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Forum Post: the US of A, a failed democracy

Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 29, 2011, 9:34 a.m. EST by wfv (0) from Cape Charles, VA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The US of A A Failed Democracy

Today I saw in a newspaper something that every thinking person knows, but no one actually admits. All of our politic ans are bought and pad paid for. Alas, it was in a letter to the Editor rather than the headline it should be. Your organization calls itself Occupy Wall Street. But to what avail? Do you think that you can shame these people, appeal to their sense of fair play? They have none of that. They are evil incarnate. Their goal in life is only to acquire additional wealth at the expense of the other 99%. If I were religious, I would call them the spawn of the devil. Yes they are the puppet masters pulling the strings attached to our politicians. Not only Washington, but state and local governments all dance to the pull of their strings.

Now, I wonder, why is it that so few are able to openly state this obvious state of affairs? I can only summarize that in admitting it, we are accepting that our democracy is one big scam. It's like cancer and incest was years ago. As if we speak of them, we are somehow opening our lives to them. We do not want to admit that what was once the greatest country on earth has become one great big lie. After all , we all have to live here and nobody wants to think that they are living a lie.

I'm afraid that the lie is getting too big to ignore any longer. For the first time since the great depression, our children can not expect to do better than their parents. Instead of upward mobility our country faces downward mobility and no end in sight. How is it that we have allowed 1% of the population to control 90% of the wealth? Well, our bought and paid for politicians saw to it. What do they care about the rest of us? They will receive their bloated government pensions and surely find positions as lobbyists or in the enterprises of those who bought them in the first place. They will become even wealthier while the rest of us struggle day to day.

I'm not suggesting that our founding fathers did not have the right idea. After all, it worked quite well for a long time. We managed to rise from an obscure little republic to become one of the greatest nations the world has ever known. They did not envision, however, the role money would play in the years to come. Also, they were blessed with honest to goodness Statesman. Men who would rather go down in flames than to go against what they believed. We have not seen a Statesman in many generations much to our demise and if any exist today, they would not sully themselves in our political process.

So there we have it. A failed democracy where the rich get richer, the middle class disappears and the ranks of the poor overflow. And what do our politicians recommend that we do to address the national debt? Why of course, cut Social Security, Veterans benefits, (the same people who risked or gave their lives for these evil people), and keep the tax cuts of the Bush administration for the rich. We will soon resemble South America. We already have one of the most corrupt governments in the world, they just don't take their bribes on the street where they can be seen.

Of course there are many other pressing issues. Our national debt, two wars that have gone on forever, illegal immigration and a drug problem on which we have spent billions to no avail, etc,etc,etc. None of these will ever be addressed in a reasonable way, however, until we fix our broken political system.

What to do? I make no claim to have all the answers. Someone smarter than me needs to lead a crusade to tackle these issues. I suggest that the web might be an answer. Much as our president used the web to garner money and support, perhaps we can do something similar. Locate candidates for office that refuse funding from anywhere except what can be raised from the general population via a multitude of web sites. Fund a web site that examines the funding of our current crop of thieves, their voting records and expose their hypocrisy for what it is. It would require a great many people and a massive amount of research. Most important of all, it would have to be factual and capable of being defended. Any hint of spinning the truth or pure propaganda would undermine the legitimacy of such a site.

I realize that this is not a comprehensive solution worked out in any great detail. Just an idea and a plea for enough concerned people to step forward and work on a comprehensive plan to take back our country.

211 Comments

211 Comments


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[-] 1 points by Bart111 (1) 13 years ago

The past is coming back?

I think America misses Soviet Union. In those good days US had one big enemy to fight and blame it entirely but since Evil Empire abolished they are in a constant search for another one because this is the only thing that guarantee American existence. Today foreign policy failures of Obama’s administration made searches of the White House more intensive what immediately reflected in US media and its anti-Russian publications like Russia is responsible for every American fault. Of course Russia is responsible for failure and continuation of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, creating economical crisis, and for weakening of American influence in the new post-soviet democracies... Sounds like crap... Folks in Washington should ask their political analysts and strategists about numerous failures instead of saying ‘That was Russia! All along it was Russia!’

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The United States of America is a Representative Democracy as Defined by James Madison who coined the term and defined it in Federalist paper number 10 also Noah Webster who included that definition in Websters Dictionary of 1828. This direct evidence should end the false opinions of some.

