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Forum Post: The Myth of Hard Work

Posted 2 years ago on May 7, 2012, 11:22 p.m. EST by junglemonkeez (208)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The Law of Balance suggests that in order for some to be Haves, others must be Have-nots. Monetary success is not the only measure for Hard Work, ie. A Farmer, A Coal Miner, A Crab Fisherman, An EMT Helicopter Pilot. No one could say that these men aren't dedicated Hard Workers. Where is their bucket of Gold. Those that Have, Have and know how to keep. Why is it that the picketeer on the street who is braving the elements and worse the critisism, Jail, pepper spray, etc., who strives unendingly for the notion of a More Perfect Union, for equality, for, simply the Rights given everyone in The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution, why are we considered "Lazy." It is the height of arrogance to suggest any person is lazy without walking a day in their shoes. Parhaps there are those who are taking care of others who can't dedicate their lives to the persuit of "Bling," are they "Lazy?" Where is their pot of Gold? And all of this says nothing of those third world countries who are the real victoms of our Capitalistic Society, I suppose they are all "Lazy" and just need to work a bit harder. It doesn't take a BS, to see through the BS. March on! To A New World.

127 Comments

127 Comments


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[-] 2 points by ClearTarget (216) 2 years ago

This capitalist society rewards 'connections' but does not determine past that. And herein lies the farce called capitalism. Well connected criminals routinely exploit this system to their benefit at the cost of others.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

The Capitalist society stands on the backs of others while picking their pocket and then dangles the money they just stole in front of the man they stole it from. ie. BoA Charlotte - Banks get bailout from the Government (which is The People who pay taxes) then somehow they get people to sit in front of that bank begging for some money back. Meanwhile, all those people who are next to be pick pocketed are to busy chasing the money dangled in front of them to help stop this. Look people, if your honest, you have to admit that you would do the same. These banks are just boards of people who are increasing there investments, isn't this the American Dream? These people aren't criminals, this is all legal. These people are just the smart hard workers that managed to pull one over on the so called financially ignorant masses. Make no mistake, the Bailouts for the auto and bank(housing) industries, was a financial coup of our Government. Smarter people simply took advantage of the legal system that exists. And if they are as smart as that, they will continue to take these advantages as long as they exist. Getting together and demanding forgivness for ignorance is a bad argument. Getting together and demanding a cut of this pie would be a right of the masses. Majority (mob) rules. This is no more just then what they did. Society will only survive when they with the advantage learn to share.

[-] -3 points by kaerfpo (-20) 2 years ago

the poor pay no taxes therefor they have no money the goverment can 'steal' from them

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22137) 2 years ago

The government steals their livelihood by failing to provide economic opportunity. And, the poor pay plenty of taxes. There are many other taxes than income tax, and for the poor they are a much greater percent.

[-] -1 points by kaerfpo (-20) 2 years ago

Thats just a flat out lie.

Proof = Both our budget deficet, and Federal Debt.

None of which will ever be paid for by poor you cry about.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 2 years ago

Okay, well think about this, how are all those profits made that these rich folks have clung to all for their little old selves? On the backs of the working people whose wages have been declining for 30/40 years.

40 Years ago the average CEO earned 30 times the wage of the average workers. Today, the average CEO earns 343 times the wage of the average worker.

Wages as a percent of profits is at an all time low, I think a 70 year low, almost since it's been calculated because the greedy folks at the top have been allowed to garner all the money for themselves.

That's your stolen opportunity. Greed has stolen opportunity from the American people. And, as a percent of income, the poor pay more taxes, perhaps not income tax, but many other taxes.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Thats funny The Declaration of Independence says something about All Men Being Created Equal, I didn't realize that was only if you happen to make money.

[-] -2 points by kaerfpo (-20) 2 years ago

Aww look a strrawman is being built

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

The best part is nobody is the wiser.

[-] 2 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

What a great point, perhaps they can find comfort in the fact that the poor shall inherit the earth, (not the rich) and Jesus has his reward with him when he returns to reign King over the earth, and hopefully soon!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I suggest those who have an open mind and no real brush with the bible - perhaps should take a moment and consider ( read ) revelations. Consider the fact that these books of the bible are ancient and yet there are many startling glimpses of the future ( that would be our modern times ). Look at the world around you today and then compare to the predictions of what will be happening in the end times ( end times = end of mans reign ).

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If you really do have DNA of Jesus you might be able to create his clone, but the man Jesus is long dead, perhaps he is waiting in the afterlife. But I have no intention of waiting that long to fix the problems of today. We can do better. Believe me, if Jesus came back I would cirtainly welcome him to our world.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

It's brainwashing my friend. It is truly hard to believe how we arrived in this place. Anyone who's over 30 will know what I mean. If 15 years ago someone were to say we would one day have a giant homeland security department, something like a Patriot Act, our police departments would become militarized, we would think they were either a crazy conspiracy theorist, read too much Orwell, smoked too much crack, or they were just full of shit (and joking around). If anyone would have said that we would have a depression scale economic collapse caused by crooked bankers, but because the system was so corrupt, we'd sit back and allow the corruption to continue, most people would have thought you were crazy. Well, all of these things now exist.

