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Forum Post: The Irresistible Nature of Truth

Posted 2 years ago on April 13, 2012, 10:02 p.m. EST by Puzzlin (2898)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Thomas Jefferson

I am firmly convinced that the passionate will for justice and truth has done more to improve {the human condition} than calculating political shrewdness which in the long run only breeds general mistrust.*

Albert Einstein


Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.

Thomas Paine


Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts.

E. B. White


The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored.

Aldous Huxley


And I wish no one to believe anything I have written, unless he is personally persuaded by the evidence of reason.

Descartes


Personally, in my experience, the most important part of any discourse is centered exactly and completely on the Truth.

I am a Truth Seeker _____________ ..................................................................................................................................................................

THE PUZZLER .........................................................................................................................................................

65 Comments

65 Comments


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[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6482) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Some good thoughts on truth here, thanks for posting.

[-] 3 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

It's does motivate me quite a bit.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6482) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

of course one of the problems with real truth is that it is completely useless as it cannot be manipulated, that's one of ways to tell you've found a good one

still life based on truth tends to be better….

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

This is a good point. As one homes in on the evident truth, it can also be found that the truth is not known so well and is still a work in progress. Not all truths are easy to find and some are not only elusive, but some can not be found period.

What needs to be known, is exactly that, what is known conclusively, and what may be pure speculating. Many times the so called truth is paraded out and claimed as true, but far from.

As you look, these tidbits will be learned. It is always well worth the effort!

Again, this point is right on the nail head. Just because someone claims truth doesn't make it so. It must always be investigated for worthiness.

The Puzzler

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Truth in nature is objective. Truth when dealing with human relations is mostly subjective, if an objective truth exists in politics, it is very difficult to prove.

Which lends to the old adage when dealing with people, 'there are at least three versions of the truth.... your version, my version.. and the truth".

[-] 3 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

LMAO, GEO, man, every know and again, someone like you throws down few words that sum it up quite well.

So true, and this what is very evasive about the truth, there's the objective truth we can be damn sure is happening whether we recognize it or not. And then, there's the other one that we subjugate according to our perception of how we think it is.

Politics plays in that subjective realm where the truth is much harder to discern but we try like hell by considering past history, trends, polls, surveys, editorials, news, opinion news, eyewitness accounts, money trails, underlying motives, previous behavior, previous mistakes, and on and on. Yes, this is why it's so hard to decipher. Largely who has the time outside their everyday lives, to watch all these clowns. I guess we know that answer, not many, explains why we (collectively) can elect criminals to office. (I'm one of the few watches close enough to see who's lying like hell.)

Subjective Truth. plenty for all of us to enjoy. Have fun!

The Puzzler

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

As a scientist (geologist) I deal in objective truths. When I try to use the same technics in the realm of social dealings, the shit gets deep quickly, and I find myself lost in a maze of illusions with no horizons...lol. It often comes down to one persons word against another.

One of my favorite oxymoron's is the term 'Political Science'. Thanks for the kind words.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

GEO, ok now I understand. I'm an electronics design engineer. This explains our dilemma. We can no longer accept the flowering wondrous explanations for life that are so alluring but we never could quite grasp. Tried to hold on but couldn't do it. Reason won. (I used to hear people say the answer is in your heart...seems simple enough until I think too hard, LoL) We were compelled to find our work in the sciences because it drew us in. It was intentional and we found our future there. Speaking for myself, I enjoy my work immensely and it really has helped me understand just what this science is and what it can do. It's quite a beautiful dance as it turns out.

Hey, good luck my friend, and glad your in here considering how we can make a difference in world. Understanding is the goal which allows us to move in very effective ways. But, as we both realize, understanding isn't free, and, in fact, many times it comes at a high price. If we want it, we have to do the work period!!! The shortcuts don't work, and many have looked silly taking them.

The Puzzler

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Finally, a brother trained in logic and reason, and a seeker of truth who really understands what it takes to obtain it. Glad to have come across you as you are the first of our kind that I have found here.

"I expound the grounds on which we may doubt in general of all things, and especially of material objects, so long at least, as we have no other foundations for the sciences than those we have hitherto possessed. Now, although the utility of a doubt so general may not be manifest at first sight, it is nevertheless of the greatest, since it delivers us from all prejudice, and affords the easiest pathway by which the mind may withdraw itself from the senses; and finally makes it impossible for us to doubt wherever we afterward discover truth."

Renee Descartes, 1641

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Excellent quote to ponder the method by which we may fruitfully precede. I came across Descartes early during my philosophical quest for truth. He did leave us with that damned mind-body problem as he made that famous statement, "I think, therefore I am." The greats knew the right questions to ask even though most of them, as far as we could possibly know now, are forever to remain a mystery until, at least, we get ourselves out of whatever it is we got ourselves into here and shuffle off the mortal coil.

The mystery is what invites us in, and upon arrival we only seek the truth...

