Forum Post: The real problem is the FED !
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 2:11 p.m. EST by antifed
(2)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The real problem of our economy is THE FED ! 'Wall Street' is just a by-product of the fraudulous Federal Reserve.
The FED prints all the money and redistributes our saved money (that's socialism ! Not capitalism ! ) to the crooks on Wall Street.
If the Fed and their printing press weren't there, the crooks on Wall Street wouldn't and couldn't misbehave this much with our money !
The real problem of this all is within the Fed AND within our Congress who refuse to stop this nonsense !
Nobody should have the ability power to create money out of thin air !
End the FED !
Read the constitution ! Gold/silver standard, NOW !
Yes! http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
Speaking of slavery...why not find out how Wall Street began, what was first traded on wall street which created the wealth for many and then check out how and with what the Banking system was started. Then you can stop pretending since most of you would jump at the chance to work on wall street anyway. What is happening on this planet ain't about you 99% and never has been. It is all a fluke which is coming to a head. Anarchy will not be the answer. The only reason these protestors have not been shot down yet (remember Kent State?) is because of the Federal Government and Congress. GET A GRIP ON REALITY.....THIS REALLY AIN'T ABOUT YOU ALL!!! Where were you all when past issues were being voted on??? Oh...right...STARBUCKS!!!
I have always been for a gold and silver standard but two things must happen for that to take place. A major correction on the value of the dollar is first, second will be a reserve that truly backs up the paper. I and most people don't believe the story about all the gold in Fort Knox, it's a Santa story.
There are trillions of dollars out there in electronic circulation that will never exist in real life, they are just electronic ones and zeros. Get rid of those fake money schemes and you will fix this very broken economy.
So, anarchy is the solution? How will yu all feed yourselves, clothe your children, stay clean, and who in the hell is gonna give you all jobs? Face it, if you all had the chance you would take the very positions that are eventually going to be abandoned by those on Wall Street as well as across the country. None of you want to look at the big picture here!! Find out how Wall Street was created, what was first traded on Wall Street creating the wealth for the "many" which eventually led to the creation of the first banking system here and abroad. Get your heads out of the sand, none of you are serious about this fluke, you just want your old system back!! Unfortunately, it ain't gonna happen because this doomed World Economy is collapsing all around us and Wall Street is only a small part of it...Face it... THIS AIN'T ABOUT YOU ALL!!!!!
Yea kick these terrorists outta the gov't...they're just laughing at us
It is not what backs the currency, but who controls the supply.
If we bring back a gold standard, the oligarchs will corner the gold market and stay in power.
We DO need to end The Fed. We DO need to end (or at least constrict to a very small level) the fractional reserve system.
We do NOT need to hand over the reigns of a new monetary system to the oligarchs who can corner any commodity.
However, competing currencies is a good idea.
My idea of how "competing" currencies could work well is with one as a means of exchange and the other used for savings. The federal government should issue its own debt-free money, spending it into existence on infrustructure, etc. The states (or the federal government--never banks on their own) could issue gold or silver coins as a secondary currency that floats in price against the exchange currency. The exchange currency would be required to pay taxes and be always accepted for exchange. The secondary currency could be used for exchange but only between two willing participants. The primary function of the secondary currency would be for savings. It would be the same as buying gold or silver to store away for the future is now, but with no taxes to pay when redeeming the coins for the exchange currency. When states or the federal government sell the gold or silver currency, they could actually charge a bit more than the value of gold or silver at that moment. They would be selling a "savings unit" that is slightly more expensive than regular gold or silver because it would not get taxed when sold back to the government for primary exchange currency. The government would actually make a little money on the front end of the deal.
I agree, but who can you trust to control supply? I like Bill Still, but I think putting into congress' hands will lead to the same problem we have now, but at least the money would be debt free. But I think congress will continue inflationary policy, which is stealing.
I do push that competing currencies idea because it is a transition from what we have now, to a free and sound money. Lettting the market determine what is best. I think eventually we will go under a SILVER standard -because it services better for common transactions, along with a free floating gold standard. I am against imposing any specific money on people, its just that if I had to predict what money would dominate in a free market in money, I am forecasting silver, with gold and potentially copper freely floating against it.
I dont believe in an income tax, only when the money is spent. You this ensures people can save what they earn, and when they benefit from the economy (consume), they pay for that. You shouldnt have to pay to work. You pay when you participate in the economy.
Except its still exploitation of a system and there will ultimately be winners and losers where the losers will starve.
Of course if gold became the standard, how would credits be factored in?
Explain?
I endorse these statements
@ feDUP
Ive been realizing this much much longer, I think it was important to spread the message here, just to inform people who do not know...
And yes, @ quitelike, the misunderstanding of capitalism from people (thank to smuck Michael Moore) is bothering me too...
