Forum Post: The libertarians came to help and you kicked em out.
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 12:01 a.m. EST by number2
(914)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This is an old post and a misunderstanding.
This Communist loves her Libertarian and Tea Party comrades <3
This is about creating a forum to address the problems we, as the 99% face. If the Libertarians and the Tea Partiers want to join in a serious discussion about the issues then they ought to be welcome. It shouldn't matter what your political ideology is as long as we're all serious about having the discussion in the first place!
That being said, people who come looking to stir trouble need to be tossed out on their ass.
Plus the Libertarian and Tea Party comrades have all the guns. So, there's that.
Please don't cry too much, I like having Ron Paulies around as it helps us destroy the current Federal Reserve. However, I am also educated so I know we need a Fed. But one run by the federal government. So please, do stick around.
yah what's wrong with the treasury handling the printing of money. Then there's no middle man collecting interest to loan us our own money.
North Dakota owns it's own Reserve and has had fewer problems than all others. And I read yesterday that California is thinking about it. That would be spectacular.
A large portion of the movement is far left and you will disagree on some fundamentals and that is to be expected. Don't let the disagreements polarize you. That has been what has been happening too long splitting the American people into two teams and playing them against each other.
It is good that you're passionate about your ideals, but when you realize your viewpoints on some issues are irreconcilable find the things you agree on and make those a reality. Non productive arguments is just organizing deck chairs on the Titanic.
exactly
The problem is that the ideals of the libertarians conflict with what is coming out of OWS.
Libertarians want less government, less regulation, less taxes. You see virtually the opposite ideals with OWS.
I agree...with libertarians we get a sort of dog eat dog situation. Great for population control but personally I don't want to see old people dying in the streets from lack of services.
Same to you, Idaltu
I'm a libertarian and I can tell you I care very much about peoples' rights, which are currently being violated routinely in this country. How arrogant of you to insinuate that I am unsympathetic or that I only care about lower taxes. Actually, lowering taxes is pretty low on my list.
I care about the fact that we are increasingly living in a police state every day. Over seas, we call it 'democracy' and 'nation building'. Here, we call it 'unamerican'. When you liberals decide you're going to stop being hypocritical and demand that these wars stop (i.e., in 7 countries) and that under no circumstances will we go in to Iran, you can talk to me about 'the rights of the people'. What about the rights of civilians who have been killed by our drones and bombs? What about the horrifically deformed depleted uranium babies? What about living in a war zone for 10 years? You know what, we have it really easy over here in the U.S., for now.
If you dare, watch the extremely moving video about our leaders' gross hypocrisy regarding OWS and these disastrous wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A
Agreed!
we don't need to get in to that right now. We can fight the corruption on Wall St. together because we agree on that.
what about the bailouts? what about the fascism?
One would presume that libertarians want those things but as soon as I posted an article at Mises.org (without profanity, without denigration) that they disagreed with, they called me a racist and banned my account.
It is stupidity whereby supposed libertarians, for all their self inflated pomp and glory as protectors for the principles of individualism and liberty engage in censorship, and more than that censorship without provocations.
Verily Mises.org can go suck a bug.
I don't think anyone is saying more regulation. There is tons of regulation out there, it just doesn't work.
Less (better yet proper) government, regulation, taxes = innovation, entrepreneurship, freedom. Do you understand why we are having the issues we are. Ever sector raping the people is doing so because of GOV subsidies.
OWS wants more democracy by the 99%. The Libertarians just want lower taxes and care nothing about the "rights of the people."
OWS wants Marxism. It's all about the right of the government to control the individual.
BS!
Must be related to oceanweed, seaglass.
I'm a libertarian and I can tell you I care very much about peoples' rights, which are currently being violated routinely in this country. How arrogant of you to insinuate that I am unsympathetic or that I only care about lower taxes. Actually, lowering taxes is pretty low on my list.
