Forum Post: The subway action seems good.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 15, 2011, 6:33 p.m. EST by alouis
(1511)
from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://occupywallst.org/action/november-17th/
The subway actions don't strike me as being so terrible as people here say. They are plans to bring the story to the people. It doesn't seem that OW is planning to go on the tracks, hold subway doors open, etc. We can though expect undercover cops and other enemies to do these things.
Yes. Plenty of private security now playing role of provocateur in an attempt to discredit the movement. We can't stop them. Can't control that.
What we can control is our reaction. Provocateur will try to provoke a knee-jerk reaction wo we need to train so our knee jeer reaction is productive. We should practice response to provocateurs several times a day. That way, in the heat of the moment, our natural reaction will be a productive one instead of playing into their hands.
If provocateur attempts to cause violence or damage property, sit down immediately, everyone and point at the person and say "This person is not part of our group. We are nonviolent." Then, the story on the nightly news will be this lone guy looking foolish and movement wins even more support.
nice
I don't know how practical this plan is but I agree with your sentiment.
Thanks. It'll work in practice.
Nightly news do lie at times.
Right. Do you think the 1% or anyone in power uses the sub-way ? You're simply going to annoy the crap out of the common people you claim to represent. Do you think that's smart ?
Some will be annoyed, some will be neutral, some will be glad to see OW. From what I see there is no OW plan to actually stop the trians, though I'd expect there is a Bloomberg/NYPD plan to do just that.
If there are just a FEW OWS folks and there remains plenty of room for the average folks who use them daily, then it's probably OK. I don't sense this is the plan, however. We can't afford to alienate the common man.
I can only go by the plan that OW has published and that i gave the link to. It doesn't seem to include stopping trains from running. Again-- I'd expect the NYPD to do just that.
I concur. Go away, you are ruining what little us 99ers have left
Yeah, watch out for the spies and secret agents! Right, because this movement needs help in crashing and burning.
LOL ikr. OWS can do a better job of sinking its own boat than any mole affiliated with the NYPD or these mysterious "other enemies" ever can lol.
[Removed]
lol : ) True.
Cops infiltrate any protest and organization and try to have them do what the PTB want them to do, or else they do the provocations themselves. Not really news to the awake. When all is said and done the movement still must and will proceed.
You drink the koolaid a lot dont you
It is fairly well documented that federal agents routinely infiltrate radical groups as preemptive measure to demestic plots, however, I've never seen any documentation of them attempting to entrap people with in these groups.
thats because 100000 robbers have been reported so far in OWS and over 1 hundred rapes. You are a huge protest of thieves.
I'm actually not one of the protestors but I can see value in their message.
They infiltrate to find out what your next move is so they can be prepared. That's the way it works. Anyone around you could be a cop.
This doesn't sound stupid to anyone but me? Nobody here finds this in the least bit disturbing.
No. They are cops and detectives. It's what they do and part of their job. I'm not too inclined to believe they start trouble to make ows look bad, but they certainly do try to find out the next moves in order to be prepared. Twitter makes it a hell of a lot easier.
thank you for informing me how they, private detectives, work; with the lack of knowledge about their organization, my fertile mind thought of the most despicable charactertures for describing them.
im a private detective and i approve this message
They aren't private detectives. They are city detectives.
well, when you are working class, have a felony and can't pay taxes, they sure seem private to me. no?
no idea what you are talking about
And evidence for this is found where? Paranoia and opinions are not evidence.
I have cops for friends. They work undercover. It's not illegal. I don't believe the garbage about agents provoking people - that's paranoia. They do their job to protect their city.
There we go. I didn't say it either.
Not just to find out the next move, but to disrupt and derail the movement and if possible set the agenda for the movement. Affinity groups plus holding individuals acountable for strange actions within the movement are good ideas, though I would imagine veterans of the fight know this well.
See now that's paranoia or a way of placing blame of the violent OWSer on the cops. At least Oakland didn't try to blame black bloc on secret ops.
No doubt there are disrupters who aren't cops but that is still the job of the provocateur.
Fine. That's such a buzzword. They are people who are disrupting to cause chaos, but not cops.
?????????? I would expect cops to disrupt and try to set the protest in a bad direction. You haven't been paying attention, or maybe it's my failure to communicate.
I've been paying very close attention. The bridge debacle - nothing to do with cops telling you to get on the car lanes. One dumb ass OWSer jumping down and a bunch of people following his lead. But boy did the agent provoateur start spreading around. Even when OWS knew clearly who it was and said not to follow. Not cops. Idiots trying to get arrested, but that was the biggest media coup. Congrats.
I was driving a taxi and got jammed in traffic because of that action. I lost some money and time but that's the price of freedom, isn't it? OW is fighting for the majority. They even might make some mistakes.
Then you know what? Bloomberg let the movie company that is producing BATMAN mess up the Queensboro Bridge for two whole days.
