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Forum Post: There has Never been a Revolution that Endorses the Status Quo

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 21, 2012, 6:52 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Listen, you go and vote for who you want. Obama, whatever. Romney, whatever. Must keep Romney out, whatever. Must vote ABO, whatever.

All the energy wasted on political sites could be used to create new options. New parties. New solutions. You could be having a major impact on your local area, a total rethinking of what is right, and what is reality. Instead, you are simply following the example of the establishment. Vote on fear. Allow fear to keep you paralyzed.

This is bullshit. This is not what is needed. This is the exact opposite of what is needed. We dont need more people saying "Vote A or we get B" A and B are poison! How could you endorse either? And simply casting a vote is the bare minimum of activity.

We need leaders. We need people who are willing to get up, in front of people, put their ideas and plans out there, and be willing to withstand the criticizm of the media. The outright lies that will follow. Be willing to say fuck it, Im mad as hell and Im not going to take it anymore.

Where are those people? There are a few here. Where are the rest of em?

111 Comments

111 Comments


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[-] 4 points by Skippy2 (485) 1 year ago

hchc is right(again). We need to be honest with ourselves and vote the way we want. I was a life long Dem and union member. I followed the paty line and what did I get? A better nation? Nope. Better economy? Nope. More wars? Yep. I changed my party affiliation to Independant. I quit my union because the union leaders were in the Dem pocket. I am a slave to no party. Set yourself free, vote independant across the board.

[-] 2 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

what type of union

[-] 1 points by Skippy2 (485) 1 year ago

Public employee

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

o ok just wanted to check i know some are harder to leave than others

[-] 2 points by Skippy2 (485) 1 year ago

Wasn't easy. Had to demand "proper forms" and make threat to call lawyer. Real glad I did it

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

good what do you do now or are you still work where you work

Ive heard horror stories

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

Unless you can change the system in a dramatic way (and you won't) this country is stuck with 2-party probably indefinitely. I don't support 2-party. I support a parlimentary form of government like most of the rest of the free world, where all parties are represented in the legislature proportionally, and the Prime Minister is not independent of that legislature and is therefore accountable to carry out the will of the people via that body.

I voted for Ross Perot. He got 19% of the popular vote, but how many electorial votes did he get? Yep, you guessed it...zero, nada, zilch. That's because there is no mandate that requires the electorial college (which actually confirms the election of the president elect) to vote according to the popular vote. Although they usually do vote in accordance with the people, there is absolutely nothing to prevent them from voting a president into office that the majority of the people do not want. How strange is that? Very strange!!! Talk about a need for election reform...geez!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

And around and around we go, further down the toilet.

France just banned GMO because of tumors in tests. Good thing we have the FDA....oh wait, our corrupted leaders have destroyed that one too.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18279) 1 year ago

"Don’t Vote for Evil", by Paul Craig Roberts :

"Why Not Vote For Stein, Goode Or Johnson ? Third-Party Candidates Could Spell Trouble for Obama, Romney", by William Callahan : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32771.htm .

"Third-party candidates Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode, Jr., and Jill Stein are running for president and will appear on some ballots in November."

multum in parvo ...

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Theres a few here that equate someone participating in democracy as a Romney supporter...thats fucked up....thats the shit that oligarchs are built on...

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (18279) 1 year ago

WTF has Romoney got to do with "democracy" ?!

"The Lame Rules for Presidential Debates : A Perfect Microcosm of US Democracy" :

"Secret collusion between the two parties, funded by corporations, run by lobbyists : all the ingredients are there."

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Im not sure. I guess we are at a point of patheticness (is that a word?) where we need to choose less bombs over more bombs....thats really fucked up.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (18279) 1 year ago

"Chase The Devil" ( Original ) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uijFctBM47M ;-)

I'm not being flippant - just a wee bit whimsical because it's "really fucked up" !!

spero meliora ...

[-] 2 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

How about BEING SMART ENOUGH to realize and engage the political world we live in?

Do you know who the number one biggest supporters of Third Party Voting is??? The 1% and their RepubliCon Cult!!!

WTFU jackoffs! Another 8 years of RepubliCon Rule will take two decades to reset!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Hey clown, here's the view of the site you are currently posting on-

"Indeed this is a reminder that, as we close in to the 2012 elections, All Roads Lead to Wall Street. Heads they win, tails we lose; whoever wins the presidency there will be a victory party at Goldman Sachs."

"Just days after one of his puppet Presidential candidates wins the Presidency, the People will gather outside the front gate of Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein's (aka Lord Blankcheck) not-so-humble abode."

This is straight off the site. "News". Why dont you take your pro establishment, naive nonsense somewhere else.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Wow....

[-] 1 points by WSmith (4187) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

WU !

[-] 2 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

good post and i will vote who i want to

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

The best way to start a party is to start small scale with local governments and congressman. If people then see third parties winning in these types of elections they will be inspired to vote more towards there own feelings. If people actually voted for their ideals we would have a much better country.

So yes a third party wont win the Presidential election yet yet. That doesn't mean that we can have them for our local government and state government. So vote small to aim big.

[-] 1 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

My conscience tells me that the racist rabid right needs to be defeated in this real, actual, concrete battle the outcome of which is going to have real live consequences for real live people.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

So do you support the Ron Paul and Gary Johnson campaigners, since it will help your chances of getting Obama into office?

[-] 0 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I'd say it is better that "libertaryans" vote for someone other than Romney, of course.

[-] 0 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

This guy HC is a right wing extremist who protects republican politicians and anti abortion religious wackos! He is a republican plant!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Im a right wing extremist? You sound like all the conservatives that say Im a "libtard" who is only looking for handout. So predictable.