I care about the fact that we are increasingly living in a police state every day. Over seas, we call it 'democracy' and 'nation building'. Here, we call it 'unamerican'. When you liberals decide you're going to stop being hypocritical and demand that these wars stop (i.e., in 7 countries) and that under no circumstances will we go in to Iran, you can talk to me about 'the rights of the people'. What about the rights of civilians who have been killed by our drones and bombs? What about the horrifically deformed depleted uranium babies? What about living in a war zone for 10 years? You know what, we have it really easy over here in the U.S., for now.
If you dare, watch the extremely moving video about our leaders' gross hypocrisy regarding OWS and these disastrous wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A
Libertarians are not non-partisan. Instead of isolating themselves to one political party, they isolate themselves to one candidate(Ron Paul).
That's not non-partisan, that's hyper-partisan. We also tend to reject Communists and Westborough Baptists no less than them.
Also, Tea Party has yet to attend the protests. If they do, we highly suggest they leave the signs with Hitler mustaches and racial slurs at home since it doesn't represent what we believe
What do you expect them to do? They want to be noticed by the populace. I am not defending them, because I see them being swallowed up in the wheels of the republican party, but they have much better points then the DEMREPUB system.
What are their points?
Lift all regulations on businesses for sake of "Individual rights".?
Calling anyone that diagrees a "socialist"?
Spreading conspiracy theories?
Returning to the state rights paradigm that existed before the Civil War, which does, in fact permit slavery?
None of this garbage is a "point". It's just spreading hate with no positive suggestions.
Well. businesses are people too, right? The supreme court said so. LOL
The supreme court also said that George W Bush was the legitimately elected president. :(
You forgot to mention returning federal spending to less than or equal to the amount of income the federal government is generating. That one is just insane. Oh, now that I mention it, that is virtually the only stated goal of the Tea Party. The rest you pretty much read into it.
"You forgot to mention returning federal spending to less than or equal to the amount of income the federal government is generating."
Find me a single picture with a sign that says that.
The Tea Party was never about racism, it was about fiscal and economic concerns - the racism was just media hype generated by the parties of our oppression. We are anti-illegal, not anti-race... because we feel it irresponsible for our electors to expect us to support with tax revenue an entire third world continent and forgo our own needs in the process. Oh, and by the way. we're already there... and we look surprisingly like some of you.
Wow, if that's not a biased and loaded answer regarding the Tea Party (i.e., a hyper-partisan response), I don't know what is.
I say this to you - as long as you leave your red diaper and Comrade papers at home - we'll be happy to welcome you to OWS. Come on, you are the one accusing individuals of being sympathetic to Hitler and being racist.
Yeah, I'm not wearing a "red diaper" or carrying around "comrade papers" but the Tea Party literally does brings the things I mentioned. Along with signs with Hammer and Sickle and other disgusting anti-american McCarthyist trash.
Your statement only proves my point, EXACTLY!!
Yes, "them". You know how "they" are, they're all the same. I don't consider all of the OWSers to be like the ones in the Northwest starting knife fights, so don't act like all tea partiers agree with a few of the weirdos.
Let's keep everyone fighting and throw mud at people who don't agree with your viewpoint. That way once Europe fails and the U.S. follows it down the drain, we'll all be rioting over food and too busy fighting for our lives to launch any kind of useful opposition to our lying, corrupt government.
If you dare, watch this extremely moving video about our leaders' gross hypocrisy regarding OWS. And try to remember who the enemy is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A
So you're saying the Secretary of State and President need to crack down on local police?? I agree. However, YOU would probably end up bitching more about big federal government getting involved. Face it. You're just a bunch of crackpots that will bitch no matter what they do.
You're right; I'm just a crackpot that will bitch no matter what they do.
Peace out.
I couldn't agree more.
As for "If they do, we highly suggest they leave the signs with Hitler mustaches and racial slurs at home since it doesn't represent what we believe" - I say better yet, the "Tea party" should just stay home and watch the OWS protests on TV.
I'm thought those End the Fed signs were Tea Party
racial slur citation needed.