Here's occupy wall street bravely trying to fight this monster, and the best the right can come up with is the same old shit it always comes up with. Dirty hippies, socialists, communists, bla, bla, bla.

Hopefully, the American people will see the light before it's too late for us.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Thanks. Now I know why so many called me crazy.........:)

I knew this stuff 30 years ago.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I suppose your right, if I do perhaps influence somebody with these texts, that could be considered brainwashing, but suppose someone were to be influenced by your text there, is that brainwashing.

As you say "Hopefully, the American people will see the light" but what is this light? You are as right about your grievances as anyone, people don't need my help with those. What we want is Change, and unless you can offer some suggestions, you aren't helping. I'm tired of being told How Bad things are, try instead to tell me How good things Could Be.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I mean, by listing grievances, we implicitly list solutions. For instance, if we agree that the Patriot Act is an assault on American liberty, then we should just get rid of it. Moreover, I frequently post ideas about how we can improve our circumstances (I'm not just listing grievances, I think I talk about solutions more than I complain about problems, and this applies to OWS more broadly speaking).

Some problems only require a reversal (like the Patriot Act), and by generating awareness, we are working towards a solution. In other cases, indeed, innovative and "affirmative" initiatives are required (not merely reversing bad policy) .... but you can go to the forum listing right now, and find dozens of ideas (some good, some bad, some controversial, some uncontroversial, etc.).

OWS has only been around for 7 months (and magic wands don't really exist, so substantive change takes time).

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I agree it takes time but we use that argument to not even get started. Take the patriot act, why did you let it get inacted in the first place, (I dont mean you, I mean people in general) but why, because We The People aren't in control, and why is that, because people don't want to take the time to vote on the issues, they just want to vote on their leaders who in the end have either there own agendas or someone elses, but not ours. We can do better.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I agree, and I'm confident that most supporters of OWS agree with this general principle. I mean ... OWS (at least its core supporters) have been inspired by the anarchist intellectual tradition, which is at its core (to summarize), participatory democracy.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

We get in trouble when we label things or talk about things by their labels, people must understand at some gut level that the herd is much safer when it comes together and even more safe when it risks itself for the defense of the individual, all people must be seen as necessary and precious and have some purpose. The one you save, may in turn be the one who saves them that you care about.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We must participate. Or suffer the consequences of leaving the store unattended.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well stated (and we've obviously left the store unattended for far too long) :)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Damn - Straight.

[-] 2 points by RoughKarma (122) 2 years ago

It really isn't hard work that matters. If I went out and started digging a hole it would be hard work, but if the hole is of no benefit to anyone then why should I expect reward? Unless, at the end, I can call it the Panama Canal, it's just a useless hole. That's why energy expended should be directed at effective measures. OWS could be a Panama Canal, but with the current (non)leadership is just another useless hole.

[-] 3 points by mmmorgan (3) from Colorado Springs, CO 2 years ago

Agreed. And the real cultural problem here is that the American Dream is a facade that we keep feeding to generation after generation. "If YOU work hard and YOU get good grades then YOU can go to college and YOU can get a good job..." We emphasize the "hard work" of the individual, and it blows up in our face when the economy fails. But because it was up to YOU to make a good life for yourself, the blame falls back on the individual.
We need to stop pretending that there are no outside influences and obstacles that could possibly alter our futures. But at the same time, we need to act. We need to collaborate with a plan. We have the world's attention; we've occupied. Now, let's make some realistic demands, and get off the idea that hard work will, or should, allow you a pot of gold.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

You have the right thinking here.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

I have learned most of the scientific laws and several of the criminal laws. I have even learned many of the civil laws. Please give the the history and epistemology of this Law of Balance that you reference.

If it seems credible, I might read the rest of your blithering.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

See, Symbol for Yin Yang, Law of Balance

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

That is not a law. It is not testable nor measurable. It is a concept of generality but it is not a law.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

It's called a Taijitu, and I really think that you might be misinterpreting Chapter 2 of the Tao Te Ching. The part about how there can't be good without bad, or long without short, or high without low. It also says that there can't be easy without difficult. That if no job is hard, then no job can be easy. You want everybody to get paid the same, whether their jobs are easy or whether their jobs are hard. The Tao Te Ching doesn't say that there shouldn't be hard jobs and that there shouldn't be easy jobs. It just says that "easy" is a concept that doesn't make sense without "hard". You want everybody's life to be easy, but that's impossible.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

It is true, you can't have good times without knowing some bad. The Law of Balances suggests and life supports that though not all things are equal as in 1 for 1, but when taken as a whole 1 can balance 99. Perhaps you will recognize the reference there. This works in any combination like 2 and 98, or 50/50. It is up to all of us who are willing to work together to find a mutual balance that benefits all equally or at least be honest with the poor sap thats going to get shaft. Don't forget though, that even the poor sap deserves a say! A chance to prove his value is greater than yours. Think about that!

