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Forum Post: The calm before the storm.

Posted 2 years ago on July 27, 2012, 6:25 p.m. EST by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Most of you have listened to me ramble on about the recovery being a fraud for a few months now. Now most of you can see the fraud being uncovered in the recent news and you also can see that what I said about low demand being the cause for this and unemployment as well as wages are stagnate or unchanged at best.

This has actually been a calm period relative to the scale of this economic plague. The stimulus was like steroids, a fast show of strength and seeming resilience but also like steroids, it's only a temporary fix and also has side effects.

The side effect is inflation which is being held at bay by the feds misreporting and other financial trickery. The unemployment up-ticked during the period of the year that hiring should have been strongest. Inflation cannot be held at bay once the fraud is removed. The regulators after being embarrassed because fraud that was uncovered by other departments doing their job, they now are pushing to regulate things that were never even mentioned by Dod-Frank or Glass Steagall. Talk by the CTFC of requiring software to run certain numbers.

At any rate, wages are now and have been woefully inadequate to sustain the high volume demand that our version of capitalism has come to require. That still has not changed and we now head into the winter with all of it's impending layoffs from the service sector, on top of our already unacceptable employment numbers. The Europeans have panicked and the ECB is now willing to begin printing cash.

It's going to be a shitty winter, fuck what the mainstream media is try'n to sell.



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[-] 5 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

The corporate expectation of future profits have been revised downwards. That is NOT conducive to expanding employment unless the public sector picks up the slack. That will NOT happen because our political system is already nearly quadriplegic with its eyes transfixed on the ELECTION whilst its wheelchair is rolling towards the Niagara Fall. Ironically, the path was premeditated, preset, and programmed by ITSELF for political expediency.

Governments' hammering everything that pops up with the hammer of credit expansion is an illusion that corporations are smart enough to see through and will eventually lead to inflation. It propped up the numbers but unfortunately "eventuality" has the nasty property of becoming the "here and now." We are probably in for a bout of rapid inflation to "re-balance" the supply and demand (such as for basic food stuff and credit). Of course, the U.S. government's measuring the not-so-basic stuffs' prices by excluding the "volatile food and energy prices" eliminates that embarrassing statistic problem. Who does NOT eat and use energy so that their prices are irrelevant? For the rich, perhaps, but NOT for the vast majority of people.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

inflation is/has already occurring

that is why the banks own the houses through bigger and bigger loans

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

Housing price inflation surely made huge number of people deliriously ecstatic for quite a while until the bubble popped. There was pressure to dissuade the prophets from shrieking in the wilderness or the regulators from "taking away the punch bowl" when the party really gets going. A wild night's boozing and partying can really give one an awful hangover. It took a while but the pot did boil over, did it not?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the housing bubble never popped

that may have been marginal market fluctuation

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

We can call that renormalization of housing prices. Anything that is NOT infinite or zero can be renormalized with numbers generated out of thin air. All that the U.S. government did to avoid the rapid and painful financial collapse was to turn it into a slow-motion time-lapsed horror show with the curse of Cassandra put on those who know. The train wreck will still be a train wreck no matter how slowly one runs the film but maybe the time lapses can pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate until after the ELECTION on which we have our eyes transfixed so that we do NOT have to fix the structural problem at this juncture. Do we know what the structural problem is? I do (speaking for myself only as a capitus of ONE).

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Few want to fix the structural problems; too many are focused on trying to save the already drowned victim from the torrent of economic collapse. I have come to believe the coming election, whatever sham party or candidate wins, will be a watershed point. Everything after that will go in one direction.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

Elections bring us hope for changes for the better. All too often though, we were promised the pie in the sky so we looked up and sure enough we ended up having the damned cow-pies in our faces again! I have started to wonder if our repeated experiences are actually trying to tell us something about the existence of a structural problem.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I recall the saying, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

Here we are voting and voting again expecting different results. Madness is not being aware of committing the same error repeatedly somehow hoping the results may be different.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

I have just thought of a creative solution that the U.S. government may have used. I should start casting null-votes. The Arabs invented zero so the U.S. must better that mathematical achievement by innovating nullity into everything we do.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

There is such a thing as negative numbers. We can use those too.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

The U.S. innovating negativity into everything we do would be too obvious to others and violates our neutrality (as embodied in Clark Gable's famous line, "Frankly, my dear - I don't give a damn.").

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

Who ever said we are neutral?

