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Forum Post: Switzerland Proves That High Gun-Ownership Doesn't Increase Gun Crime

Posted 5 years ago on Dec. 16, 2012, 7:12 p.m. EST by Toby99 (22)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"The UN Study omits Switzerland from its comparative analysis. The Swiss example contradicts the Study's hypothesis that a high incidence of firearm ownership correlates with high violent crime."

"The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."


Why Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World: "The Key To Freedom Is The Ability To Defend Yourself"


"Instead of a standing, full-time army, the country requires every man to undergo some form of military training for a few days or weeks a year throughout most of their lives.

Between the ages of 21 and 32 men serve as frontline troops. They are given an M-57 assault rifle and 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at home.

Once discharged, men serve in the Swiss equivalent of the US National Guard, but still have to train occasionally and are given bolt rifles. Women do not have to own firearms, but are encouraged to."

But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.




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[-] 2 points by LeoYo (5909) 5 years ago

No, Switzerland and even places like Saddam ruled Iraq prove that high firearm ownership has little consequence in cultures of different orientations.

Until US society becomes a fundamentally different society, its current state combined with the easy access to firearms is going to continually result in tragedy.

[-] 2 points by ARod1993 (2420) 5 years ago

I had a friend bring this up to me, and I'd like to reiterate what I told him: Switzerland is a very special case. They're a tiny country with 2.5 percent of our population, nearly twice our median per capita income (about 2.5 times as much if you count before-tax income), a booming manufacturing industry, an amazing social safety net, universal milita service, very harsh immigration laws, and an education system ranked fourth in the world by the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report. There are lessons to be learned from how Switzerland does things, but to boil those lessons down to "Give everyone guns" would be a serious mistake.

Basically, if we want the US to be more like Switzerland we'd have to overhaul our current social and economic policies to put us on track to creating a society like theirs:

-Replace Obamacare with actual single-payer healthcare, accomplished by directly pouring funding and support into municipal hospitals and clinics and allowing private medical facilities to continue treating patients, with the bill sent to Uncle Sam rather than people in need; tied to this would be automatic student loan forgiveness and public funding of education for doctors and healthcare professionals.

-Embark on a massive overhaul of our nation's roads, bridges, aqueducts, power grid, rail infrastructure, etc. and pay for it with deficit spending. There would be no subcontracting of actual work out to private entities; rather, the actual works would be managed by a reborn CCC and WPA. As part of this, set up a system where steel plants and other manufacturing facilities that have gone defunct receive start-up funds and first preference for overhaul-related contracts as long as they are owned and operated by their (new) employees and can pass a basic safety and efficiency evaluation.

-Re-implement Glass-Steagall, break up most of the biggest banks, and begin the process of re-regulating the financial sector.

-Pass an Americanized version of the Mitbestimmungsgesetz (a German law that requires just under half of the managing board of any firm employing over 500 people to be democratically elected by the employees) with the threshold reduced to 250 employees.

-Replace the Fed with a Credit Union of the United States of America (with membership conferred on citizenship) responsible for monetary policy in much the same way as the Fed, but with the authority to act as a lender to ordinary citizens, small businesses, cooperative institutions, and local governments.

-Return to a moderate degree of protectionism as necessary to safeguard newly created American manufacturing jobs.

-Pass an alternative minimum tax for corporations over a certain size (but not for cooperatives)

-Take a pretty large chunk out of our military budget and put that money toward education, healthcare, and social welfare.

-Federally recognize marriage as a binding social contract between any two individuals regardless of anatomical sex and/or gender

-Federally recognize a blanket right to privacy that would cover (among other things) legal protection of any sexual act in which all parties are of legal age and have given consent.

-Dismantle the DHS and the TSA; turn protection of our nation's transportation hubs over to state troopers and militiamen and add some legal protections restricting the degree of invasiveness in screenings of travelers.

-Put an end to the War on Drugs. Instead, arrange things such that alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and certain other drugs (MDMA, modafinil, and hallucinogens) may be purchased for oneself and consumed from the age of 18 onward. Harder drugs (amphetamines, cocaine, opiates, etc.) would be technically legal to possess and consume but are not to be purchased.

