Forum Post: There is nothing we can agree upon.
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 13, 2011, 6:53 p.m. EST by jppt
(82)
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This is the problem.
Public Forum
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There is one thing that we can agree upon: that there is nothing that we can agree upon.
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
Abolish Plutocracy.
Short. Simple. Everyone should agree on it. Yes?
Ok lets take the idea. Get money out of politics. Now lets set up steps to bring this about. Let's see if we can find a step 1 we can agree on.
did you see the 99Percentdeclaration? I can agree with alot of those points.
As for the OP, I think we can all agree that we all disagree, and that if we let it, it will be a problem.
ok let's not let it be a problem ok?
What is the OP?
Original post.
I think we can agree on this:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/enterprise-rent-a-car-murders-children/
The Revolution starts here!
Can we all agree to get money out of politics? To take back our government for the people?
I will agree.
Good. Once we get our government back we can create a fair tax structure, ensure that people earn a living wage, reinstate Glass-Steagall, end corporate personhood, and all-in-all return our government to one that promotes the general welfare of our nation.
by fair tax you mean flat right?
No. I mean one that promotes the general welfare of the citizens of our nation.
like a flat tax?
If we ever get back control of our government for the people we'll have that discussion. I honestly don't know enough about it and I'm sure it is complicated. It would include eliminating loopholes, deductions, etc. and might work, I'm just not sure.
ok, i respect that. i just simply want to say that a flat tax would be most fair if it contained no deductions. then no loophole could exist
Nah, I'm not buying that one. What else you selling?
Why wouldn't you want to get money out of politics? Because you want the plutocracy to continue? Is that it?
Uh, the rape of our constitutional rights--maybe we can start there.
Both seem to go together.
I feel anyplace is a good starting point if it leads us in the direction we all seek.
I think you'd be amazed how much easier it would be if people who lacked intelligence, education and reasoning ability were not part of the solution seeking discussions. Originally, for the first 80 years of the beginning of our nation, it was that way.
Maybe we should stop thinking we are all that bright until we learn the benefits of unity.
Interesting that you speak of unity. When it stopped being as I mentioned, it was because of A Lincoln and his unity forcing war, of which this nation has never paid for, bankrupted twice since, lost our original Democratic Republic and Constitutional Rights, and lost more lives than all wars fought since combined.
He wanted unity at any cost. Well, he got it when he set the stage for the entire world to be sold to bankers. We're all slaves to them, can you not see this?
However, it is not possible to untangle from the debt instruments and restore reasonable order, with anything like a 1:1 direct democracy.
I'm suggesting that establishing baselines of measurable reading, writing and comprehension skill levels will be required. Everything that has been done, and 95% of what will be required to work through it all, is in the written word.
Those who are lacking, are going to have to accept and trust those who prove to not be.
That's why the smartest political minds to ever exist created America as a democratic republic.
Aristotle himself considered direct democracy to be one of the three perverted forms of government.
Aristotle is not the final authority on anything. That way lies damnation.
I'm not saying he is the "final authority". Thats up to God. What i AM saying, is he, and all the forefathers, would WAY smarter than we are and WAY more researched.
That doesn't also mean they weren't wrong. Oppenheimer was well researched and he told Truman after the war that science at last knows sin.
Our republic was not democratic, that's why it's called a republic. It was created by rich white men for rich white men. Rather we are an amalgam of practicing democracies. The rights we (did) enjoy today was the result of the well directed efforts of generations past, like the civil rights movement.
I don't understand what Aristotle's dislike of direct democracy has to do with us. To me it sounds like an argument from authority, which isn't very sound. One may as well build a house upon a body of water.
Aristotle believed in slavery, as did the genocidal "founding fathers." They were assholes. Fuck their political views.
And Fuck Republics. Look at the Roman republic we where modeled after. It degenerated into a decadent plutocracy, kinda like we have.
We need a healthy dose of REAL democracy or we are headed down the same road as Rome.
We are ALREADY down that road because we give our leaders too much centralized power. checks and balances have very nearly been thrown out the window. And slavery isnt wrong or bad. When done fairly, its simply someone performing a job in exchange food and a living area instead of money. When it became bad, is when it become a race issue. Originally it was just for people who lost a war to other people. Then it transformed into a way to resolve debts. Then it got ugly, racial, and brutal. But the original "idea" of slavery was not bad or harmful.
No, its the very idea of slavery that is bad and harmful---even the idealized form of civilized slavery from you historical revisionist imagination.
Liberty is an essential vital aspect of a human being.
Slavery is Murder.
