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Forum Post: The subway action seems good.

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 15, 2011, 6:33 p.m. EST by alouis (1511) from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://occupywallst.org/action/november-17th/

The subway actions don't strike me as being so terrible as people here say. They are plans to bring the story to the people. It doesn't seem that OW is planning to go on the tracks, hold subway doors open, etc. We can though expect undercover cops and other enemies to do these things.

88 Comments

88 Comments


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[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Yes. Plenty of private security now playing role of provocateur in an attempt to discredit the movement. We can't stop them. Can't control that.

What we can control is our reaction. Provocateur will try to provoke a knee-jerk reaction wo we need to train so our knee jeer reaction is productive. We should practice response to provocateurs several times a day. That way, in the heat of the moment, our natural reaction will be a productive one instead of playing into their hands.

If provocateur attempts to cause violence or damage property, sit down immediately, everyone and point at the person and say "This person is not part of our group. We are nonviolent." Then, the story on the nightly news will be this lone guy looking foolish and movement wins even more support.

[-] 1 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 2 years ago

nice

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't know how practical this plan is but I agree with your sentiment.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Thanks. It'll work in practice.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Nightly news do lie at times.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Right. Do you think the 1% or anyone in power uses the sub-way ? You're simply going to annoy the crap out of the common people you claim to represent. Do you think that's smart ?

[-] -1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Some will be annoyed, some will be neutral, some will be glad to see OW. From what I see there is no OW plan to actually stop the trians, though I'd expect there is a Bloomberg/NYPD plan to do just that.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

If there are just a FEW OWS folks and there remains plenty of room for the average folks who use them daily, then it's probably OK. I don't sense this is the plan, however. We can't afford to alienate the common man.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I can only go by the plan that OW has published and that i gave the link to. It doesn't seem to include stopping trains from running. Again-- I'd expect the NYPD to do just that.

[-] 2 points by Qwerty (15) 2 years ago

I concur. Go away, you are ruining what little us 99ers have left

[-] 2 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

Yeah, watch out for the spies and secret agents! Right, because this movement needs help in crashing and burning.

[-] 2 points by OccupyCapitolHill (197) 2 years ago

LOL ikr. OWS can do a better job of sinking its own boat than any mole affiliated with the NYPD or these mysterious "other enemies" ever can lol.

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[-] 0 points by Frankie (733) 2 years ago

lol : ) True.

[-] -2 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Cops infiltrate any protest and organization and try to have them do what the PTB want them to do, or else they do the provocations themselves. Not really news to the awake. When all is said and done the movement still must and will proceed.

[-] 4 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

You drink the koolaid a lot dont you

[-] 1 points by Jonas541 (72) 2 years ago

It is fairly well documented that federal agents routinely infiltrate radical groups as preemptive measure to demestic plots, however, I've never seen any documentation of them attempting to entrap people with in these groups.

[-] 0 points by TheStop (53) 2 years ago

thats because 100000 robbers have been reported so far in OWS and over 1 hundred rapes. You are a huge protest of thieves.

[-] 1 points by Jonas541 (72) 2 years ago

I'm actually not one of the protestors but I can see value in their message.

[-] -1 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

They infiltrate to find out what your next move is so they can be prepared. That's the way it works. Anyone around you could be a cop.

[-] 2 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

This doesn't sound stupid to anyone but me? Nobody here finds this in the least bit disturbing.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

No. They are cops and detectives. It's what they do and part of their job. I'm not too inclined to believe they start trouble to make ows look bad, but they certainly do try to find out the next moves in order to be prepared. Twitter makes it a hell of a lot easier.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

thank you for informing me how they, private detectives, work; with the lack of knowledge about their organization, my fertile mind thought of the most despicable charactertures for describing them.

[-] 0 points by theflamechild (27) 2 years ago

im a private detective and i approve this message

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

They aren't private detectives. They are city detectives.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

well, when you are working class, have a felony and can't pay taxes, they sure seem private to me. no?

