Forum Post: [DELETED]
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 9, 2011, 9:53 p.m. EST by anonymous
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I don't care whether its a dem or repub. I just want war to stop. I just want the Bailouts to stop. I just want the Big Banks broken up. I just want the fraud to stop. I just want people's accounts to be respected. I just want a level playing field. I just want America to be independent (If we bow to a creditor we are not). I just want to be left alone. I want 'guilty until proven innocent' to stop. I just want torture to stop. I want inflation to stop. I want the misrepresentation to stop. I want the bribes and payoffs to stop.
WhoEVER has the longest, most unwavering voting record on these issues gets my vote. MSNBC FOX CNN NBC BLOOMBERG... no ones telling me who to vote for, I have a mind of my own, and researching voting records is a snap.
nice post
richardkentgates intentionally left out TROLLS like himself who try to co-opt OWS for their own financial gain. This topic is nothing more than another nauseating attempt to promote his "write for free for my for-profit website" in the comments below.
Here is a list of all his posts on this forum with links to his own website: http://ows.superunion.org/results/?q=citicommons
Watch as richardgates richardkgates richardkengates richardkentgates MOrichardgates uses these and who knows how many other accounts this TROLL has to vote this comment into collapse.
as being one of those so called "co opted," i find your comment short sided. If he wants to make money off of my writings so be it. he took the time to set up a place for me to use my writing skills to get out a moderate view of the USA. he set up the infrastructure that i can use. My limited knowledge of the internet inhibited me from doing it myself. I went to his place because i relate to his working class life style. he is a cook trying to change the direction of his nation. that in my book is commendable. if he makes a penny or two off of it, kudos to him
raichardgates is a self-professed non-supporter of OWS. He repeatedly spams these forums with nonsensical threads and posts linking to his website that are solely intended to increase the rank of his site on search engines.
If you are happy with that arrangement, good for you and better for him. Most people prefer to get paid for their work.
name recognition may be better for me in the future. If things change in this nation, I might want to work for a paper, or better yet, write a book. If my style and know how is on display for publishers to see, I have a better chance of success. it is no different than a struggling musician putting his works on Youtube. and some of his contributions are helpful. he is just from my side of the tracks so he has a mouth, kudos for him. it is called moxie. Only thing i can discern about him is that he don't like radicals. but maybe that is a flaw. I'm not there yet so right now I can relate. It seems to me we have enough radicals in Washington. who needs more. Those who espouse non violence are not radicals in my book. Is that not what this forum believes?
You want to be a writer? As a published author I can offer a little insight.
There are many places on the web such as Huffington Post, Disinformation, etc., that you can contribute to that have a far higher profile and far wider readership than richardgates will ever have. Don't confuse some bozo's backwater website with YouTube.
ProPublica is looking for experienced investigative journalists, if you were to do a solid piece of work along these lines they might take notice. Any writing published on such sites can be considered a portfolio piece.
A good strategy is to focus on your local community - you know the issues and the environment, and along those lines you can write for local newspapers. Letters, guest editorials, etc. will not get you paid but will get you real exposure in a published media.
As to books, well, that is a another thing entirely.
Right on. I watch DemocracyNow and I follow Human Rights Watch. It tends to give me more tools than if I spent ten times the effort on the MSM.
I'll second your sentiment exactly as you put it.
Unless we get a Kucinich/Paul ticket, you can expect an extra heavy dose of all of the above the next 4 years...
Just for fun, ask a tea party supporter how they did in 'Critical Thinking'.
They won't know what your talking about.
Just please, in the name of the Republic, stop censoring this board. It's OK to remove spammers, but the idea of having a filter to stop people from posting the name "Ron Lawl" is offensive to me as a member of Occupy Oakland. Please, I beg you, stop this before it becomes divisive within the movement.
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The main thing I have to say about it is: Who the fuck runs this website? And are they answerable to the general assembly of Occupy Wall St? Because this is a very serious issue to me. It might seem small.... but SB 1867 and the Patriot Act seem small to most Americans. This is not a joke to me. Lawl? LOL? This is an insult to consensus.
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I made a post, but I guess so far no responses. I thought it was pretty good. I'm pretty damn offended.
I would suggest a policy of Ignoring any kind or manner of posting that is not consistent with the core Humane Values of Occupy...don't waste energy refuting or insulting the contrarians...let them ventilate their spite and ignorance and do not respond. It shouldn't be difficult for any Occupier to identify the spirit of the subversive and non-cooperative. Save your energy for contributions to ideas that drive in direction of our Humane Values.