If we don't like positive or negative, left or right, which seems to be the only choices given to us these days, there is also such a thing as "imaginary numbers which lets one move vertically on a coordinate plot. That way we can avoid moving either left or right in real numbers. Oh, excuse me, I just realized using imaginary numbers is what the government accounting office is doing. In combination with positive and negative real numbers, imaginary numbers allows one to move in any direction one wants.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

Yes, complex numbers constructed from the linear combinations of real and imaginary numbers have merits for our accounting. By dividing a revenue enhancement or expenditure item into parts we can veil the actual temperatures. Following a page from China's playbook, we must classify as "state secret" the temperature of the thin air out of which we create the financial dark energy to prevent global financial implosion. Judicious placement of internal energy will allow us to warp our fiscal manifold at will. Negative energy can create a wormhole for us to escape to a different universe when dark energy no longer suffices.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

Wow! You must be an economist working for the Fed.

LoL Cheerio

[-] 2 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

I hope Queen Elizabeth II will not take offense at our Fed's bringing in QE3 so shortly after her Diamond Jubilee. God save our gracious Queen! Here is a salute to the glory of her wise and good!

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The Mayans also developed the concept of zero, though they used a base of twenty rather than ten. I once read, they might have come up with that idea after counting through all their fingers and toes once.

However the Mayans achieved their remarkable feats of mathematics, they faded into the darkness of time. I believe the curtain of European-based civilization is now starting to close.

[-] 3 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

It is highly plausible that the Mayans knew of the idea of zero because it is such a breakthrough concept that had let mathematics take on wings and they extended their calendar to our time supposedly "ending" in this year causing all of the hoopla about yet another "end of the world."

For Christians who have faith in what the Bible says: the Earth endures forever and the seasons shall never cease. For those faithful Christians who have the temperament of John Paulson and do not suffer the qualms, it is ideal time to sell end-of-the-world insurance to glorify God's Covenant.

The Mayan civilization crashed after many bloody wars, perhaps precipitated by the ecological collapse due to overpopulation, deforestation, and climate change. European-based civilization's obsession with unlimited growth and other civilizations' envying and joining it will likely go through the same type of collapse. Nature always "wins" in the long run.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUxjZhquwPk C. Hedges onBill Moyers very eye opening

Seems many are getting really frustrated doing the same thing over and over, and not getting different results.

Click the link: to see purlitzer prize winning author, journalist, historian: great books and info on how we arrived where we are at.

You would think the people could be able to solve some of our problems without so much drama, if they would put their minds to it and work together. We teach our kindergartners to work better than what our government gives us.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

Yes, I really do not like TitusMoans' "Everything after that will go in one direction." As in all roads lead to Rome? So that no matter what we do, we will end up having the sovereign-debt crisis.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Man can not govern man - But I won't give up trying for the "people" to give it a real go.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The next step in economic-political evolution is the destruction of class-based societies. The only real question about that future is how will it be accomplished.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Two ways.

1) Total public involvement in government with total public control of business or business practices.


2) The 2nd coming of Christ.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Can I pick door number three?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (27542) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sure - Bob tell our contestant what is behind door #3...........

[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

Let woman govern man. That will be a change alright.


[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

She seems promising. I will research her candidacy more.


[-] 1 points by grapes (2742) 2 years ago

No but that is something that I can look into.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

What's about to pop is the "debt bubble" and when it does things are going to get a lot worse.

The 5 trillion that this administration put out on the street was disbursed to make it look like things were getting better - but were not.

Look at the stock market and how each time the feds print more money and dumps it into the economy, the stock marekt goes up

There is no "business investment" out there to be invested in - only investment in what's already there - no new businesses or start ups to prop up the stock market.

Inflation over the past several years has caused prices to double on just about every item that the consumer purchases.

