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Forum Post: The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.

Posted 5 years ago on Jan. 22, 2013, 5:14 p.m. EST by jph (2652)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments. -Nietzsche

These occupy "supporters" with their pro-arms manufacturer propaganda and stupid "input" are just attempting to discredit the OWS movement by linking it to guns and the radical nationalism of the white-power, black-power,. ALL the ghettoized fear-based groups hiding together in their compounds with their silly weapons, holding hate-fests.

Don't believe the hype,. guns are for the weak, the scared little man-babies, too afraid to deal with people on an even ground. Pathetic.



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[-] 5 points by Builder (4202) 5 years ago

The danger I see with the whole gun "debate", is that it's merely more obfuscation, and divisive tactics of the 1%ers.

There's hasn't been any mention of a "buy-back" or a total ban.

Get back to the real points; money out of elections, people over profits.

[-] -1 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 5 years ago

You are correct.But these posters are not intrested in regulating banks or corporations.They prefer people control.They can not call it that so the term gun control is used. I think that like children all they want is to be safe and secure.Puting their trust in the people that are owned by the corporations.Makes absolute sence to me.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Yep total distraction.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago

I agree, they are here to distract,. but worse than that, they push nothing but fear and hate,. paranoid persecution delusions, and nothing to back up all the lame claims that guns=rights. The rights are being taken every day, and the guns are being pushed more and faster,. how they not see this?

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

They only want to "try" to disrupt the forum into useless discussions that really have nothing to do with addressing the ills of society = corpoRATs and such.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago

yes I know I should not feed the trolls however there are few other threads available,. the gun-pushers have $$ it seems..,

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

It's alright to slap em down if you got noting else goin on at the moment.

I'm just sayin their goal is distraction. Slappen em for it can be fun and entertaining.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Difficult to reply. I think I support what you are saying. I was a sort of kid that grew up with liberal influences in school, but my family has some WWII veterans, hunting traditions, etc., but overall my family unit didn't hunt exactly. Our family seemed open to native traditions, conservation, ecology, and democratic movements.

But I'm not clear what you are saying in the above paragraphs.

I believe you are saying "hey, lets have high values". But why would any one support an arms manufacturer. I don't think there are many investments you can make to get a bump from a gun ban scare. However, we have the NRA. The NRA does keep good statistics as far as I know the only organization that keeps statistics about gun defense. That is why I have a hard time with liberal opinion pieces about the problem with guns. There is little chance for liberal gun grabbers to prove that guns are bad against the huge work that NRA has done on use of the gun to defend a home or just as defense.

Sure, we have lots of things we can slam the NRA on. The NRA has a mission. It will not negotiate. It is only PR to think the NRA will show some concession about gun ownership. The NRA is an interest group that chooses executives to stand firm. End of story.

But everyone wants safety and public safety. These are good focuses which can become objectives that even gun nuts can agree on. Yes, it is hard. Gun Promoters won't compromise. But if you can work around that... there are possibilities.

Division: The gun issue has to be looked at in terms of 20 years of 50 years in the future. You may like the George W. Bush rape of the USA, but in 20 years the executive branch changes it's character. The USA is a very young country. White people were not serfs or slaves here except for a few indentured slaves. I'm not 100% who they were. The Irish may have been a big part of the USA indentured servants or slaves. The division is that gun owners do seem like they will revolt if there is a gun ban.

The point is ... in the Gun Debate ... you can take away guns today and ruin the country in 20 years when oppressive powers take over Washington. What if Texans infiltrated Congress and the Regulatory Agencies? What it Texans, people from Missouri, Alabama, and Florida joined with Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, and Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, etc. Do you want to risk a take over of conservative forces in the US?

The point is you don't know who will rule the USA. There is no progress in a linear line with an upward trend.

Wall Street and Corporations have proved that false. What if fascist force/conservative forces aligned with Mexico, Panama, Brazil, and Argentina to form a corporate relationships of elites.

You just don't know what forces or politics will be here in 20-50 years from now. You vote away democratic rights ... well we all get what we deserve. History is an up and down ride with dictators and tyrants. How is it working out in Greece today? Spain is a very young democracy. Germany has quite a history. Italy has quiet a history. Many countries were influence recently by the Third Reich (20th Century).

Fine you don't like the history of the Nazis. You want to pretend that was long ago. fine. But Where does modern history start? We have had civilizations from like 7000 years ago. Many fell to corruption. What makes you think the USA is different from Sumeria which had the first Bicameral Government?

[-] 4 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago

Dude, the oppressive powers have RULED Washington for 40+ years!

