Forum Post: The blame is everywhere except for you.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 11:56 a.m. EST by l31sh0p
(279)
from Sand Fork, WV
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Take personal responsibility. Aspire to be a 1%er, not despise them and plead for their money to be re-distributed. You don't have any RIGHTS to a nice house, healthcare, or expensive college education. Live within your means and stop crying 'income inequality'.
I don't have a right to affordable housing, affordable healthcare and affordable higher education. But I've lived long enough to see all these things. My house cost me $80,000. My health insurance at one time covered all hospital expenses since even groups within hospital settings were participating providers. My brother graduated from Cornell with $10,000 in affordable debt. Of course, we didn't celebrate the boarding up of manufacturing jobs to increase shareholder profits. I do agree with you that a nice house can be attained by buying a starter home and moving up to a larger home as your salary increases. Affordable health care and affordable higher education is a no brainer. Those high taxes and your silent support of shipping jobs oversees to see your stock portfolio edge up a few percentage points has contributed to affordable health care, affordable housing and affordable higher education disappearing. Take a bow.
the economy in the US is isolated
I am responsible for the wars my government committed
what retarded school teacher is out there teaching our children that our government has started Any war.
what a piece of shit these teachers are
Student Attacks Against Teachers: The Revolution of 1966* Youqin Wang
Paper presented at the conference, "The Cultural Revolution in Retrospect," Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, July 4-6, 1996; presented at the Association of Asian Studies annual meeting, Chicago, March 14-16, 1997; printed in a source book at Harvard University.
I. An Unreported Side of the Revolution: Topic and Background
Given the long-standing tradition of reverence for teachers and of respect for the institutions of education throughout Chinese history, the events of the summer of 1966 in which students tortured teachers in Chinese schools are unusual and can be considered a "revolution," if we define a revolution merely by the degree of departure from accepted custom. Eventually, these events played an important role in the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" that Mao Zedong launched and led from 1966 until he died in 1976.
http://www.cnd.org/cr/english/articles/violence.htm
'Those high taxes' was the only part of that incredibly drawn out post that I would be able to respond to... so what taxes? It seems like you're more into typing 'thought-provoking' nonsense than defending your side of the argument.
You open up with a weak point of view and a dribble of thought. There was affordable housing, health care and higher education. That's not nonsense. That's a fact. I was also lucky enough to raise a family on one middle class income. You bitch about income inequality as though its a 2011 problem. This generation overall does not have the same opportunities that were available to the middle class 30 years ago. You know this is true and yet you ramble about living within your means. So what's your goal? Wait for mom or dad to die to give you a little spending money?
I didn't bitch about income inequality, I am 25, put myself through college with less than 5k in student loans, and am now a licensed professional in my field of work.
Your assumptions and bewildering opinion of my point of view show that you're not willing to compromise, so arguing is moot. But you still haven't answered my question: 'what taxes'?
It's an ignorant comment. No, you are correct, but what we do have a right to is government of the people, by the people, for the people, and that no longer exists. This government only works for special interest and corporate America, and it's not wrong for us to demand it back. In fact it's our patriotic duty to take it back.
'It's an ignorant comment. No, you are correct, but'
Read that, stopped, determined your point of view is irrelevant.
Focus here for a second. You are absolutely correct, we don't have the right to have all those things you state, and the wealthy should not be made to redistribute their wealth. You are correct.
Where you are ignorant, is that that is not what this movement is all about. It's about how the 1%, which by the way does not just represent wealth, but the ruling elite, have used the considerable wealth to corrupt the political process, how they have taken it over and made it only work for them.
So you are correct, we shouldn't just get all those things, but the statement is ignorant because that's not what this thing is about.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Then why are you not occupying Washington?
Because I live in Florida, and I work, and I'm raising a family, and although I would love to have influence over this thing, and would like to move it in the right direction, that will never happen, because I'm only 1 person.
But, the cause is good, just a little bit misguided and very, very disorganized.
I loved working in Florida; no state income tax. That's why you all got Lebron James!
I didn't get anything. I'm originally from NY and I'm a Knicks fan.
