, keep OWS apolitical and use it as an anarchic tactic. Then build another group with a different name that will work on the political front.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Names only matter to egos. Fragmenting the movement over such dellusions isn't productive. What we need is to become mentally flexible, and put our egos away in the same box were we keep our bots - although most of us never actually had a bot.

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

No, fragmenting the protest into various isolated groups is a diversity of tactics. Your solution to co-opt OWS into a political protest is not since it would annihilate the anarchic apolitical tactic which is a core foundation of OWS.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

So, this is about fifedoms, rather than about change as far as you're concerned. Interestingly, that doesn't surprise me.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago


No, I am all for change however OWS is the ONLY anarchic tactic we currently have and it is doing wonders. Killing that tactic by turning it into a political party still tactic which already exists with the numerous political parties we have is not increasing the number of tactics, but decreasing them.

We need an anarchic front based on civil disobedience. Let's keep it. It's an important and very useful tactic. The fact that we are all here talking about OWS is proof that it is a useful tactic.

By starting another group which is political, you are really adding a new tactic does diversifying.

You don't kill one species to replace it with another when you diversity. You use both at the same time.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Way to promote the 99%.

[-] 3 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

He's more into self promotion.

Bot running tyrants are like that.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

What would be the point of self-promoting an anonymous forum character?

And, again, I haven't used bots for months now. Stop propagating lies and the use of logical fallacies. Try promoting the scientific method for a change.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

Here's some of those famous bottom lines for you IIIIIIIIIIIIII.

Or whatever you're calling yourself these days.

You did run and still do endorse bot runners, so that's not a lie.

You are a tyrant, so that's not a lie.

You've been banned umpteen times so far, yet you keep coming back.

That makes you egotistical

If you're tyrannical, abusive, hateful, unloving, unaccepting behavior is representative of anarchy?

You have not represented it well at all.

You have in fact, pushed more people away from it.

That's makes you a liar once again.

As far as your insistence on scientific fact?

How come you never post links in the threads that beg for it?

I know I have,and once again you've never come in to back it up.

No,no, not you, you are far too much of a "leader" for that.

You're still off chasing reptilians.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

I promote OWS for what it has always been, an apolitical anarchic protest. You promote the idea of watering it down to make it just another political protest. Let's promote diversity of tactics by keeping our only anarchic protest, instead of killing it to make it just like thousands of other types of political protests we already have.

The 99% are attracted to OWS because it has no political persuasion. Turn it into a pro-Obama group, and you'll lose of vast number of those in the 99%.

Keep it real, keep it anarchic, don't co-opt what you claim to love.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

PS: If they actually followed the law and order stuff of the rules, even this pointless thread would be gone, along with most of the rest of them.

I'm thinkin' they really don't want the forum to die, yet you and the current bot runners do.. That makes you a tyrant, because youendorse them.

You must learn to understand my son, that there are layers of support.

And you've alienated a whole lot of people already, in your days of bot running.

You should show a little contrition.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

No, like I said, they abandoned the forum a long time ago. That's why they don't really bother with moderation all that much. They spend their time on reedit and NYCGA like I said. They just keep this alive so that posters like yourself are kept out of their hair. The last thing they want is someone like you promoting a co-option towards a political OWS or someone like Renneye talking about reptilians on their reedit channels where real intellectuals like David Graeber are hanging out.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

The only one talking about and hung up on reptilians is YOU!

You never seem to stop mentioning them.

So why don't you shut up about it, and take on a real troll or two.

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

I'm sorry, but Renneye has mentioned all kinds of conspiracy theories under the names renaye, reneye and renneye. Please search the forum. Some are quite entertaining. I'm surprise you defend someone that talks about micro chipped controlled slaves of the elite. Then again, you don't seem too bright.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

The fact still remains that the ONLY one constantly bring up the reptilians is you.

You obsess over it every bit as much as she does.

It makes it look like you're not too bright either.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

You know, there you go again.

Lying to us, picking at a few of us.

I NEVER once saw you attempt to engage any number of the "right" wingers that have infected this sire over the months.

I NEVER once saw you confront a Paulie boy.

Not once, and now you want to attack the progressives?

You yourself keep telling us this forum really has nothing to do with OWS besides the name.

In case you haven't noticed, it's quite simple for the core of the movement to be apolitical, yet every individual involved is a political being.

Every single one. So you want all members of an open internet forum to deny their being?

BTW Marching against, and challenging authority is in and of itself a political act.

So who do think you are zooming?

You spent all you time picking renaye.

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

There's no lying. We simply have different positions and viewpoints. I use arguments to defend my position, and you use ad hominem to defend yours.