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 1 points by Uriah (218) 13 years ago

Ah, the USA has NEVER been a democracy, it's a constitutional republic. Seriously. Look it up, but I'm sure it's been pointed out several times already.

[-] 1 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

There are 2 parts to a democracy. The people, and the formation of opinion, then the system that records it. The first part requires information. If it is direct democracy, then the people need the facts on the issues to address. If it is election of representatives, the people need to hear how the representatives will see that their actions conform to the principles of the republic.-----

Firstly, media is unfair in its pricing to candidates that will not scuttle the publics interest for that of corporations or the military industrial complex. Media does not share the facts of the issues. This has been like this for at least 30 years in a big way.-

Then the voting systems. Since the constitution of the republic calls for elections, there is only one kind allowed, called fair. Nothing else is reasonable. That doesn't exist, so time for democracy under Article 5 to fix the information system and the counting system.

A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.--

http://www.articlevmeeting.info/

Comprehensive strategy.---

http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 13 years ago

If I may, here's one of mine (at least to have on the committee to rewrite financial refoms): So why are oil prices high? The Enron Loophole. Former Head of U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, Professor Michael Greenberger, speaks to Congress on the high price of oil--and he's not happy about Energy Deregulations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 13 years ago

how about this as a good start wfv?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/

That should get the ball rolling in the right direction again. Good points here.

[-] 1 points by TheScreamingHead (239) 13 years ago

uh uh!! Flaw with this whole thinking...we never were a democracy. This is a republic, and ppl who think it is a democracy are the people that tend to play the victim role too much.

Culture of Self Employment!

http://occupyyallstreet.blogspot.com

[-] 1 points by Redmist (212) from Yazd, Yazd 13 years ago

My wallet is full and I just left the rifle range. Seems like its working fine for me.

[-] 1 points by wavefreak58 (134) 13 years ago

If the United States is such a failure why do people still want to come here?

Maybe we've got problems, but it's still a great place to live.

[-] 1 points by sunshower (80) 13 years ago

why is it that so few are able to openly state this obvious state of affairs? BECAUSE THEY DON'T YET KNOW ENOUGH OFTHE FACTS TO OPENLY DEFEND THE TRUTH

[-] 1 points by ConcernedCitizen42 (23) 13 years ago

The 1% owns/controls the media, the corporations and the government -- you see people go from top-positions in the private sector into the government and vice versa. There are strings, connections and money everywhere. The mainstream media is controlled by the same people and therefore part of the problem - it hides and distracts from the truth, it keeps people mesmerized with entertainment and construed polarizations and controversies. As long as people keep watching TV, they're in the control -- which is it going to be democrat or republican?

-- next time you vote, vote for the candidate with the least money!!

[-] 1 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 13 years ago

As we become informed, the news media and Congress will have no choice but to meet the demands of grass roots America.

[-] 0 points by Uriah (218) 13 years ago

You mean, not Obama.

[-] 1 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 13 years ago

We need to keep it democratic.

We do have the most free speech than any other countries, so that will help.

[-] 2 points by ConcernedCitizen42 (23) 13 years ago

a democracy needs informed citizens to function... to be informed you need access to the truth and different points of view... most people in the US today are not well-informed...

[-] 2 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 13 years ago

This is why our movement must educate.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Duh! of course its a failed Democracy, because its a Republic you dumb asses. How can any of you so called people fight for anything, most of you have been dumbed down so far you dont even know what form of government the United States of America has. Even more, none or you seem to know of even care what a legal fiction is, and legal fictions are 99% of the problem, legal frictions are why you can not assemble. Legal fictions have no Constitutional rights. Smarten up will ya, and stop mic checking like a bunch of lemmings in places where mic check is not needed, it makes you all look like your in socialist training courses.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The USA is a Representative Democracy. Period end of story, that's all folks.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Article 4 section 4 US constitution, you should read it. And while your at it Check out dictionary.com first definition of Republican....

[-] 1 points by WAT99P (9) 13 years ago

Im having a problem logging onto Facebook. Seems odd that Facebook was used as a crucial tool in the middle east to organize people to stand up for their rights and overthrow their

dictators. Funny how now that protestors are gathering at Wall Street and around the world to demand Justice for plummitting the world economy into chaos that many people are having

trouble logging on to facebook...this same senario happened in Iran when people starting organizing against their government. Seems to me that Facebook has been taken over by the.01% to

prevent the 99% from organizing. The 99% must organize before Occupy Wall street becomes a faded memory... organize your groups around the world...elect leaders to stand together

world wide. DO NOT GIVE IN!!!... DO NOT GIVE UP!! It is time to take our countries back from the greedy and corrupt. For those of you who still have access to Facebook it is your

duty to spread the word.