I wish it were that easy. The 1% infiltrates and confuses here too, just like in "real life". Some tactics need to be called out.
I understand how you, and others, feel about the infiltrators...and your response to engage them is natural but both ineffective and counterproductive. You are not going to change them, and you needn't attempt to protect others whom you think may be vulnerable because, if they are vulnerable, they are so far from being capable of the harder truths that are necessary for their ultimate survival of attack from them that they will eventually fall in another forum, in another place and time where you will not be there to avert their overthrow and deception; in the meanwhile, your energies are being corrupted and diverted to uses where you COULD be contributing productively, given your capacity for insight. Don't engage them...you hurt yourself and deprive others whom you might inspire to a better spirit and endeavor, those like yourself. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face...that's all I'm saying.
Then Why Bother having OWS to combat lies and tactics of trickery? Holy moley, this is a new approach, "hands off" the lies?
I don't know where you got a sanction to assert THAT as a mission of Occupy...I mean, who do you think you are speaking for? It hasn't been my impression from Occupiers anywhere that they believe the mission of Occupy is to pick fights on forums with idiots and trolls, rather to cultivate ideas that answer to the immediate and pressing needs of ordinary people who are, for all intents and purposes, caught in a maze they cannot escape from. Let's have solutions, not more contests with idiots.
It could even be rightly said, I believe, that those who engage on the level of name calling and combatting aimlessly with trolls or dashing brutally against the fair ideas of others is engaging in a purely self-indulgent exercise of aggrandizement...I mean, aren't I important!...so important, in fact, my own personal dignity as an intelligent and positive contributor is secondary to my need to gratify my self-indulgent instinct in the first instance by proving other's inferiority of mind and/or evil intent. I don't want to stirr the hive, but this is the kind of thing that only demonstrates an incapacity for diplomacy, and consequently of any genuine leadership skills worthy of the name...a pity, indeed for the reputation and purposes of the Humane Values Occupy ought to inhabit and demonstrate.
Oh wooow. How did you get so off-track? Occupy is about combatting undue influence. The voters vote for things against their best interest because they falll for the lies and rhetoric of the 1%. If I see the same tactics on a forum, I will call them out.
I can't possibly be 'off-track' because Occupy principles of leadership dictates a Horizontal Model...which means YOU are not, nor ever will be, in a position to nullify my perceptions on the core Values which Occupy represents...and to say that they are NOT Humane is to beg the question: if they are inhumane, which is the only alternative, why would anyone approve or support such a movement? Riddle me that.
[Deleted]
So, what you are saying is that...if YOU were in charge of the dialogue to determine what is or is not in the interests of The People, I would have no part in your Party? That is the same spirit of Hierarchical, top-down authoritarian conceit as we are combating in the false-person of Corporate Culture...My way, or the highway.
I'll say it again as I have said it elsewhere...it's not your responsibility to rescue others from their vulnerability to delusion and deception, except perhaps to offer counter-proposals that will actually address the distortions being presented, but in such a way as does not engage animosity or further violent emotional contests. Just the fact that you quite directly assert that I'm in the wrong place suggests that you are prepared to call ME an asshole and resign me to your dustbin of others whom you consider to be dispensible to your purposes. I have a sense that you are ready to pounce upon any vulnerablility you perceive in others, despite clear evidence that your apparent opponent is on the side of core Occupy values. I'm not convinced you are capable of leadership here...but I'm open minded enough to allow that you may have something better to ad...so let's just see.
You are my prime example, parroting 1%er lines and selling it like it's gardenburger.
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I will make what you say my examples of how the 1% manipulates the masses. Go ahead and speak...
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It is left leaning.
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You cannot give the GOP any credit for OWS, ok? OWS is not right wing. Maybe nutty and confused Libertarian a bit, but to say OWS is neither right wing or left wing is not true, and should be pointed out. The right has caused the middle class to all but disappear, the right refuses to tax the 1%, there is NO WAY you can hint that OWS is half right wing, it is decidedly not. This is exaclty what the 1% does, takes ANY group, and steers it as far right as possible. If it is the GOP, they take it to nutty Libertarian land. If it is OWS, they try to push it as far right as possible. So there's the "secret". Most OWS hates what the GOP has done to this country.