I sympathize. Lived in NYC twice myself and had to deal with movie shoots all the time. But that has nothing to do with cops provoking undercover.
Right, but my point is this: Protest especially this protest in these days is necessary. It could sometimes go wrong. IT can inconvenience people it means to represent. People get arrested and molested by cops.
On the other hand if it's about money, then what the hell, close a bridge! Block a street! take away a hundred parking spots! NO PROBLEMA!
Get it?
Not if you are infringing on my right to get home. I don't agree and don't get it. Hate the movie crews too.
Agree to disagree. There are ways to protest without causing as much disruption as possible. That bridge is a pretty major/singular artery. Regular streets in the city - take 'em. People can go around.
Not if they can't get into their apartments. And pity the guy who is crashing with a friend and sort of between cribs. He's sleeping on the sidewalk because his id doesn't match the address.
What do you mean? What guy?
Doing this at 3:00 PM as many have pointed out is so ill-timed. Instead of school buses, many kids here ride the subways to get to and from school. If just one kid gets hurt because of an "over-enthusiastic" OWS protester, it would be beyond tragic. By the way, my office was a-buzz about this topic -- many of the women I work with are moms and were appalled by the 3 PM timing.
You have a point. Still the plan as I can see it doesn't include blocking trains or tossing kids onto the tracks. True I guess a psycho/provocateur could do just that.
You know how crazy the subway already is -- a sick passenger, and the whole system is down. The plan may be innocuous, but will the actors be? I have my doubts.
How does a movement that is cash poor get itself heard? Not easily and not without risk.
GREAT IDEA.. so fringe on civil obedience now... Give the NYPD perfect reason to arrest all of you.
Who is running this show?? OWS is losing the respect of the people who supported you in the beginning. You have turned this whole movement into a fiasco which is losing support.
You have no agenda except for your freedom of speech?? Well Speak up with an agenda not coming up with stupid ways to piss off the local government. YOU WILL LOSE!
I'm not dvocating for that at all. I simply posted that the plan OW has for the subway is not such a terrible one as some trolls and others are saying, though as in all things, the enemy might try to turn it around on itself. That's part of the risk of struggle and not everything is going to work out.
occupy the subways by jumping in front of oncoming subways
see ya there! you go, girl!
The tactics seem similar to my idea not that there is anything wrong with it. http://occupywallst.org/forum/flash-protesting-an-idea-to-consider/
Your idea is interesting. People will complain but our movement starts with many disadvantages and can't ever be perfect and please everyone. We lack funds, we lack major media, we lack public leaders. (I refuse to believe there are no leaders, but in the way things go it's best they aren't always out in front with their names. The situation reminds me of my Army days. rank insignia were obscured because otherwise "the enemy" would pop the officers first.)
But we have still have a bit of subtly and the metaphorical shadows.
ok....
I think that taking stories, and creativity, to the subways, can be a great way to inspire more people to understand the depth and purpose of this movement. Direct action that's constructive and creative. : ) Also, maybe asking folks on the subway to share their own stories could be a way to more deeply weave the webs of community. I hope, tho, that the focus isn't shutting the subways down. That would upset a lot of people - many who can't afford to take cabs.
Seems, sadly, that some people don't appreciate the purpose behind the protests, the dedication to standing up for your beliefs, and understand that this is a complex puzzle to solve and that this incarnation of the movement is in its infancy, (and has done a pretty awesome job in two months!) I see problems with the movement also, but I look with understanding that this is a microcosm of humanity with tremendous potential as well as imperfections and shadows that all people have in common.
That said, I think that if subways are shut down, it would make the rest of the 99% angry and seriously undermine the support that OWS has gained and needs to keep growing. But if subway riders are given a memorable experience of creative activism, and asked for their own stories also ...
Stay strong, creative, and peaceful. You are loved and appreciated.
We're not riding the subways to have a kumbaya moment. ;-) Still, it's an interesting concept -- not that New Yorkers haven't seen everything on the subways already. Including homeless people talking about their life situations - one guy told me how he was robbed of his clean socks. I gave him a few bucks. I just beg for everyone to keep it civil, keep the trains moving. As others have pointed out, 3 PM coincides with kids getting out of school. It would be beyond tragic if some kid got hurt because of some uber-protester heroics.
In a worse case scenario the actions will still be remembered in the future as part of the rebirth of our democracy, just as the much maligned and sometimes attacked by bystanders anti Vietnam war protests are now remembered as high points. Man, the truth is the majority never supported the protests at all!
The problems of the World cannot be solved by telling people a story in the subway.
Just a little bit towards the answer. Step by step.
A good perspective that needs to be brought to the attention of most New Yorkers involved with OWS. There are more people in the United States outside Oakland and NYC. OWS needs to figure out how to appeal to the interior.