I agree that in our CURRENT society slavery is just wrong. But it is not murder. But in the "good ole days" it was considered more of "indentured servitude" instead of slavery. Which was because of debts. Learn a little about history other than what the liberals teach that everyone is equal and we all deserve to be CEOs. Do some of your OWN thinking.
If you knew anything about indentured servitude or debtors prison you would understand that it is a brutal horrific institution. Moreover, it is not the same thing as chattel slavery which has existed in many forms since ancient times. Human beings have been treated like property--- sold, raped, made to fight with animals in arenas, left to die in the bowels of slave ships, driven in forced labor---- for over ten thousand years.
The "good ole days" weren't so good.
Leaving aside the historical revisionism you have been fed regarding the living conditions of slaves and indentured servants, my disagreement with you is more fundamental.
Regardless of the material conditions that slaves are treated to (and there have been rare slaves who experienced relative material comfort-- without beatings, with adequate food, rest even leisure time.) the very institution itself is fundamentally criminal.
No matter how well the slave is treated, the notion that one person subjects their freedom and will to another is categorically offensive and evil. As a matter of basic ethical principle.
Liberty is an indispensable aspect of a person. Taking that away destroys humanity. It transforms them into an object. It kills a human being.
Slavery is Murder.
I am talking about slavery during the Greek times. Not us enslaving blacks. there was a HUGE difference. All I am saying, is that during the time of Aristotle, slavery was perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, I said I agreed with something Aristotle said, not EVERYTHING he said. To believe in EVERYTHING someone says isn't belief or agreement... its worship.
Consensus doesnt work in the real world.
Seems so.
I would agree with you if you left me and my money alone.
if you got it by fraud we're gonna take it away
and what you didn't get by fraud, if of course you are among the one percent,
we're gonna tax.
I think that is fair.
Who is "we"?
me an' friday
we're gonna tax that ass!
Go drink more.
i don't drink
no drugs either
scary ain't it
Disturbing. Though it would explain much.
Reading post after post after post on here, it would appear like OWS wants to shut down ports, take parks and property. What is your definition of fraud?
yeah-ya.
we're taking parks. And we're not giving them back. well.
they do belong to the people.
and whether you like it or not, they are people
Oh,,, ZenDog has decided how others commit fraud but you take a park that I have paid taxes on,,, my part of the park that tax paying PEOPLE have paid for,,, and suddenly you taking something I helped pay for is not fraud. Interesting how that OWS thingy works.
interesting how repelican ideology works -
any tax benefit becomes their own personal disposable property
fuck you
There are plenty of registered Democrats that agree with the park circuces.
I don't think that is what he said. And are you saying that people that pay taxes ( I suspect that you don't ) are not part of the People?
I think YOU said, "we're taking parks and not giving them back they do belong to the people." They do belong to those that paid their taxes. The city budget has park expenses and revenues from personal property taxes to pay for them. Personal property taxes means that the tax payer owns the parks,,, not people that,,,,, as you say,,,,,, take the parks. You are taking the parks by fraud, which you claim you have some personal law you have created in your own mind.
it isn't fraud
it's called civil disobedience
your way of doing business is done
the repelican party is
DONE
Oh,,,. I would pay zero taxes, create as much wealth any way I can do it using your same civil disobedience. You must respect my way of disobedience,,, I would assume? No,,, bet your way is the only way and nobody else has any freedoms as you do. The republican party is alive and very strong as seen by corporate America along Main street, TV and newspapers. CAPITAL ONE Card????
give it time fool
the repelican party is DONE
global warming is right outside the window of every single American in the country
when it clicks - say byby
Oh geezzzzz. Now the global warming fruit cake crap comes out.
ho rah
mutherfucker
Your POWER TO THE PEOPLE comments are getting fewer and smaller with each post. You are like that child that runs around the room for an hour then lays down and takes a nap. DONE,,, you say? Gooo gooooo gaaaaa gaaaaa. DONE is probably what you say after you fill your diapers.
yeah-ya
what's that?
wha'd ya say?
oh
it's you
piss off
More importantly, they belong to the 99% ZenDog claims to be fighting for.
I cant figure their math. Something new. I'm not 1% and dont believe in the 99%. 99 plus 1 is 100%. Yet they claim MOST of the people on here are trolls. If most are troll then how did they do the 99% math part. Most are trolls, they claim. Where are the 99% people?
I have , hope you and your money are happy together.
Who's we?
We would be the people who come to this forum and post.
You think this is a mess? Go to a GA.
Indeed there is no lack of examples of our ability to disagree with each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-3hZsXrxaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/