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Why does everyone have to agree on the same specific, detailed goals? That is so far from being either reasonable or possible as to approach delusional thinking...or at the very least, sophomoric thinking. There is no way that Occupy is able to, or should try get everyone that has an enthusiasm for overthrowing Corporatism under the same Banner, which is to invite the kind of leadership structure Occupy is principally against. It's a flat contradiction, and counter productive. You want something specific changed? Propose it; get as many people together who share your motivation, then get it done! Looking for consensus is like a quest for Cordova or of the Unicorn...it's a fantacy and betrays an amateurish understanding of human nature and of the working possible...not quite forgivable, under the dire circumstances.
The only way Occupy is a workable concept for social change is to allow different Camps of Occupiers with different emphasis to build their own platforms around their own group of supporters, which they must build themselves, among themselves, then ally with other Camps of Occupiers with their own unique emphasis under their own Banners, then agree to protest and seek Redress TOGETHER. Otherwise, you're just whistling in the wind and inviting perpetual contest among differing emphasis that will NEVER be resolved into your precious 'concensus.'
I think you may be on to something with your comment about different Occupier camps building their own platforms then working together to get it done. That's the first time I've seen it put this way. I've read some of your other comments earlier this evening also and I think you're one of the few that are on the right track. Keep spreading your philosophy of anti-consumerism, self-sufficiency and mutual cooperation. It's the message we need to spread to the sleeping masses.
maybe ows is conservative, cause it's takin us back to our founder's beliefs and actions, that are all allowed and encouraged in our constitution.-so we're conserving our democracy from oligarchs and moneyed interests who would buy a disporportionate voice in government, and monopolistic political parties (both party's are conspiring in a game-trading power back and forth while the country is being sold out from under us to big oil, big pharma, etc). So although personally I lean a bit "left" at my core I want to "conserve" my America and protect it from corrosive influence....be they political party, billionaires, corporations that want to be on welfare and not do their part for the country that gives them home and shelter
You speak the way the 1% wants you to, like a great portion of these late-night posters right now.
Yea, west coast 11:49 pm. I'm a tired, old liberal, but i don't want to shout at everyone. that turns off lots of people too, and tired of obama not giving me more to hope for, and the 1 percent stealing my hope for justice, after our countries be sold out to that 1 percent. they're a bunch of freakin leaches, worst than the "welfare momas" Newt complained of in the 90s, cause they have the capacity to not be leaches, the choose to buy votes and play unfair and rape our lands.
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"so we can accomplish the goals we can all agree on..."
Isn't 'consensus' what you mean here? So, you ARE arguing what I asserted. Your dismissive attitude does precisely what you recommend should NOT be done in the adjoining phrase, which you say Occupy needs to guard against:
"...people have to stop alienating potential allies."
Maybe you don't know who your potential allies are...you certainly have dismissed the notion that I may be one of them by the qualifications I am making...tin ear, maybe?
[Deleted]
ok...you're right, Boss. It's all yours. I leave it to your obviously superior capacities. Good luck.
I guess I'm guilty of troll-feeding. I keep thinking that if I provide them one more set of facts, statistics or true stories they'll eventually GET IT.
I also worry that when they post long posts attempting to discredit OWS with information or references that amount to lies or distortion of theories, that if I don't discredit, some may be fooled by it. I know you say we can't protect people from their lies. But it's just those sort of lies that has hidden what's been happening to the public for so long.
Thank you -- I agree. Such things serve only to distract us from the very real problems we face. We need to keep reminding those who are truly involved here -- good ideologues and troublemakers know how to push buttons to stir up the trouble they so much enjoy.
quite true...it's just a pitfal to divert your energies from the REAL task at hand where you can actually hurt them, undermine their propoganda and disseminate powerful ideas. But you need your energy and your positive spirit to accomplish that, and this is precisely what they are attacking...they are attacking you in order to corrupt your energy and good-will. Be smarter than that and let your ego have a rest...it's not your responsibility, and you only hurt yourself and others by falling for it. I emplor you.
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I can see how that happens, even to the well-intended and intelligent Occupier; but we who care about Humane Values, which is what Occupy is about if it's about anything worth pursuing, must practice to maintain our own humanity in its best disposition if we at all expect to further our admirable agendas for The People. If we cannot rise above the human temptation, a base one, to engage animosity on its own terms, we will not have the energy to express the kind of spirit that is our promise for change in the world. If we condescend to vulgar contentions, we will only further and nurture the Beast that lives in our own breasts, which same Beast is the devouring agent inthe world today, as always, for destruction, slavery, war, and emotional violence. We must be the kind of change we hope to see in the world, or abandon the high-ground to wallow in the depravity that is the promise of our doom.
All I want is justice, equality, fairness, and some semblance of morals from both business and government.
I say that there should be a small contingent, with perhaps a few rotating accounts, to "Occupy The Trolls." Keep them busy, burn them out. Maybe even educate a few of them.