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're still confusing a person's value to society with their income. Anybody would agree that one of the most valued occupations is motherhood. Yet it's generally an unpaid job. A person's income does not equal his or her value in society.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Good point, I forgot about them, I suppose there is nothing can be done to change that either. How often do children get sick and left at daycare to sicken all the other children, simply because society doesn't support a woman who might need to stay home with that child. And I know that missing even one day can mean a lack of food the next.

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[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I think John Lennon said it well -

Working Class Hero

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVEnm-LZozU

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

This is the single most retarded thing I've read on this site.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

appreciated but ignored, thx

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

Those who protest for better living conditions are assume to be lazy, because mostly of them are unemployed. Those who working hard on the jobs they dont deserve are assume to be lazy because they unable to find better jobs which can bring them more money or more time off the job. Those who have a good jobs and to have plenty of time are lazy too, because they paying bigger taxes and didnt concern to take actions.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Look, it is what it is, the only choice we have is to give up and join them or come together in some real collective cause and make real positive change that literally benefits everyone, dispite what those that will initially lose may think now. Thats it, what other choice is there?

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

To shift the movement to another level. To form opposition, "tea party" with no corporate interest. http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/dc-news/2012/05/union-obama-ties-rents-offices-occupy-dc/588636 It doesnt mean that we have to pray for Obama for that. this is like taking girl out and not pretend to have sex at first night... funny tho, RP is right candidate!

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

The Tea party is no more prepared for opposition than Occupy, I know this because you people oppose each other and you are each others greatest strength. Is it Sun Tzu or Buddha, who said "You learn more from an enemy, then a friend" though I like to think that there are no enemies, just friends who have done me wrong.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

OWS is need the massive appearance. movement is still not popular enough to promote such actions [learn from the enemy] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/world/europe/protesters-in-moscow-walk-softly-carry-no-sticks.html?_r=1&ref=world

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Masses are generated by sound causes, perhaps this movement is going in the wrong direction?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

"Work smarter, not harder.". It's a cliche, but it's true. What you're doing matters as much as how hard you work at it, if not more. And sometimes deciding what problem to solve is more important than either solving a problem in a smart way, or working really hard to solve the problem. Denying these things is to deny the fundamental advantages that humans have over the rest of the animal kingdom. Man didn't evolve from hominids by working harder than the other animals to find food. We evolved to dominate the planet because we were more efficient.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If you think you are the most efficient biological entity on this planet, you had better retake bio 101. Do you know why Buddhists sit and meditate? Because when you move, you destroy everything underfoot. You had better be very sure of the destruction you wrought. Your so called "advantages" are killing her. You're evolution from hominids isn't sounding so advanced. I agree to "Work smarter, not harder."

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You can spend all day banging two rocks together to make fire, and if you feel better about yourself because you worked really hard then that's fantastic. But if I pull out a lighter and make a fire in two seconds then I win. If I burn fewer calories obtaining food than you do, then I win. That's how Darwinism works. A Taoist would tell you to not fight the Tao. You can't change the rules of the universe because they're not fair. You have to go with the Tao, even though the Tao is not fair.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

It sounds to me like your saying we can't do better, that I must accept unfairness rather than struggle against the injustices. I'm not interested in changing the universe, just inequality.

[-] 2 points by bigbangbilly (594) 2 years ago

No, the rules of the universe might be already broken and ignored so many times already. Sometimes trying and failing is better than not trying at all.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I dispute the idea that it's unfair for one person to have more if he works more effectively than another, even if both are working just as hard. I don't see that as an injustice. Work for its own sake is not automatically virtuous.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's like you've never heard of an hourly wage.

If you had? You'd know that's not how it works.

If you're efficient at your job, they just find more stuff for you to do..they don't pay you more.

They'd be more likely to do a time study and expect more from the other workers.

[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

More effective people command higher hourly wages.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Geeze, some peoples kidz.

I show exactly, that the reality isn't what you stated .....and you repeat yourself.

What you say, is not so. It's a fantasy.

Perhaps you could use a time study done on yourself.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

When you 'showed that reality isn't what I stated', you assumed that nobody ever moves up to a better-paying job. That isn't how it works.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

That job would need to be available.

That's not always the case, in fact in this "job climate" it's very rare.

You make far too many assumptions about job and pay mobility.

You really do need a time study done on YOU.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Okay, let's study me. During the recession, I continued to earn more and more. Why? Not just because of hard work, but also because I have rare and valuable computer skills that I picked up over decades. I created my own job, which I could do because more effective workers have more options.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Let's not study you. You will present yourself as a special case.

You have likely NEVER been subjected to a professional time study.

Let's use everybody's favorite punching bag the " burger flipper".

Now show me how he's going to be paid more just because he's good at it.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

The burger flipper who makes a lot less than me doesn't refute my point, which was that it's fair for a more effective worker to earn more. My work creates new companies, and new jobs. A burger flipper's work creates new burgers. Obviously I'm going to get paid more, and I don't see that as unfair.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

So basically you are saying that it is better to over employ at less than subsistence ( living ) wages. As that means more people have less time on their hands.

Nope - can't agree with that reasoning.