Guns,. are simply badly thoughtout tools, only used for killing, and we do not need them around, period! Guns will not stop the 1% and their power grab,. that can only be done by free people engaging in collective efforts,. not gun battles, and more death and destruction. The rights are already off the books; the govt. now claims all power of search, surveillance, and even torture and endless imprisonment, with no trial, or even the ability to know the charges against us, (Kafka spins in his grave). So when do these 'guns' stop the 1% power grab and this growing inequity? When do the people use the majic power of these tools of death to create peace? It is like the proverbial square peg and that friggin' round hole! You just can not make peace and end corrupt power by embracing the negative power you fight.

Peacefully choosing to support alternatives to the current system, is what will make real changes, not the pointless force of arms,. that always installs another power elite, have you not been paying attention?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

You are making good points. But take a minute and tell me what you know about power, checking power, checks and balances. Your heart is in the right place. But we have had years of war. We are a country of war. War is an expression of many power players in our government.

We can only go back to the Vietnam War for most discussion purposes. This is sort of my understanding of most US Readers. Obviously if you go back in history the examples are very lengthy.

So just from the Vietnam War, you can hit me with examples of how peaceful we are as a nation, but I think those examples are thin.

You can hit me with examples of how genrous our ogvernment is... but they don't act until protesters force them to act. So again power faces against government. Money is power. Protesting is power. Checks and Balances.

The congress no longer opposes the President. The president no longer opposes Congress. The supreme court no longer opposes corporations. Where is the opposing power? Bankers are in the Treasury, Federal Reserve, OMB, SEC, FDIC, CFTC... no opposition.

I get it that European people don't have guns. I get it that guns have been taken from many people. Have you gotten any training or familiarization with guns? If you want to vote against guns, you should at least take the time to get trained and shoot guns a little bit.

I don't really think people should get addicted to guns. I don't glorify guns. If you haven't ever trained on guns you don't know something. You may have trainied with guns and still be for a total gun ban. that is okay. That is democracy. But I have a feeling that many people are against guns partly or mostly because they have never been trained or familiarized themselves with guns.

There is a mindless prejudice against guns by huge numbers of people. All I care about is that people that want to vote against guns go through a training program, hold guns in their hands, learn a little about the responsibility, take some time to think about the short history in the USA.

Why did Rome fall? Why have all of these empires fallen? Do you think Chinese people are happy. Do you think the UK is peaceful and nonviolent. Prohibition of guns or hand guns won['t work since we have open borders. I would like peace in the world, but the F'n USA keeps selling weapons to all the other nations. Those weapons will start to come back to the USA if we have a gun ban.

I'm guessing you have no idea how many guns made in the USA have been exported and sold around the world.

You can't protect the border. Criminals will get guns - Especially if we don't legalize Drugs.

This country is so out of balance. Prohibition of drug, incarceration of young black men, drugging our kids in K-12, bullying, gangs in our cities, alcoholism, drug addiction, Enthnocentric history, control of infomation in the media, politicians that don't put out info, plans, history, details, analysis, truth, world history, info about US Weapons sales, info about US Military training for forieng nations, the spread of war by government, the killing by our government, the drone strikes by our government....

Are you kidding me. Our government is the most violent in the world. And you want to give up the check and balance of civiilan gun ownership on a whim. You don't really argue or debate. You actually are repeating rhetoric. I mean no disrespect. Most people are emotional about politics and vote out of emition rather than knowledge or reason. What principals we have are the constitution. At this point that is all we have except for public safety. Public safety should be #1. We can strip criminals of guns for public safety. Public safety is a kind of narrow use of authority to address a narrow threat.

Tell all you friends to take a gun training course to familiarize themselves with guns. It can't hurt. As a democracy we can ban guns. I'm sure that is true. But before you vote to ban guns, take some time to shoot some guns and take some training.

Citizenship is another subject. I'm not an expert. I'm kind of passive. But you have the most violent country in the world killing people in other coutnries... so what are you going to do?

[-] -3 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

" that can only be done by free people "," not gun battles"

Why the hell do you think you are free??

Because of "gun battles". That's it!!! That's the answer,genius!!!

It's not anymore difficult to understand then that.

America is a free nation because of the "gun battles" our Ancestors fought against the British and every other aggressor since.

You're free because other people died (by guns) for your freedom. That's how this whole "America,land of the free" thing works.

He who has the guns and is willing to fight to protect his freedom has the power to preserve that freedom.

You're a fucking clueless Utopian,I hope you're not an American.