You establishment, media zombies are all the same.

Label, shove in a corner, and marginalize. There are no individuals with you guys, its how you were trained.

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

Right. But you did defend the religious wacko anti abortion extremist, And you did leave out the vaste majority of republican votes for indefinite detention and went ballistic over the few Democratic votes. So you are a republican plant. I told you not to respond to me didn't I. I don't want to talk with a lying right wing piece of shit. Don't make me tell you again!

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

So you want to discuss Republicans backing shit like indef Detention?

I guess I hold the peopleI voted for accountable. Why do you give them a pass? Ofcourse Republicans did that. THats what they do. Why do you think I didnt vote for any? Duh.

Just because you get played by the media, doesnt mean....eh fuck it. Have fun chasing people who actually do shit on here, I see you already decided to attack odin.

Every person is their own person. Get over yourself. Just because you are lustful for more war doesnt mean everyone is haha.

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

You vote for republicans! You never voted for a democrat in your lying life. So fuck you again. You attack democrats an defend republicans. That is the only evidence needed. Odin is a friend of yours? and Daniel I see as well, So then they are republican plants also?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Wow....man is this country fucked.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34992) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

At this very point in time - the world is pretty well fucked.

Time and long past time for the common individual to stand together.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 1 year ago

Voting has nothing to do with revolution. The mere fact of stepping into a voting booth already conforms to the status quo. Sure, I'll vote, and it might be for A or B. But I know enough to realize real revolutions are made in the street.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Bingo. Voting is but one hour of work every two to four years.

[-] -1 points by Postman0917 (-46) 1 year ago

Voting for a corrupt system has nothing to do with revolution, I agree.

But True Democracy...IS the revolution and has Everything to do with "what it will take" to gain control over our lives and to put the power into our hands, where it belongs.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 1 year ago

Sure, but what will it take to get it there? Certainly more than a few minutes picking at a chad.

[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 1 year ago

well said.

The only difference between Romney and Obama is that they will run the country into the ground at a slightly different rate. But, the final destination is the exact same place.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Why is it democrats and republicans blame third party voters for their candidate losing...

But they say it's not their fault for being at war when their candidates are the people sending us to war and bombing countries?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Quite the conundrum eh?

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

I just got told I was hopeless by this girl I know because I told her about how horrible the drone strikes are.

She told me I didn't know anything and the drone strikes are working.

I told her she sounded like a Bush supporter responding to me when i tried telling them how terrible the Iraq war was.

That quote I posted on here earlier was insanely accurate.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

haha, Im sure that went over well :)

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

It was somehow worse than chatting with VQ. She was more absurd, lacked facts, and I actually know her.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Nothing can be worse than that.

[-] 0 points by Postman0917 (-46) 1 year ago

“This is bullshit. This is not what is needed. This is the exact opposite of what is needed. We dont need more people saying "Vote A or we get B" A and B are poison! How could you endorse either?”

Exactly! Anyone who does not understand by now that our corporate-owned 2party system is a fake-democracy, rigged against us in favor of the Top 1% (in my opinion) is completely clueless to what is really going on and to what our Revolution is (or at least should be) all about: Resistance! -not compliance with a failed corrupt system. Even those who totally understand that the 2party system is totally corrupt still feel “obligated” to keep it up and running strong by continuing to play along with it and to “choose between the lesser of 2evils”. Why? It’s like they have Stockholm Syndrome. This corrupt 2party-fake-democracy can only continue if people keep voting for it and that’s exactly what most “voters” keep doing, as if we don’t have any other choice, as if they see no other option but to continue being “Dangerously Retarded”. The cat is out of the bag already! Wake Up People!

"With the quadrennial presidential election extravaganza reaching its peak, it's useful to ask how the political campaigns are dealing with the most crucial issues we face. The simple answer is: badly, or not at all. If so, some important questions arise: why, and what can we do about it?

There are two issues of overwhelming significance, because the fate of the species is at stake: environmental disaster, and nuclear war. (...)"

"So there are differences between the parties: about how enthusiastically the lemmings should march toward the cliff. (...)"

http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/noam-chomsky-fate-humanity-stake-why-are-romney-and-obama-too-cowardly-talk-about-what

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

I would like to know what you think can be realistically done about our 2-party system. I can tell you from experience that voting 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. party will NOT be effective. I hate 2-party as much as anyone else. But truly, realistically, what can be done about it? It would require a true, bloody, violent revolution of the government to change the super-entrenched status quo that is controlled by the power-elite of this nation (regardless of party affiliation... that doesn't really have anything to do with it), and there is absolutely no way that is going to happen.

So what's it gonna be? True violent revolution? Status quo grumbling? People preach big brave sermons, but in the end, I have heard NO effective plan of action put forward. Rather, most of what I read about is venting of anger with no real idea about how to bring the "revolution" to reality.

Voting is THE only thing the common man/woman has. The power-elite has money, power, connections, and everything else. Not voting means you give up the ONLY thing you have, as meager as it is. Voting is the great equalizer, because you can be dirt poor or filthy rich and each vote counts the same. When you consider just how much the deck is stacked against Joe/Josephine Six-pack, why would you want to give up the ONLY power he/she has? How much sense does that make?