Coorperatism is what we have today, if you ask me, that's a form of socialism. Involuntary redistribution of capital.
(don't get me started feDup, your name tells me we are on the same view on this one, Austrian Economics FTW)
I like the OWS because at least there is a forum for us to debate these things. We need to use this to spread austrian ideas to people who are angry that they are getting screwed, and show them how its actually being done in the business cycle, instead of generalized finger pointing. Only by doing this can we really topple the structure of competitive advantage.
You might want to check out http://actnowplan.wordpress.com
The disruption of the economy and commerce is the only way to get any reaction from the capitalists. All they want is to keep all the machines running. The protests works as long as the rich lose money.
The protest only succeeds if there is a fair playing field for the opportunity to get rich. Not all rich people are corrupt, but I do agree that those wealthy who mainpulate the system for economic advantage should be prosecuted and their assets seized. But i do NOT advocate taking from an innocent rich man and giving to the poor. I believe that economic equality is when all people have the same opportunity to attain wealth, not spreading the wealth among all people. Your ability to attain wealth should be based on your merits in a free society. I aim for that free society, where there are no favors for the rich or the poor or the young or the old. you are allowed to reap the benefits of your success, and suffer from you failures.
OK, but I'm not rich and I'm losing money.
That great .... how do we get there ?
competing currencies.. No legal tender laws, let people decide what money should be. Good will drive out bad, and we will get on some sort of standard (in history this has always led to gold or silver)
You're just realizing this now? Seriously...people just need to overthrow the government, but you guys look like BIG PUSSIES protesting Wall Street.
Gotta use the energy of a crowd angry about being ripped off, and diagnose the real problem. They are making their presence known
It is just starting ... thanks for joining in
THANK GOD there are others here trying to inform people. So much hatred toward capitalism by people who dont understand capitalism. Their intention is good, but please dont get co opted by the dems like the tea party co opted by repubs.
Capitalism is not the problem, fraud within capitalism by corporations and govt is the problem
Capitalism & the Free Market, are not Freedom. Their belief in money, is mind controlling you into believing that you SHOULD HAVE TO PAY to Exist on the Planet. "If you don't work, you don't eat" is ENEMY PROPAGANDA, meant to sway your heart & mind into thinking it's ok for you to let police, harm people for eating food & forcing them out of their home, if they don't continue to pay rent or their mortgage. We must end the Tyranny of money, for it rules us ALL, by buying, a bunch of guns, which the powers that be, stick in your face. Please, try to PROVE ME WRONG, i need a good laugh today?
Money was great up until the last century, before we knew any better.
That was because we were in a free market capitalist society in the 1800s. We could do business anyway we wanted, we rose and fell through our own success and failure. We were punished for infringing on the rights of others, that was the regulator. Money is only a problem now because it isn't free. The FED has total control over the worlds money, creating booms and busts through their policies. Money is a tool of the economy, but it should be chosen by the market participants, not forced upon us by a govt.
the free market doesn't regulate it self, there are no protections in place to keep people from using money as a tool of oppression. People starve because they don't have any money, not because the food doesn't exist. They just can't have it, unless they SUBJECT themselves to employment. This is Economic Slavery.
BUT if you use a money as a tool of oppression, you are violating that person's civil rights, and should be punishable under law.
people starve because they dont have food, not because they dont have money. Cant they grow their own if they dont want to work? And if you dont work, or produce anything, why should anyone help you? If you sit around all day watching tv, what does society owe you? You have done shit. We are responsible for ourselves, meaning we must take care of ourselves. I argue that regulations stop people from growing their own. As far as employment, the regulations stop people from starting business through permits and licensing. have you ever tried to start a biz?
No not everyone has land to grow their own food & ownership as such, keeps people from having that land, because they must Subject themselves to employment to get money to get said land.
Enforcement are by Government, Paid For with Money!
& yes licences & permits are bullshit too, we have no argument there.
well yea. You get a job, build your capital and invest in yourself whether it be a home, a business, whatever. Where else do you think capital comes from? You can pick berries and shit from the forest, sell at market for capital. You can fix someones car and they give you land in return to grow food on. are you saying that employment is a problem? Or that people have to take low paying jobs so they can get a start? I have to say, if you have no skills, the job you will get will be low paying. When you learn more skills, you will be in higher demand, thus earn a higher wage. I agree that govt is paid for with money, but again, that is a fascist system, not free market capitalism... A merger of govt and biz, not a system ruled by law. Stopping corporate financing is key to a free market.
"well yea. You get a job".... Subject yourself to slavery or you don't eat, just admit the truth.
work is not slavery.
if you must subject yourself to employment to eat, or live in a place, then "You are a slave, Neo."