I'd rather be making the rules than living by rules made by someone else. We all know how that has turned out.
So, engage the trolls here. We don't all have to do it, there can even be shifts of people who are willing to offer due diligence and play Whack a Troll. Let's let some of the serious people get on with planning and actions while a few people run interference for them. I believe that this action would duplicate the reason that many of the Trolls are here in the first place. We can give it back to them.
Read the posts. I know how long it takes. I'm doing it when I can. I'm also learning what buttons to push to get the scum to respond. I doubt that I'm anywhere near the first to realize this, but I'll add my voice to it. When an evident troll jumps into a valued thread, take him/her out of the loop with a confrontation. It can be some fun!
I do like the term, "Whack-A-Troll!"
Keep in mind the above listed reasons that they are here for, but have some fun with it and practice your usage of invectives, inflectives and infectives. I am sure that the rest of us will excuse some colorful language to promote changing the world. Keep it peaceful, but creative and engaging. Other than that, follow the rules that the trolls have given us.
Keep your skin thick enough to mirror their thick skulls. Don't take it personally. Just Occupy The Trolls!
We're making a difference. Change has begun. I hate to use the word "war", but I'm starting to understand what it really means. Let's just call it a discussion, for now...
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you're exactly right on this point, richard.
No. Actually, it would be a tactic to counter the trolls. There must be a balance achieved.
I can't sit in a recovered home. I can run a website, after I work overtime. I can run interference, at times. Others can do this, too.
We have to work together to see things change. Everyone has their strengths.
Use them.
That is what the opposition is doing. And they have a lot more money...
Reread the first line of my above post.
your point has some merit, but the other thing perhaps to consider is that trolls grow stronger with the confrontation also, more determined...it's like fueling a fire, despite what you may think about burning them out. What you propose takes quite a bit of time and has no benefit. Those who are capable of the level of insight requisite to apprehend the truth and value of overcoming Corporatism don't require a victory over trolls; and those who do require a victory over trolls must accomplish this for themselves, inwardly, through their own hard work of discernment and education. It's not something you spoon-feed the vulnerable. They have to muscle-up to the challenge and train their brains to be capable of decocting lies long before they arrive here, at this stage of the contest, or they are not at all likely to have anything to offer of benefit anyway.
I'm talking about the time that the trolls put in. They have no real idea of why we're here. They just want to chew up our time. Let's give them some, but of a specialized sort. I don't make the rules, but I do play by them.
There will never be a victory over the trolls. They wouldn't know it if there was. Not until the changes are enacted, at least.
One of the best weapons in many past wars has been a benign action called a smoke screen. It has use here, too. I'm suggesting that we use it.
If performed well, a logical and engaging debate can prove quite entertaining. There is usually a winner in a debate. The trolls generally have little to work with and their arguments may provide keys to their own embarrassment.
It is just a tool that I suggest. All fires will burn out. I do expect that ours will be brighter and longer lasting...
There are times when truth must be delivered in a more forceful, deliberate manner. These trolls are confusing the many issues. They can't really be ignored. Deal with them, on their own level.
Too much is at stake.
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That's a reasonable proposition, I think. I have met people from various spectrums of the political divide who were capable of rational, respecful discourse; though more often than not we simply part ways amicably and agree to disagree. At bottom, I think, our differences can be understood in terms of Values we adhere to and which were inculcated, more or less, through a kind of cultural osmosis, which is to say, subjectively and not usually through rational persuasion; though I know that's possible, certainly preferrable.
You may be able to cultivate a better, more cordial spirit at least in our cultural discourse...and that would be a worthy goal in and of itself; I can imagine that to be achievable, to some degree. At any rate, I still have to believe that engaging trolls is utterly a waste of time, despite my respect for the sentiments of OccupyTheForestGuy's comments on this subject. Do what you thinks best then.
I've been moderating forums since the advent of the Undernet. I know the value of trading barbs with such scum. I don't disagree with your suggestion, but this site is too big a target for the "powers' to not interfere with.
So, take the real discussion to other venues. Or, deal with it here and engage the trolls on their own level. The efforts of a few people, here, could free many others to do real work.
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TROLL
Here is a list of all his posts on this forum with links to his own website: http://ows.superunion.org/results/?q=citicommons
Don't be fooled: this turd is using OWS to promote himself.
I really appreciate that you are here! I also appreciate a divergent opinion. And, I appreciate the miles you've put on to get here. We need to be involved to teach what we've seen. This fight isn't really for the old guys.