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I am an optimist, but realize that by being so, does not make my point of view any more valid than yours. "Voting is [not] THE only thing the common man/woman has." We also have the vast numbers, and the ability to learn what has been going on in this country for the last thirty plus years. In these years, people have become dis-empowered, perhaps unlike any other time in the twentieth century anyway. My point is that this period that we are now living in is an anomaly, not what was common before, beginning with worker rights issues in the early 20th century, the Suffrage movement, the Civil Rights movement, and possibly ending with the Viet Nam protests in this country. All of these movements, and more in different countries throughout the world including Norway, Sweden, Iceland, and India have resulted in positive change, and for the most part, they were free of violence. As shadz66 pointed out in a recent comment, "courage becomes contagious." When we reach the point that enough people feel empowered, we will then start to see the sea change that we so desperately need., not before.

The most recent struggle in North America is the one that took place in Montreal, and throughout Quebec concerning the proposed tuition hikes, and the draconian Bill 78 which severely limited people's rights. This struggle which saw tens of thousands...hundreds of thousands of people in the streets for four months resulted in the tuition hikes being scrapped, and the repeal of Bill 78. Do you think we could learn from their defiance?

So what did it take for this positive change to happen. It took a grass-roots movement of organizing, education, collaboration, and Solidarity, but most of all it took courage.

Unlike any time since the Viet Nam war protests, i have witnessed a whole new young generation awaken and nudging the older generations to arise too. At the risk of sounding overly sentimental it has been very heartening for me to see. Their energy, and determination is incredible.

I would not be honest, if I didn't say that I wish we were further along with our struggle, but we must persevere, as the alternative is totally unacceptable. This won't be easy, I know, but in life, things that are the really worth it seldom are. To put it simply, some things in life are worth fighting for, and this is definitely one of them, at least for me anyway.

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

You make good points Odin. Yes, the people must continue to fight against oppression. There has always been oppression to one degree or another, and there has always been resistance to oppression to one degree or another. I don't really know what to realistically do about 2-party. All I know is that the way things are now, voting 3rd party drains votes away from needed votes for whatever progressive candidates might be available. If we can get enough progressive people elected, and keep them there through several election cycles, then maybe if we are very lucky we might have a chance of getting some of the reforms we so desperately need passed into law, and that would include greater representation in government by 3rd, 4th, 5th party politicians. We need a parlimentary form of government in this country...not the 2-party system. But you can't get there yet by voting 3rd party now. In fact, that strategy will likely allow conservatives to regain total control, and then we are totally screwed.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

As i have asked VQkag, where are these progressives? Other than a few perhaps, most of them are wolves dressed in sheep/progressive clothing. That fact is what helped get us 'here', and we can deduce from that, the democratic party itself has been corrupted. Witness, we now have a dem President who is arguably right of Reagan. To continue to legitimize this corruption is crazy in my opinion.

Imagine if we had NOT listened to the rationale, thirty years ago, that you were wasting your vote if you voted third party, we might well have had a strong third or even fourth party today that was not corrupted. I am not fond of anyone telling me who to vote for, and i would not tell you. So do what you feel is right. Just for your interest though, i went Green in my absentee vote that i have already cast. I felt sad doing so because as you may remember, i attended Obama's inauguration on that cold January day in DC. This is not what I expected as you can imagine.

This comes down to, what is the most efficacious way to move this struggle forward. You believe that it is through the electoral process, I don't. Wresting control away from the people, and having corporate and banking interests take it over has now become an entrenched plutocracy. They have a LOT to lose. We may be able to slow down the continuing onslaught of this system at the voting booth, but to me, it is just once again legitimizing this system. The latter, being worse than the former which will be futile. Systemic change, will not happen through the voting booth any time soon.

I know that it is unsettling (for me too), to say the least, to think that we have to get out in the streets to affect the sea change that we need. Look at Montreal, and many other cities in Quebec. It is a wonderful example of 'courage begetting courage.' Oh how i admire them! Those direct actions combined with a grassroots movement.....resistance of every stripe....connecting/collaborating with OWS affinity groups and groups who have been working for social and economic change for years ...... educating ....and reaching out to the unaware is what we need to do. And yes some people should work within the political system, but it is paramount that OWS stay outside of it. As I have said in another comment, 'radicals and reformers have a long history of working well together,' as witnessed by Roosevelt's New Deal, early 20th century worker's movements, etc.

There is no doubt as this movement started to pick up steam, that positive incremental changes will come from within the system in an attempt to stave off systemic change, and I could care less who took credit for it, but once again systemic change will never come through the political process alone.

We have a choice: We can choose to settle for piece-meal advancements in laws, which after the lobbyists (these guys work hard, I know as I have one in my extended family) get through with them will be BS, or we can persevere, and go for a sea change in the way our political and financial institutions are run. For my granddaughters sake, I will choose the latter.

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Buttercup (1067) 1 year ago

I think alot of the moderate Dems were sipping too much of the right wing koolaid. So yeah. They helped get us here.

Is our Pres. right of Reagan? Hmmm. I think not. Is much of the country right of Reagan. Hell yeah.

Systematic change will not happen through the voting booth any time soon. That's true. Major change always takes time. It's taken the plutocrats 40-50 years to get where they are today. So we'll all need to be in it for the long haul. Someone else had the idea that those who are ideologically opposed to voting for Pres. Obama/legitimizing the system that are in 'safely' Obama States - should vote third party. And those in swing states or red states should vote for Pres. Obama. I actually think this is pretty smart. It would help secure the short term from the frightening prospect of a world run by The Vulture who, like Bush Jr., would be led like a dog on a leash by the neocons, and the thouroughly insane Eddie Munster look alike who worships Ayn Rand and would try to reduce the debt on the backs of the poor and working poor. Quite honestly, The Vulture and Eddie Munster and just too terrifying. They're fine for Halloween. But not for running the country.