So if you own a restaurant, are you a slave owner? You produce quality food to nourish the area, and give people compensation for their work, because they help you run your biz, which provides for your needs. They in turn use that compensation to provide for their needs. How is this slavery if both sides are satisfied, AND that person may quit whenever they please? Just because people have to labor to acquire food and shelter doesn't mean they are slaves. It means they are being responsible for their own well being. Is growing food not labor? Is being a property manager not labor? Employment is just access to money which can be traded for other products (the result of someone else's labor). If you don't work to eat or for shelter, where are you going to get food and shelter from? Even if someone gives it to you, and they are the source, they must labor for you (how they acquired the food and land).
You have it backwards, if everyone was given free food and free shelter, those who provide the food and shelter are slaves to those who eat it and live on their property.
The slavery comes into play because of the FED, who own a monopoly on the money.
You trade labor for money. Money for anything in the market. They create money (virtually at no labor cost because you can always add zeros) and get anything in the marketplace.
They can obtain someone's labor for free through fractional lending and printing money. They provide money, which all market participants acquire in order to operate in the marketplace. Legal tender laws make it so that I can't create my own money to compete within the marketplace. This allows the FED to acquire anything in the marketplace because there is no alternative that will allow for labor to be traded
yes they are slaves, not they can't quit, unless they want to starve or get put on the street for not paying rent. If you subject yourself to employment for federal reserve notes, you are a slave. & yes, a restaurant is essentially a capitalist gangbang & the employees are the whores.
Why cant you quit? Why cant you start your own biz? Regulations and govt intervention. Then you are living to make FRNs because of legal tender laws. And those FRNs are manipulated by govt and the FED. So its not work that enslaves its the monetary system and govt force
"So its not work that enslaves its the monetary system and govt force"
YES!!!!!
why do those people have to follow the orders of the owner? thats slavery. the owner makes a profit and the workers get a wage. you call it compensation but its not compensation its the price of their labor power, what they sell themselves for. but yeah thats what your silly free market blabber really boils down to: a justification for capitalism, making profit with wage labor.
Slavery = when people are forced to work. People dont have to follow orders, they can quit. And owners require workers to follow the rules of their business, so it can function properly and pay them what they feel will keep good employees there. Compensation is the agreed upon price for the work being done. If anyone can do the job, there is a large labor market, and you can offer low wages for low skill level. As the skill level rises, the labor market decreases, so you must offer higher wages to draw the more skilled workers.
If the owner doesnt make a profit, so that he can acquire money to trade so he can survive, why would he have a business? Yes you do sell your labor in the marketplace. This is called trade. I cant build a house. Im willing to sell my labor in the market so I can acquire money to buy a house.
Why is making a profit bad? When you provide your labor for money, you are profiting from your labor. Exactly, Capitalism = profiting (benefiting) from the fruits of your labor. WHY IS THIS BAD? You havent even addressed any of my issues.
How is this slavery if both sides are satisfied? Just because people have to labor to acquire food and shelter doesn't mean they are slaves. It means they are being responsible for their own well being. Is growing food not labor? Is being a property manager not labor? If you don't work to eat or for shelter, where are you going to get food and shelter from? You really need to get a better understanding of economics before you try to have an intelligent discussion about monetary policy.
your "understanding" of economy is justifying it, not understanding anything. how are you not forced to work when everything costs money and the only way you get money is selling yourself on the labor market? its not the price for work, its the price for labor power, l2read a working contract. i dont want to waste my time educating you about economy, you can do that yourself. why is making a profit bad? because it belongs to the workers who worked for it, not the owner. if you want to doubt my intelligence then prove anything i say is wrong. you are right about it being not slavery because slavery is the whole worker being the commodity while capitalism is only the labor power being a commodity. still both is shit and the term slavery is used to point that out.
NOTHING IS FREE! which is why everything costs money. Money is only the in between. I dont think you understand what money is and how it functions in the economy. Explain it as simply as you can, and then elaborate.
The labor belongs to the workers who sell it on the market. Therefore the LABOR owned by the PERSON and is sold by the PERSON. The PERSON is not what is being sold. The OWNER buys the labor from the PERSON, at an agreed upon wage, he doesn't forcibly take it.
Everyone can choose what they do, and decide what to accept for payment., whether or not someone else is willing to pay you that price is another story, you may over/under value your skillset
You see, I feel like I AM wasting my time trying to educate you but I continue because you are very misunderstood about how things really work, and this is the problem with this movement. The demands are not solutions, many will cause even more economic problems.