-Allow alcohol, tobacco, and soft drugs to be produced by licensed manufacturers (pretty much all cooperatives and generally prevented from advertising on TV or advertising to children) whose licenses include payroll and production caps and who are not allowed to buy or be bought by firms operating in other industries (especially big pharma). Allow for medical marijuana to be prescribed in certain special cases to those under 18, but even then to be obtained from a licensed dispensary rather than a pharmacy.

-Continue to regulate hard stuff strictly; outright prohibit sale, and only legalize transport, manufacture, and dispensation when conducted by licensed entities (licenses would typically be restricted to rehabilitative and detoxification clinics that are run either by the government or by nonprofits and charities).

-Put an end to warrantless wiretapping, repeal the Patriot Act, and require a good deal more accountability when it comes to impinging on the privacy of American citizens.

-Enshrine net neutrality in the laws, but otherwise require that the Internet be left the hell alone; go after child porn, snuff films, etc. not by criminalizing their existence and then authorizing censorship in the name of stamping them out but by designating them as evidence of a crime and charging those caught with it with obstruction of justice unless they help the police bring down the originator of the material.

-Replace current firearm restrictions with a simplified, relaxed code based on my proposal at https://www.unitedstatesmilitia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10062 under the name AdamR1993

-Require comparable legal due process for any American citizen abroad who is being targeted by the CIA/NSA/US military/etc. as would be provided for a citizen on American soil (warrants before wiretapping/search/apprehension, even if the information is not necessarily accessible to the general public, and a full trial and conviction in abstentia before allowing the aforementioned citizen to be targeted for termination.

[-] 1 points by Coyote88 (-24) 5 years ago

Too true.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

If anything Switzerland might prove that available quality healthcare helps get mental patients the help they need.

Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System

Also this fact, those in financially less favorable positions are more likely to be crime victims, as well as commit crimes. - Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Switzerland has a great standard of living. Big difference in US poverty rate in comparison to Switzerland.

The Swiss child poverty rate is one of the lowest in the world.

Oppression is also way higher in the states versus Switzerland.

You dangle the wrong angle.

Great standards of living and less oppression is why the crime rate in Switzerland is so low.

[-] 0 points by 3roundmagsonly (-63) 5 years ago

The shooters family was wealthy. The mother was very hands on in terms of care.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

First of all im not talking specifically about Lanza. We're talking over all crime rates and why they occur. Yes there are instances that break the mold.

Even Switzerland had the Zug Massacre

[-] -1 points by 3roundmagsonly (-63) 5 years ago

Name a mass murderer who was in poverty.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

Von Maur shooter... also happened in my city.

Statistical evidence shows a link to crime rates and poverty in America.... of course among many things. It is not the sole reason.

But increased standards of living, high quality available healthcare, and less oppression, generally create a better society with less violence. Switzerland being an example of that.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

Just about every person in my city robbing gas stations at gun point lives in poverty

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 5 years ago

It seems like there ARE places that are completely safe from heavily armed Troubled Loners-Troubled Loners don't seem to be interested in schools that are mostly African American or Latino.They also don't seem interested in the many charter schools that exist to serve families with dual American-Israeli citizenship.Private schools for the children of Wealthy Elites also don't interest them.Suburban Malls in white middle class communities are less safe.It seems like Troubled Loners are actually targetting Middle America.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

for example the mall shooting that happened in my city. and the school shooting.

both were teenagers too.

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 5 years ago

I wish I had the proper computer skills to try to crunch the data on these incidents.Anyhow-at this point we certainly have enough data-there have been over 40 of these weird incidents,and even looking at unprocessed data,there are strange commonalities among them.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

Another huge factor is often terrible and abusive parenting.

I'm not sure about the boy in the school shooting here in my city, but I know that played a factor in the Von Maur shooting here.

