Forum Post: tear down Confederate monuments
Posted 12 years ago on April 5, 2012, 11:22 a.m. EST by AlaneBrooks
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
a statue of Rommel is wrong for Europe, but a statue of Stonewall Jackson is okay for the South?
hhmm so like the ancients... destroy all evidence of a segment of history so that 1000 years from now.. when this aspect of ancient society is an interesting study. there will be no trace left due to ignorant idea that if you destroy all physical traces then it didnt happen in the present day. what is your i.q.
I don't think we need statutes to remember things?
to prove things actually existed. if not for physical proof ,, how would you know about the fall of rome? the city of pompie,, the under ground army of Xian, China, just a legend until it was found. just a story. these things are history.. we have no right to destroy the legacy of mankind for the future civilizations over some ignorance of today
Well, put it this way dude, before I saw this post, I never gave the statute of Stonewall Jackson a second thought, and I still really don't care that much. I mean, if people want to keep it standing, they can have at it as far as I'm concerned (we certainly have bigger fish to fry in this world than the statute of old Stonewall).
But still, we don't need statutes to remember things (or if we do, we can always move them to a museum where they might be less offensive to people, although I'm not saying the statute of Stonewall is offensive to anyone ... I really have no way of knowing that).
People have a right to their own history. We shouldn't be trying to repress that. What is the point in trying to deny it. I mean if they want a statue of Hiller in Germany, or one of Stalin in Russia, they should be able to have it. It does no good to try to repress people this way. The lingering resentments of Southerners won't go away just because you try to take down a statue, in fact it would probably be the reverse. What we need is a meeting of the minds, to the greatest degree that that is obtainable, so we can go forward.
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The Democratic party was the seat of slavery for decades. Lets wipe the Democratic Party from the earth.
Can we wipe all parties from the face of the earth (equal opportunity destruction) :)
So should we destroy the pyramids? Who needs these large building that was made to support one person in a after life. Wither we agree or disagree with what the monuments means I do not agree that we should destroy them. They are markers of history that if we teach people correctly will either point to the greatness or the evils we humans can do. We have to much proof in history that in order to "protect people" a Government will try to destroy monuments and burn or ban books.
Not one of those issues I've ever spent any great amount of time thinking about, but I'm inclined to agree with you, I mean, why stir a hornets nest by trying to rip down some old statute? As far as I can tell not even African Americans are offended by the thing, so I'm not either? I'm more interested in a better world (and I don't think statutes, whether they remain standing or not, really plays into the well being of humans in any significant way). If, however, people decided to try and recreate Florence in America, and waste tons of money on erecting statutes everywhere, then I suppose statutes might become a relevant issue in our existence. Until then (and probably even then) I won't give a shit :)
Have you been to DC? It is nothing but statutes. They are symbolic to mean something. We go to DC NOT because it is the CAPITAL of the USA but because of the statutes and other symbolic sites. We humans build them because we know we live a short time but a statute can last a very very long time and say we lived and this is who we where.
Sure, but that's DC ... but anyway, like I said, I don't care about statutes. If people like them, they should keep them. Are they necessary to sustain history? I mean, probably not, although it is true that it helps us understand the history of antiquity (but historians don't need a Thomas Jefferson statute to understand American history, because unlike ancient history, it's well documented by multiple good sources). The golden prize in history is substantiating evidence, which you don't always get from statutes (because the fact is statutes usually reflect things from the point of view of either the person who sculpted it, or the person, group, or society who commissioned it, which is not always an accurate depiction of history). But this is just an academic statement, my personal view once again, if people like statutes, unless there's some major controversy over the thing, then why would we be inclined to try and tear it down?
i would think that is the accurate depiction of history.. how can it get anymore accurate than to be a depiction of the peoples view that created it. and i agree , why worry about it except to preserve it for future civilizations
Because there are always a few very loud people that demand that no one ever even see it?
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Have you ever looked closely at the Lincoln Memorial?
The chair in which he sits has it's arm rests supported by bundled rods.
Most people do not know the meaning of that symbolism or how commonly it is waved in the faces of anyone observing DC.
Fasces_-----are a bundle of wooden sticks with an axe blade emerging from the center, which is an image that traditionally symbolizes summary power and jurisdiction, and/or "strength through unity"
is that incorrect?
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Pretty much, fascism has been, and is, everywhere in DC's plan.
It matters not if D's or R's are on power, the agenda continues to be served.
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The statues mean nothing.
It's just the image of a man.
It's the plaque beneath them.
I think you're right about this, but it hurts to say so, I wish it had not come to this and we might have come to a better place by now.