The only areas that are doing great are the electronics - Apple and Samsung are making billions in profits - wonder why that is?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

people keep buying electronics

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

government spends money on JOBS - infrastructure, etc
government raises taxes on rich & corps
responsible Americans get rid of the obstructionists in
congress from ONE of the parties - grover's toadies

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Thats great if you want to perpetuate party talking points. The one you mention is from the Dems. While I am a Demcrat, their solution is no better than any offered by the Republicans. The one thing neither party wants to talk about is wages. I'd like to see how long the country floats along with no workers if the gov can't do their job and begin sticking up for the American people. The systematic embezzlement of labor value needs to come to an end or capitalism will come to an end, and that's a global issue.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

The minimum wage should be raised but unless the GOVERNMENT spends thae money ( as above ) we will lose. This is not "talking points"
It will work.
Increasing the minimum wage yo $10 will create very few jobs

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Statistics say otherwise. an increase in minimum wage preceded every period of substantial economic growth in american history.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

I'd rather hire out of work infrastructure builders at $15 an hour
note - I AM in favor for minimum wage increase but hiring the unemployed will have a far bigger effect ( ask FDR )

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

More jobs require a higher level of demand (RE:Supply&Demand) to justify the hiring. An increase in demand can only come from releasing the suppressed demand of the lower income brackets that has been systemic for 40+ years through a growing gap between inflation and sluggish wage growth. The other levels of income earners have only slightly and temporarily modified spending habits from the economic downturn and do not have a chronic disposition with respect to creating demand.

So ultimately, to get the job numbers up as you suggest you first need higher demand and there needs to be an increase of disposable income among low wage earners for that to happen. You need a substantial and sustained increase in the minimum wage.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Here's my math:
FACT: 1.8M now work at minimum wage 7.25/hour

if we raise this to $10/ hour
there are 6M between 7.25 and 10.00 on average, this would be $1.13/hour 6,000,000 x 40hr x $1.13 = $270,000,000 increased demand OR 1,000,000 infrastucture workers at $10/hour 1,000,000 x 40 x $10.00 = $400,000,000 increased demand

these numbers do not include two important truths:
struggling with NO job is much worse than struggling at minimum wage.
reducing unemployment instantly cuts government spending on unemployment and that money can be better used in training programs

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Increasing minimum wage lifts the entire wage market, not just the bottom rung. What would the infrastructure workers be making if minimum wage was still $3.25 an hour? 7?, 8?, 9?, certainly not $10. Add that to your math and get back to me.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

If the sweeper goes from 7.25 to 10, why does his manager go from 12. to 14.? What part of the math is wrong? I showed & calculated infrastructure people at 10 ( probably would be 15 )

these numbers do not include two important truths: 1 struggling with NO job is much worse than struggling at minimum wage. 2 reducing unemployment instantly cuts government spending on unemployment and that money can be better used in training programs

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

You're going to cut government spending by spending government money!?

I don't have to show how the wage market moves as a whole to make it true. We both know it happens.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I am NOT in favor of cutting spending I am in favor of taxing the people who have leeched off of us for decades
some of us call then the 1%
others of us call them willard's supporters others of us call them gordon gekko

just to be clear - I am not sure I'm right and you are wrong

Can you provide some statistics about the last time minimum wages went up-
what % did they go up and how long did it take for "other" wages to go up how much?

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

It never occurred to me that this was a right or wrong debate. I felt it more of a debate about the order in which the actions should be taken to get the best effect. Also, I push the topic of wages in every corner of the web that I visit. Both the things I have mentioned and the things you mentioned are all steps that should be taken. My overarching point in this conversation and one I am carrying on with arturo is that without a long term fix for our wage policies, we would be setting ourselves up for another default in another 20 years, and that's if we could even recover at all without some increase to wages now. A hollowed out middle class is why the failure of a few banks had such an impact. A strong middle class helps to stabilize the economy and makes the economy much more resilient to financial crisis.

The St Louis fed has a graph tool for the statistics you request about wages.

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Thanks for the helpful reply. I'll toss in an OT issue that really isn't OT.
Severing the 1% ability to donate money will enable the 99% to "own" our government again and get both done. The 1% are totally against raising the minimum wage or raising their taxes to pay for government spending. And we will be fighting the 1% until their fangs are removed.

[-] 2 points by Cocreator (306) 2 years ago

32 trillion hidden offshore will be the nail on the coffin of the vampire system.. the whole system is imploding, and a new one is coming out of the ashes.. Libor rate fixes,money laundering,bribery, extortion,obstruction of justice,genocide,fueled by insatiable greed..Greed Kills..and it is coming to eat the Elite..

[-] 2 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

The patient is on life support.Dr. Kildare will arrive shortly with the new wonder drug.Every thing is A ok .Please continue shoping.

[-] 1 points by MegaCorpBlows (7) 1 year ago

while we are only a person in the world to you, you mean the world to us, Bless you! http://igg.me/p/171832?a=874546

[-] 1 points by JackHall (402) 2 years ago

Here are some rain drops and a few hail stones.