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

no idea what you are talking about

[-] 1 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

And evidence for this is found where? Paranoia and opinions are not evidence.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

I have cops for friends. They work undercover. It's not illegal. I don't believe the garbage about agents provoking people - that's paranoia. They do their job to protect their city.

[-] 1 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

There we go. I didn't say it either.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Not just to find out the next move, but to disrupt and derail the movement and if possible set the agenda for the movement. Affinity groups plus holding individuals acountable for strange actions within the movement are good ideas, though I would imagine veterans of the fight know this well.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

See now that's paranoia or a way of placing blame of the violent OWSer on the cops. At least Oakland didn't try to blame black bloc on secret ops.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

No doubt there are disrupters who aren't cops but that is still the job of the provocateur.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

Fine. That's such a buzzword. They are people who are disrupting to cause chaos, but not cops.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

?????????? I would expect cops to disrupt and try to set the protest in a bad direction. You haven't been paying attention, or maybe it's my failure to communicate.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

I've been paying very close attention. The bridge debacle - nothing to do with cops telling you to get on the car lanes. One dumb ass OWSer jumping down and a bunch of people following his lead. But boy did the agent provoateur start spreading around. Even when OWS knew clearly who it was and said not to follow. Not cops. Idiots trying to get arrested, but that was the biggest media coup. Congrats.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I was driving a taxi and got jammed in traffic because of that action. I lost some money and time but that's the price of freedom, isn't it? OW is fighting for the majority. They even might make some mistakes.

Then you know what? Bloomberg let the movie company that is producing BATMAN mess up the Queensboro Bridge for two whole days.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

I sympathize. Lived in NYC twice myself and had to deal with movie shoots all the time. But that has nothing to do with cops provoking undercover.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Right, but my point is this: Protest especially this protest in these days is necessary. It could sometimes go wrong. IT can inconvenience people it means to represent. People get arrested and molested by cops.

On the other hand if it's about money, then what the hell, close a bridge! Block a street! take away a hundred parking spots! NO PROBLEMA!

Get it?

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

Not if you are infringing on my right to get home. I don't agree and don't get it. Hate the movie crews too.

Agree to disagree. There are ways to protest without causing as much disruption as possible. That bridge is a pretty major/singular artery. Regular streets in the city - take 'em. People can go around.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Not if they can't get into their apartments. And pity the guy who is crashing with a friend and sort of between cribs. He's sleeping on the sidewalk because his id doesn't match the address.

[-] 0 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

What do you mean? What guy?

[-] 1 points by Meesa (173) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Doing this at 3:00 PM as many have pointed out is so ill-timed. Instead of school buses, many kids here ride the subways to get to and from school. If just one kid gets hurt because of an "over-enthusiastic" OWS protester, it would be beyond tragic. By the way, my office was a-buzz about this topic -- many of the women I work with are moms and were appalled by the 3 PM timing.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You have a point. Still the plan as I can see it doesn't include blocking trains or tossing kids onto the tracks. True I guess a psycho/provocateur could do just that.

[-] 1 points by Meesa (173) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You know how crazy the subway already is -- a sick passenger, and the whole system is down. The plan may be innocuous, but will the actors be? I have my doubts.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

How does a movement that is cash poor get itself heard? Not easily and not without risk.

[-] 1 points by BobS (58) from Douglas, GA 2 years ago

GREAT IDEA.. so fringe on civil obedience now... Give the NYPD perfect reason to arrest all of you.

Who is running this show?? OWS is losing the respect of the people who supported you in the beginning. You have turned this whole movement into a fiasco which is losing support.

You have no agenda except for your freedom of speech?? Well Speak up with an agenda not coming up with stupid ways to piss off the local government. YOU WILL LOSE!

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm not dvocating for that at all. I simply posted that the plan OW has for the subway is not such a terrible one as some trolls and others are saying, though as in all things, the enemy might try to turn it around on itself. That's part of the risk of struggle and not everything is going to work out.

[-] 1 points by theflamechild (27) 2 years ago

occupy the subways by jumping in front of oncoming subways

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

see ya there! you go, girl!