Radicals are great. So long as they recognize that keeping any movement relevant is going to require support from those that are less radical. Being radical all by one's lonesome is not going to affect much change. Change will take massive effort. Any movement will have to balance the radical with the less, or risk irrelevance. If people won't meet you where you are, sometimes you have to meet them where there are. Or somewhere in between.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The problem being.... that "right wing koolaid" is being supplied by the same 'dealer,' and it is addictive. One of the reasons Roosevelt got what he, and most of the people wanted was because there were radicals waiting in the wings. At the risk of losing capitalism, the corrupt elite were willing to settle for the sea change most people wanted. At some point the interests of the radicals, and the reformers in this struggle will undoubtedly diverge, but until then we need each other if we want systemic change.

[-] 2 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

What th fuck are you babbling about? And what the fuck is Odin? You think your a god? lol. So you agree "some people should work within the political system" Great, you're so generous. And OWS should remain outside.? Do you think maybe it might be good to work with those inside people who are working for the same thing the outsider OWS is working for.?

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You will never get accused of "babbling' when you don't say anything VQkag..err i mean 99. lol

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

^just doesnt get it. Go to your local Dem campaign center and get involved then, no one is stopping you.

Have you ever even BEEN to your local Dem headquarters? Im not talking about Obama satellite offices (funded by all the corporations we hate), Im talking about the headquarters?

STop trying to change OWS and start doing something on your own. Otherwise you are doing no one any good, including OWS, the Dem party, or yourself.

[-] -1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

Fuck you. You republican plant! Complaining about democrats again and nothing about your republican paymasters.?

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

"You republican plant!" Errr....are you related to VQkag? lol

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

HcHc hates Republicans he hates both parties so watch who you are calling a plant

[-] -1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

How do you know. Is he a friend of yours.?

[-] 2 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

He want the same things as i do out of government so i consider him an Ally

[-] 0 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

Then I guess you also defend anti abortion religious extremists trying to stab abortion suporters? And I guess you don't care about the republicans who voted for indefinite detention, but scream about the few Democrats who have. If so that makes the same as your republican plant 'ally'.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

no not at all your inferring things that have no evidence obviously you suck the cock of the democratic donkey and refuse to have a real conversation

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Not everyone jumps the gun and starts labeling people like they work for MSNBC or FOX.

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

But you did defend the anti abortion, and forget to list the republicans who wrote and passed the indefinite detention law. What gun jumping? that is real evidence. You're a motherfuckin republican plant! There is no other explaination.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I think the prolife guy deserved to get his ass kicked, if he did push that guy's daughter. But if the prolife guy was attacked and getting his ass kicked, and defended himself by stabbing the guy, then the courts will rule in self defense.

This isnt my view, this is the courts view. Kind of the law of the land.

ARe you defending the ability for anyone to go up to anyone and just start kicking their ass? Proabably not, due to your mouth on here, Im guessing you dont act like that in real life. Maybe you should. Go find some anti abortion rallies, go up to them, and attack them. See what the cops do to you.

It will probably be your first run in with police, so a word of advive- it will be over soon. Dont start crying, its really embarrassing.

Are you telling me you would just lie there? Eh, actually you probably would haha.

agree with him or not, the 1st amendment is there for a reason. Dont turn into the people you claim to be protesting against.

[-] 1 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

If an anti abortion right wing religious wacko attacked my daughter I WOULD at the very least beat him bloody. At Most I would end his sorry intolerant, ignorant life, AND I would get off in "the courts view" So fuck you for defending the anti women right wing wacko.

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

My thought are no more 'generous' than yours, and no i do not believe that i am a pagan god. It is where OWS focuses its attention and the part that we play in the sea change that most of us want, is what the issue is. This is a forum where people express themselves. Fair enough, you don't agree with me, but please explain what you think we should do, and try not to "fucking" blather away as you just did.

[-] 2 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

answer the question! Do you think that as OWS stays outside and we support those fighting inside we should work with those fighting for reform inside.?

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

No, I do not think OWS should get involved with the political system at all. I believe we should work from outside this polluted system.

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Come one man, lets join the system that is destroying the world!!!

100+ years of D/R corruption, but Im sure we can change em!! More votes will surely send a message!!

After that, lets get the mob to give up their ways and join the PeaceCorp!!!!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

By nature, i am too recalcitrant, thus i would be reluctant to take on your sarcastic challenge. That trait combined the knowledge i have makes it impossible ;-)

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

^can't think outside the establishment box haha....

[-] 0 points by 99nproud (1877) 1 year ago

HCHC is a Romney supporter who is here being paid by the Kochs to attack Democrats and defend republicans. Fuckin traitor.

[-] 3 points by andover4 (-33) 1 year ago

how do know anything about hchc? and by the way,..............democrats ( obama in particular) and msm are traitors to america.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

First, I am not telling anyone how to vote just because I express my opinion about 3rd party. Under normal circumstances, I actually do not really speak up about 3rd party at all. But in this particular election, I don't think we have normal circumstances. The two primary candidates represent opposite ends of an ideological spectrum, and in all the years that I have been voting, I cannot remember someone like Romney emerging on the national political stage as a serious candidate for POTUS. But such a man has arrived on that stage. The quentissential oligarchic plutocrat who would do the bidding of his super-rich billionaire buddies to the exculsion of the desires of the common man. So, yes, in this particular election I advocate keeping such a man out of office by any legal means possible, and that means advocating (this time) that every single precious vote go to Obama in this very, very tight election.

I understand what you are saying. Were these less perilous times, and were the rightwing religious funda-mental wackos tucked away in their churches instead of becoming the political force that they have become, with their dangerous fanatical attempt to subvert freedom and replace it with a Theocracy, I would be silent about 3rd party.

