Forum Post: The moderators on this site discriminate against libertarians
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 10, 2011, 9:27 a.m. EST by andy555
(17)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So much for Occupy Wall Street being a non-partisan, non-ideological movement. First, there was the "Ron Lawl" thing. Then yesterday, after I tried to debate the merits of market economics and freedom with uninformed left-wing commenters, the moderators deleted my account as well as all of my comments. This is censorship, plain and simple. I'm sure a lot of other libertarians have had this same experience.
You think you're being censored when it's really that hateful democracy at work. Your posts have been voted down. They get to -4 and the tree collapses. See the little plus sign next to your name, where your comments used to be?
Deal with it - or take a hint.
Let me get this straight... if folks don't like what you say you get booted... I'm having trouble conceptualizing that as "inclusive".
Nobody got booted that I know of. He thinks he was censored because his comments were voted down.
Exactly. Alternative views aren't welcome here. It's a closed-minded community. Sad.
The libertarians on this site are discriminating against those who don't believe in unfettered free markets and zero'd out social programs. Oh, and they continue to discriminate by using ad hominem epithets like "uninformed left-wing commenters."
Just sayin'...
Actually I'm very Libertarian when it comes to personal freedom. However I do recognize the need for thoughtful regulations in areas like business, and environmental protection.
That's fair enough. I was making fun of the poster's point. This isn't a site for extolling the virtues of a candidate (Ron Lawl). That said, no idea what this person is referring to. if you're involved in a series of comments, you can delete your comment at the outset of a string, and all the comments in response to it are deleted.
But hey, thoughtful libertarian? That's great.
Increasingly, I don't believe in labels of ideology, only priorities and the equitable distribution of limited resources. Ideological identifications and labels get in the way (and are easily demonized), and they have no our country no good...
Free markets is free BS. Globalization is slavery you bunch of wackos. Is that left wing?
Elect me to congress to combat globalization with the 13th amendment. Give me 1 term and see what I do in congress. I will use blogs to destroy the media propaganda. They will never know how to shut me up except by murder.
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The difference is that the libertarians aren't moderating the site, so they can't block people from posting.
And yes, the people on this site are horribly uninformed. It's distressing. This movement is grounded in economic ignorance. I'm just trying to help.
lol. you're trying to help by, um, being incredibly arrogant and condescending? excellent way to get your points across: vilify and use ad hominem attacks on your subjects? nice.
as for being horribly uninformed, just using phrases and simplistic snarky attacks is, what--? empty nonsense.
a lot of people who don't agree with the doesn't exist in the real world and has no proven model for success laissez faire, pure market fairy are pretty well informed, indeed. for example, most of us know that if you want to kickstart the economy, you don't fire public employees and contract public sector spending.
As it turns out, that hastens only further stagnation.
But hey, thanks for the input.
Peace.
You must not be familiar with the Depression of 1920-21. There was a banking crisis, the government did nothing, and then the economy came roaring back a year and a half later.
Hello! I am very interested in all ideas, especially economic ignorance. I would love to hear about the grounding of this movement in economic ignorance. Thanks!
If you're interested in economic ignorance, you've come to the right place.
Andy, I hope this is not true. I am absolutely sick of the trolls who argue minute points to pull people offsides or out and out just call people names. However, if you are trying to start a constuctive debate and inform people, the moderators should encourage, not censor you. I, for one, don't know a whole lot about libertarianism and wouldn't mind a little info from your perspective. I bet, being a big girl, I can sift throught your claims on my own terms and don't need ows to do it for me.
When anyone who disagrees with you is "uninformed" and "left-wing", I can just imagine how productive your "debate" was.
Also, Occupy Wall Street protesters are inherently uninformed. I doubt any of the movement's supporters realize that the US has the most progressive tax system in the world and the second-highest corporate tax rate. If they did, why would they be complaining about the rich getting such a great deal in this country? I'm just trying to educate the ignorant. It's a public service.
If you are really trying to educate the ignorant, you should start with yourself.
The average effective corporate tax rate is around 20%. Many corporations with profits in the tens of billions pay NO taxes (GE, Exxon, Verizon, etc.) and get tax subsidies (taxpayer money) giving them a NEGATIVE TAX RATE. These corporations use and benefit from the civilian infrastructure but pay no taxes to support it: corporate welfare.
The tax rate on the top 400 "earners" is 16%. How much do you pay?
First of all, the average effective corporate tax rate is around 27%. You're right that some corporations don't pay taxes --- largely because of environmental tax credits --- but other companies pay effective tax rates of over 40% (that's how it averages out to 27%. Other countries have tax credits too, so our effective corporate tax rate is still higher than almost any other country's.
You need to educate yourself about the difference between an income tax and a capital gains tax. Most rich people pay more than 30% of their income in federal taxes. Most of the 400 people you're referring to --- a tiny, tiny fraction of the "1%" --- make their money in capital gains, not income. There's a reason that capital gains has always been taxed at a lower rate than income -- the reason is that taxing investment is extremely poor policy. Nevertheless, the OECD says that the US has the most progressive tax system in the industrialized world.