No I think it is better all the way around that the least paid worker anywhere makes a living wage and does not need public support to make ends meet. The properly paid work force then has more money to spend at local businesses like the burger flippers and so that business has more business/patrons - and so has more revenue to hire more living wage burger flippers.

Then there are also more people paying taxes starting savings accounts making investments buying other businesses products making the economy grow which allows a successful well paying quality business to expand and grow and hire more employees at a living wage.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

How many burger flippers do they need to keep their doors open? I would say that would depend on the average traffic through the store. Hell the Manager or franchise owner could be flipping the burgers. It does not matter as long as that position pays a living wage.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Yes that's exactly what would happen. The franchise wouldn't be able to afford to pay a living wage for every single employee so it would have to eliminate a lot of the entry-level jobs. So the owner would have to either flip the burgers himself or go out of business. If he goes out of business then everybody loses their jobs. Currently our system provides a way for the burger flipper to earn a living wage: learn new job skills and find a better job. Nobody should spend their entire career flipping burgers. And our system should not enable people to do that.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You have a screwy way of looking at life and employment the economy and a living wage.

The more people who are making a living wage the fewer that are needing public assistance. The broader the tax base is. The more money that is constantly flowing through our economy. The only ones getting hurt ( and this is all reserved to their perspective ) are the ones at the top of the food/economic/pay chain. They make less as those below make more - but comparatively speaking they are still well off - wealthy.


[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (2448) from Miami Beach, FL 7 minutes ago

You're twisting the debate by turning it into a conversation about a living wage. This was originally about whether two different jobs should pay differently if they're both an equivalent amount of work.

But since you're shifting the topic... Should society bend over backwards to eliminate entry-level jobs like burger flippers, to make it possible for somebody to cruise through life working as a burger flipper with no other aspirations? No. That doesn't help society, and it makes it harder for kids to find entry-level jobs. If every single job has to pay a living wage, then there will be a lot fewer entry-level jobs. The only person who would benefit would be the career burger flipper, who would never need to develop any other skill. Why incentivize skill stagnation? That certainly doesn't help the economy to grow. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

How many jobs do you think that McDonald's would have to eliminate if they were required to pay a living wage to every burger flipper?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The burger flipper should still make a living wage. Any job that needs to be done deserves a living wage. As the very minimum starting point in a healthy society/economy. More financial reward can be sought by advancing ones abilities. Starting with a living wage and working sane hours allows a person to advance if that is what they want.


[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (2448) from Miami Beach, FL 3 minutes ago

The burger flipper doesn't create new jobs. He doesn't create new companies. He doesn't even create burgers, he just prepares them. So obviously he's not going to make as much money for an hour of his work as I am. Nor should he. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

You're twisting the debate by turning it into a conversation about a living wage. This was originally about whether two different jobs should pay differently if they're both an equivalent amount of work.

But since you're shifting the topic... Should society bend over backwards to eliminate entry-level jobs like burger flippers, to make it possible for somebody to cruise through life working as a burger flipper with no other aspirations? No. That doesn't help society, and it makes it harder for kids to find entry-level jobs. If every single job has to pay a living wage, then there will be a lot fewer entry-level jobs. The only person who would benefit would be the career burger flipper, who would never need to develop any other skill. Why incentivize skill stagnation? That certainly doesn't help the economy to grow.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Please apply your POINT to the burger flipper.

Without doing so, you do not actually make your point, let alone prove it.

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

It is only unfair when someone else has to go without so that you can have extra. Work is a job. A passion is what a man Knows he should be doing. Work is not virtuous for its own sake, but wouldn't it be a better world if people/children were encouraged to find their passion, then they would do it for its own sake. That's the world I see.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Not if your passion is for medieval history or women's studies or something, no. I have a lot of different passions but I have the sense to focus on computer science because that's a highly effective way to generate income. I get paid a lot more than an EMT. I don't think that's unfair. I've also been an EMT, and they're both about equivalent amounts of work. Different kinds, but both hard work. But I'm a lot more effective at creating value for companies as a computer scientist so I get paid more that way. That's not an injustice.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

This is where we differ then, it is absolutely an injustice for the EMT. And frankly I'm puzzled, you having done both would suggest one is more important to society than the other. You admit yourself the difficulty is the same, so tell me and all that read this why paying a computer guy is better then an EMT?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Because there are lots and lots of EMTs, and you can train to become an EMT in one semester. Whereas there are relatively few 'computer guys' compared to the demand for them, and it takes years to develop the skills. This is simple supply and demand.

I didn't say that one is more important to society than the other, just that obviously you're going to 'have' more if you work hard at a job where you're more effective at creating value. Which was more important to society, when I helped a person breathe when they couldn't, or when I trained an unemployed Occupier for a new career as a computer guy and gave him a job? You dictated the answer by framing the debate in terms of haves and have-nots. If you're going to define success in terms of how much you have or have-not, which you did, then the person who is more effective at creating value is going to get more, not the person who works harder. In those terms, a computer guy can easily create more value than an EMT. But remember that there is more to life than just having things.