But yes, it is a very nice state to live in.
Here's the catch: every time we have one of these recessions our standard of living adjusts downward. During a recession, layoffs mean that you have an incredible surfeit of people who are fully qualified if not overqualified for most positions, but who are so desperate for a job that they'll take 30-40% pay cuts just to hold on. Some businesses will in fact lay off employees they need so that they can get someone else to take the job at half the wage rate or less. This then ratchets up the rat race a notch each time, as the same jobs now require more qualifications, work experience, degrees, etc. and pay less than they did before. Unlike employment rates, however, the new employment standards and pay schedules do not cycle back to pre-recession levels when the economy starts growing again.
That roof-tarring job your father picked up during college to make ends meet? He'd have no chance of getting it today because he's a US citizen and thus a) he has to be paid at least the federal minimum wage and most likely will make more because he's a skilled tradesmen and b) citizens have avenues for seeking redress in cases of worker abuse. Illegals don't. The same goes for most minimum wage jobs out there that he'd have the "qualifications" to get. If you tried to get one of those "zero-education" jobs right now they'd look you in the eye and refuse you for being overqualified; I actually had a friend looking for part-time jobs at clothing stores/fast food joints/etc. in her neighborhood (zero-education jobs all, because she's still only 18) and getting turned down. Why? She went to Bronx Science and only wants to work so she can provide her own spending money and help her parents cover her tuition.
What does this have to do with Wall Street? This last round of utterly asinine speculation and outright securities fraud triggered a really nasty recession, and when it ends employment rates will probably come back up to pre-recession levels, but wages for 90+ percent of the population won't unless we begin changing how large corporations do business. I'd much prefer such change came from a political movement that demanded re-regulation of Wall Street, campaign finance/lobbying reform, and bona fide attempts to bring jobs back to America than from a protest movement as disorganized as OWS. That said, I've never been one to overlook possible vehicles for opportunity no matter how unlikely they appeared, and just because OWS is scruffy and disorganized doesn't mean they can't be useful.
In short, OWS and its affiliate movements will be happy to stop stinking up your parks and get jobs when the downward spiral stops. They'll go away when they can be confident that the goalposts are no longer being moved at a faster rate than most can keep up with and social safety nets and unions are strengthened enough to make a middle-class life possible for the ordinary man. We will live within our means when our means aren't continuously shrinking and we'll work harder when doing so isn't merely treading water to try to stay afloat. Until then, they will stay exactly where they are and grow stronger and stronger until the system has no choice but to make these opportunities available to them again. And I will stand with them.
That's a failure if I ever saw one. OWS will be happy to stop the movement once the economy picks back up? I believe this is true, and this is the reason why nothing has been done up to now and why OWS will probably be ineffectual. The problem goes deeper than recessionary cycles that erode the standard of living. There is a small group that acts in secrecy to control our monetary supply and the levers of government. So long as they remain in control we will never have freedom.
No, it's not a failure, because I'm not just referring to the effects of the recession. Every time we have a recession everyone loses something that we don't get back when things pick back up. We'll disband only when this country puts through a comprehensive reform package that not only cleans up this current mess but changing the way corporations do business so that our middle class comes out of these recessions stronger rather than weaker. Part of that process will probably include allowing the Fed to act as a consumer lending institution in times like these, and probably also either drastically reforming it or placing it under the Treasury Department. Another part of that process is doing what we must to bring jobs back over here so that outsourcing and wage-cutting aren't profitable anymore. Getting anything done is going to rely on cleaning up campaign finance and eliminating lobbying, this disentangling the corporate world from our government. I'd say that pretty much addresses the problem with people who have their hands in our money supply and in government.
I disagree. I put the blame squarely on YOU.
I'm tired of responding to vicious reactionaries with civility and logic.
DIE FASCIST.
What do you think about OWS? Please take a quick survey (< 2 minutes!) on your smartphone or the web. It's easy, with Survey On The Spot just click here: http://bit.ly/owssurvey
OK, so based on being responsible, the US has bills. They need to be paid. The responsible thing is to pay them. We are all Americans but the 47% who don't pay income taxes couldn't pay those bills even if they wanted to.