[-] 3 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 5 years ago

These cases are spooky-especially the notion that doctors who are controlled by The Masters of the Universe may have done something to meddle with some of these people.Certainly we do know about alot of research that has been done in the area of behavior modification by people like B.F.Skinner and others.Then we have partial information on programs like MK Ultra.Hundreds of millions of dollars are expended EACH YEAR in Black Budget projects and we do not have a clue about what that money has been and is being spent on.I do remember research I did a few years ago on the assassination of RFK.I try to study eyewitness accounts carefully and I remember that many of these accounts included descriptions of the demeanor of Sirhan Sirhan:"Robotic-Zombielike-Glassy-Eyed-Like a Person in a Trance,"etc.Also,all along up to the present Sirhan Sirhan claims he remembers absolutely nothing of the event.I prefer skepticism but well funded scientific research has definately produced technological advances that made possible that which was thought by everyone to be impossible.With these Black Budgets,The Masters of the Universe could fund any kind of research that interests them.And nothing interests them more than technologies that could control behavior...What a buzzkill! LOL

[-] 1 points by Toby99 (22) 5 years ago

Behavior modification proof is starting to be exposed.


Sandy Hook Eye Witness and Police Audio


[-] 1 points by ogoj2 (32) 5 years ago

Hi Harry, Do you know Jon Ronson's work? He did a little piece in his Lost at Sea book on a town called North Pole, Alaska, a real place where kids' Santa letters get delivered, a place with year round Christmas to the point that it is a kind of mental health hazard.

Anyway, it's a subtle piece, thought provoking, you'd like it. A largish group of kids came very close to carrying out a horrific school slaughter, averted mostly by luck at the last moment. The kids got off with counseling.

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 5 years ago

Hi,Og-yes-I am familiar with Jon R's work,and I have seen that piece.I really like Jon's work quite a bit because he puts effort into evenhanded presentation.And,yes I think his stuff is subtle and sort of gently ironic.A good easygoing style,sometimes truly hi-larious.

[-] 1 points by ogoj2 (32) 5 years ago

The piece I liked best was about the murder/suicide phenomenon.

In the USA a man wipes out his family, then himself about once a week.

But Ronson manages to hint at some much deeper, creepier social pathology.

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 5 years ago

I love the footage of Jon struggling to talk reasonably with people who are completely unreasonable-like the horrible family that pickets the funerals of American soldiers with the God Hates America and Fags signs.In one hilarious segment Jon told an American Nazi he was Jewish and forced the guy to amend his declaration that "All Jews are Scum and must die" to exclude Jon Ronson from being declared Scum deserving of Mandatory Death.Jon also did a thing with Alex Jones that was really good and was the first time I heard of Jon.That Bohemian Grove thing is actually the only one of Alex's movies that is any good.I also liked the Crazy Rulers of the World,and The Men Who Stare At Goats.Great stuff.

[-] 1 points by 3roundmagsonly (-63) 5 years ago

And how many are mass murderers?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

We're talking about crime rates in this post. Mass murderers is not the topic.

Von Maur shooter. Mass killer in my city. He lived in poverty because he had a family that abused him.

But again, I'm mainly familiar with crime in my city.

Also the quote I mentioned about poverty and crime is based on actual statistics. Your denial is annoying.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

Jeffrey Dahmner

[-] 1 points by 3roundmagsonly (-63) 5 years ago

Dahmer was killing at an early age. If he were rich, he might have killed thousands.

[-] 1 points by Toby99 (22) 5 years ago

Dahmer killed many, but not at once. He was a serial killer. Different psychiatric make up.


[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 5 years ago

did you really just try to compare us to the swiss? a nation whose neutrality is legendary? a nation with direct democracy, a nation with universal healthcare that is the best healthcare in the world, a nation that has a social security system that covers sickness and accident, maternity pay, the state pension for the elderly and for dependent survivors, invalidity benefit, and unemployment benefit. oh did i mention the free university and vocational training? yeah you can start comparing our country to theirs when ours is something like theirs. near as i can tell they don't have libertarian assholes in their country dictating policy like we do here.

[-] 0 points by Toby99 (22) 5 years ago

"This shooting is yet another tragic example of the failed, grotesque insistence on helpless victim zones where any crazed gunman can be assured of a large number of disarmed, undefended, helpless victims, all crammed into one place, where he can kill many children before an armed defender arrives from elsewhere."


[-] 0 points by town (-374) 5 years ago

is goes against the dem/lib/progressive theme of guns are bad and no one should be allowed to own them.

[-] 1 points by ogoj2 (32) 5 years ago

Do you have a fear of castration? How would you describe your relation with your mother?