One citation coming up: http://groobiecat.blogspot.com/2011/10/tea-party-vs-occupywallstreet-party.html
Of course, just google any tea party protest in "images" and you'll see 'em. But this one's pretty clear...
http://washingtonindependent.com/73036/n-word-sign-dogs-would-be-tea-party-leader
This was actually the webmaster of Teaparty.org.
The fact that you ignore these things instead of denouncing them says even more about you than the picture.
I just logged in, I've been away from the computer. Yes, that sign is despicable.
no no no. some people are having a hard time letting go of party lines. i know i did at first. check it out, i have some resources and a poll i am taking. your concerns are as valid as anyone else
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
http://blog.richardkentgates.com
The Tea party were co opted. I am a libertarian in many ways, but we are not going to get subsumed into any party.
Sorry. We are the 99%.
just because karl rove claims he's tea party doesn't cause some chemical reaction in the tea party that makes it so.
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
............
The underlying assumption of your argument is that libertarians comprise the "largest group in this country." I don't believe that's true. But aside from that, I don't think the other premise of your argument is correct. Maybe some people are "trash talking" Ron Paul and the tea party, but mainly I see as people wielding facts against a generally extremist agenda of TP, RP, libertarians.
This isn't an attack on libertarians, RP, or the TP, per se. I think one thing that's missing in this discussion is an honest appraisal of the very deep differences between the two groups. Take government (it's needed), regulation on corporations (especially financial institutions--very needed) taxes (they're constitutional), free markets (can't solve social problems and there's no "pure" form, although the unfettered trade of derivatives was pretty laissez faire), and ending the Fed (not the top #OWS priority, if it's one at all). The #OWS is less about an "agenda driven by ideology" or a "strict reading of the constitution" or specific candidates, and more interested in a flatter, more accountable, and fairer economic and political system that prioritizes the great good. At its core, libertarianism is the opposite of this last concern: it exalts, Howard Roark-style, the rugged individual over the greater good.
And, I hate to say this, very few of the people I've debated actually seem to know how to debate or to discuss issues without using ad hominem attacks. And whenever I've brought up other successful countries (Germany, Finland, among others) have different sets of priorities and definitions of "basic rights," run robust social programs, are economically successful, and are not wild eyed marxists, I've heard maybe one libertarian address that point. I wonder why that is...
I don't know how I gave that impression to you. Libertarians are a small minority. That's why I am here trying to compromise on a few things we all can agree on. Sure there are deep differences but you'll get that amongst a 99%. I suggest that ending the fed is for the greater good of the country. And what is extreme is how massive this government is and how massive our debt is.
I don't think it is extreme at all to suggest that we don't go in to further debt by continually spending more than we have. I'm not an anarchist. Government is very important and if you can't learn from a mistake like deregulating the banks, then you are extreme. If the government weren't this leviathon that it is, I might just be a conservative. At the moment this is a police state, which is extreme and it needs a chain saw.
I agree that government is huge and unwieldy, yes. But giving block grants to states and telling them good luck is a great way to disenfranchise people, but I digress, to your other points:
As for the Fed, again, not the main issue for #OWS--although my great senator, Bernie Sanders is actually doing something about the fed, which is a good thing. (http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=70c40aba-736c-4716-97d1-45f1a1af10a0), but again, it's an agenda item not currently at the forefront of the #OWS or most of the country's priority list. Hammering on it over and over really doesn't help your cause, to be honest.
As for other divisions within the country, there's no question. But I think it's obvious that the deepest divisions are with the libertarians/TP. So, as much as the movement doesn't want to be co-opted by the democrats, the biggest worst-kept secret is that the democrats have much more in common with the movement overall. I'm not saying that the movement should embrace the dems--it won't--but merely to point out why it's so difficult to "parlay" with the libertarians. See, libertarians see government as the problem, and it is, in part, but they throw the baby out with the bath water. Social programs. Research. Highway projects. Grants. Disaster assistance. Aid to schools. These are just a few of the things that I'm guessing are important priorities to the #OWS (guessing here, now). For the libertarians? Not so much.