So is it responsible to not pay those debts because you don't want to live in your means (IE with a government that pays it's bills?)
The government needs to stop spending.
what do you think? some rational social studies classes in school may help?
"look kids, this is what it's like, this is what you can expect, it's Not easy by far but is possible."
rather than music video after music video of how easy it is to get Bling and booze and limos.
that 1st 8 hours on a minimum wage job is truly a major let down.
maybe we can help by starting earlier in schools with a REAL reality show.
I agree, it all boils down to personal greed.
We don't want to be rich. Those are bad people. We need a huge middle class like they have in social democracies like Norway.
rich=bad? How so?
Rich means asshole.
I see,so as far as you're concerned a group of people you have never met are assholes because they are rich. Sounds rather envious to me.
Your predisposition invalidates your argument.
Read the Rolling Stone article on Rick Perry by Matt Taibbi.
The one percent is a small club. Just like winning the lottery. With all your determination and hard work that you suggest, what % could actually be in the 1% without more equilibrium. You are just missing the point about the wealth divide and until your job or industry gets outsourced, you will still be posting in this frame of mind. You should really not ASSUME that everyone on these posts are poor and pleading for money. I am in fact fairly well off and love capitalism and the inspiration that supports a "shoot for the stars" mindset. But when you step out of the picture, view history and think morally, a 1% only control will never work. Never has and never will. I am older than most of the posters and can say that we are in a steady decline. Be careful of what you want...you just might get it. You are actually siding against your own interest.
Why do you think that working in the US is better than working in another country? My profession can go anywhere in the world and be profitable, and with the decline in the economy here It's very possible that I could make a better living in another country.
Voluntary outsourcing; I don't want to live in this country with you anymore.
I don't think working in the US is necessarily better. Canada's health care system is looking better everyday but this is OUR country. I won't bail out on it and so won't the fellow OWS protestors.
So why do I see people burning the American flag during protests...using it as a dog chew toy?
You will use whatever edge you can to defend your argument, but you mean none of it.
What people said used to mean something.
They burn the flag to show they do not support the system as it is. They are willing to fight for their country not the empire that it has evolved into. I do mean all of it. I have felt this way for much longer than this movement and will support these kids. What people used to say did mean something and we need to get back to that. What our government tells us now doesn't mean anything to the 99% as they only serve their special interests.
We take personal responsibility by protesting and we do have those rights.
Uh ... yes. Hello? I did not cause the sub-prime crisis. I did not cause the recession. The blame for that does not in fact fall on me. If I point this out, this is not an evasion of "personal responsibility", this is a simple matter of fact, like pointing out that I am not to blame for World War II. I am, as a cold matter of fact, not to blame.
As for your fatuous lies about what I think, I am also not to blame for the lies that you made up in your head. I am responsible for what I do and think, not for what you choose to daydream about what I do and think. That's down to you.
Fractional reserve lending is a crime, and that assessment is not based upon a subjective opinion, it is determined objectively; fractional reserve lending is counterfeit - fraud - theft.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-objective-1-fractional-reserve-lending-is-a-cr/
Thus, your assertions are only partially correct.
Thus it is true that income inequality is not injustice and all are to take responsibility for themselves, however fractional reserve lending is an injustice and it is an intrinsic affront to the precepts of equal opportunity.
you wish. just because most people have low self worth and want, or need, to be excepted in the eyes of their peers does not mean I do. Work is a necessity but I will never compromise my sanity, conscience and family for extra dollars. I've read too many books about industrial leaders who get to the end of their life and say, wow why did I do It. I believe those that said the only way to fix it is from the inside, back in the '70s, compromised their integrity and now that is why they are so bitter now. Nice try. but next. Besides, if we were all millionaires a million dollars would be worth nothing. that is the sad little secret about our current dilemma.
We also have a right to a government who is not bought and paid for. We have a right to a government who represents us not just the corporations!