Please post this on your facebook profile and forward this email.

We_Are_The_99_Percent@planet.com

[-] 1 points by Oberon (35) 13 years ago

as a greater writer noted...we have witnessed a fall of the republic....

the good news is that we still have something to take back eh? no need for armageddon folks. we can work with what we have and we can work towards steering things back into safe waters. it can be done and we must do it. those of us forward looking persons that have a grasp on the big picture and can convey it so that people understand what is happening and the steps we will take to fix it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Revolution is not out of the question for resolving the present problems: Our Founding Fathers endorsed Revolution:

In political philosophy, the right of revolution (or right of rebellion) is the right or duty, variously stated throughout history, of the people of a nation to overthrow a government that acts against their common interests.

This is what the Founding Fathers Believed was the right of all men.

[-] 1 points by elw757 (2) 13 years ago

Maybe we should focus efforts on Washington rather than Wall Street?

http://goinghostile.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/want-change-re-focus-your-effort/

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The corrupt influence of the Banks and Wall street on the political system and the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few (1%) with the corresponding inequality of our system. The 99% bailout the corrupt 1% and loose everything they have and the futures of their children. Is intolerable and must be reversed by any and all means available.

[-] 1 points by Idaltu (662) 13 years ago

It is really a chicken an egg question. Get one and you get the other.

[-] 1 points by Jelm430 (87) 13 years ago

Hey it worked for the tea party,Why won't it work for us.Get it at the gut instead of the mouth.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

I think this best describes the American Democracy:

Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all the people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination Direct democracy is a political system where the citizens participate in the decision-making personally, contrary to relying on intermediaries or representatives. The supporters of direct democracy argue that democracy is more than merely a procedural issue. A direct democracy gives the voting population the power to:

Change constitutional laws, Put forth initiatives, referendums and suggestions for laws, Give binding orders to elective officials, such as revoking them before the end of their elected term, or initiating a lawsuit for breaking a campaign promise.

[-] 1 points by demonstrator (167) 13 years ago

and that is what we want---

or should i say we demand it

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

There is no American democracy there is only an America republic. The American republic is majority rule via representatives WITH CERTAIN RIGHTS RESERVED TO THE MINORITY ( bill of rights etc.) Get your facts straight people, or this movement goes nowhere...

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The World considers the United States to be the 2nd largest democracy. I guess the World community is wrong and you in your infinite understanding of the US constitution are right. Correct me if I got it wrong.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

I already corrected you in another link, ( Article 4 section 4 of the United States constitution)

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage.

Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

The term republic is not synonymous with the republican form. The republican form is defined as one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all the people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

United States Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy.

"SO THE USA IS A DEMOCRACY, SPECIFICALLY A REPRESENTATIVE FORM OF DEMOCRACY"

I hope this settles the discussion.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Democracy is majority rule, Republic is majority rule with specific rights retained by the minority. No matter what the majority wants they can never take away the certain rights set forth in the founding documents in A Republic. How on earth can you say A republican form is not synonymous with republic. A quich check of dictionary.com: definition 1 of republican- Pertaining to or the nature of a republic.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10). you mean that federalist paper 10??? Well it can certainly be ascertained that the founders did not want a democracy or a majority rule without certain rights being retained by the non majority.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Here is the definition of the form of the United States Government from the horses mouth. James Madison who coined the term and defined it in federalist paper number 10, also Noah Webster included this definition in Websters Dictionary of 1828.

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

"The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended." from Federalist #10 Seems to me the author clearly knew there is a difference between A democracy and a republic.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The United States does not fit the classical definition of a Republic, that is why James Madison developed and defined the phrase Representative Democracy. As defined in Noah Websters Dictionary of 1828.