[-] 0 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

That all sounds accurate to the way things are... but I'm not offering status quo. I think people want change, I have some ideas for real change, they may be hard to except if you don't believe ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL as I do! But if you do, then please stop fighting us and help! As you say "there is more to life"

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

This goes back to the part about fighting the Tao. If you think that an EMT should get paid the same as a computer scientist, then you're ignoring supply and demand. Computer scientists are scarce and in high demand, so they get paid a lot more. Fantasizing about any other system is like wishing that water would flow upstream. Go with the Tao, not against it.

Should an EMT get paid the same as a paramedic? They both work hard, right? But the paramedic has years more training. Why should they both be paid the same?

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Because Men are created Equal. Period. Women too. and I don't mean like all people are 5' 8" 200lbs, they all have their purpuse to serve. And a Society would be wise to take advantage of this phenomena. But again, you can tell me until your blue in the face, how things are, but I say its broke that way. Its time to begin to Change, and that starts in the heart of every man. Check yourself and judge if it is really just that two people, any two people should ever be treated different. This I do mean in general, as there are bad apples, but for the most part and for my part, I have not in my years met many of them. I believe most people want to do the right thing.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

When I worked as an EMT, I worked a lot harder than the paramedics. Paramedics earn a lot more. Are you objecting to that? If we're gong to value people based on how hard they work and not on market forces or training, then shouldn't the grunt workers actually get paid more, since they work harder? I was a firefighter/EMT, and on fire calls, I was the guy who had to drag hoses into burning buildings and put out fires, while my lieutenant just stood around working the pump truck and talking on the radio. I worked WAY harder, but he got paid a lot more. In your fantasy world, more senior workers who supervise would get paid less?

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I am simply suggesting to you that money isn't working as well as you would have me and others believe. If that means fighting the Tao as you see it, then fine. I certainly do not resent hard work or responsibility or even people who make more money, I resent that you think that makes you somehow better than anyone else. Either All Men are Created Equal and we hold this truth to be self evident, or we don't and we need to take it out of the Decaration. No man is more important than me, that is not ego, it Is equality.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

You tell me, what can society offer a person to ecourage them to become a paramedic, or any other occupation? I know your asking me, but I need you to open your mind just a little more and imagine that its not that great a leap. That if society would just ask for help filling these rules, I think people would respond. I think and maybe I'm wrong, that people would rather work for a good cause, rather than good money.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Money works pretty well as a motivator to encourage EMTs to become paramedics. You're fighting against the Tao by resenting the fact that people with more training and more responsibility who are more effective earn more money.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Stupid question - the level of training is different - as are the care responsibilities. Grunt workers should be paid more than they are as each job performed is essential or it would not be staffed and the "least" ANYONE should be paid is a " living wage ".

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

EMTs are paid a living wage. But should an EMT be paid the same as a paramedic or a lead software developer, both of which have different levels of training and more responsibilities? My point here is that two people shouldn't automatically be paid the same just because they both work just as hard. A world where everybody gets paid the same is an extremely common fantasy among Occupiers. You might as well fantasize about a world where nobody has to work at all.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

No, in my fantasy world people respect their seniors because they have put in the time, but and this is just my idea, but there is no pay in that sense. people work for each other not for pay, I do things for my family because they are my family. The whole world needs to recognize its kinship and the advantages that come with it.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Then why would an EMT go through paramedic school? It's a lot of trouble. It's not easy. Why bother, if you would end up getting paid the same anyway?

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[-] 1 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

yes exactly people spend just like the government

[-] 0 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I know this won't make me popular but if you have money in savings which is more than you NEED at this moment, that this is The Problem. So many people in this world have the ability to provide for great change in this world but choose to save for a rainy day or to save "the money to buy a WANT." I am not blaming anyone for this. On a personal level I get the Fear and fear it is that one day I might have need for this savings. But, and this is my belief, that in order to create true equality, such as is suggested in "all men are created equal" that we must come to know our fear of future need and instead put our faith in our fellow members of a truely civilized society to come to our aid. The problem is people don't trust other people. It's sad, but true! Fear is the rot that holds on to money while others suffer all around. The rich have a saying "there is No problem so great that can't be overcome by... Money." The fear that your fellow man will neglect you in your time of need, is why we fail as a society and fail it will if not addressed, period.

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[-] 0 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If what you say is true and Wisdom is the vehicle to overcoming great problem then we are a nation of ignorance and I suppose only the wealthy have wisdom. It is fear that causes a man to think it wisdom to put his money in savings when there are people out your front door who could benefit by it and I don't think The Economy gives a flying shit about the opressed, the thirsty, the hungry and the sick. It is the Wisdom of the Wealthy to keep the poor ignorant. The root word being Ignore and most of us know who does that the best.

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

It is arrogant to think with so much reality around my little life that I may someday, somehow pretend to believe that my ship is gonna come in. Anyways I have seen the wealthy peoples idea of philanthropy. Come on! You don't really believe that do you?

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

In this society, if I had a hundred million dollars, I would make a hundred people millionaires. That is what I would do, and yes of course, I would be one of them. For my part, I would ask those of my family if they would like help relieving their debt loads, so that if someday I was ever to need there assistance again, they would perhaps ablige.

