Forum Post: The Human Condition: Occupy and Leaders
Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 10, 2013, 1:03 p.m. EST by TropicalDepression
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
It's my belief that the reason occupy exploded so quickly, was that it was long overdue. This nation is fucked up. The bankers are clenching down, and the people are waking up.
All of that "freedom" propaganda is going to eventually be what does in this establishment. The more they squeeze, the more slips through the cracks.
But the nature of those in power is to continue to squeeze. Continue to grip. Because that's the human condition.
When you have power, there is no need to address problems. There's no need to listen. There's really no need to worry about anything at all. Thats why we have the current mess.
Centralized power with no glimmer or chance of losing it. I'm not talking about specific individuals. I'm talking about a system. Its designed for it. Dont hate the player. hate the game, right? Not that those with it should be let off the hook, but its short sighted to expect anything different when a system is designed to give us exactly what we are getting.
Look at whats going on. We are witnessing things that are appalling on so many levels, at EVERY level of government. And while the world has always been fucked up, I do enjoy asking older people how this relates to things now vs their time on the planet. They always answer with a resounding emphasis that this is truly the most fucked up time economically.
The shit the banks are doing, the shit the politicians are doing, and yes the things that we as everyday people are doing.....this is heading in a direction that is going to be, well, ugly.
So the argument for direct democracy is an obvious alternative for this. And while mob rule is a bit terrifying on some levels, in the words of Jack Nicholson:
"When you're facing a loaded gun, whats the difference?"
Jeremy
Detroit was a set up.
"Splain how that worked.
http://inthesetimes.com/article/15433/decades_of_discrimination_and_corporate_chaos/
"decades of discrimination and corporate chaos" pretty much explains it all.
I think the mayor there is in jail, correct? Lord only knows how many cops should be, and other politicians.
Currently Detroit and the State of Michigan are buried under a pile of libe(R)tarian tyranny. Fed by the Koch's and legislated by ALEC.
Then there's this guy.
http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/08/detroit-emergency-manager-orr-painting-a-much-bleaker-picture-than-reality-suggests.html
The liar in chief.
Uh, yeah,....but what are there, 1 or 2 former mayors In jail? Did you miss TD's question?
Adages from movies, don't do much for me, and I see little reason to accept them.
I prefer the reality of the lies they tell.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130811/NEWS01/308110055/Detroit-Kevyn-Orr-bankruptcy-pension-Truth-about-Detroit
What State are you in?
Do you EVER deign to answer a "difficult" question, asswipe?
Well Mr. Toilet paper, the real question, is do you have a firm grip on reality, and do you ever respond to what is actually said.
Here's some more information for you.
Detroit's "bankruptcy", is completely unnecessary.
It's just another libe(R)tarian plot to profiteer the commons, by altering YOUR perceptions and controlling the message.
Now, hold your knee down and actually read some stuff.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130811/NEWS01/308110055/Detroit-Kevyn-Orr-bankruptcy-pension-Truth-about-Detroit
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/the-wrong-lesson-from-detroits-bankruptcy/
http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/122_153/richard-larkin-detroit-bankruptcy-commentary-1054496-1.html
It's just more disenfranchisement and union busting.
Oh, and in answer to your question, even though YOU failed to answer mine........1.
Now, what State did you say you were in?
.
Uh, all this back and forth and you STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED the orginal question from TD....is there, or is there not, some former (S)? mayors of DEEtroit in the hoosegow?
Educated by (R)epelican't coupon schools then?
Suffering from the resultant, low comprehension?
"Oh, and in answer to your question, even though YOU failed to answer mine........1."
Which of course has little to do with anything, except in your tiny mind.
If that coupon school that educated you imparted very much, you should be able to comment on the information in the links provided.
I love the pretense that some of the younger generations have about how this is some new issue. I find this to be quite in line with public amnesia. In fact, history has a definite way of repeating itself. More so when you look at the economics. As it were, it would seem that those of the younger generations that suffer from that amnesia would need to be the ones to WTF up. Most of the time, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.
You talk about system but you don't clearly define that. You talk about decentralization but you don't clearly define it. What I don't think that you can see is that by engaging in the type of public amnesia-you are in fact upholding some of the intentional douchebaggery of the same system that you wish to escape from.