[-] 0 points by smartguy (180) 13 years ago

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%." - Thomas Jefferson

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 13 years ago

That would be a direct democracy as once existed in Greece. Democratic republic is a pretty good description of the US.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your an ignorant Bastard. Please read the definition of a democracy.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

that is exactly why America was founded as a Republic

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The USA is a Representative Democracy. Period end of story, that's all folks.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Chuck, stop being a parrot just repeating what you learned in Banker controlled institutions. Article 4 section 4 of the US constitution specifically states the USA shall guarantee a REPUBLICAN form of government, the constitution makes no mention of democracy. Democracy and Republic go back as far as the Roman empire. The founders had a choice they did not choose Democracy. Republic and Democracy are not the same, no matter what your liberal socialist teachers have tried to instill in you. I suggest you invest in a good law dictionary if you want to make positive contributions to this movement.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.[53]

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The World Community considers the United States to be the 2nd largest Democracy. So it's the World against amanoftheland's opinion of whether we can be considered a democracy according to standard definitions.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

The world opinion has no effect on the constitution. (Article 4 section 4 of the US Constitution) Not to mention the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the "Republic" for which it stands one nation under god....... let the rest of the world put that in its pipe and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The term republic is not synonymous with the republican form. The republican form is defined as one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all the people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Thomas Jefferson: was the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence (1776)

The Declaration justified the independence of the United States by listing colonial grievances against King George III, and by asserting certain natural and legal rights, including a right of revolution.

The Declaration of Independence was voted on. IE: By Mob rule I take it from your out of context quote from Thomas Jefferson.

[-] 1 points by Dost (315) 13 years ago

I suggest several steps toward doing something: 1) Build a National Progressive Movement focusing on Financial corruption, Economic Injustice, and Political Dysfunction and spell it out clearly and in detail (some people on here have done so with regard to Wall Street abuses, e.g.). 2) Use that platform to attract membership and build a base of 1000 chapters or so across the country. The Chapters would attract members through direct actions (protests, demonstrations, etc.) and educate people. 3) Education would be done through dissemination of a information in a pamphlet and other sources including a website dedicated to it along with an analysis and history of the concentration of wealth and plutocratic control of Govt. along with its massive dysfunction and distortion of economic opportunities for the mass of people; 4) Fundraising to accomplish these goals; 5) Ever massive demonstrations and protests with this focus; 6) An organization that can then consider various options--Forming a Political Party, focusing on a Constitutional Amendment and such a campaign, or getting involved in electoral politics to influence candidates ore run our own. The only other option is violent rebellion and revolution which I oppose (it would be crushed and the movement discredited). If people opt for a Massive Non-Violent Movement to continue without organization and leaders as so many seem to be suggesting, then its success depends on the support of masses of people, sustaining it, and being ever creative and promoting non-cooperation, boycotts, strikes, and occupying Washington D.C., perhaps. These are the only options, I believe. Others here, are talking about creating our own economic institutions and a parallel economy of sorts. Fine. But then do it. Don't just talk about it and sit around on your ass, bitching and moaning. Set an example and demonstrate to others that creating our own banking system is viable and can work.

[-] 1 points by Billyblastoff (33) 13 years ago

Voters’ turnout in North America is constantly going down and people are disillusioned with the electoral process and feel it has now become a bit meaningless to vote. It is not enough for most people just to vote once every four years to elect someone that will later be corrupted or do whatever.

In order to create a better democracy, we need to be able to bypass at least some of the representative process. Modern communications is now allowing us to say what we want as individuals and we no longer need to be represented by people in parliament to take decisions for us. The role of the government should be to propose directions society could take but letting the people decide through referendums (direct democracy). This process, while alleviating corruption by removing some power to elected people, would allow some decisions that no political party would ever attempt to take because they would often be against the interests of influent lobby groups and powerful corporations (banks).

So far, the main argument against e voting taking on is revolving around confidentiality (anonymity) and hacking concerns. Those issues could be addressed by having an open e voting system by which the database, although anonymous, would be open allowing voters to verify that their vote is accounted for and accurate. The users would have a username identifying them in the database, enter their password and vote on an issue. Having an open database would allow voters to verify that their vote is accounted for and get the same results from the vote than the “official public results”. For the first time it would be possible for individuals to be certain that their voice was heard. Many referendums could be run simultaneously and in case of doubt you void the results and start again, it’s cheap. Looking at what is happening in the Arab world, this might be a way to quickly implement a form of democracy in places where there is nothing yet to support it. This system would allow the population to clearly voice their will and overrule some decisions taken by current and previous governments in order to tip the balance of power towards the majority. Your movement is very fertile ground for these ideas to take roots, there are highly educated motivated people in your group that could make this a reality and elaborate a system that would account for minority rights, server setups, phone interface etc. It could also (one can dream) create a whole new world where every voice can finally be heard and be as important towards decision making as anyone else. No matter the size of the voter’s bank account or number of influential friends: we have to take the power back.