I understand what you are saying. Were these less perilous times, and were the rightwing plutocratic overloads and power-elite maniacs who are attempting to buy the United States out from under the common man/woman not a serious threat to democracy, with their obvious agenda to place wealth in a supreme position of influence and control over all aspects of politics and government, I would be silent about 3rd party.

But these are not those times. This country and its freedoms are under attack, every bit as real as an actual military invasion, by those who believe, advocate, and endorse Theocracy and Plutocracy. They are the ENEMY of the common man/woman, and they must be oppossed by any means possible.

I don't know if in 4 years there would be a less radical conservative front-runner emerge who might be considered less dangerous than Romney (assuming for argument that Romney doesn't win). If the candidates were more centrist than far-right, it would be much easier to advocate 3rd party. But the conservatives have moved extreme right thanks to the TP nutjobs and radical religious political organizations that want to put a surrogate Jesus in the White House, and thus all conservative candidates must seek to at least appear in agreement with their extremist nazi desires if they want to get elected. So American politics has entered a new and dangerous era when sanity has been thrown out the window in exchange for extremist fanatics who have the numbers, dollars, and power to put their insanity into actual political practice and elect religious and financial puppets of insane ideologies.

I am seeing this first-hand in Florida where the legislature has put 11 proposed state-constitutional amendments on the ballot having to do with anti-abortion, anti-tax, and anti-church/state seperation. The wall of church/state seperation is crumbling rapidly in this country thanks to the fanaticism of the conservatives and the apathy/inability of liberals to defend that seperation. We have embarked on a dangerous path in this country, a path that could see history repeat itself as the Church rises into political power and merges with secular government and imposes its intolerance over free-thinking men and women everywhere. It doesn't matter if the history books are replete with examples where that has happened before. It doesn't matter if you can look at countries today where religion and government has merged (like in Iran and other Muslim-dominated countries). It doesn't matter if the intelligensia can provide indisputable proof of the danger that exists. All that matters to the religious far-out-right is their cause and their "holy mission", because they think that "god" is commanding them to do this...and there is NOTHING more dangerous than a fanatic who thinks he/she is carrying out "God's will"...NOTHING. The Inquisition proved that. The Crusades proved that.

So yes, this time, I consider it crucial that every vote possible goes to defeating Romney. He is dangerous on multiple levels of insanity, and those who would elect him are dangerous on multiple levels of mental disorder.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

It has to happen at sometime, at some place. Independent registrations are outpacing D and R. Many have left the right, and many are rightly leaving the left.

OWS showed how progressives and libertarians, viewed as the extremes, can work together to tackle the HUGE issues that are destroying the planet.

The right is telling the same thing to the RP and GJ supporters-n your leaving us will help the enemy.

The country needs people willing to do different things, not follow in footsteps.

[-] -2 points by Postman0917 (-46) 1 year ago

“I would like to know what you think can be realistically done about our 2-party system.” -Underdog

Stop Supporting It And Stop Voting For It and (if most voters do that) it will lose all of its power and cease to exist as a dominant force against us. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=the+power+of+the+people&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1344&bih=710&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsz&tbnid=716rtFGqE5oH2M:&imgrefurl=http://www.ragetrolling.com/Power-of-the-people&docid=-3gQWMSjoSGPoM&imgurl=http://www.ragetrolling.com/var/albums/Power%252520of%252520the%252520people.jpg%253Fm%253D1330454835&w=460&h=458&ei=3gGHUKriBuOQ2QWg3oCgAw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=1&sig=110243366488763460017&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=138&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:71&tx=84&ty=89

It’s not that difficult of a concept to understand, really. If someone walked up to you, munching on a dog turd and complaining about how nasty and terrible it tasted and then looked at you with a straight face and asked you what can be done about it?…wouldn’t the solution to this shit-eater’s problem be obvious? lol Wouldn’t you feel the need to say something like: “Duh! Stop eating dog shit! -you dumb, nasty mother-fucker! lol

“I can tell you from experience that voting 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. party will NOT be effective.” -Underdog

Voting outside the 2party system is THE ONLY effective way to elect anyone outside of the 2party system. It’s not that hard really, it’s just common sense and simple math. If the majority of voting Americans continue voting for the 2 party system = we get the continuation of the 2party system. If the majority of voting Americans vote 3rd party = we get a 3rd party President. Etc., etc. Whatever the majority of American voters vote for, we get. See how it works? :-)

Of course if only a small percentage of American voters continue to vote outside the 2party system, it’s true that it will not be effective in dismantling the 2party system power structure. But that’s never been my point and I would never claim anything otherwise.

“I hate 2-party as much as anyone else. But truly, realistically, what can be done about it?” -Underdog

I can only show you the door, it’s up to everyone else to walk through it. I’ve been as “realistic” as I possibly can here. It will take a tipping point majority, this is true, and I believe we are coming closer and closer to that as more and more people are waking up to the fact that we live in a fake-democracy that has been hi-jacked on practically every level by the corporate elite. Our so called “politicians” (of the rigged 2party system) are not much more than money-owned puppets of the Top 1%. They have betrayed and continue to betray their own duty and their own honor. They have (in a metaphorical sense) sold their soul to The Devil. They have betrayed and continue to betray The Constitution of The United States. And they have betrayed and continue to betray The American People. And they expect us to keep “voting” for them?? What do they think we are? -Dangerously Retarded?? Actually, yes, that’s exactly what they depend on. They totally depend on American “voters” remaining gullible, duped, propagandized and brainwashed into supporting the status quo and the Top 1%.