CLEARLY if you think having a job is slavery, you don't understand economics. Do you have a job?
ah now u get aggressive, that means ive been able to question your views. i repeat: you dont pay for labor in a contract, you pay for labor power, you pay money per hour, not money per piece. you dont own labor as a worker, you own labor power. money is the measure of value, ive explained that already in this forum, and ill explain what value is too if you care because you dont know it. you are clearly not an economist and you are wasting my time with repeating your amateur views and making me read them. what has me having a job or not have to do with your arguments being bad? id like to say no i dont have one because i would like to see throwing dirt and discredit yourself on a moral base too when you succeeded already on a science base, but it would not be the truth.
I am just asking if you are considering yourself a slave. Im not even disagreeing with your argument, Im trying to understand it, and ask you questions, that you arent answering.
I disagree in that you do pay for labor.. How its is broken up is up to the people who agree on it. If I agree to sell my "labor power" I dont see the difference, just because your get paid on an hourly rate?
I argue that I do own my labor because I can decide to labor or not to labor. No one is forcing me to do anything. Ok, money is a measure of value, I can buy that, although that doesnt really cover the whole aspect of money we can go off that. When the supply of money increases, that measurement that you hold up all other items to changes, which effects the market. It should be like a ruler, 12 inches should always be one foot. x dollars should buy you y oil (assuming market conditions dont change) When you introduce inflation, the price of oil rises even though oils market condition didnt change.
Why do you persist on insulting me because I have different views. I at least am open to questioning myself, while you are completely set in your views. You dont attempt to see it from my perspective when all I have tried to do is understand yours, and tell you where I disagree and why. Youre arguments are based on "Im right youre wrong" followed by calling me names.
You never addressed my issues and I will only reply back if you do. This will be the 3rd time I ask you... How is this slavery if both sides are satisfied? Just because people have to labor to acquire food and shelter doesn't mean they are slaves. It means they are being responsible for their own well being. Is growing food not labor? Is being a property manager not labor? If you don't work to eat or for shelter, where are you going to get food and shelter from? You really need to get a better understanding of economics before you try to have an intelligent discussion about monetary policy.
you wrote that last sentence in every post and keep insisting im the one who is insulting? im proving you wrong constantly, i offer you knowledge not only ignorance and your pissing me off by not learning anything and insisting on your satisfaciton of everyone which exists only in your fantasy. people are heavily pissed all around, thats the reason they go on the streets all over the world. what is the difference in labor power and labor? that the labor your create belongs to the one hiring you and only the labor power belongs to you, that is the difference! try to grasp!
i already explained what is forcing you to work, your will to survive! now make an argument if you doubt this and stop your "oh i can do whatever i want" .. if people can do whatever they want then why do they work for 7 bucks an hour generating profits for the rich and not be the rich themselves by inheriting a few bilions or owning a huge business? blame incoming here or what is your explanation? do you think thats as good as a hobby?
you dont understand money, its purpose as a measure doesnt equate to the measure being absolute. the measure is of course relative! when you make the meter longer, the stuff measured in meters become shorter, quite right.
i already told you what slavery is and what not? did you not read it? do i claim capitalism to be slavery? no i dont, i just use it to make clear in what kind of situation is someone selling himself on the labor market. is being a capitalist labor? no it is not. you can own stuff and make a profit without working, by OWNING stuff and let others work. that is the power of the 1% and not your power, that is the power of the ones owning stuff that is NOT their labor power alone.
You never addressed my issues and I will only reply back if you do. This will be the 4th time I ask you... How is this slavery if both sides are satisfied? JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE LABOR TO ACQUIRE FOOD AND SHELTER DOES NOT MAKE THEM SLAVES. It means they are being responsible for their own well being. Is growing food not labor? Is being a property manager not labor? If you don't work to eat or for shelter, where are you going to get food and shelter from? You really need to get a better understanding of economics before you try to have an intelligent discussion about monetary policy.
quoting myself some posts ago:
you are right about it being not slavery because slavery is the whole worker being the commodity while capitalism is only the labor power being a commodity.
and 1 post ago:
do i claim capitalism to be slavery? no i dont, i just use it to make clear in what kind of situation is someone selling himself on the labor market.
you've showed your ignorance plentyfull here and im glad this is a internet forum where everyone can check on it. makes me a real hero for adressing issues so many of the ignorant liberals share with their free market ideology.
I agree, I hope people read us because I cant see how any rational person can have the same views you have.. I cant see many people agreeing with you that those who are looking for work right now are seeking their own enslavement.
no they are enslaved already thats why they have to go sell themselves. look, think of a job interview. if you dont despise how people have to whimper there because they need a job you cant understand me. there is no decency in begging for a job, being scared of making a bad impression, showing that you are a good subordinate... you have no spine if you dont despise it and your rationality is the one of a dog getting constantly kicked and still loving his master.
where does the food and shelter come from?
Apparently thin air.
I think the government and powers that be just need a dose of LSD. Then maybe they will question why money even exists, but their minds may be too far gone.