[-] 1 points by Pfletch83 (40) 13 years ago

The OWS movement are in the same boat that the founding Tea party was a few years earlier,don't allow yourselves to be co-opted by the same establishment hacks that you stand against.

Instead stand with the founding Tea Party you'll know us by who we support (Ron P.) .

We want to cut big government back down to size and hold the Federal (in name only) Reserve bank accountable for the money they print like it's going out of style.

Also it is Corporatism that has failed not the true free market Capitalist system

The Free market Capitalist system will work in the peoples favor if big Government is taken out of what should be the private sector.

Stand with fellow members of free humanity in this fight.

Do so by demonstrating as well as voting for the candidate that can best help us fix our once great country.

Vote Ron P. in 2012.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by smartguy (180) 13 years ago

America is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic. There's a very important difference and it's very irresponsible for anyone to claim otherwise.

[-] 2 points by Dost (315) 13 years ago

This is the kind of bullshit and drivel that idiots on here keep posting. A republic is a govt. where the people elect representatives who are supposed to represent and carry out their interests. This parsing of the strict definition of a democracy where the PEOPLE RULE is ridiculous. The people are suppose to rule through their representatives pure and simple. Our representatives have been bought by a tiny minority of people (elements within the top corporations and other influential networks of the tiny upper class). They have bought or representatives out and utilize this power to get what they want. The PEOPLE, most of them, are not represented or only minimally. It varies from decade to decade, dependent on social and economic forces. But since 1980 in particular, the Plutocrats have asserted firm control of the govt. as they had in other periods (early 1900s throught eh 1920s as well as other historic periods).

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The USA is a Representative Democracy. Period end of story, that's all folks.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Republic. Do not use the word democracy at all to justify anything if that's what you're trying to do.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Can't you read! you moron. That's the official definition of our form of government! Are you some sort of block head.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Read a real book. Even Wikipedia has it right. I read books called Encyclopedias, if you even know what those are.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Again, the United States of America has a form of government known as a Representative Democracy. If you can't do a simple thing like look in a reference site like Wikipedia and find that definition that your a complete MORON and they are very rare.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Any decent textbook will tell you. Washington, D.C. 38°53′N 77°01′W New York City None at federal level[a] English (de facto)[b] American Federal presidential constitutional republic Barack Obama (D)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

You call a moron? Someone not smarter than a 12 year old. A third grader, 8 years old, is smarter than you because they know America is a republic.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Now this makes you a COMPLETE MORON.

Republic (redirect from Republic democracy) differs from that expressed in the United States Constitution which ... United States: This is known as representative democracy . ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=United+states+Representative

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

I never said Wikipedia was valid. Stop drinking the kool-aid. Remember Jim Jones and his Jonestown? You are being deceived. Revolt is exactly what They want. Pass blame on one.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_States_during_World_War_II

The United States maintained its Representative Democracy government structure throughout World War II. Certain expediencies were taken within the existing structure of the Federal government, such as conscription and other violations of civil liberties, and the internment and later dispersal of Japanese-Americans. Still, elections were held as scheduled in 1944.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Those in glass houses should not throw stones.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Use Wikipedia again, and you are not smarter than a third grader. I know things without needing to post links. I merely did it for you to see yourself because that part is valid. Not all of Wikipedia is correct. My real encyclopedias state it is a republic. Face reality or move to Russia.

[-] 1 points by Tommiethenoncommie (211) 13 years ago

Nope. Lost power. Used my phone but had to conserve battery life. My quest continues!

[-] 1 points by Jelm430 (87) 13 years ago

seems like tommie was a troll.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Here's another reference:

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

What other information or Reference sites are wrong? I promise not to use them, I'll rely on your opinion from now on I promise.

[-] 0 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 13 years ago

We should set up a parallel "Peoples Democracy" today. Since the DC one is owned and run by Int'l Corps. it has no real legitimacy anymore. It doesn't say in the Constitution We the CORP. people of America." It says "We the People" as in flesh and blood people. We the 99% are no longer being represented.

[-] 0 points by genanmer (822) 13 years ago

Before reading my little shpiel I recommend looking into these links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qlgzTlAvOo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIMy0QBSQWo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU

The US hasn't failed as a democracy because no government can function independent from its economic structure. Since our economy is based on the fiat money system. It exaggerates the fact that money itself is created out of debt, it requires scarcity, it requires competition, and it promotes differential advantage.