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

How do you know they would not benefit by the lesson?

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

would you like someone else to come in and dictate to you, what you can do with your money or life, like your a child. Even if you give it to them thats just wrong. People have to have the Freedom to make their own choices, good or bad. We learn like that, live and learn.

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Perhaps it is ego that says the Donkey can't find his own way? We may not need a leader, we may be able to find our own way.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Yes your right but think of what you are saying, if I dangle a carrot in front of a donkey, is it taking up the challenge or am I just manipulating the beast of burden. Would you say people are just beasts of burden for those with the carrots to manipulate?

As long as people continue to chase the carrot, you will be right. I am simply suggesting people stop chasing the carrot. Then you have your revolution.

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

Aesop wrote a fable about an ant and a grasshopper...and that was 600 BC.

If everyone is living day to day - who is going to be there to help you out in your time of need? If I only have enough money or resources to pay my bills today because I haven't saved any, how can I take on your burdens as well?

This is silly.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

We have a wellfare system for just that reason, but you sound fairly intelligent, perhaps you can think of something better. I'm all ears.

Does Aesop have a fable that tells of the man who kept saying he CAN'T do a thing, and was Right

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

The fable describes something better. It is smart to save money in case you need it - so you can support yourself in times of need.

There are already too many people living paycheck to paycheck. For people to say "don't worry about saving money, if you fall on hard times, the government will save you" is a dangerous proposition.

Besides, in your post, you say "fear that your fellow man will neglect you" - are you considering the government to be that fellow man?

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Our Government as I see it, is We The People. And I don't live my life in fear and I recomend that you don't either. I know that when I have been down and out, some of the most amazing people have come to my aid. I simply do not fear this scenario any more. People have made the statement with this movement that they will stand together. And it is in this kind of brotherhood that I find security.

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

I agree that there are amazing people out there that will come to your aid when needed - and that truly is a wonderful thing. There are still good people out there who are willing to help out. I fully agree that we should rely on each other.

I don't live my life in fear either, and that is because I'm smart. I know how to manage my finances so that I don't become a burden to other people when it is unnecessary.

If you have a good job, and can manage your money - I still don't understand why you wouldn't want to save money for yourself, or save money to buy something that you want - instead of getting it on credit? Why not save?

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

In this society, yes, save as much as you can. But let me ask you a question, who is going to foot the medical bill for all the Baby Boombers, are you sure they have all saved enough. I know of people who go to the food bank every wednesday cause medical ate their savings. It's not my job to think of myself, but this is what worries me!

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

That's the best idea you can come up with, "oh well, lets just let the kids deal with it" That's the sadest thing I've heard all day. Think long term as if you were working out your own budget for the future, imagine if everyone just voted that this is a real problem and we need to address it, don't you think, with all the people in this country we could do better. Of course. And not only that but better by a long margine. My parents and children deserve far better from me. For such a responsible person that seems fairly irresponsible to me. Sad.

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[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Glad to here it. Try not to be so pessimistic, I think people are smarter then we give them credit for. By the way, don't worry so much about the national debt, it will right itself when the system isn't broken anymore.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

financial ignorance is an excuse to abuse

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

That is irrelevant to your first point about saving money being the problem.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Right, but your talking about the way it is and I'm talking about the way it could be. Think of the world (or the nation) as a company, if everyone works for the company why would you need to pay employees at all, why not just provide housing, food, water, security, even recreation and when everyone has equal stake, they have equal incentive. Anyways, for better or worse, thats my idea of it. I suppose people call this socialism or are afraid of this kind of thing, but I see it as the way its going already, we are one world, our only choice is to embrace that reality. But I am open to other options, I simply haven't heard any better.

[-] 0 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

The farmer, the miner, the fisherman, the pilot, are all producing something that other people can use, and they are compensated for in return by those other people; and your examples are people who are often very well-compensated indeed. That is the nature of human transactions -- other people compensate you for what you do based on the value they believe you to have brought them. To the extent that people believe that your marching in the streets brings value to them, you can ask for and receive compensation or reward. It has nothing to do with laziness, it's a matter of value. If someone has a choice between donating to OWS and buying an iPhone, and chooses the latter, it's because they believe the iPhone will bring them better value or somehow improve their life to a greater degree than does OWS. And that is a choice they are entitled to make as humans with free will and inalienable rights and freedoms.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If you are right, then there is no need for change. I think its funny, how many people come on here trying to tell me How Life Is. We all know the way things are. We all know whats broken. That's why WE are the 99. All I can think is these people who do not know me and have not walked in my shoes, think, truely think I am an idiot or that people are idiots who struggle. Like if only they were just as smart as me, oh how their lives would be made better. I suppose thats easier than getting to know them or imagine life through their eyes. All of what you say is true as it exists, but we can do better. You can Lead, follow or get out of the way.