The "most progressive tax system in the world" has allowed the top 1% to accumulate over 40% of all the nation's wealth.
"taxing investment is extremely poor policy" if you want to create job and a thriving economy. Just look at how successful that has been!
"environmental tax credits" Bullshit. 900 full time tax attorneys and former IRS agents work to eliminate all GE tax liability. GE lobbyists write legislation to exempt GE from federal taxes. GE lobbyists bribe congressmen to pass legislation. Other corporations do the same thing.
"other companies pay effective tax rates of over 40%" Bullshit. The maximum rate is 35%.
"You need to educate yourself " and you wonder why you posts got scrubbed? LOL
Tax rates have little effect on wealth concentration, actually. Income and wealth inequality are increasing in almost every developed country because of globalization and technological change, not tax rates.
Historically, there's a very obvious connection between capital gains rates and prosperity. Read up.
You don't think GE benefits from environmental tax credits? GE is a huge wind power producer, largely because wind power is so heavily subsidized. Haven't you noticed their commercials?
It depends if you include foreign taxes in their effective tax rates, but yes, some companies actually do pay more than a 40% tax rate.
That's the thing, though. Everyone on here is left wing. Probably because the people who aren't left wing are kicked off.
Then why are you still here?
My account was deleted last night. I just recreated another account. It's only a matter of time before they notice and delete this account too.
Only if you keeping acting like you do.
I'll get kicked off if I make good arguments and expose too many of the fallacies in these people's thinking.
No, you will get kicked off if you keep calling people ignorant and uninformed.
But that's the truth. The economically ignorant need to know that they're economically ignorant so that they can educate themselves. Otherwise, they'll remain economically ignorant forever. That's not good for them or our country.
Even if you would be right. Calling people names isn't going to convince them.
Those discussing these issues are not economically ignorant. Those running the country and crashing the economy are economically ignorant. As are those who continue to support and defend the economic system that created the problems we face.
You mean, the economic system that made the US one of the richest countries in the world? The same economic system that the other super rich countries --- Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. --- subscribe to?
Most of which are more socialist than us. Don't forget Germany, Sweden, the UK, Canada et al.
Libertarians are aggressive arrogant off-putting people. Their ideas are scary. Their Alfred E. Newman economic theories are what has destroyed America.
Incessantly pushy and aggressive libertarian people are no fun for most people to be around. Period.
Simply put, libertarians fight for the liberty to prey on others without the constraint of government regulation or oversight. Nobody supports this.
a laughed when someone asked if Loki was my lord
last I heard Ron was a republican
Yeah, I think RP is a jackass personally, but the whole 'Lawl' thing is no better than trolling. It comes across as extremely intolerant of certain views.
Deregulatarians
Ron Lawl is a Republican, not a Libertarian.
All conservatives are nitwits not worth any thought. I'm a Libertarian, I'm not a conservative. Libertarians leave everybody alone unless they are criminals. It has nothing to do with social security that is paid for by everybody except the rich. (Tax the shit out of the rich). Remove the cap.
I'm a Libertarian. I don't care about gay marriage. I care about incest. I don't care about religion, I care about God. I'm against destroying our planet. I would arrest all the BP executives and confiscate the entire company today. Just like arresting drug dealers and confiscating their homes, cars, jewelry, and cash.
War is completely unnecessary. The fire power from our submarine fleet would guarantee no one will ever attack the USA.
tHE fair tax WOULD ELIMINATE filing taxes and the IRS.
Really, there are mods? Wonder what you have to say to get deleted? Were you andy on the board yesterday? There was this one Andy who was a real jerk, was that you? I didn't learn one new thing from his posts. It was troll all the way. If they were deleted no one missed a thing.
I'm on my 12th screen name. But they don't censor here. The real protesters would never allow this.
Just start pretending to be something else, as many others infiltrating the movement are doing. (But good luck with that, since most are awful writers and thus not as believable as they could be.)
Honestly? I don't care. Libertarians are just a branch off of mainstream repelicanism. That doesn't mean that their entire philosophy is worthless, just 99% of it -
and most of the individuals who proclaim themselves as libertarian supporters simply are not credible at all. Just like Ron Laul.
ie: you've been duped. I'm sure it will take a while for that reality to penetrate. That's alright. Keep coming back. You'll get it.
Ron Lawl is a fraud and only a Republican. It is not Libertarian to abolish scial security. Its not welfare. Half the people die before they receive any money back from their payments.
Raising the age to collect social security
read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Diane Swonk claims to be an economist who just said, "I work hard and I don't mind having to work 2 more years to collect social security." That was in response to a caller on C-span who said she was 48 and she opposes raising the age.
While I'm sitting here at age 69 writing this blog post I don't claim that this is hard work sitting on my ass. If Diane Swonk drove an 18 wheeler and had to pull the pin to release the trailer every day or did some meaningful work making products, cooking food, repairing things, or building things Diane would grasp that increasing the age to remedy social security will be impossible for many workers.
Diane Swonk is another clueless economist who never saw the mortgage bubble and doesn't know what she's talking about on any subject. When she claims to being a hard worker, even if that was true, she's never accomplished anything. The economists designed the slave trade called "globalization" that has destroyed America for 50,000,000 workers who earned money by working. Its the economists who refuse to admit the mistake of advising the government to use policies that have destroyed the economy.