So, some common ground, but when you make blanket statements like the "government is a police state," are you talking about the city government or the federal government? If the latter, well, aside from the republican inspired (w/ dems' help) patriot act, then yeah, that's police state-like. No question. But there seems no division between programs and policies that are helpful (say, pollution controls) and insanity like the patriot act among your crew. Not everything needs a chainsaw, and I still don't see that acknowledgement from your side, and until there's some movement there, I can't see how these divisions can be bridged...
Peace.
I am intrigued by your views. here in Utah most people are clones for the republican party and the debate has been had. but your argument makes me think from a new angle, which is nice.
I see the deepest divisions between the republican party and the democrat party. I'm independent: socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I think my views are much less polarizing than either of the 2 parties. Sure, I would significantly reduce the size of government. But I would not get rid of the police;prisons;medical research;firemen;judges/courts,etc. Those are necessary and part of the social contract.
What I would get rid of is over-lapping agencies. For example: We don't need the department of homeland security, we have the department of defense and TSA already. I would also reduce the authority of several departments because they have become extremists. As government expands liberty contracts and freedom is the most important thing in life. Without liberty we have nothing else.
Yes, the Patriot act, the fascist private prison industry, drug war,war on terror and all. The republican party is really the fascist party. They are the worst of all but I'm not excited about socialism or communism either.
" But I would not get rid of the police;prisons;medical research;firemen;judges/courts,etc. Those are necessary and part of the social contract."
Yes, see, I'm guessing that people like you have much more in common with the #OWS--and frankly, raise the possibility of coming to agreement much more so than extremists. So, that's promising!
You raise some good points, and I agree with a lot of 'em. But I think the way the country gets out of this is to move away from old, useless terms of socialism or communism. Solutions are not ideologically driven (and theory doesn't tend to translate well into practice too well anyway). The trick is to focus instead on priorities. So, in Finland and Germany (well, Europe, in general), they believe that education is a basic right. To them, people are their most precious resource (as outrageous as that might seem to so many Americans) and so they've decided that they'd make sure that education was basically affordable for most people. This isn't socialism or marxism or any other "ism" other than humanism. In Finland, specifically, they decided to eradicate homelessness. They just thought, "Okay, every person deserves dignity and a roof of their heads." So, they executed on a plan they put in place a couple of decades ago. Are they broke? Far from it; they're one of the more successful European countries. Or, perhaps they aren't happy because the government taxes them to pay for all these social programs. Nope, that's wrong--they're consistently some of the happiest people on the planet (despite living in seriously cold conditions). But the point isn't to move to Europe, but to realize that solutions don't lie in ideological orthodoxy, but in priorities and resource allocation.
Oh, and they do believe in a more equitable distribution of resources--just as we used to do some years back with the top tax rate was slightly higher today (over 90%!).
Cheers.
www.groobiecat.blogspot.com
I have voted libertarian for the last decade or so. It doesn't mean that I am all for libertarianism, It just means that their views mostly match my own. Democrats and Republicans... nope, neither party has anything to do with me. OWS is a breath of fresh air for me.
Yeah me too. Libertarianism is closest to my world view. The Democrat party is far from it; conservatism is close; The Republican party is furthest, in that they are not really about conservatism but fascism.
"The Republican party is furthest, in that they are not really about conservatism but fascism." Isn't that the truth? What they say and what they do are so against each other. I am all for government NOT being involved in our daily lives, for that we need to accept people for what they are and what they do and what they believe in. Regulations for things that are important for human safety are important, but they are set up to benefit the large corperation who can field the costs, and against the small business because the costs of these "regulations" are too much to make a living wage/profit/etc. With all of these "regulations" we still have unsafe products shipped in from China. I will always be a fiscal conservative, who believes that people should make their own way, that people are responsible for their own decisions, but I also believe that people deserve a level playing field and I believe that government should not favor anyone. Democrats and Republcans have pushed the big government and corporatization of our country as far as I can stand it.