[-] 0 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

Well, the question then is how much have you walked in the shoes of the people you are criticizing? Have you ever been a farmer or miner or a fisherman? Have you ever spent much time rubbing shoulders with them, or with those you characterize as the 1%? It doesn't sound like it.They have all struggled, and continue to struggle; and in almost all cases, that is why they have achieved success. The trust fund babies that you imagine are running the world are few and far between. The issue is not that they do not understand you, or that they do not think that there are issues or better outcomes, it is that they do not agree with you on the nature of the solution and the tasks germane to achieving it. Devaluing people who disagree with you by assigning cheap stereotypes to them is precisely the conduct you accuse them of.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I have been all those things and more, but you don't really care what I have done do you, you just want to make some more blanket statements as to why this world is the way it is, without coming up with any idea of how it can be better. I say All Men Are Created Equal. No man is Greater than me, that is not ego, that my friends, is equality. Oh, I believe most men are struggling, no doubt. But this is where I make the distinction, success does not a man make. Success does not make you Worthy. It's what you do with that success.

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[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

You are getting it wrong. By working hard (and smart) you will only do as well as your profession (and professional qualifications and capabilities allow). A consultant working 18 hours a day will never make as much as a banker working the same hours. Similarly a programmer will not make as much as a consultant and so on.

How much you get paid for your hard work entirely depends on the job you are into. And what job you are into depends on how hard you work prior to getting into that job. So if you had worked hard in law school or med school or bschool you have a better chance of starting off with a higher salary. Similarly if you worked hard in high school getting good grades and building a good resume and aced your SAT or LSAT or GRE, you have a better chance of making it to a good college/university for your studies.

So if you weren't lazy when it mattered, you would not have to work very hard now. Of course none of this hold true for kids with rich parents. But for the rest of us it does.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Are you saying we who are struggling now were just Lazy children who didn't work hard enough? Or are we just Lazy adults who aren't working hard enough now? And are you saying that you are better than those who don't make as much as you and are you saying that you are somehow less than those that make more than you. Why is it so hard for you to see that all and I mean all are created equal. If I had to guess, I would bet that 1 out of 2 people could replace any person in any job and once trained, Do IT Better. This my friend, isn't just opinion, it is the Law of Balance, the Law of Nature. It is always improving upon itself.

What you are saying is true as the system exists, if you want money be a Lawer or a Banker, but systems evolve and aren't Lawers and Bankers what this is all about. We can do better, so, what I really want you to think about is what is it that people really want. I want to have a place to call my home where I can work my own passion, raise my children, and live with love and joy. I don't say this willy nilly, this all comes of much deliberation. I realized that my father worked his whole life so his family could survive and be prosperous and we have prospered. But it isn't enough, I needed my father, not his money, he taught me alot, he taught me to think for myself not just follow in his footsteps. I don't need to tell you this, I am living it. I am saying this for those who haven't been given the requsite time required for true contemplation. Those who are in survival mode may be to busy to see the damage they are doing. Think about it, if you work 3 jobs to make ends meet, are there Not 2 people who now have no work. This is endemic of the capitalist system, why pay overtime or benefits if we employ part timers only. Someone has to help the sick when they do finally break down. So society foots this bill because employers are phasing it out. People are figuring out more and more ways not to pay taxes and keep what they earn, and rightly so, they know nobody wants to help them. But if more people are avoiding more and more tax, the Goverment, set up by the people, for the people, will go broke. Then, wheather you like it or not, you have anarchy.

What I am offering is a system of the people by the people for the people, where your job is your dream, where security is an understanding between men that we will have each others back, where courage is a man without a weapon standing up for anothers rights. Every solution creates another problem, sure, but negativity never got anyone anywhere, follow Hope and Optimism and Change will be for the better.

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

You seem to missing something of the point of jobs. First, a job isn't about doing what you like, it's about doing something that someone needs done. Most are not something that anyone would consider their dream - that's why they pay you. Who's dream is it to work in a sanitation plant, or the midnight shift in a power plant or doing hot tar roofing? And if we're all doing what we dream of, who's going to do the dirty work and support us whilst we're all teachers and musicians and philosophers and artists? Men and women are indeed created equal. But equality does not mean an automatically equal slice of the pie, because there isn't any pre-existing pie to slice up. The pie was created by people through their efforts and work, and no one is a priori entitled to a piece of it. If you want a piece you have to contribute to its baking and to making it bigger. Your equality consists in having an equal right to create a slice of pie for yourself, not in getting a piece of some pie that someone else baked. And if you want to contribute to the baking of a pie, it's like any project -- you do what is needed, not what you like to do or what you wish was needed.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I hear what your saying, I really do, but I am here on this earth to tell you this isn't the way it has to be. This isn't a belief, I'm living it. "That's why THEY pay you" Do you seriously want me and others to believe we Can't do better. Millions of people are doing just that. Again, I know the system as it exists, and all of what you say is true, but only if you believe it. I know from my own experience, and the guidance of others, that Dreams do come true. I have a better Dream for this country than to watch the donkey's chase the carrot.