Any reader who wants to read my entire composition posted just under this post will receive a copy if they send their email address.
So cutting military spending and using half the saved money to make sure Social Security recipients continue to get their money is a bad idea?
People who are entering the job market should have to pay into a system by force I remind you, that you, I, they, and those forcing them to pay know won't exist for them.
Elect me and I'll cut the military budget by $550 billion yearly at least. All we need is our submarine fleet with missiles that can flatten any country on earth.
That will end any threat of war against the USA.
Eliminate the entire cap for social security payments. Problem solved. Tax the shit out of the rich.
Well you're not running as far as I know.
So you agree with Ron Lawl's position regarding both the military and making sure social security recipients are not abandoned by the promises government made to them?
That's a start at least.
Removing the cap of current social security contributions will do two things: 1. slow the economy 2. kick the can down the road as then future generations will be responsible for higher payouts.
No problem will be solved - just delayed and made worse in the future.
Taxing the shit out of the rich will cause the rich to either not be rich, take their money out of the nation, or cease taxable investments. Which of those sounds like a good consequence?
Febs, I am running. The one thing I agree with Ron Lawl is to reel in the entire military. Facts mean nothing to you. The tax holiday did nothing to stimulate the economy. The economy will continue to shrink unless globalization is ended abruptly.
Good thing I used the phrase "as far as I know". Facts mean everything to me but thanks for assuming so much about someone you also know so little about. The fact of the matter is those will be the results of severe tax increases on the rich. The intentions behind and the assumed results of your proposal do not force the outcome to be what you intend or assume it will be. This is a fact of life.
A tax holiday won't do anything because the structural debt and bad assets have never been purged from the economy - they have only changed hands. In order to get out of the slump caused by a bubble bursting the market has to reach equilibrium and in a bubble caused by an expansion of credit that credit and that fake money needs to vanish from the system. With the bailouts and TARP we've continued to keep a large portion of that false liquidity around. With the low interest rates and QE we've injected more made up money into the system. The effect is similar to giving someone going through heroin withdraw more heroin and claiming the problem is cured when in fact it is simply making the underlying addiction worse.
If you would like to discuss economics in detail I would be most happy to oblige because we do want the same thing at the end of our path - a better more peaceful world with more opportunity for our children.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ This is what we aren't fighting Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans.
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
And I bet you're one of the ones who claims that they can't be manipulated by propaganda?
My political philosophy went under a dramatic shift due to introspection, the application of logic to destroy contradiction and this was done through repeated discussion. I found my moral a priori and I still engage in discussion to improve the positions that I hold.
Since the above was just a block of copied text I would still like to discuss economics in detail with you.
After I recognized my own trance in 1998, you better believe I'm not manipulated anymore. OK discuss economics in detail with me. 203-612-1987
Intelligence has nothing to do with it. I'm trying not to insult anybody. I'm trying to make people aware that doing self destructive things -- such as -- you never see the word bribe on this forum except from me.
They are all so tranced by the media words -- corporate money, campaign finance, donations, contributions, they can't get the word BRIBE out of their mouths. BRIBES are simple crimes. Congress isn't going to arrest themselves. They gave Jefferson 13 years. He had $90,000 cash in his freezer. Jim Himes hauls in $3+ million in bribes in my district.
You are too arrogant to even consider your own behavior. I'm reading your words. You'd rather be destroyed than learn you are in the same trance 99.999$ of America is in.
I'd be a lot less arrogant if someone could formulate an argument that actually counters my position. I do invite everyone to try.
I agree that we need to end the bribes. Corporations buying legislators that control regulatory agencies and thus have those corporations write their own regulator controls are insane. Having a person rule in your company's favor and then go on to get a 6 figure a year job doing nothing is insane. Passing a law that creates an unneeded construction project that employees lots of union labor and then getting financial support and campaign workers from that union is insane.
I don't have any problem with individual donations however as real people (not legal fictions) really do have the right to speech and donating time or money is putting "money where the mouth is".
I can't call you - I am at work and need the phone open in case we have a system failure or an urgent PM ticket. Friday's almost no one is actually in this wing of the building and no one in Asia or Europe has taken action since yesterday so it looks to be a slow day. If you want to private message me your email or facebook we could chat there.
I speak. What's wrong with you? You can't speak. 203-612-1987
Either call or quit your wizard bs.
Give it to him Plato. If this movement works, we will have all of america out of this exploitative, economic cave.
ows IS ridiculous. It can't possibly work.
fairy tales
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
Classic!
We can't let him dupe people here.
stevemiller would take all of that money saved and use it to get the people really behind 9/11.
I have some ocean front property for sale in Arizona too.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
...
good :) .
After what this Liberal President has done to this nation? All Liberals (and their limp wristed like) should be given a mandatory one way ticket to France. passports be confiscated, and citizenship be revoked.
Sure your a liar. We have more common sense than your giving us credit for. Go away
Some 99 percenters are more equal than others.
Ron Lawl is running republican
he is a celebrity
not representative of the libertarians