It's the fantastic journey as I swim out towards the truth where ever it may lead. I will take to the stars if I could only see the way. The dream never fades but only deepens. Life has much good in it and if we pay attention we can take some steps that will be worthy accomplishments. Thoughts leading to action. We're freely on this planet for the action, we just need to decide intelligently what to do and exert our energy wisely. We may then live out our full potential living life fully. Funny thing is, I've been on this path a long now, it becomes us by habit, as I can attest. It's in my bones, and like it or not, I will always forage for the truth and be an activist. This doesn't stop, the world is wacked, and needs help severely, with awareness comes undeniable responsibility for all of us from all of us.

We do indeed have purpose! And, good luck! Your at the right place. Ideas get put into action every day!

The Puzzler

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6482) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I remember Sherlock Holmes said when you take away everything that's impossible what you have left is the truth. I see that in what you say as you examine things the lies are reveled, this does not always take you to where you want to go, just where you need to....

[-] 3 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

"just where you need to..."

Very true, arriving at the truth is the end goal, you must set aside all biases and wishes and follow the method, generally scientific. We don't always like where we arrive but we have to accept it as long as it's proven evidently.

Personally, good, bad, or indifferent, finding truth is always worth the trouble. I'm not obsessed with it, it's hard work, but it helps you understand. That's the reward at the end, understanding your self in the context of the Planet Earth as it speeds along in this vast infinite Universe.

Good Luck, it takes a lifetime. And, at the very very end, we will never be done :D Enjoy!

Puzzlin

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

that's interesting in fiction where complicated situations can be fixed by the author

I more often ascribe to Ocrum's Razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Occams Razor is inherently biased and generally not accepted in the sciences as a means to generate a valid hypothesis.

If you can't decide among two competing hypothesis, then you simply do not have enough observational evidence. Choosing one over the other based on succinctness is not valid. In this case saying 'I don't know' is preferred and that more work is necessary to determine the truth.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6482) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

besides puzzlin had taken all the big guys on truth already

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6482) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I didn't take time to read the whole wiki piece, but I do have a somewhat different view of Occam's Razor, though I must admit the one in wiki and as you use it here seems to be the prevailing application.

I see it as a tool to reduce things to simpler terms by defining systems, this is something I am very familiar with and is used throughout industries. The Razor is use to "cut" through the larger object so it can be examined in detail, perhaps I missed the point when I read about this.

To the larger point I am not so sure that the philosophers are that much more rigorous than authors in defining their points, for instance, “war is the last refuge of the incompetent” is no less true because Asimov said it rather than Kierkegaard.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

war is often a result of laziness

it is easier to kill someone that disagrees than negotiate with them

[-] 3 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

"The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored."

best one,. and that is the truth.

[-] 3 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Another gem. The truth stands all on it's own. It requires no one to prop it up.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

That's right. The truth is the light, and it will lead us to the light.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

That it will, we have to work at it and it will.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

It is true we each have our own truth because the truth is the meaning of facts to us.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

You hit the nail on the head, Puzzler. It is the truth that will save us, and that is why we are going to be subjected to one hell of an attempt to confuse and demoralize us. When I look at the graphic for "A Midsummer Night's Dream" on this forum I am inspired! Where there is truth and human commitment anything is possible. Truth is the light that guides us! Thanks!

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Absolutely, there is strength in being on the side of truth!!!

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

My scientific approximation of the truth may be more accurate than your absolute revealed truth.

Those who believe the truth is whatever they believe it to be, will camp at the bottom of the canyon by the river.

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

The truth is a weapon the enemy will also use. In this case it is the admittance that will defeat its purpose. The truth is something we must all be willing to embrace and pursue, because in the end we must have no enemies but only truth.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Nice.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

That's what I thought!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I really relate to this one:

And I wish no one to believe anything I have written, unless he is personally persuaded by the evidence of reason.

Descartes

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Descartes was a genius in his time. His quote clearly shows one reason why this was so. It's the same thing I want. If I speak the truth, it always has a bigger message behind it. It's the evidence of it's worthiness to be called the truth. The evidence surpasses the words used to point at it.

The Puzzler

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Also - do not rely on another to provide you with truth - do not just blindly accept - but look for yourself. {:-])

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Exactly, and that is the truth. Everyone needs to own it intimately!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes - the same way we need to own our government and all of our democratic processes. Do not leave it to someone else.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

"If someday they say of me that in my work I have contributed something to the welfare and happiness of my fellow man, I shall be satisfied."

-- George Westinghouse

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

That sounds good to me! I could live with that legacy. Good quote Joe!

Puzzlin'



[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

“Man... hath by nature a power .... to preserve his property - that is, his life, liberty, and estate - against the injuries and attempts of other men.”

John Locke quote

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

John Locke was crucial to Thomas Jefferson, he learned much from him and had influence on his thinking.