[-] 0 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 5 years ago

You're pretty clever for a troll.

From "Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression":

"Four. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.

Five. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter," "kook," "crackpot," and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.

Six. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not)." http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-gentlemans-guide-to-forum-spies-seventeen-tech/

Or take your pick from the "Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation" http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-gentlemans-guide-to-forum-spies-spooks-feds-et/

Forum attack techniques, all in one place: http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm .

[-] 0 points by peacehurricane (293) 5 years ago

That is like a contradiction in time before all acceptance it would have been opposing when there such was.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

"guns are for the weak"...

and then goes on to claim those who are are man-babies...hahah..

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

Good post, jph. Your sanity is refreshing.

[-] -1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

You have ignorant and child like beliefs. You either must be very young or just not very worldly. Regardless you are demonstrating this immaturity to everybody and embarrassing yourself in the process.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

No, it is you that has very ignorant and child like beliefs. You must be one more uneducated shill that somehow believes that what you think matters. Grow up.

Nobody is buying what you are selling.

[-] 0 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

I offered constructive criticism,you offer nothing that matters.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

No. Your intention was simply to be as big an asshole as you could.

I'm your huckleberry.

[-] -2 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

You're no daisy. You're no daisy at all!

I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, GirlFriday, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. There. Now we can be friends again.

[-] 2 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago

You're syntax sounds very familiar. Do we know you?

[-] -1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

Only if you watch westerns.

[-] 0 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago


Shit...its back.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Shhhhh you named the unmentionable. Quick go gargle.

[-] 0 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago

LOL!! I don't think there is anything strong enough!

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Don't give up ya gotta try. Add some hydrogen peroxide and scrub your tongue with the toothbrush - burn it after - the toothbrush ( all though - nope never mind - last resort ).

[-] 0 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago

Heh heh...I knew when I saw his other half here the last couple of days, the un'sophist'icated boor wouldn't be far behind.

I'm not here but for a few minutes a day...so no big deal for me, but everyone else should know he's lurking here.

Hydrogen peroxide makes me gag...I'll have to settle for a field full of mint and a "Sky full of Clover"

Enjoy DKA...the seas may get choppy.

Beth Hart: Sky Full Of Clover ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyr60V_YqNw

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Thx - who does she remind me of . . . Joanie?..........

[-] 1 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago

Beth Hart played Janis Joplin in an Off-Broadway musical called 'Love, Janis'....brilliantly, I might add. I love a soul-rocker with a choir behind them, like this one.

If a troll like trashy is back, then TPTB must be running scared of OWS being successful. You guys must be on the right track. : )

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

You guys? What you have not been involved at all?

[-] 0 points by Renneye (3874) 5 years ago

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23494) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 minutes ago

You guys? What you have not been involved at all?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Ha! Ahh...well gosh DKA, you got me all blushy and everything. Thanks for the smile!!

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Thx for participating - humble one.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

You're a disgusting filthy slob. Now, we are even. Feel better?

Stop harassing the members. Keep it up and I will rip your head off and shit down your throat.


[-] -1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

You gonna do something, or just stand there and bleed?

You've called down the thunder, well now you've got it!

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

Why, Johnny Ringo! You look like somebody just walked over your grave.

[-] -1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

I'm right as the mail.

Poor soul, you were just too high strung.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

A man like livingston9 has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it.

[-] 0 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

Yeah, actually............I think you have.

[-] 1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

You're off script.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

Just pointing out the obvious.

[-] 0 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

Yes, it's true. You are a good woman. Then again, you may be the Antichrist.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

It seems poker's just not your game, Ike. I know: let's have a spelling contest.

[-] 1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

In vino veritas.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

Oh, make no mistake. It's not revenge. It's a reckoning.

[-] 0 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

You're a daisy if you do.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

OH - that's good to know - you are just warming up - got anything planned for your major self defilement?

[-] 1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

Why DKAtoday, whatever do you mean?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

In pace requiescat.

[-] 1 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

No. Not me. I'm in my prime.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Why would I have a problem with you having your nerves that much under control for the moment?

[-] 1 points by livingston9 (-21) 3 minutes ago

Forgive me if I don't shake hands. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

You did say you had only just started - your keeper not around to help you track your present point in time?

[-] 0 points by livingston9 (-154) 5 years ago

Forgive me if I don't shake hands.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33486) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

What - got a gas problem? Go outside for awhile - but take a gas-x 1st.

Be careful when you are thundering that you don't fill your pants.


[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

BTW, it isn't just Scalia has a right to his opinion. That would be an opinion from the Supreme Court.