Democracy has the intention of being collaborative which is why it is superior to other forms of government. However the fact that the economic system is competitive undermines and exaggerates the problems of any governmental structure. Economic competition is one of acquisition where those that play the game well acquire money. And money rewards almost limitless access to goods/resources and a generally higher quality of life. However money also punishes those lacking it by restricting their access to food, healthcare, and other life necessities.

Money is an outdated technology which must be replaced by a new technology. Every single dollar is an IOU token which implies people only do stuff for others because 'they owe them'. This would be great if everyone earned their value. Unfortunately, we see the influences of fractional reserve banking, quantitative easing, speculative gambling, fiat currency, inheritences, and so on. Many do not earn their money and even the value in which people are rewarded is skewed. Compare the average pay of a cancer researcher to that of a hedge fund CEO.

Add to this the fact that now machines do a HUGE portion of our labor and the value of our work becomes even more subjective. The automation of agriculture has increased our productivity so much that fewer than 1% of our population are farmers. The same applies to automation in manufacturing, less than 8%. Even the service sector is at risk now with atms, self check-out kiosks, and many other automated technologies being developed.

Jobs are at risk even without globalization and the irony is most of the jobs necessary to operate society today don't require people. So this ironically while machines create more abundance, less people have access to it due to money. Fortunately this technological unemployment gives us a few options.

We can either 1.Artificially limit our technologies so more people can work menial jobs they dislike. 2.Do nothing and allow unemployment to rise until people begin revolting on a larger scale than what is right now occuring 3.Utilize a new means of distribution which promotes collaboration rather than competition using these technological advances to our benefit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWvFqgMhko

Personal Opinion: Apply the scientific method to advance society through a resource based economy and apply direct democracy to the remaining unresolved subjective issues.

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 13 years ago

"Ballots might be Bull" I want my votes to be counted. Do you? Can secret ballots can be used to manipulate the voting results by those that count the votes. Maybe the world has to stop the this type of voting in which each person's vote is kept secret, and then the amassed secret votes of various groups are revealed publicly. "LOL" A sheet of paper or a card and now a computor program are used to cast or register a vote, especially a secret one. Who is counting the total of all votes cast in an election. Probably some government official that has a vote of his or her own. Now again let us all "LOL" Ha, Ha,Ha, We're screwed

[-] 0 points by owschico (295) 13 years ago

Its a republic and we need to restore the republic. FUCK democracy!

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

We are a democractically controlled republic and Article 5 of the constitution is the mechanism by which the republic is controlled.------

No demand will be met because the government is corrupted and not constitutional. Therefore the demand must be made to the states to apply for an Article 5 convention so we can democratically enforce the constitution and create a constitutional government.

http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The USA is a Representative Democracy. Period end of story, that's all folks.

[-] 2 points by rayl (1007) 13 years ago

why are we squabbling with each other here? what are the real problems facing us and our nation? please concentrate on what is important!

BEWARE OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER STRATEGIES!!!!!!

UNITED WE STAND!!!

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

Yes, but within the principles of the republic. I mentioned how those are democratically changed, which is a level of democracy OVER all others.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Define Republic please, maybe you'll learn something from that.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

I see the issue. The generic original definition.-----

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic

The US is a constitutional republic, and I erroneously assumed you knew that.-----

http://conservapedia.com/Constitutional_Republic http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

This is what I know:

United States Main article: Republicanism in the United States A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828. It was a novel meaning to the term; representative democracy was not an idea mentioned by Machiavelli and did not exist in the classical republics.

The term republic does not appear in the Declaration of Independence, but does appear in Article IV of the Constitution which "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government." What exactly the writers of the constitution felt this should mean is uncertain.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

Okay, the vaguaries are mapped out. I'm just thankful that Article 5 is there to amend or abolish aspects of the constitution that are exploited unconstitutionally, indirectly by representatives.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Would you enlighten me on what aspects of the Constitution are being exploited unconstitutional. Thank You.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

Chris wrote: Therefore the demand must be made to the states to apply for an Article 5 convention so we can democratically enforce the constitution and create a constitutional government.END------

chuck1al wrote: Would you enlighten me on what aspects of the Constitution[ally] are being exploited unconstitutional. Thank You.END--------

I've quoted what I think you refer to, where I did not use the word "exploited", no matter. I think I properly fixed a typo in brackets in your quoted message above. If I've done these things well, these are a couple of the answers I can take off the top of my head.