We keep looking at the banks, which is great. I am not trying to fire anyone up, but right now, throughout this world, kids are dying, teens are dying, adults are dying for freedoms. Here we are in the US....almost dead and apathetic to our world. Obamacare, while great on a few levels, looks as if it is going to explode. Groups are being targeted by government agencies We have no idea how much info the govt is holding on us People bitch and complain, but there is no organized, persistent voice that makes anyone worry I think that as Occupy grows, and does things like the credit card, we can get some real change going. Tear up the credit cards as a group, use the card and cash. Be focused....Just an idea
I think a lot of work to get to a working direct democracy involves getting people themselves to change. Demoracy relies on responsible, caring and clear-sighted people. In our culture and society that is so full of hostile and scared people, many people are not that, and thus a direct democracy will not work entirely until we are. On the point of leaders, I think many people look to leaders as someone who effectively runs everything; the one with the plan, the authoritarian, and the guide. I think the change in the purpose of the US President since the formation of the US, besides the very existence of dictators, shows what I mean. I think properly functioning leaders are more interdependant with those they lead, being both a guide and voice for those they stand with. I think a defining difference between a leader and a tyrant or authoritarian is that a leader views themself as one of the group given the position of guide and voice whereas the others view themselves as apart from or above the group.
scratch the all or nothing conclusion
a tyrant is a person that rules though violence
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A fraud?
Just about every system allows for rule by warlords, as our current one proves. Its up to the populace to maintain an effort.
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Anarchy is an open system. Therefore, there is no "approved" just as occupy is, which in the end means one of us doesnt understand whats going on. Its not me. You can go around here clamoring for blood and wanting heads to roll all you want, telling this person and that they are right, wrong or indifferent.
At the end of the day, as you stated earlier:
"we have equal right to the determination of its contours"
Do you associate mob rule with warlords immediate takeover? Because a war run system is what we are currently in, and yet the "representatives" seem to have a 90%+ re-election rate.
Clearly thats not working. So lets break it down to the community level and let people get involved again.
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John Lewis wasnt blocked, he was simply asked to wait his turn, of which his schedule wouldnt permit. No leaders means no leaders. It means someone cannot simply show up with an impressive resume and cut to the front of the line.
"“They didn’t really deny me,” Lewis said. The protestors decided he could return after their agenda items had been completed, but because of the Pride event, Lewis didn’t have time to wait around. The group has since issued a statement saying, “We are dismayed that anything we have done would seem to show disrespect for a man whom many of us revere, and apologize to everyone who was hurt or angered by our actions.” And they say Lewis can come back."
It was a bunch of right wing jack asses that said they "wouldnt" let him speak. That was total and 100% bullshit.
The fact that you dont realize this is a failure of the media, which is also ran by the same system we are protesting.
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Right, ignore what Lewis himself said.
Thats what the right wingers did immediately after this. Said he was blocked from speaking. He wasnt. He was blocked from jumping the line, and I appreciate them sticking to the script despite the star power he brought.
Stop lying. I got flooded with that video after it happened, from people just like you saying "you people are fucked up" when none of you understood what happened or how the GA functions.
Fox reported it and you all ran with it. Just another example of the media fucking the whole thing up.
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You fail to understand why Occupy's implementation of GA and direction democracy failed. It's not because anarchy is a failure. It has to do with the implementation. Read my post for clarification: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-occupy-ga-and-direct-democracy-failed-and-wher/
Also, there's no need to use profanity on this site. We aren't children. I'm sure you are able to express yourself like a mature adult.
If you want GA's run like Tea Parties, you can go find all the people you want and put them on a pedestal.
Here, Hartman breaks down the OA event and compares it with Tea People events, and shows how fucked up the later is. If that is what you want, you are in the wrong place dude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVIYMCnWLys
Here's Lewis himself speaking about the process and consensus, said he used to go through the same stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XCLBNkBvL0
Now go ahead and threaten me some more.
The whole 'repeat after me' mantra/chant thing scares me. Lewis must have been thinking, are you going to let me speak or what? Who's idea was it to repeat everything the speaker says? It reminds me of the scene in Fight Club where Meatloaf gets shot.