I agree with you
Are you crazy? We live on a finite planet. 7 billion people can't all be blood sucking parasites. The planet can't even support the 1%. We have every right that the 1% steals from us. People, we don't have time for ignorant trolls that want to enslave us. We make the world go around. They just run around in it.
If you care about your future, read about "the nuclear option". It's time to drop the bomb.
And for my troll of friend,
Don't be Afraid!
The Revolution has started - Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
Enslave? Nuclear option? Revolution?
Haha.
I vote with my name
And the CEO has a "right" to plunder the wealth of his shareholders? Doe he also have a "right" to earn over 300 times the avg. salary of his workers? Does the elected representative have a "right" to accept hundreds of millions in campaign contributions only to turn around and sell their influence to the highest bidder? Does he also have a "right" to parlay his elected position into a lobbyist's position after public service?
I agree with you that campaign contributions are ridiculous, but I disagree with you with personal income. CEO's don't get handed the job, it's often a career-long venture.
Sorry...the banks didn't live within their means back in '08, and as any good capitalist would tell you, they should have been allowed to collapse. But they weren't, were they? Why is that? I agree that people should live within their means, but when corporations are not only not punished but actually rewarded for not living within their means, what do you expect people to do? Corporations can't have things both ways--or, if you think they can, so can individuals....
This is why I think you will find most conservatives feel they should have been allowed to fail. By rewarding bad behavior you merely promote it. We have bankruptcy laws to handle failing businesses.
I agree that the bailouts were a bad idea.
You are right there is plenty of blame to go around with what this country is doing to itself. We are making a third world out of OUR country because if one can only expand their mind that houses, health care, and college are only the surface of what deeper problems our country is faced with.
I agree to an extent. Where I side with the OWS movement is in the need to create an equal playing field. To get government out of business and money out of government so that onerous regulations aren't bought and paid for by big business to squash competition.
If you will explain to me how I am responsible for the sub-prime crisis and the ensuing economic collapse, I shall adopt a suitable air of shame.
If, on the other hand, you are a halfwit screaming childish nonsense on the internet, then contempt would be a more appropriate response.
So, your call.
How does the sub-prime crisis affect you? Once we figure that out, I will help you get through this.
It has caused a massive global recession. This has made getting money harder than it used to be.
Your solution is ... ?
'made getting money harder than it used to be'
This mentality is what is wrong with everything #occupy stands for.
This reeks of propaganda. OWS isn't asking for handouts, just a fair chance in a rigged system.
GetAJobYouBums, do you deny that there are people who have lost their jobs due to downsizing through no fault of their own and cannot find a job in the current economy?
If you agree, then society needs to help these people.
If you disagree, are you prepared to hire some of these people?
the blame is definitely with "you" - decades of pretending we were helping people while bombing peaceful nations that have nothing to do with us and taking their resources by force, oppressing them into cheap labor so we could stuff our garages with junk.
now WE are the victims, we are a nation of drug addicts and fat people, we are a nation that can barely read, we are a nation of fantasy and make-believe. America bred ignorance, and now they wonder why all the jobs left for countries where more intelligent people are working for less? Why would American companies use our resources to bring jobs to the Chinese or Indians, lol - look at yourselves, what can you even do? would you hire you?? hahahahaha
poor American, lol
Personal attack with nothing useful, haven't seen that on these boards recently.
Your entire original post was a broad-based personal attack.
Really? Sounded like good advice to me.
I never attacked anyone. If you THINK it was an attack, than it obviously hit a nerve and rings true in your life.
Certainly does not ring true and an obvious attack, albeit meaningless, lame, and wholly unoriginal. You are just repeating exactly what hundreds have come here to say for weeks. I bet you're one boring fuck.
It's just what I believe and you're raging hard on me. Let the anger out.
No rage, no anger, just trying to help you understand how duped you are.
you are free to give us something useful.... go ahead
Have personal responsibility, live within your means, work harder, stop complaining. There's 4.
those are good, my turn
do onto others as you would have done onto you. -- our turn to be oppressed by capitalism so those in other nations can have more products for less.
don't lie or steal -- our turn to get bombed and have foreign armys occupy our streets, take our resources and tell us how to live.
now the fun part --- Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
more please
remove military occupation from... everywhere
reduce the size of the federal government.