“It would require a true, bloody, violent revolution of the government to change the super-entrenched status quo that is controlled by the power-elite of this nation (regardless of party affiliation... that doesn't really have anything to do with it), and there is absolutely no way that is going to happen. So what's it gonna be? True violent revolution? Status quo grumbling? People preach big brave sermons, but in the end, I have heard NO effective plan of action put forward. Rather, most of what I read about is venting of anger with no real idea about how to bring the "revolution" to reality.” -Underdog

Violence is certainly NOT the answer. And the way you put that dumb-ass ultimatum makes me question your motive here. This is a Non-Violent Revolution of ideas, a Revolution of the mind and of the heart. Your mentality there is strikingly similar to the dumb-ass mentality of our war-mongering politicians, brainwashed into thinking war and violence is the only way to solve problems. My first advice to you personally is to un-condition yourself from that mentality. Of course we are all frustrated here. Of course there is a lot of status quo grumbling and sermons. Of course there is a lot of venting anger. THERE SHOULD BE! And I’m glad there is! Because it means that People ARE WAKING UP! And that’s exactly what needs to continue happening.

I understand your frustration, you want to see instant results, but this ain’t no McDonald’s drive-through window, man, it don’t work like that. But let me tell you something, The Revolution Is Already Here, It’s Already A Reality And We‘re Just Getting Started.

“Voting is THE only thing the common man/woman has. The power-elite has money, power, connections, and everything else. Not voting means you give up the ONLY thing you have, as meager as it is. Voting is the great equalizer, because you can be dirt poor or filthy rich and each vote counts the same. When you consider just how much the deck is stacked against Joe/Josephine Six-pack, why would you want to give up the ONLY power he/she has? How much sense does that make?” -Underdog

Bullshit. #1 Voting for the corrupt 2party system is NOT by any means the only “power” we have. In fact, voting is not even any power at all, unless we vote OUTSIDE of the corrupt 2party system for 3rd parties, etc. who are not corporate-owned, who actually represent us.

2 Even voting for 3rd parties, etc. is also NOT by any means the only “power” we have.

WE THE PEOPLE have a lot more power than you may realize. Who do you think does practically ALL of THE WORK in this country? Who do you think makes this economy function? ALL of those billions upon billions of dollars that make up the ridiculous Wealth of the Top 1% -where do you think ALL of that money came from?
I will leave you with this, when it comes to voting and democracy, WE do have a powerful Ace in the hole that could turn everything around and put the power where it belongs into the hands of THE PEOPLE. #1 Traditionally, Most Americans Do Not Vote Because Many Are Disgusted With Crooked Politics And They Understand That The System Is Rigged Against Us. #2 Most Poor People Do Not Vote. #3 Americans Who Do Vote Only Represent “A Minority” And They Only Make Up A Small Percentage of THE PEOPLE of This Country, Mostly The Rich and Part of the Middle-Class. #4 HALF of THE PEOPLE In America Are Either Poor Or Near Poor. #5 America Has Never Been A True Democracy, (A Direct Democracy) That Would Give US, THE PEOPLE, THE REAL POWER To Vote On The Actual ISSUES That Matter Most In Our Lives (As Opposed To Our Current “Representative Democracy“ Where Our People Power Is Extremely Limited, Where We Are Totally Dependant On Electing Politicians To Decide Everything For Us). In A Direct Democracy, Our PEOPLE POWER Would No Longer Be Stifled And Limited To Electoral Politics And WE Would No Longer Be Totally Dependant Upon (And At The Mercy Of) Politicians. In A Direct Democracy WE, THE PEOPLE, Would (For The First Time In History) Have THE POWER To Effect Real Change And To Govern Our Own Lives And To Improve Our Own World.

You Do The Math :-)

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

You do this math.

I have voted 3rd party before. Specifically, I voted for Ross Perot. He got 19% of the popular vote. You know how many electorial votes he got? That's right...zero, zip, nada, zilch. The electorial college system actually elects the president. Most of the time they vote in accordance with the popular vote. But they are not required to do so. So the whole thing is rigged.

I am not an advocate of violence either, and I would never advocatie OWS become a violent movement. But I have lived pretty long now (57 years) and I have seen enough to know how the world works, and most revolutions are NOT peaceful. You are either idealistic or naive (or both) if you think that this country is going to move much in any direction by voting 3rd party. Perhaps in a few decades, maybe. Just depends on how bad things get and how politically active the general population gets. But the vast majority of the US population doesn't follow politics, are not up on the issues, and are not really interested in getting involved because they are just too busy with their hectic lives, come home exhausted, turn on the idiot box, and try to heal their brain damage from their terrible day. So until they get the energy to actually get up off the couch and actually do something, you are living a fantasy dream.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (34992) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Down with the electoral college - it is UN-democratic.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

Agreed. Why does it still exist? Why are we still shackled to a system so old and unresponsive to modern-day needs?

So very many problems with our country. It almost blows your mind when you really stop to think about it.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34992) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is because the people have never gotten involved with the running of "THEIR" government. The people have let shitheels run the show and given them minimal interference. Time has come for that to change.

[-] 1 points by Postman0917 (-46) 1 year ago

No! “You” do the math! lol I’m just kidding, if you seriously don’t understand the point I was trying to make there, I will help explain it more for you. But when you ignore almost everything I just said, it makes it difficult to continue responding when it feels like I’m talking to a brick wall. What’s the point?

I’ve already stated that voting 3rd party will not solve all of our problems, I only said that it is the ONLY solution to the problem of our corrupt 2party system. Big difference.

I totally agree about the electoral college, it needs to be abolished.