The repeated third person, plural reference of "the South" with derision is a manifestation of geographical bigotry, even if unintentional. Would you include Morris Dees, Harper Lee, Flannery O'Connor and Erskine Caldwell in your wrath? Also, am I to believe that that the destruction of a few largely-ignored statues more useful to pigeons than anything else is worth the risk of alienating an entire region? One Civil War should be enough. Don't allow capitalism to repeat history. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery but more to the point, it was about vulgar profits for a few at the expense of many, an afflication unto this day. Stay focused, lest your motives will be questioned.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hi Alan. I'm with Occupy Raleigh. The state capitol, site of our original occupation, has numerous semi-offensive confederate era monuments. Last week we lit a gazillion little candles for Trayvon and placed them all around one of these monuments (actually a racist post war pol responsible in part for the Wilmington race riots.) I agree that Occupy hasn't done near enough to connect with minorities and especially with the Civil Rights era victories. But those monuments are dinosaurs, not worth making an issue out of. Sometimes I feel like our group is something out of the past where you read about poor whites unable to grasp the importance of the race issue. I wish you would come to Occupy Raleigh's forum and post your views. Our group is way too self involved, unaware of outside currents. Please.. Tell them jo invited you.
Here is a link to a protest song I wrote and the video I posted on youtube. If the link doesn't work when you click on it, copy and paste it into your address bar. Please send it to others on your contact list. Thanks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQ1WOC9RgY
Since some people still seem to be following this thread, I thought I might explain why people in the South, at least white people in the South, like these statues. In the North, people rarely identify with the state or region where they live. People in western Pennsylvania like the Steelers, and people in eastern PA like the Eagles, but both could give a shit less about the Keystone State. In the South, state and regional identification is much stronger, and those statues of Confederate soldiers are images of men who defended their land against an invading army that was much larger and better equipped. And they did it quite skillfully! Martial prowess is still a big deal down yonder, which is why our military is proportionally over represented by Southerners. There aren't statues of secessionist political leaders or slave dealers. They are all of soldiers. And a Confederate is a REBEL, and there is just something Americans like about the whole rebel idea.
Actually there IS a monument to Rommel in Germany at the spot where he committed suicide. They named a destroyer after him too. None of the Confederate statues in the US were built with federal money, including the many of them of them on the Gettysburg battlefield. Richmond has a whole street of them; Monument Avenue. It's a huge tourist attraction. Nothing is stopping anyone from petitioning city or state governments to remove the hundreds of such monuments from public property, it's just that no one really gives a crap about them except for the people that like them. If the goal is to merely piss these people off and serve no other worthwhile purpose whatsoever, have at it. There are worse things you could waste your time on.
The south loves there losers.
Yeah, let's promote the Red State - Blue State divide, rather than coming together in common cause. The Civil War has been over a long time. We live in different times, and with a different threat to The Union. I don't see this as Red State vs. Blue State, I see it a 99.9% against 0.01%.
I don't even see it necessarily in terms of a quantified percentage of the population versus another segment of the population. I think we just identify and challenge power structures (and of course corruption is one of the more obscene manifestations of power, and accumulation of private power can threaten a people just as much as concentration of government power, particularly when the two have teamed up against us).
Agreed, well said.
Well said.
For all of the southern liars who claim the Civil War was not about slavery -
they should read the "confederate declaration of independence" -
thier first formal declaration-
South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Secession
It mentions states rights twice and slavery 12 times
Very good point bensdad. It just shows how many can turn their backs on the evident truth when it's colored by their strong racist emotions. Hopefully time will wash away this ignorance and stupidity along with their monuments glorifying these horrors.
The Puzzler
i dont see your point.. the facts about the civil war has what to do with preserving history?
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Can anyone tell me of a segment of any society
anywhere in the world
that celebrates the
JOYOUS GLORY OF A MILITARY DEFEAT
that killed over half a million people ????
I find it sick that the "south" glorifies this traitorous disaster
while the "north" is trying to get the "south" to move
into the 21st century
How many "east" Germans celebrate the good old days ?
How many North Koreans celebrate the good old days ?
ginghas khan, alexander the great, marie antoinette,, pharoahs, aztecs, mongols, lets seee.. napoleon, american calvary(native americans), these cause you no upset?? you are not screaming about those? they all killed many many , enslaved, committed injustices. why dont you take care of destroying all that history first.
not to go one by one, but are there French people who joyously celebrate dictator Napoleon's defeats that cost thousands of lives? Do the Egyptians celebrate the Pharoahs losing the "war" with Moses.
Do we Americans celebrate the slaughter of Native Americans?
Do Native Americans celebrate their lost battles ?
[ they probably do celebrate LBH ]
I am not against historical figures, but I am very lerry about USING STATUES to celebrate what they did.