The federal reserve Citizens united, 9-11 (due process not provided and war waged), Bank bailouts, NAFTA, GATT

How many did I miss?:) -

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Quite a few how about separation of church and state, waging war on government Institutions, trying to subvert the constitution by installing a christian theocratic government, Partisan activity of churches in violation of their tax exemption, homeschooling their children (child abuse), the elimination of the fairness doctrine (this allows fox news to make up stories.), modifying the public school curriculum, so they can teach Intelligent design theory as science, state-sanctioned prayer in public schools, advocate removing sexual education from public schools. sorry my carpal tunnel is acting up, there are lots more.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

Wow! If there were concrete examples that could be disected that would be great, and I'm sure there are. I do recognize the issues and accept without a doubt that with scrutiny in each case there would be exactly what you say.---

Along the same lines I know for sure that church dogma about the unconscious mind is defying the Hippocratic oath the state has commited to by certifying doctors because the church is afraid of it and thinks the devil lives there. If the church wasn't doing that appropriate and effective mental health care would have been developed 30 years ago. In addition the state uses the fact of mass murders by psychopaths to justify 2nd amendment violations.-----

Sorry about that carpal tunnel. I've treated my minor case by opening my hands all the way and stretching the fingers, hard, outwards for minute or so about 15 times a day.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

So vote them out - put up your own candidate. The Tea Party was very successful in 2010

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The so called TEA PARTY is trying to subvert the Constitution of the US. By preventing Government from operating and it's goal of a Christian Theocracy. The Tea Party is the old Religious right re-branding itself. My source is:

Robert D. Putnam (Harvard) and David E. Campbell (Univ. of Notre Dame) have been awarded the Woodrow Wilson Foundation Award for American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us (Simon and Schuster). The Wilson Award of the American Political Science Assocation (APSA) recognizes the "best book published in the U.S. during the previous calendar year on government, politics, or international affairs".

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Get the book asshole and see with your own eyes the demographic evidence. It is conclusive you religious right activist. What are you doing in a OWS forum.

AMERICAN GRACE WINS BEST POLITICAL SCIENCE BOOK OF 2010-2011.

Robert D. Putnam (Harvard) and David E. Campbell (Univ. of Notre Dame) have been awarded the Woodrow Wilson Foundation Award for American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us (Simon and Schuster). The Wilson Award of the American Political Science Assocation (APSA) recognizes the "best book published in the U.S. during the previous calendar year on government, politics, or international affairs".

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

Does economic slavery ring a bell? I do believe OWS and the Tea Party do have some issues in common. So does that make it a crime, tough guy?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

TEA PARTY = subvert the Constitution, Christian Theocracy, eliminate social security, eliminate Affordable Health care act, Eliminate Medicare, Eliminate women's health care, eliminate voting rights (ID Laws etc.), eliminate the middle class, Eliminate the two party system, Eliminate Democracy.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

And you got that all out of a book, hahahahahahahah, your not a clown you’re a court puppet.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Read a book, you'll learn something MORN.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

I read books not propaganda.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

$hit a$$hole I started a County level Tea Party Organization, I think I know what I'm talking about.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your a bigger Moron than I thought, the book says 80% are religious right activists. So you must be in the 20% Duh. So that just makes you and your group stooges for their subverting the constitution and calling true patriots traitors also their agenda to convert the country to a christian theocracy Hope you and your group are proud Americans..

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

So are you one of those true patriots, or just a moocher with half a brain wrapped in a flag? I guess you’ll start quoting Mao, Stalin, and posting quotes from Che Guevra on a tent.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

That's the TEA PARTY call a true patriot a traitor.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

So which one Redneck, Mao, Stalin or Guevra is the “true patriot”? I bet you’re in one of them militias just itching for a revolution.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

Better a moron then a loser, who has to read a book for decision making. You think this is my first rodeo, clown? Subverting the constitution, you know nothing of the constitution and how it was subverted by good old Woodrow Wilson. Ironic huh?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

WTF

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

I get it, your just dumb redneck from Alabama, hell I bet you have a rebel flag hanging out on the front porch and you belong to the local union.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

Was the Constitution written to construct a system where the Federal Government has limited powers - yes or no ?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

That is not a yes or no question genius:

The details of American federalism, including what powers the federal government should have and how those powers can be exercised, have been debated ever since the adoption of the Constitution. Some make the case for expansive federal powers while others argue for a more limited role for the central government in relation to individuals, the states or other recognized entities.

However the States Rights Theorists argument was settled in 1865 by force of arms.

Since that time the Federal Government has supremacy in all matters pertaining to law.