I do not believe it would be a good thing for OWS to be co-opted into a political protest aimed at being an affiliate of the democratic party, or any other party. I have stated why on numerous occasions, the only thing you can reply is that I am a troll for having that opinion. Good luck with that.

You yourself keep telling us this forum really has nothing to do with OWS besides the name.

The forum used to be the hub for OWS discussions, but since it has been co-opted by democrats and pro politicians, the discussion has moved to the NYCGA and reedit.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

You mean except for lying about who you ran your bots on?

Or lying about how much you hate conspiracy theories?

Or lying about how running bots isn't tyranny, as long as it's you who approves their usage?

Yeah, there's lots and lots of lying from you IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.

I hope I spelled that correctly.

[-] -2 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

I never lied about using bots. I was always very open about it. I even discussed certain targets with jart. She was aware I was using them and never tried to stop me. If you remember, Thrasymaque used bots for a very long time before being banned. The first time I was banned was by another moderator for something else entirely.

You are the one lying now by implying that I used bots in secrecy! Ask anyone, and they'll tell you I was always open about it. How long did I down vote TIOUAISE for? Very long without a problem. Why? Because jart also hates conspiracy theorists!!!!

[-] 1 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

Yeah, you lied.

You attacked a whole lot more people than that.

I was here.

Some of them were good folks and they never came back.

Some that just observed....... never came back.

You used it as intimidation, as a threat, just exactly like a bully.

Exactly like a tyrant.

So yeah, you are lying.

You helped lose support for this movement.

You caused good posters to abandon this forum, just as the bot attack after that, and the one that has been under way for a couple of weeks now.

Don't you think the normal complement of trolls does enough of that?

[-] -3 points by llllllllllllIllllllllllllllll (-32) 1 year ago

I attacked a lot of people, and some never came back. That's true. I never lied about this it was always in the open. Jart knew, you knew, everybody knew. I aways signed my attacks in a clear manner. I'm basically responsible from purging this site of 911 Truthers. That's a good thing.

Again, I am not responsible for the latest bot attacks, the idea that I am is a lie perpetrated by you.

Name a good poster who left because of me? People leave all the time, for a multitude of reasons. The fact that you are still here means that I'm not kicking anyone out.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

Now you want to defer you're abusive behavior to jart?

Geeze, you're coward.

I didn't say you did perpetrate this attack, so yet another in a long, long line of lies from a conspiracy theorist.

I said you you endorse the attack. A very cowardly attack at that.

I also said you chased those innocent people away from the forum.

It was, as you said months ago, so excuse me if I'm not very good with names.

Bot and sock puppet attacks have chased people from online places of community for years. Not just this forum.

It's pure 100% cowardice.

But you refuse to accept that either.

You claim you attacked truthers? That may be true, but I NEVER saw you attack a birther.

Not once.

I never saw you attack nazi, a sexist, nor a racist either.

Just what YOU decided was a "conspiracy theory".

So once again you lie by picking and choosing, what "conspiracy theory" you are going to attack, with your cowardice.

I also watched you attack dedicated supporters.

Just more tyranny on your part.

You even refuse to admit to your lies.

You have endorsed, and still do endorse pure tyranny.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well said well said. And the truth shall set you free............that is if you can face the truth and then work on being better.

Well some have better prospects at doing that then others do - but hey - Saul had a Paul moment - so keep on tryin trashy. Miracles have been said to happen.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26708) 1 year ago

I'm sick and tired of bot and sock puppet tyranny tying to pass itself off as intrinsic to OWS.

I don't see anything at all about it here.


If you want to bring people over to your way of thinking, attacking and in a way torturing them with bots and sock puppets will NOT do that.

It will only strengthens their existing resolve.

Making it in fact, counter productive.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I agree, and that is why the status-quo supporting sock puppets do it. To drive good people apart.

They have nothing else more effective in their bag of tricks and lies so they stick to that one like a barnacle. Got to keep scraping them off.

You are doing a wonderful job of presenting them with an accurate picture of their deceits and lies as well as their intent to destroy.


[-] 1 points by vikramdas (4) from Bronx, NY 1 year ago

something peculiar like WMD program is an option against Iran to stop it..


[-] -1 points by tupacsugar (-136) 1 year ago

Yes,dementia would explain this post bensdad. Have you investigated the percentage of people afflicted with dementia that commit suicide? You really should,just to make sure you're in a high risk group,not that you should make fun of this type of thing. But seek help.

[+] -4 points by establishmentsucks (4) 1 year ago

This has already mostly been done by Democrats and Republicans the last 30 years.

Please take your partisan nonsense to a Democrat or Republicans website. This is OWS.