Who else had suspicions when Reagan became president?

Too Big to Fail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVV6dzDOgQ0&list=PL265674BD76CA4398&feature=plpp_play_all [right click]

The grim story unfolding is that govrnments have been arranging deck chairs on th Titanic for a quarter of a century. This would have started before 1987. No one seemed to notice the boat was sinking.

Government isn't the problem. Corruption, deregulation, incompetence and fraud are the problem.

[-] 1 points by 71353933 (85) 2 years ago

Your still rambling my friend....

There is no inflation........just look at housing, historically the biggest souce of wealth.....look at interest rates as measured by the 10 year treasury note...its somewhere around 1.5%....whoopdedoo....the fed is doing everything in their power to keep the economy afloat...

but the headwinds are a lame Congress who won't legislate any real reform, and a government ( city, county, state, and federal whose benefits are far superior than the average 99% who are in the private sector ...

that includes all the public universities and their bourgeois professors who profess change but don't want to take less in benefits that might otherwise go to help students

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

yeah, sorry my tune don't jive with party line politics. This blame it on government is being used in different ways by both parties and it's a scapegoat. It's a distraction with no real answer or solution required except a buildup to election day. The job security of politicians isn't my concern. My concern is pounding the message everyday that political leaders and media mad-dogs are avoiding giving credit where credit is due. Society doesn't exist without the working class and capitalism doesn't work unless people make enough to have a sustained disposable income, let alone not dependent on welfare. Neither side wants to talk about this because they both would have to share the wealth with those that actually create it, and we can't have that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

inflation stop temp for politics


I will buy food while I'm able

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

It is all smoke and mirrors, a house of cards,. just waiting for a strong breeze to start the fail.

I would not 'invest' ANY of my time or energy in the stock/derivative markets 401k is a sad joke., it is like giving your money away,. the music stops and it will be gone. Invest in your family, friends, and community. Work on building connections with the suppliers of your food, water, and energy needs locally. The lie will eventually become apparent to all,. till then just get ready for a wild ride.

Those currently manipulating to hold power are just not as clever as they believe themselves to be,. this is due to the greed blinders they look through,.. They will lie right up till the very end,. well even after that,. the sad part is those that fall for the stupid greed they are selling,. just the promise that "you too could be rich like me" is such a pathetic line,. however it seem to work on a good half of the population, as greed is a strong tendency in human people,. avoid these ones and focus on the other half that are reasonable and tend toward the good.

Search; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

Good to read somebody is thinking on this blog.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 2 years ago

I think one thing this forum fails to do is really educate people. It also totally fails to pull people together and organize them. Don't give me any of this "strength in leaderless anarchy" crap-- it's an impediment to the simple function of allowing people a central location to organize and educate themselves. The whole notion of having no leaders works great if you don't want a group to accomplish anything. Why is the information on this board so pathologically disorganized? Why are there no sub-forums on various subject matter.

Ultimately, we have no choice but to get out there in the community and work at the grassroots level.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

I totally agree. I personally think this forum and much of the occupy movement is a diversion funded and organized by the power elite to keep people from seriously organizing. Ranting and carrying signs around in a park make for a fine party, but that alone will never change any politics. You're totally correct. If we are ever to overcome the situation we are in, or at least defend ourselves in it, we absolutely must organize and take real action in our communities independent of this particular occupy thing.

I use this forum mostly for entertainment and blowing off steam in the evening. It's fun, and much better than TV. I get a few ideas and other insights from this site, and I do hope I might bring forth a few ideas and educate a few individuals who also troll this site while I'm at it.

[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 2 years ago

Yeah, I try to avoid being critical, these things take time. Maybe that's what should happen though: an evolution in terms of what, practically speaking, this movement can bring to the world in terms of education and organization, maybe even a little wild eyed preparation.

However, I do think that it's human nature for people to follow others, and right now this human instinct is being somewhat thwarted by the overall non-structure structure. Certainly, there are some conspiracies afoot regarding this movement, but in this case, treat the sympton first and get organized, here and in the local community. Education and organization are our best weapons, and that's gotta be a major focus: when people come to OWS looking for information, it's gotta be organized and easy to find, or it's just a trip down the rabbit hole.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

It would be nice if OWS would get organized, but I believe truth is if you want organization , you'll have to look somewhere else.