As far as living in a “fantasy dream”, Yeah, I’m a dreamer, I dream of a much better world and a much better life for all Americans. And I feel like that’s a GOOD thing to do. Don’t you?

You make a good point that “the vast majority of the US population doesn't follow politics, are not up on the issues, and are not really interested in getting involved because they are just too busy with their hectic lives, come home exhausted, turn on the idiot box, and try to heal their brain damage from their terrible day.”

And you say that we should get off the couch and “do” something.. What would you have everyone do? What are your solutions to our problems?

Its frustrating to know what needs to be done and the only thing lacking is for enough people to become organized and to do it. And I think that’s what #OWS is all about, figuring out what needs to be done and then organizing and doing it.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 1 year ago

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." ~ John Lennon

I'm not saying that we shouldn't aspire to greater things. We should. But life has taught me some hard lessons, and one of those is that you have to start with what you have. So I am a lot more pragmatic than I used to be. I have still retained my ideals, but I no longer advocate impractical solutions to problems. I believe that, up to a certain point, the ends justify the means (there is a line however where such becomes destructive). What I'm saying is that dreams are useless unless there is/are solution(s) that have potential for practical implementation.

What would I do to get people off the couch? Well, if I were god and could take complete control of everthing I would do some things that OWS would never agree to:

1) Create formal leadership within Occupy that could be focal point for media and current political system to interface with in order to clarify position(s) on issues of concern to Occupy and to negotiate demands through representation, which leads to my next god-miracle...

2) Organize Occupy into formal political organization with party platform and establish goals (both short-term and long) to work on. Protest aspect of the movement should continue, and in fact, ways to increase the protests should be explored and implemented if possible to regain media exposure and rebuild awareness to core Occupy mission (i.e. Institutionalized greed and corruption in corporations and banking sector)

3) Miracle #3 would be to greatly expand Occupy funding into millions of $ to be spent on development and broadcast of media TV/radio commercials similar to the "Truth" anti-smoking ads that run as public-service announcements. In general, the greatest media exposure possible broadcast into millions of homes for years at a time in order to raise national awareness would be required to get the masses at least interested in getting "off the couch" if not actually succeeding in getting them off of it and joining in the cause. And this would lead to my last miracle...

4) Millions of people committing to at least bare-minimum participation (that comes about through #3 above) through on-line petitions for change in government and, also voting into office Occupy politicians as per 1 and 2 above. Commitment from the "anti-1%" to participate in "1% of the 100%" (about 3 million people) to march on Washington D.C. and Occupy it on a more-or-less continuous basis until demands are met. Such a large assemblage of people could not be easily dispersed except through police/military violence, and this would send a strong message around the world. Even if there were no violence, such a large number continuously occupying D.C. would send a strong message worldwide that the elite-controlled media could not ignore (even if they did ignore it, alternative Internet media would ensure its coverage worldwide).

It's probably a good thing that I am not god, right? :-)

[-] 2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

If you want OWS to be an anti-consumer movement you need artists. Just say the word and it will be done. If you want it to be the lost puppy of the democratic party then good luck.

[-] 0 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 1 year ago

So, my question is...how many revolutionary leaders become the 'STATUS QUO' ?

I put no trust or faith in a mere mortal man whatsoever!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Thats a very good point. Every party and/or person become corrupted eventually, its what power does to humans.

Its why us forcing turnover is so important. No political party should be in office for too long. Much less over 100+ years like our current two. Think about how long that is? How much corruptoin has been built into them by now.

[-] -2 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 1 year ago

Whew! We need jackhammers on that one! LOL!

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Most factual title on the OWS forum right now!

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

“Apparently people don't like the truth, but I do like it; I like it because it upsets a lot of people. If you show them enough times that their arguments are bullshit, then maybe just once, one of them will say, 'Oh! Wait a minute - I was wrong.' I live for that happening. Rare, I assure you”

― Lemmy Kilmister

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Here's some truth but you might not like it.

Those who say "there is no difference" are as guilty as those who vote for Romney.

A third of the people who voted for Nader in New Hampshire could have kept Bush from the White House:

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?f=0&fips=33&year=2000

[-] 3 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

And if you vote obama just because he is the lesser of two evils then you bear responsibility for the corruption overtaking our system. My vote that is based upon my ethics is better then if I voted out of fear of romney.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

What if you vote for Obama because you don't want more Justices like the ones that made CU the law of the land? What if you also feel that all Americans should have health care and that students should not be saddled with over burdensome debt? I would say voting for someone with no chance to win is just some people's way of saying "I don't want to be responsible" and I think we need more responsible citizens not fewer.

[-] 2 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

If you vote obama because you agree with what he did the first term then even if I disagree with the job he did that is still an ethical vote. As for giving up responsibility for voting third party because you think both parties are corrupt I disagree with that. If ou believe in that corruption then your responsibilty is to support the candidate who you think will fight the corruption.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

sure the people who voted for Nader can tell themselves that there was no need to vote for Gore and keep Bush from the White House, that they voted for who they thought was best, but that does nothing about CU, or the Iraq War or the huge debt the tax cut left us and the millions that will suffer because of it, so we all have a choice be truthful that there is huge difference between these two men or tell lies

[-] 2 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

The problem with that is I already voted obama in order to protect civil liberties and I got the NDAA for my troubles. Just because the rep are crazy does not absolve obama oh his responsibility.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Those who think bombing 6 countries is acceptable are fools.

Those who think supporting a system that give unlimited resources to Wall Street is necessary and should not be regulated or have oversight... are fools.

You will not scare me into voting for bombs and Wall Street which both Romney and Obama work for.