Most people already "get" and support the sense of OW, even if they don't realize it (yet). The problem is to make that leap. I trust the people who have had their sleeves rolled up and have stuck their necks out and taken beatings and pepper spray to find the way forward.
That statement sounds like mind control. I don't agree. I think you are underestimating the American people as a whole. What matters to someone in rural Arkansas is not parallel to what someone living in NYC sees as important. Some issues are universal, but people in other regions have a completely different perspective. And they are not stupid, as many urban dwellers assume.
I don't see an urban/rural split here, though this country does not have many many rural citizens. Most people are feeling that money, not the voice of the people, is what gets heard in the halls of power, most people agree that the rich are not taxed enough, most people agree that the divide between rich and poor is too wide and has to be redressed. I think those more or less encapsulate what OW is about and mainstream media brainwashing not withstanding, it's pretty much the majority consensus. OW has forced at least somewhat, these concerns into the public discourse. Bloomberg is a fine symbol of what is wrong.
I don't agree. Although I do agree with some of the problems that OWS speaks of, I do not trust the origin or method. Everyone I know feels the same way.
It's not the issues, it's the tactics. It reeks of Marxism and Anarchy - a sure fire way to repel the masses. OWS needs to study people outside the big City. OWS needs to study American patriotism. Until they can understand the masses, it's a wasted attempt. People agree with many of the problems.
When we start hearing false percentages and class warfare, it is a strong indicator that ignorance and or radicals are trying to enact another system that the majority opposes. Come down south. Go out west. Study how different these people are.
The rich have been waging class warfare. OW is a sign that the rest of us are starting to notice this and not much liking it.
I don't agree. The rich are not holding you or I from acquiring our own wealth.
It's a matter of opinion, I suppose. I agree with Warren Buffet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html
EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS In Class Warfare, Guess Which Class Is Winning E-MAIL PRINT REPRINTS
By BEN STEIN Published: November 26, 2006 NOT long ago, I had the pleasure of a lengthy meeting with one of the smartest men on the planet, Warren E. Buffett, the chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway, in his unpretentious offices in Omaha. We talked of many things that, I hope, will inspire me for years to come. But one of the main subjects was taxes. Mr. Buffett, who probably does not feel sick when he sees his MasterCard bill in his mailbox the way I do, is at least as exercised about the tax system as I am.
Illustration by Philip Anderson Put simply, the rich pay a lot of taxes as a total percentage of taxes collected, but they don’t pay a lot of taxes as a percentage of what they can afford to pay, or as a percentage of what the government needs to close the deficit gap
I respect you for caring. I just hope you realize that you can only control your own life. Why not go out, start a company of your own and leave all this doom and gloom behind?
Trust me, the majority sees the problems. The majority will not let the problems continue. We have your back.
fine then. let's stop arguing.
I am not arguing. I am debating. A very healthy thing.
I'm getting tired and we are going around in circles.
That's fine. Even if I don't agree with you, I will still listen to your side.
[Removed]
Hey, downtowner, welcome to the world, where things are not always the way you want them to be.
Hold the subway doors open for the mayor
his bodyguard/cop drivers take him from his diggs at 17 East 79th Street to the subway at 77th and Lexington where he rides to City Hall on many days.
I'm curious has he ever taken a subway ride?
Yes. He gets chauffered from his mansion at 17 Est 79th Street to the subway at 77th Street and Lexington Avenue and boards a train with his bodyguards. They say once a month. I don't know how often he does this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSVfIyj-4u4
They really sweat him here on the subway.
The OWS people should take over the Subway, they should walk down on the tracks and lay down. The first and last person should grab the third rail. This will bring the Subways to a halt, we'll show the 1%.
OK, you're being a little flip. BUT…it is because of statements like THIS that the NYPD is going to keep a watchful eye on the 11/17 subway occupation. Maybe 100 protesters will just swap stories and stay civil. It's the 10 protesters that think it WOULD be a great thing to bring the subway to a halt, and the 100 others who follow like lemmings. Mob mentality is not safe on subway platforms.
Tell me what station you'll be at and what time. I want to watch you do this.
Bring dark glasses to protect your eyes from the flash.
Yeah. People love it when they see packs of hoodlums and vagrants crowding onto the subway. Makes them feel all kinds of warmth and empathy. Great PR move. Love it!
I know that "people" (ie those of means) hate to see "hoodlums and vagrants" (people who have little means). That's why so many of them love the gentrification of the city and applaud stop and frisk and police brutality.
Yes, take over the Subway's. Lay down on the tracks and make sure you grab the third rail. I will bring the city to it's knees.
Sounds like a plan you should follow. See you there!
Stay away from the 3rd rail when you get shoved on to the tracks by some highly irritated New Yorkers.
Cops might do that. True. We must be on our toes.
Climb aboard and OWS hopes that you will enjoy the ride as much as we will.