I would be all in favor of putting a sign on every confederate general's statue with the word "traitor" on it and the number of Americans that he led to their deaths and the number of Americans his troops killed
Where are the statues of Benedict Arnold? Where are the statues of Petain? Mousolini? Goebbels?
yes.. i think there is a painting of napoleon in the louve ... they have never destryoyed the pyramids, matter of fact.. they jail people who try to take those loathsome reminders of the pharoahs out of the country they love them so much., yess have you never heard of custer? big big history story about when the calvary was hell bent on the massacre of native americans,, calvery being the heroes, im sure there are statues or something commemorating the calvary. as far as 'objects ' being used o cement the confederate lemmings - against modernity - is what MUST GO. that is ridiculous. that exactly why you cant destroy them.. this is just one phase in civilization,, you dont destroy it , you preserve it.. in a thousand years it will all pass away.. no need to eliminate all traces just to try to manipulate human nature in one particular direction. these objects mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. they are only markers of history. if you want to destroy something that cements the confederate lemmings you need to destroy walmart. its basic business philosophy is that of the confederates. Walmart founder Sam Walton once said, "I pay low wages. I can take advantage of that. We're going to be successful, but the basis is a very low-wage, low-benefit model of employment."[45] just like the old slave owners!
gestopomillyy, There are multiple paintings of Napoleon in the Louvre and elsewhere, mostly by David who was a secret policeman for the Terror during the French Revolution who probably sent 100s of mostly innocent people to the guillotine. Incredible painter though! Interestingly, the only US soldier not scalped at the battle of the Little Big Horn was Custer. Why? Because he was a bad motherfucker who could fight He stacked slave owning secessionists like cord wood during the Civil War. Kicking ass was the most admired quality that the Plains Indian culture could see in any MAN, They were Braves after all. War was the number one activity that determined who was who in their society. They just lived in the same place that a bunch of white people did, and ultimately the white people just wanted to make money. The most money determined who was who in their society, not who had counted the most coup. Your comment about "Confederate Lemmings" cracks me up. It must be because these folk go along with all that Confederate programming on cable, and movies, and music, and other mass media. What does that all amount too? The Dukes of Hazard? A Rebel is a Rebel baby. Wal Mart will last as long as Montgomery Wards, and 5 and Ten. Not as long as those Rebel soldier statues. The philosophy of the Confederacy was as follows: To the Federal Government of the United States of America 1) Fuck You. We are not going to do anything that you want us to. 2) If you send anyone down here to MAKE us do stuff, we will kill them. Hardly the Philosophy of Wal Mart
"I pay low wages. I can take advantage of that. We're going to be successful, but the basis is a very low-wage, low-benefit model of employment."
that is what the confederacy was fighting for,. a way of doing business. they had no beef with the government until the government told them they had to up the labor cost. they knew.. as did sam that if they had to put more money into labor cost,, they would lose lots a money. of course the labor was free besides room and board. a little more than what walmart pays.
I am very much in favor of history - the old southern "glory" which is still used to cement the confederate lemmings - against modernity - is what MUST GO
the confederate flags and statues - representing the greatest mob of traitors in American history - are not symbols of a great history they are tools used to separate America today from reality and modernity
Where is the historical statue of Benedict Arnold?
Bensdad, Actually a lot of older (most were probably Stasi informants) East Germans DO miss the old days. The North Koreans have no good old days to miss because their communist government obliterated every vestige of it. To merely speak of the past in NK is to commit suicide.
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The stars and bars should have faded away decades ago.
The south has never admitted they lost.
You must be a black racist based on your outrageous opinions on this subject. Have you ever even been to "the south"?
Never mind, of course you are right, all Southerners are sorry mother fuckers and scum bag racist pieces of shit.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a Republican too.
You are a very polarizing and devisive person and I hope one day you learn the people do not all hold your narrow positions or opinions.
Assumptions and presumptions from a pretender?
Lame attempts at insult?
The stars and bars should have faded away years ago, along with their beliefs in confederatism.
Most of those States wouldn't have survived without monetary help from the heavily unionized States in the first place.
All I can tell you is.......STOP pretending.
How about you go eat a steaming cold plate of goat copulation, you clueless baboon?
Sorry, I don't live where you do, and we don't do those kind of things as readily as you.
But if you want too? Go "right" ahead........Enjoy.......:)
Road kill possum copulation smeg will suffice although far too good for racist primates.
The more you know.........
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All the problems facing the world today and THIS is what you focus on?
Agreed.
Why would you want to tear down a statue of Stonewall Jackson?
So tell me - what gives anyone the right to dictate to an individual what they should or should not believe in regardless of what it is?
Dictate? No that is not right - never - that is like forcing someone into rehab - it just will not work.
To reach out and try to reason and educate? That is caring. Which may also not work if the message or material is counter to belief. Least ways until that person has an experience which may allow them to consider openly.
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Division troll.
And don't forget Albert Pike, 33rd degree mason, confederate general and evil genius:
http://www.thebigstinkguide.com/archives/apike.htm
He has a statue in Washington DC:
http://dcpages.com/gallery/Albert_Pike_Statue_Washington_DC/
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tear down Confederate monuments and end Selective Service
In other words, provoke The South, and then make sure they join the army?
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This is a great idea!!! Smash Stonewall Jacksons statue into dust and sign it, "OWS purification."
That will unite America against the common enemy.