Ever check out ANSWER coalition? They don't have a blog like this one, but they seem to have a little more organization.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 2 years ago

I'll check it out, I'm not particularly well-versed in various groups that are out there. However, I'm shopping for hope, so I'll check it out.

OWS needs an infusion of something that it maybe isn't ready for. However, evolution isn't usually something that anyone can control or really predict. To quote Willy Wonka: "The suspense is killing me... I hope it lasts... "

[-] 1 points by CSFSP (15) from Centennial, CO 2 years ago

Until they fix the problems there will be no recovery. This is for real and we're the only hope the world has. We must success in bringing these fuckers down.

[-] 0 points by bearclaw (-152) 2 years ago

The latter part of this year and 2013 is going to be devastating for the US and other Countries. The eye of the economic storm is creeping up on us

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I think the main reason we havent seen hyperinlfation yet is because Europe is doing a lot worse, which is keeping the dollar up. I don think the world trusts China enough to go there as a safe haven, but they are buying up gold by the boat load.

I personally think the shits gonna hit before the election.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

The Euro situation wouldn't effect our inflation but I also note that you are correct about China buying up a lot of gold. The purchasing of gold by China is more likely to do with preparations for a BRICS currency as a competitor to the dollar as an international currency.

[-] -3 points by Porkie (-255) 2 years ago

Unemployment here is up by one percent this quarter, layoffs loom ahead, foreclosures on the rise ... this is Democrat territory and has been for many years now.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

Repubs run congress. What is their solution? They just say no, no.

They are the reason we have 15 billion deficit....10 billion from the wars and the next 5 billion bailing out Wall Street Bankers and keeping the American system from going down the toilet. and the dems are responsible too for standing by and letting this happen to the country:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteQnUmCj9U Death of the Liberal Class: Chris Hedges Great reads too.

[-] 0 points by ponchovilla (16) 2 years ago

The biggest drivers of the "$15 billion" (actually TRILLION) debt are Social Insecurity, Mediscare, Medicaid, income security welfare programs and federal pensions. These entitlements suck and were implemented by FDR and LBJ. Democrats took all the credit on how wonderful their "safety nets" and "great society" were!

The wars were $1.3 Trillion. http://www.costofwar.com

The entitlements are $80+ Trillion. http://www.usdebtclock.org

For decades, we were told how Republicans were too "mean spirited" and didn't care about the people so they didn't create the entitlements. Now that the entitlements are BROKE, suddenly it's Republicans fault? I think not. Try again, you hack.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

Hey Hack Pancho You forgot to address the chart that Reagan, Bush and Bush f ...d the debt worse than any other party: http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

To Poncohvilla: Republican AND Democrat at Fault-Both Guilty of Non-leadership, finger pointing, and misdirection from real issues http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_election_march_of_the_trolls_20110829/

A trillion dollars in tax cuts to the rich has not stimulated the economy. (ten years) It doesn't trickle down. It goes into their off-shore lock box. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/08/investigating-mitt-romney-offshore-accounts

There are a lot more long-term hidden costs to the war that will be ongoing: 3-4 Trillion Dollars http://costsofwar.org/

Social Security: 2 Things: A It should be needs based, or those with income under $60.000. B. We need to increase lift the cap so those making over the limit pay in. For 2012, the maximum taxable earnings amount for Social Security (OASDI) taxes is $110,100 http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240/~/2012-social-security-tax-rate-and-maximum-taxable-earnings

Move to single payer health system http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what-is-single-payer http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_real_health_care_debate_20120409/


Without safety nets more would turn to the underground economy, as in the nation to the south.

Reform the tax code now, close corporate loopholes and offshore tax shelters, but lower their tax rates so they are similar to other nations. Personal taxes on upper incomes people ($400,000 a year) go up.

We should have a check box on our 1040s: Lefties taxes should predominantly go to towards their causes: infrastructure, health and humanities; righties will pay off our legacy debts of wars and any other societal contributions they champion.

In the real world Democrat Presidents historically have behaved in a way better record on handling the economy and deficit http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm I agree that in the long term the revenue/outlay gap needs to be reversed.

[-] 0 points by ponchovilla (16) 2 years ago

NO, it should not be based on need. That's not the bill of goods FDR sold us and collected through payroll deductions (involuntarily I might add via FICA). It's for everyone. You don't keep changing the terms of the bargain as your "social compact" becomes mathematically impossible. FDR NEVER stated the program would be a welfare program. Everyone who pays into it deserves to collect the share that was confiscated from them over their working lives. That's what your hero, FDR told the American people.