Almost 60% of federal discretionary spending is war spending this year.

Joe Biden said Iraq had WMD's and was a threat to the USA before Bush Jr was saying it. Yet you only want me to blame republicans, who do in fact share a large part in the blame as Bush was president and republicans and democrats voted for that war and continually funded it.

This is why I always say THEY both are corrupt.

I've never once said Romney and Obama are the same. I just point at simple facts on issues they do not work for.

Currently home to the world's largest political prisoner system and both Obama and Romney do nothing.

I don't care which is worse... i do not vote for terrible or terribler. I vote for someone who represents me.

You can keep letting their fearmonger campaign compel you into supporting the status quo.

Romney and Obama are the status quo.

There has Never been a Revolution that Endorses the Status Quo

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Fuck ya tell it like it is dude

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The truth is we have never had a clearer choice, those that oppose truth hurt us all.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

The truth is Obama and Romney work for War and Wall Street and the world's largest political prisoner system. Billions are funding their campaigns.

How many trillions in resources have Wall Street received these past 4 years?

We still at War and bombing countries?

Is the prison system still the largest in the world?

Care to argue those facts?

Americans still being spied on?

Indefinite detention laws?

Maybe if you democrats didn't choose a democrat that bombed 6 countries in 4 years and is talking about possibly going to war with iran.... then I'd vote for your democrat.

You are to blame if Romney wins. You should have chosen a candidate that appeals to liberals and not a far right democrat that works for Wall Street and War.

Your fearmonger tactics will not get me to vote for a failing system that murders people in foreign countries.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Those that think it is acceptable to let Romney win the White house get what they deserve, more CU and soon all American women who need procedures the GOP don't like can have the thrill of be thoroughly being examined whither they want it or not, but don't worry Senator Atkins assured us it's not ligament rape.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Romney and Obama = Unlimited resources for Wall Street and war.

You won't fear me into voting for that failed system. Your propaganda has failed and your fearmongering tactics are failing too.

People need to think for themselves and not be feared into voting for the corrupt and feared into supporting wars based on lies.

No revolution has ever happened from endorsing the status quo.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

If Gore had just stayed out of the race we could have had Nader as president.

[-] 1 points by Postman0917 (-46) 1 year ago

What about the idea that you might have a spoiler effect, like Ralph Nader did in 2000?

Jill Stein: If you look at the exit polls, which show in fact what happened on the ground, the fact is that Nader drew equally from Democrats and Republicans, and the vast majority - there was a CNN exit poll if you want to check them the vast majority of the votes came from Ross Perot voters who were independent and would not have otherwise voted because they didn't have anyone to vote for. Thats why 90 million people right now dont have anybody to vote for. So they can spin it that it was Nader, but in fact it was the Supreme Court. And in fact, far more Democrats basically left the Democratic Party to vote for Bush, defected for Bush, then Naders entire vote count. So its a preposterous argument if you actually look at it.

Theres no excuse for telling people to just be patient and wait for the failed policies of Democrats and Republicans. People are at the breaking point. Were going to turn that breaking point into a tipping point. And we are having the one right now with our campaign. There are so many disenfranchised voters who are staying home now. Not the least of them are the 36 million students and recent graduates who are indentured servants to student debt under the policy of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Being an indentured servant is no future at all. And imagine what would happen if word goes viral among the 36 million students in a 90 million-voter race it became three-way race, when 36 million is more than enough to win that race. Were not holding our breath, but were not ruling it out either. We could be at our strongest moment, and if were not there now, we will be soon. So we are here to win this race to win it, but just as much as winning on Election Day, its about reclaiming our political voice. So it is a win-win, no matter how you cut it, by voting green in this election.

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/20/green_party_candidate_jill_stein_90_million_people_have_no_one_to_vote_f

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Sure and there are people that can prove that climate change has nothing to do with people but that don't make it so. Doesn't change the fact that a third of Nader's supporters in New Hampshire could have saved us from Bush and CU, the truth is not always what you want it to be.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17714) 1 year ago

There has never been a revolution that rejected every facet of the status quo either.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8689) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Here let me introduce some truth to this lovefest:

Nader the traitor has crawled under a rock,

It’s the only place safe from the things that he wrot.

As millennia approached us, we had one last shot,

To keep the plant we’re on from getting, too damn hot.

But Nader thought better his name should be heard.

And Gore was left standing with only his word.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Too bad all the Gore voters cost Nader the election.

[-] 4 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

Ha. How dare gore split the progressive vote. And obama is ruining stein's chance.

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Ya exactly. These freaks forget that their flawed view of how democracy is suppose to function can go both ways.

[-] 3 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

What really gets me is the anger directed at the very people who see the corruption and try to get elected to fight it. If they want to vote the corrupt parties back in then fine. Just don't try to pretend you care about the country more then the people fighting the corruption

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Exactly. Campaigning is a long road, and depending on how involved you get, its tough.

Then you've got the Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson campaigners that are working with little to no resources, busting their asses.

And being called traitors by the Republicans and the Democrats. And ya know what? That only proves that what they are doing matters, because that is a sick way to look at people trying to bring in uncorrupted options.

[-] 2 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

And as thecorruption becomes more noticed they will launch the attacks with a focused desperation.

[-] 3 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

Stein is ruining Roseanne's chances so there.....

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 1 year ago

This site is guided by the DNC. Many of the regulars here have worked with Obamas campaign. You are barking up the wrong tree.

[-] -2 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 1 year ago

I didn't.......yet I know to take the lesser of the two evils....

It is a sad state of affairs when man can no longer guide his own destiny!