Law: is a system of rules and guidelines which are enforced through social institutions to govern behavior, wherever possible. It shapes politics, economics and society in numerous ways and serves as a social mediator of relations between people.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Since 1865, the federal government has had supremacy in LEGAL FICTION/COLOR OF LAW through public policy. Color of law is not law. Get the facts straight

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all the people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law.It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your an Ignorant Bastard, what are your sources for your opinions. your delusional thoughts.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

Open you eyes bozo, Congress was reconvened by Lincoln under executive order, not via constitutional rules of quorum. Therefore everything congress has done since then has been what lawyers and courts refer to as "legal fiction" or " color of law". Why do you think every id card and government correspondence you see is in the name of your legal fiction(JOHN SMITH). check any governmental styles manual, there is no listing for the use of an all capital letter name. legal fictions have no constitutional rights. Now is the time to take your head out of the sand.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

States's rights were affected by the fundamental alteration of the federal government resulting from the Seventeenth Amendment, depriving state governments of an avenue of control over the federal government via the representation of each state's legislature in the U.S. Senate.

Current states' rights issues include the death penalty, assisted suicide, gay marriage .

States Rights where settled in 1865 by force of arms. The Federal Government has supremacy in all matters of law.

Again you give Me your opinion, I don't want your deluded opinion and have to accept it as fact. Please give me sources of fact not fiction.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The Christian Law Fellowship is your factual source! YOU'VE GOT TO BE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND.

Go back to the Religious right and read your bible you fool.

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

The link if extensively footnoted, if you choose not to verify the facts then there is no hope. Its time to do some actual work and discredit the work and not dismiss it because you did not like the first paragraph.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

It's religious right propaganda, they won't to form a Christian theocracy in the United States. Your either a dupe or an agent for the cause.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

ok - how limited or how expansive? How much power & control are you willing to give to the feds?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

The attacks of the Religious Right (TEA PARTY) on our institutions of Government is a war against America. We must defend the Constitution by opposing the forces of the rich and powerful. The Federal Government is the democratically elected Representative of the people, in that capacity they have all the power of the people of the United States of America.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Here's your impartial evidence from two respected Professors. In the book are the demographics for the so called Tea Party. Their conclusion based on evidence is that 80% of the Tea Party are re-branded Religious right activists. So before you just decide to call someone wrong check your facts numskull.

AMERICAN GRACE WINS BEST POLITICAL SCIENCE BOOK OF 2010-2011.

Robert D. Putnam (Harvard) and David E. Campbell (Univ. of Notre Dame) have been awarded the Woodrow Wilson Foundation Award for American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us (Simon and Schuster). The Wilson Award of the American Political Science Assocation (APSA) recognizes the "best book published in the U.S. during the previous calendar year on government, politics, or international affairs".

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

80% huh? So if it walks like a goose, honks like a goose, it must be a duck. Is this the conclusions of these two professors. The Religious Right Was 30 years ago, hell most of them are most likely dead by now.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Christian right is a term used predominantly in the United States to describe "right-wing" Christian political groups that are characterized by their strong support of socially conservative policies. Religious conservatives principally seek to apply the teachings of particular religions to politics, sometimes by merely proclaiming the value of those teachings, at other times by having those teachings influence laws

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your a bigger Morn than I thought.

[-] 1 points by TPCO (32) 13 years ago

How many Tea Party Meetings have you attended?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

I do my homework before I commit to a subversive movement like the Tea Party.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

so come again? how limited or how expansive does OWS want the federal govt?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Figero, are you an agent provocateur? your questions and comments are the talking points of the religious Right (TEA PARTY).

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

I don't speak for OWS. That said, the Federal Government and it's Institutions are the Representatives of the people. Is that plain enough for you to understand?

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

yea - so how much or how little federal government intervention do you want? Should the Federal budget be 20% of GDP or 90% of GDP. this is the amount to be confiscated and distributed by the government instead of by the people. Put a figure on it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your an Agent Provocateur, Your posts will no, longer be answered. Go back to your Masters and tell them you where found out. You stooge.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

again - no answer troll

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

It is you who espouse the classic trolling ventricular.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

again - no answer

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Figero, you have no history, you just appeared. Do you think we're stupid? go back to Faux News and tell them we're on to you. good bye.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 13 years ago

as suspected - you cant answer the question or wont - because you will reveal your true communist intentions. I suspect you'd like 100% government control.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 13 years ago

Your an Agent Provocateur and most likely work for Faux News.