I may have taken a different road, but I have the same destination in mind. We are doing it!
But, there are many miles to get there.
Believe me, if I saw the fastest way there as breaking down barriers, I'd be on it. I, however, see too many barriers in the way to not consider alternative methodologies as required.
I have to qualify myself. I live in Canada. I therefore have a somewhat different perspective of politics. I do, however, see the same results. I'm not impressed with the direction of any countries these days. They all seem to be stomping the people to drain the wine... for only a very select few.
I'm saying that we have to specialize a bit. We have to work from a common goal, but from many directions. Whacking trolls is only one of the many directions.
Consider it a new sport? I wouldn't call someone running interference as spinning their wheels. Not if it allows others to achieve a goal.
Here is one of my little sites... www.occupytheforest.net I don't give a lot of direction, but I do hope that I give some relief, humour and support to all of this.
[Deleted]
Thanks. My intent is to supply a little humour into the mix.
But, there is a serious side to it, too.
Consider that we, all the people of the world, have taken control of the habitat of all those little creatures. Collectively, we aren't doing well in our stewardship. I'm hoping to remind people about the canaries in coal mines and what is happening now because of corporate greed.
If the direction of corporations isn't changed by this movement, there is little hope for nature. I don't believe that we can survive without nature. Look at what many of the really wealthy do with their booty... they buy islands and enclaves to hide away from what their companies have done to the workspace cities and the workers. Even if one of them was to question the morality of a corporate decision affecting nature, I would consider a victory to have been realized. We do have to work toward a lot more victories, though.
I believe that we should sic the squirrels on the nuts that troll every place that impedes rational oversight of our world. It is only one facet of what is needed, but it does have a place in the overall movement.
"Day traders who who believe the new regulations will force them to get a real job"
lol
I have long said that the majority of TROLLS here are call center folks working in India, that know english, and work for $1/day.
My feeling is they're paid by GoldmanSachs or the banks, yes they're hired by the lobbying firms on Madison Avenue, we know that, but Madison subcontracted the disruption out to India.
How about KOCH Brother paid shills & alike, plus really ignorant racist white people who think they're promoting REAL Christian values & beliefs!
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Truth hurts doesn't it?
Im a troll and I am not any of those 4, so that makes you a liar.
I hope you're a friendly troll: out for fun. Some "socrates-like" troll just ask a lot of questions in seeking truth. We shouldn't label trolls, either. Maybe they are little 99.5 percent- to be. But name calling should not be tolerated, by all the sides.
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I voted for George Bush and would vote for him today to.
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You post like a right-winger while saying party doesn't matter. WHY?
You do this exaclty yourself, just switch party names.
Really? You lie again. I really am a registered republican.
Your not very good at this.
[Deleted]
You lie again. Like I said not very good at this.
you mean I bought this green face paint for nothing?
no i didn't.
I like oatmeal
o no, I go for the inflammatory with the righties,
cuz I just luv ta watch'em sit 'n spin
[Deleted]
by doing what is best . . . .
so - what does that mean?
Have reasonable people not attempted to prevent all that has happened within our economic system - and failed?
I think they have.
I think it is time to get angry. I think it is time for the policy makers to understand that the shit is broken, so badly broken that resistance to serious and sweeping corrective measures is, in and of itself, going to increase social instability, and that this will have a direct and negative impact on them personally.
I think it is time for them to get a clue - because this does affect everyone, and if they don't get started cleaning up the mess, now, there's gonna be more to clean up tomorrow,
and if their own belief system and the commitments they have stand in the way, then they need to get out of the way, and if they will not move, we must move them.
We have no choice.
America has no choice.
Actually I'm an independent.
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True but I just accept that almost all of you on this site call me a troll so I took on the name.
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I agree with you. However, to your post, do you blame law enforcement or see it as just a fact to be placed in the public view?
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Ok understood thank you.
More self-important self-reinforcing OWS delusion. Maybe, just maybe you'll have to face the fact that you're not the 99%. Or maybe you'll just have to sing Kumbaya a little louder.
Ron Lawl: Stealth Dominionist: http://www.religiousrightwatch...
Ron Lawl photo with White Supremacist ‘Stormfront’ Leader (particularly see the embedded Orcinus link): http://www.dailykos.com/story/...
Dominionists discuss infiltrating #OCCUPYWALLSTREET: http://www.articlesbase.com/ne...
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Your research is incomplete.....Google is your friend do not fear the truth....
(Damn. Those were supposed to be 5 and 6. What happened?)
Nope. Wrong again.