[-] 1 points by bigbangbilly (594) 2 years ago

The tactics seem similar to my idea not that there is anything wrong with it. http://occupywallst.org/forum/flash-protesting-an-idea-to-consider/

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Your idea is interesting. People will complain but our movement starts with many disadvantages and can't ever be perfect and please everyone. We lack funds, we lack major media, we lack public leaders. (I refuse to believe there are no leaders, but in the way things go it's best they aren't always out in front with their names. The situation reminds me of my Army days. rank insignia were obscured because otherwise "the enemy" would pop the officers first.)

[-] 1 points by bigbangbilly (594) 2 years ago

But we have still have a bit of subtly and the metaphorical shadows.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

ok....

[-] 1 points by TheTideIsTurning (8) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

I think that taking stories, and creativity, to the subways, can be a great way to inspire more people to understand the depth and purpose of this movement. Direct action that's constructive and creative. : ) Also, maybe asking folks on the subway to share their own stories could be a way to more deeply weave the webs of community. I hope, tho, that the focus isn't shutting the subways down. That would upset a lot of people - many who can't afford to take cabs.

Seems, sadly, that some people don't appreciate the purpose behind the protests, the dedication to standing up for your beliefs, and understand that this is a complex puzzle to solve and that this incarnation of the movement is in its infancy, (and has done a pretty awesome job in two months!) I see problems with the movement also, but I look with understanding that this is a microcosm of humanity with tremendous potential as well as imperfections and shadows that all people have in common.

That said, I think that if subways are shut down, it would make the rest of the 99% angry and seriously undermine the support that OWS has gained and needs to keep growing. But if subway riders are given a memorable experience of creative activism, and asked for their own stories also ...

Stay strong, creative, and peaceful. You are loved and appreciated.

[-] 1 points by Meesa (173) from New York, NY 2 years ago

We're not riding the subways to have a kumbaya moment. ;-) Still, it's an interesting concept -- not that New Yorkers haven't seen everything on the subways already. Including homeless people talking about their life situations - one guy told me how he was robbed of his clean socks. I gave him a few bucks. I just beg for everyone to keep it civil, keep the trains moving. As others have pointed out, 3 PM coincides with kids getting out of school. It would be beyond tragic if some kid got hurt because of some uber-protester heroics.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

In a worse case scenario the actions will still be remembered in the future as part of the rebirth of our democracy, just as the much maligned and sometimes attacked by bystanders anti Vietnam war protests are now remembered as high points. Man, the truth is the majority never supported the protests at all!

[-] 1 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

The problems of the World cannot be solved by telling people a story in the subway.

[-] -1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Just a little bit towards the answer. Step by step.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

A good perspective that needs to be brought to the attention of most New Yorkers involved with OWS. There are more people in the United States outside Oakland and NYC. OWS needs to figure out how to appeal to the interior.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Most people already "get" and support the sense of OW, even if they don't realize it (yet). The problem is to make that leap. I trust the people who have had their sleeves rolled up and have stuck their necks out and taken beatings and pepper spray to find the way forward.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

That statement sounds like mind control. I don't agree. I think you are underestimating the American people as a whole. What matters to someone in rural Arkansas is not parallel to what someone living in NYC sees as important. Some issues are universal, but people in other regions have a completely different perspective. And they are not stupid, as many urban dwellers assume.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't see an urban/rural split here, though this country does not have many many rural citizens. Most people are feeling that money, not the voice of the people, is what gets heard in the halls of power, most people agree that the rich are not taxed enough, most people agree that the divide between rich and poor is too wide and has to be redressed. I think those more or less encapsulate what OW is about and mainstream media brainwashing not withstanding, it's pretty much the majority consensus. OW has forced at least somewhat, these concerns into the public discourse. Bloomberg is a fine symbol of what is wrong.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

I don't agree. Although I do agree with some of the problems that OWS speaks of, I do not trust the origin or method. Everyone I know feels the same way.