Here's another quote from Locke:

“To love truth for truth's sake is the principal part of human perfection in this world, and the seed-plot of all other virtues.”

Thanks!

The Puzzler

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Yet, another, this interest in truth is contagious. I like it!

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. Winston Churchill

and .............................

Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing wrong with this, except that it ain't so. Mark Twain

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Excellent, thanks for the additions!

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Thank you for your post. It's food for thought. To add to Thomas Jefferson's quote (I know everyone knows this by heart, but as a reminder):

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Cheers ;)

[-] 3 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Wisdom is wonderful thing, good for us that our founding fathers had ample supply.

[-] 2 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

They had the truth of the past with a unique opportunity having guidence and Independence enough to gain an experience that taught them how correct their concept was.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Absolutely! Jefferson loved to read and he was one who did learn everything he could from the past. He made a path that blazed a way forward instead repeating past mistakes over and over and over to nausea.

The Puzzler

[-] 3 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

The written past is a relatively new thing. It was mostly carried in oral histories up until perhaps 15 bc.

I'm just studying this now. I'm amazed at how completely the facts are covered, or NOT written down at all. For example, The Magna Carta, it is not written that it was a peace treaty, or, basically that there is a lost war! People don't realize that the losers signed!

Americans today have NO clue as to who the winners were, OR how they won!

Jefferson and Franklin certainly did, but, any writings have been gathered up and burned, or hidden under the vatican.

The principles of the victors of the lost war are the same that embody some of the very best of the Constitution for the United States of America.

No fucking wonder I can't get anybody to discuss Article V or strategy for it(:

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Another little gem of wisdom to realize about history is this: who wrote it? It was always the rich people. Reading and writing is also a fairly new progression. Before that people were instructed about religion and other tall stories which about all they knew.

That said, we have a long way to go. Reading and writing is great but doing them well with a critical mind is quite another. Many people still don't believe in evolution even though it's a proven fact. They say it's just a theory. But gravity is just a theory too. Point is, they don't know what a scientific theory really is.

Well, there always is hope, but through understanding you can know what your pinning this hope on, at least.

Puzzlin

[-] 1 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

"Why was the written word promoted?" is an important question. A good case can be made for the possibility it was to eradicate oral histories that people can keep naturally. It turns out that in an oral history, lies will not be remembered.

With the written word they can be written down, while the book with the written truth can be burned. It is easier to burn books than people.

An inference not made here, a piece consolidating facts of medicine by Colin Wilson,

http://truthasaur.tripod.com/twominds1.html

Is that speech made or heard always uses some cognitive process while reading and writing might be done with **no rational processing".

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Interesting idea. I think we can trace the written word back to when man started delving into science. Once we had the printing press, the word gained power. Ideas are very powerful, especially when they can be shared everyone at once. But as time progressed the written word became more of the spoken word. More can certainly be understood when we speak the word. SO true it is, but usually on a more personal nature and not the general nature which the word already implies.

[-] 2 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

"Spelling" was an attribute of Witchcraft originally. Runes to aid in recall of what spell was cast upon whom, when. It is likely some of them moved into religion and promoted the printing press to print the bible whereupon written history became the only one safe to keep. Witchcraft became Alchemy, then science, so indirectly you are correct.

As long as our history is controlled by those with power and publishing of the written word, we will not be able to keep or know the true past, even our own.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Quite interesting. I will have to investigate this claim of yours. You don't happen to have some sources for me to follow up on, do you?

[-] 4 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

I'm working from oral histories and the written versions explaining this were burned long ago. Common sense of etymology in this case is pretty consistent.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 2 years ago

This is an excellent post. I really like the quotes here. The truth is irresistible. We have to always come to terms with it no matter whether we may like it or not. Those who ignore truth do it to their peril.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago


Some ask why, well here's an answer:

Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts.

[-] 1 points by ComeTogetherNOW (650) 2 years ago

I like that one, have to remember that.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

Yes and what is Prejudice but blatant inequality. The same Problem humans have been struggling with for eternity. It makes one ask the question, what the Hell were our forfathers thinking... Created Equal?

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Yes, because we have inalienable rights.

The words will stand for forever as the truth. The only question will be, are we paying attention and aware, or are we ignoring it.

They say ignorance is bliss. Careful what you wish for. Something tells me that bliss comes with some deadly sharp edges.

[-] 1 points by junglemonkeez (208) 2 years ago

I don't know how inalienable they are, check out Burger guy vs Computer guy forum

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Well, they can try, but these rights we have when we are born and they never are to be subjected to popularity polls. In this case, the mob doesn't rule, the truth rules and trumps ALL.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

In war, truth is the first casualty. Aeschylus Greek tragic dramatist (525 BC - 456 BC)

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Count on it Relentlessly. No quarter.

[-] 1 points by Pequod (17) 2 years ago

"You're damned if you do and damned if you dont."

Bart Simpson.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Well, nobody said it would be easy...

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