Reduce some environmental regulations... global warming is a myth. We have put impervious black asphalt on 1% of the Earth's surface. thinking in that perspective could possibly change your mind about global warming. this will allow for more jobs in the end.
oh, and if you believe in religion, research why there is a version of the bible named 'King James'
more, more!
4 more: Lube up. Bend over. Turn on Fox News. Drool.
You're an angry one.
No, I just have no respect for you.
we have a system that we follow not 2 become rich but to make a living. When that system got bought by the corporate monopolies, the system started fucking the average person more and more. 30yrs of stagnat wages rising inflaton have a toll on the people that rely on the system to create a fair market place for them to make a living.
What do you do for a living?
I'm a Land Surveyor, what do you do?
Why would you come to this forum to deliberately misrepresent what the movement is about? Do you realize you are simply spewing right wing propaganda? I believe you are feigning ignorance out of hate or fear. You really support the gluttons and money hoarders?
I enjoy that you already have presumptions about me just because I have a differing opinion than you. You think I am here to try and de-rail this 'movement', and all that I spew is propaganda.
Everyone is wrong but you, blame everyone but yourself.
Your entire post is making presumptions about people you don't know, you ludicrous hypocrite. You frame it as me blaming someone else. I believe in right and wrong, fair and unfair. You support selfishness and greed. You support the corporations moving all of the jobs and money overseas. They've exported our prosperity and middle class to China. You support this because you hate young people with piercings who get laid.
But OWS whole premise is based on "presumptions about people you don't know you ludicrous hypocrite"
Presumption does not equal opinion. Personal attacks arise when someone has nothing else useful to add to a conversation. You THINK it's greed, when it is really the fruits of the companies labor. Jobs are overseas because companies like to make MONEY HOLY SHIT WHAT AN EPIPHANY.
Keep on bending over, they love fucking your stupid ass.
More personal attacks, do you not have anything useful to say?
Your entire original post was a broad-based personal attack.
It's George Busch's fault. He was the one that gave big oil, big banks and big business the green light to rip us off. We need to shut down big oil, big banks and big corporations. The government will provide for us. A very smart man onec said " from each by his ability, to each by his need" words to live by.
The blame isn't everywhere, the blame is on Wall Street which used billions in taxpayer money to enrich itself and reward its top executives - that's why it's called Occupy Wall Street - it's not rocket science
Should be occupying Fannie May and Freddie Mac.
Goldman Sachs, which received more subsidies and bailout-related funds than any other investment bank because the Federal Reserve permitted it to become a bank holding company under its “emergency situation,” has used billions in taxpayer money to enrich itself and reward its top executives. It handed its senior employees a staggering $18 billion in 2009, $16 billion in 2010 and $10 billion in 2011 in mega-bonuses. This massive transfer of wealth upwards by the Bush and Obama administrations, now estimated at $13 trillion to $14 trillion, went into the pockets of those who carried out fraud and criminal activity rather than the victims who lost their jobs, their savings and often their homes.
I agree the bailouts were a bad idea; but it was not the sole reason for our problems. Personal greed is what fuels our problems.
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Let's take control and win. The only way is to tale the responsibility of closing your bank account.
100% Agreed, Unfortunetly we are living in a generation of lazy people who belive they are entitled. I get up every day and go to work, this is something I have been doing since I was 14 years old. I am currently on my way to becomeing the 1% I strive to be. Hard work pays off rether than complain stop wasting valueble time and go get a job. Wait I forgot you are to good to go work for a living you just want it handed to you.
What do you do for a living? I am dying to hear this answer.
Who would hire you? Your spelling is abysmal.
100% Agreed, Unfortunetly we are living in a generation of lazy people who belive they are entitled. I get up every day and go to work, this is something I have been doing since I was 14 years old. I am currently on my way to becomeing the 1% I strive to be. Hard work pays off rether than complain stop wasting valueble time and go get a job. Wait I forgot you are to good to go work for a living you just want it handed to you.
What's your job?
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