It's not the issues, it's the tactics. It reeks of Marxism and Anarchy - a sure fire way to repel the masses. OWS needs to study people outside the big City. OWS needs to study American patriotism. Until they can understand the masses, it's a wasted attempt. People agree with many of the problems.

When we start hearing false percentages and class warfare, it is a strong indicator that ignorance and or radicals are trying to enact another system that the majority opposes. Come down south. Go out west. Study how different these people are.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The rich have been waging class warfare. OW is a sign that the rest of us are starting to notice this and not much liking it.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

I don't agree. The rich are not holding you or I from acquiring our own wealth.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

It's a matter of opinion, I suppose. I agree with Warren Buffet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning E-MAIL PRINT REPRINTS

By BEN STEIN Published: November 26, 2006 NOT long ago, I had the pleasure of a lengthy meeting with one of the smartest men on the planet, Warren E. Buffett, the chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway, in his unpretentious offices in Omaha. We talked of many things that, I hope, will inspire me for years to come. But one of the main subjects was taxes. Mr. Buffett, who probably does not feel sick when he sees his MasterCard bill in his mailbox the way I do, is at least as exercised about the tax system as I am.

Illustration by Philip Anderson Put simply, the rich pay a lot of taxes as a total percentage of taxes collected, but they don’t pay a lot of taxes as a percentage of what they can afford to pay, or as a percentage of what the government needs to close the deficit gap

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

I respect you for caring. I just hope you realize that you can only control your own life. Why not go out, start a company of your own and leave all this doom and gloom behind?

Trust me, the majority sees the problems. The majority will not let the problems continue. We have your back.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

fine then. let's stop arguing.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

I am not arguing. I am debating. A very healthy thing.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm getting tired and we are going around in circles.

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 2 years ago

That's fine. Even if I don't agree with you, I will still listen to your side.

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[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Hey, downtowner, welcome to the world, where things are not always the way you want them to be.

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 2 years ago

Hold the subway doors open for the mayor

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

his bodyguard/cop drivers take him from his diggs at 17 East 79th Street to the subway at 77th and Lexington where he rides to City Hall on many days.

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 2 years ago

I'm curious has he ever taken a subway ride?

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yes. He gets chauffered from his mansion at 17 Est 79th Street to the subway at 77th Street and Lexington Avenue and boards a train with his bodyguards. They say once a month. I don't know how often he does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSVfIyj-4u4

They really sweat him here on the subway.

[-] 0 points by steven2002 (363) 2 years ago

The OWS people should take over the Subway, they should walk down on the tracks and lay down. The first and last person should grab the third rail. This will bring the Subways to a halt, we'll show the 1%.

[-] 1 points by Meesa (173) from New York, NY 2 years ago

OK, you're being a little flip. BUT…it is because of statements like THIS that the NYPD is going to keep a watchful eye on the 11/17 subway occupation. Maybe 100 protesters will just swap stories and stay civil. It's the 10 protesters that think it WOULD be a great thing to bring the subway to a halt, and the 100 others who follow like lemmings. Mob mentality is not safe on subway platforms.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Tell me what station you'll be at and what time. I want to watch you do this.

[-] 0 points by steven2002 (363) 2 years ago

Bring dark glasses to protect your eyes from the flash.

[-] 0 points by nikka (228) 2 years ago

Yeah. People love it when they see packs of hoodlums and vagrants crowding onto the subway. Makes them feel all kinds of warmth and empathy. Great PR move. Love it!

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I know that "people" (ie those of means) hate to see "hoodlums and vagrants" (people who have little means). That's why so many of them love the gentrification of the city and applaud stop and frisk and police brutality.

[-] 0 points by steven2002 (363) 2 years ago

Yes, take over the Subway's. Lay down on the tracks and make sure you grab the third rail. I will bring the city to it's knees.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Sounds like a plan you should follow. See you there!

[-] 0 points by Rob (881) 2 years ago

Stay away from the 3rd rail when you get shoved on to the tracks by some highly irritated New Yorkers.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Cops might do that. True. We must be on our toes.

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 2 years ago

Climb aboard and OWS hopes that you will enjoy the ride as much as we will.