Screw single payer. Screw your little games to take from working people and give to the lazy. Democrat presidents have created long term misery through unsustainable bleeding-heart mathematics. Screw your safety nets as they collapse from your ideas to redistribute property.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

NO!!! "Screw the fat-ass lazzy corporate pigs health industry, who hold bankrupt parents hostage for the health of their children, or how about 900,000 dollars an hour lazy speculators or lobbyists, those who want to be bailed out with corporate socialism of the national treasury, and the courtisean class who support them.

Well, if you don't want to save Social Security by making it needs based on those who make under 60,000, and have a sliding scale after that, the Phase in reduction then, for those who are below 16 years currently, and earn less than $60,000 annually (adjusted for inflation at 65 years).

Social Security helped out my grandparents and my parents, and what else do I have to look forward to. I want to keep it, cause my retirement will be a bucket to pee in, at the plan I'm on.

Yea I like FDR: he saved captalism from the Nazis.

Grow Brain Mass: Watch: How Corporations Destroyed American Democracy - Chris Hedges ...


Evolve, it's God's natural law. Their is no laziness, but just work and progress, with effort and focus. Lazy psychotic-corporatist-scum shall do their share as well.

Panchovilla, You're the one who telling the 6 million homeless Americans, or 23 million who will still not have health care, to suck it up.

Apologies to all for an emphatic tone.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

The problem with social security et. al. is not that its broke, but rather quite the opposite. There is plenty of money reserved in these programs. The problem is the government is borrowing money from these funds, and so they only appear broke.

The real core problem causing our economic stiuation, is money (in the trillions) is being sucked out of this country to bankroll foreign wars. Money draining warmongering policies are being pursued by both Democrats and Republicans alike. As far as warmongering goes there is no difference between the policies of the Obama and those of Bush. I wonder why OWS is not getting on that?

[-] 1 points by gsw (2603) 2 years ago

Actually, the deficit is so large because so many are currently out of work,

see the graph "Health Care and Interest are the Crushers" http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ldebtclock.htm http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/gifs/galland-debt.gif The spike is due to unemployment currently at high levels, I believe.

Health Care will drive it up in the future, which is why we need a single payer health care, or some other way, to control costs for all people. (CBO presents to conservative Heritage Foundation http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/HeritagePresentation_Bilheimer.pdf)

This site disputes your debt clock numbers details, and the premise of your figures: but the total seems the same figure . http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

We need to get the economy going and pay off the debt.

It is really mute issue who ran it up: both sides need to get the economy going so it can get paid off.

I'm not an economist, so I have to consult others:

CBO does not disagree: http://cbo.gov/publication/43288

United States public debt From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

The problem with social security et. al. is not that its broke, but rather quite the opposite. There is plenty on money reserved in these programs. The problem is the government is borrowing money from these funds, and so they only appear broke.

The debt causing so much trouble here in the U.S.A. is primarily due to financing the foreign wars of the last twelve years. Basically, money is being sucked out of our country, and our economy cannot sustain it. The war economy we have today is quite different from any other war economy the U.S. experienced in the past. In the past our government borrowed from and spent on domestic sources. So the money circulated within the country. Today most monies are being borrowed and spent overseas. The money is quite literally being sucked out. This is the single major issue causing our economic problems. I only wonder why OWS is not getting on that, and rallying people to stop the outrageous wars?

By the way although I'm not an economist, (I'm an engineer) I do have a college major in economics.

[-] 0 points by ponchovilla (16) 2 years ago

No, the deficit is so large because the serial ponzi schemes of social insecurity, medicare, medicaid and federal pensions are now coming home to roost, just like Madoff's ponzi scheme did.

The MATH of entitlements is unsustainable. It's not a tax collection issue.

It's a future promises issue. You could take 100% of EVERYBODY'S earnings and not even get close to paying off the future liability.

Yes, you are not an economist, so stop trying.

GO HERE: http://www.usdebtclock.org

Look at the entries marked "U.S. Federal Tax Revenue". $2.3 Trillion

Now look at "U.S. Unfunded Liabilities" of $120 Trillion.

Do you propose we collect 52 TIMES the amount of taxes we collect today to pay that???

Do you now see how this isn't a tax problem???