Honestly a lot of time it was needed because bullhorns and loudspeakers were outlawed without a permit- how fucked up is that. Too many people and those in the back simply cant hear.
This guy had one, and yes, having to repeat things when everyone can hear fine is annoying as hell.
GA run like a Tea Party? Huh....did that really make any sense? How many people did OWS get elected in 2012.....besides Obomber?
Look at how many gave twinkles for "continue with the agenda".. etc...
You think you can just march around telling this that and the other person fuck you? While blatantly lying about what happened?
If I have to explain this event to another main stream bystander, I might set my own hair on fire!!
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You would have already discussed this event ad nauseum and knew the truth.
Whether you did or didnt doesnt really matter, what matters is that lies are not still.....over a year later.....being cast about this. Man, this shit just doesnt stop.
Unreal.
the internet daily drone report
ZenDog, regardless of whatever validity and accuracy or lack there of there is in the points you've made, you're being hostile, rude, and are harming an on-topic discussion. Please be respectful.
And you are intentionally obtuse.
HA! Do you think a puppy can change his spots?
You sure haven't.
The 'problem' with anarchy and direct democracy is that they rel on healthy minded, politically active and responsible people. Entire communties of people that meet all of those standards are, right now, not particularly common. The conditions necessary for direct democracy or anarchy to work on a large scale has rarely been met historically, so there are few large-scale examples to give. There are plenty of smaller community-based ones, though. Also, that is a misuse of the word fraud-just because their viewpoint may differ (and as far as I can tell based on their comments here, they don't) that doesn't mean that they're presenting information they believe to be false to further an agenda-that is, being fraudulent.
How does one stop a fraud like this?
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/09/rand_pauls_week_of_delusion/?source=newsletter
Or a fraud like this?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/county-in-florida-tries-to-help-citizens-alec-post/
Or the fraud being perped on the city of Detroit?
http://www.freep.com/article/20130811/NEWS01/308110055/Detroit-Kevyn-Orr-bankruptcy-pension-Truth-about-Detroit
The real fraud, is ignoring these things.
You are right there arent a lot of those types of people around these days. But I'm not a big fan of waiting for the opportunity to be perfect before moving forward, I'd rather just jump in and get going. It could be bad, but at the current rate I'd rather take the risk and give the people a real shot to change this instead of relying on politicians to save them.
Its hard to imagine how it would turn out, because of so many variables and how does one get a system of decentralized and for the people when the entire system right now is interconnected and ran by corporations.
I didn't mean that we therefore shouldn't actively work to use and create democracy; I was merely pointing the problem with it as many people are now. I think that creating it now will itself help people change into exactly what is required for democracy to work.
And, while those things are definitely atrocious and/or irresponsible, I think fraudulant is an inaccurate term.
Good post. But the big question is how do we get from point A to point B? Everyone knows the problems, and a few have proposed alternatives. But I don’t think I read any post that provides a plausible avenue to get the changes implemented.
The changes needed are massive and probably half the people aren’t interested in some new type government. Most just want the government to be more honest and for the financial system stop robbing the people. I don’t see any short term resolution. It’s going to take two or three generations before attitudes change.
Through Trans-Partisan Cooperative Voting http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/ the People can democratically obtain a better kind of government. Even without Trans-Partisan Cooperative Voting, the People throughout the country can pass initiatives in their own cities to establish public banks and in 23 states to establish state banks that, along with North Dakota's state bank, would form a Union Reserve Bank with its own Union Reserve Notes. Avoiding politics altogether, the People of the cooperative community could simply establish a national credit union and a national mutual insurance company http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-cooperative-union/ to financially secure everyone from the financial elites.
The question isn't so much how do we get from point A to point B as it is will the People ever give a damn about leaving point A?
I think GA's are the epitome of how it needs to happen. Yes, its messy and a real pain, and sometimes a real boring ride, but at it's core the General Assembly is open to all, to propose and to be part of the process.
Provides a platform to which work can be done.
Thats all it takes. People getting together and figuring things out instead of hoping some politician does it for them.
Unfortunately, as we saw with Occupy, getting the people to come out is the hardest part.