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

And likewise, I hear what you are saying. And indeed, you can do better. The Amish, the Hutterites, and others do precisely what you describe. The issue is one of scalability--what works well in a close-knit community with strong shared values and common goals, and a very strong policing mechanism in the form of peer approval (and disapproval) and the potential for exclusion from the community, doesn't scale up well to large societies, at least not so far. There are too many divergent goals, too many people willing to be parasites, too many people willing to game the system in ways large and small and take advantage of the willing, idealistic workers. So the problems are two: how do you gain the requisite consensus in a society of hundreds of millions, and how do you keep everybody honest? These are formidable problems.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Not so formidable, one step at a time, what is the First Step?

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

Pretty simple, conceptually. Flesh out the vision into a coherent philosophy. Figure out some serious, realistic game plan for implementing the philosophy. Write up some implementing rules (note here that the groups that have successfully done this sort of thing are not anarchists by a long shot -- they all have lots and lots of strictly enforced rules). Get some critical mass of people within a jurisdiction or locale to buy into the whole thing. Go to work.

That's how everyone who's ever succeeded at it has done it. The devil is, of course, in the millions of little details that go into all of that.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The point of a job any job is to be contributing while earning a living. The better jobs are the ones you like or love to do. The basic fact is that not everyone can or will be in the top spots - there is and always will be a need for the most basic of contributions - as such all of these basic and essential jobs require a living wage.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Yes and No.

Yes I am saying that those who are struggling now were probably lazy in their childhood.

No, I am not saying that someone who makes less than me is less than me as a human being.

And please do not expect me to take sentences like "I can bet that". And training can only go so far. A guy who struggled in school and dropped out cannot be 'trained' to become a doctor or lawyer or banker. An engineer cannot suddenly be trained to become a doctor or a consultant cannot suddenly be trained to become a biologist. If only life were that easy. It takes years of study to become a doctor or lawyer or engineer and it takes a good grasp of mathematics to become a banker and so on. So no, people cannot be replaced just like that. The more skilled a job is, the less easy it is to replace people.

The reason your father worked or you work or I work is because

  1. Society needs people to work. Bridges and cars don't build themselves. Roads don't clean themselves and software doesn't write itself.

  2. Competition. If my co-worker gets more work done than me, I will have to match up if I want the raise and want to get promoted. If the Japanese car companies can launch a car in 6 months, American car companies will have to match that pace or lose market share.

The rest of your post, though correct, has digressed from the topic.

And dream jobs are not possible for everyone. Many dream to be a doctor but not all are capable to be one. Would you want any quack operating on you? Jobs are limited and hence many will not get their dream jobs.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If you believe all of that why are talking to me, if things CAN'T change and If a Person can't change into something else. Why are you bothering with me. Think about what your saying an engineer CAN'T be a doctor. No not on the sudden, but in a pinch I bet he could make do and over time he CAN learn. This is precisely why change is not occurring, you keep telling people it Can't be done. When history tells us we Can Do Anything!

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

You are incoherent and you are right, I am wasting my time talking to an idiot like you.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

You mean you haven't a logical answer as reply, if I was an egotist, I would say the same thing.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Logical replies are meant for people who understand logic. Assuming that you are logic is the most illogical thing ever.

You are not an egoist. You are one loser with a hugely inflated sense of self worth. You actually think you can become a doctor, engineer, lawyer or banker just like that. What college did you go to? Some community college? Did you complete college at all?

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I don't think it, I know it, don't need you approval thxs. I'll take my assesment of myself for myself. And I'll try not to judge you to harshly either though its not looking good, I must say!

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Your assessment of yourself is very wrong friend.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

You must think pretty highly of yourself to say so, who made you judge and or God. Why would anyone give a fly crap what you think!

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

The same goes for you. And I get paid handsomely to talk/do what I think. You don't. That's the difference.

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

No matter how "handsomely" you get paid, it'll never make up for how ugly you are!

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

aww...how cute.

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[-] -1 points by kaerfpo (-20) 2 years ago

theres a law of balance that applies to economics? made up by the OWS Brainwashers?

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

If your talking about me and my statement, yes those are my words, I believe it to be a Law of Balance of Nature governing all things including economics. I didn't however make it up, in fact this is the concept of Yin Yang. But if I was you and could make No argument against the reason in it, I suppose I would bash it as Brainwash too. You see, your brain is a parachute, it won't save you until you open it.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Good one.

" You see, your brain is a parachute, it won't save you until you open it. "

[-] -1 points by Barkod3 (-2) 2 years ago

In the dumbed down American society the sheeple is proud for working hard. There are no more money here, but "hard-earned-money." You hear the retard proudly barking, "I work hard and party harder." I agree with studying hard, but working hard clearly means that you don't have the brains to do things the smart way. The joozz just can't stop laughing their arzz out, they created and conTROL the perfect herd of clueless slaves and mercenaries: The HA!mericans ...

[-] 2 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

You may or may not be right, but I have no intentions of demonizing anyone for any reason. Look, If you want to make money, all you need to know is that shiny things sell better. It really is that simple, people will buy anything. Period. Grab some sticks, glue them together, take it downtown and tell people its the statue of Liberty, they will buy it. Money Does Not Concern Me. I would perfer a better reason to live than that. Good Luck!

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

It's the cycle of abuse. Those who have been abused wish the same for others.