I am learning that there are some liberals that have the misconception that we are closer to the anarchists. I've been to Mexico and lawlessness is not the way to live. There's actually less liberty in that system. Any thing could happen to you. We would cut the government but not out of existence. However, with the corruption in this government that is tempting.
No one has been kicked out of a general assembly. This is just a forum... on the internet. This isn't OWS and doesn't represent OWS.
The ones that got booted where the Ron Paul spammers. Instead of discussing ideas and talking about problems they were cutting and pasting campaign platforms.
And that is obnoxious and doesn't help Ron Paul.
Which is why the rest of us were complaining. If i can tell which candidate you support if any then your doing it wrong.
well the beans have already been spilt but I don't that I'm obnoxious about it. If you see me getting that way, let me know.
I wrote this originally because I didn't know where the attacks were coming from. Ron Paul supporters have become very defensive because Ron Paul is attacked by the establishment, religiously. So in the beginning we were quite obnoxious to the republican establishment. I guess it's hard to transition to dealing with ordinary Americans. But the last thing Ron Paul needs is for us to be obnoxious to regular independents,liberals,conservatives, the people. I'm more libertarian than RP is actually but I can definitely cooperate with others who are not libertarian.
Please, PLEASE stop the ideological bickering. There are commonalities between all of us here such as: getting money out of politics, the corporate welfare and corporate personhood problem, to name a few. I want to add that the very concept of occupation and its internal organization is 100 % GRASSROOTS, independent of any gov't entity, something that any Libertarian/Anarchist would get behind, imho. So, please stop attacking, you're going to lose supporters; they will feel alienated and abandon the Movement. Strength in numbers, people.
End the Fed is a pretty big agreement between left and right. Accomplishing that one goal would be huge.
The trash talking may be because OWS is against any kind of partisan support. So signs promoting a politician (any politician) are frowned upon. The tea party/libertarian party is a PARTY, no better then Democrat, Republican, or Green. Even if you are for a particular candidate or organization, leave that promotion at home and bring your thoughts and an open mind when attending an occupation.
Please, PLEASE stop the ideological bickering. There are commonalities between all of us here such as: getting money out of politics, the corporate welfare and corporate personhood problem, to name a few. I want to add that the very concept of occupation and its internal organization is 100 % GRASSROOTS, independent of any gov't entity, something that any Libertarian/Anarchist would get behind, imho. So, please stop attacking, you're going to lose supporters; they will feel alienated and abandon the Movement. Strength in numbers, people.
I agree and I'm totally past this.
It's a union demonstration
Get republicans to vote yes on jobs bill-by any means necessary-POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
i mean if your online expect trolls.go to consensus where your voice is real lol
All parties are welcome!!! Just not aS whole but as individuals
Well said, I see nothing on here but bashing of libertarians and Ron Paul. Basically this has turned into a pro-socialist movement.
I'm with you man.
Libertarians basically want to get rid of the Federal Reserve Bank, and related "excess credit money", right? But in order to delete a thing such as "excess credit money" in the banks (which I agree with you on), you must control a thing, right? So let's start the war against Injustice by starting our own banks to double the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers, for many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 1% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves, and thus doubling our income from Bank Profits which are 40% of all Corporate Profits; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo
Join http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/ because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Online Congress, and related “new” Businesses, REPLACING the "old" Congress, and related “old” Businesses, according to your current Occupations & Generations, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet, a political opportunist, just like today; what's important is the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing Power & Group Investment Power. In this, sequence is key, and if the correct mathematical sequence is followed then it results in doubling the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers from today's Bank Profits, which are 40% of all Corporate Profits.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 1% Management System of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupations & Generations.
So JOIN the 2nd link, and spread the word, so we can make 100,000 support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
Libertarians are uber-capitalists and apologists for the rich.
what are you accomplishing with this statement?