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Forum Post: Support Capitalism

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 10, 2011, 6:37 p.m. EST by Jflynn64 (337)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than any government legislation or action. These groups that oppose free markets want the purse strings to control their institutions. And this puts more people into poverty. We need to get the message correct. Support smaller business, groups and government and send the control back to the localities. This means less taxes and fees.



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[-] 3 points by LardbuttsReincarnation (4) 2 years ago

Capitalism is the only moral system. I laugh at the socialist OWSers crying for jobs, as if these things drop out of the sky. They are the product of entrepreneurs risking their capital to earn more money. The shrill voices of the far left, including Obama, Democrats and OWSers ices capitalist make more fevor for making more money -- oh my god! greed! -- resulting in relatively high rates of unemployment in the US.

The current regime needs to be overthrown, More greed. More capitalism. More profit, less taxes. Then, and only then will you have your stupid jobs.

The Green Party. Join it.

[-] 3 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

It does mean supporting smaller businesses, but it also means using regulations to create an environment in which they can safely thrive without being gobbled up or run out of business by much larger corporations.

[-] -2 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

I disagree, all regulation does it put power into the hands of a large bureaucracy that ultimately will abuse that power. Large corporations and institutions will implode on themselves since they can't keep outperforming. That's why your largest corporations today weren't around 20 years ago. Sears is a shell of itself while Costco was regional 20 years. ago.

[-] 3 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Actually, without regulation they can do whatever the f--- they want wherever the f--- they want. If they want to march in and knock out mom-and-pop stores all they have to do is put up a store and aggressively price dump,; even if it means they take a temporary loss they'll make it all back and then some in the long term because there won't be any competition. The natural states of a completely deregulated market are generally either monopoly or oligopoly; there need to be rules in place to protect small businesses and deal with aggressive tactics by corporations if you want to have real small businesses come back.

[-] 0 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Corporations can do whatever they want? Tell that to Borders, Blockbuster, and Netflix. They all made stupid decisions that affected the way theirs customers viewed them, and they paid a price. No elected officials needed to step in and land on them, no picketing necessary, no legislation needed - they lost their customers, and they suffered for it, while other companies that served customers well benefitted. They weren't evil, they just screwed up, and the fluctuations of the market took care of them.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

No they can't do whatever they want unless they are providing a good or service that people buy. That's the point. Markets fluctuate as corporations stumble and make missteps. Institutions do not keep growing without innovation. They implode on themselves. Governments and regulations do very little to help small business primarily because they don't know how. I wouldn't want to be the one making the investment into which source of energy will be the low cost provider in the future. No one knows right now.

[-] 2 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

What is the nature of capital? Where does that come from? How does a man gets wealthy under capitalism. If you think it is based on hard work think again. There are several billion people on this planet working their buts off everyday and they live worse than most dogs. Capital is a product of labor. It is the value of labor that produces a commodity which when sold in the market is pocketed by the capitalist, minus the value which the capitalist pays the labor to sustain itself (i.e., survive) and the cost of the means of production. That surplus value that the capitalist pockets is effectively a THEFT OF LABOR because the capitalist had no productive function in all this process. But the capitalist does not stop there, and through the competitive process is urged to lower its costs by increasingly undermining labor by all means necessary (e.g., anti-union and other workers' class-conscious and organizational actions, buying up union bosses, pegging one group of workers against others, outsourcing, and above all through the ever-increasing use of science and technology). In addition, it externalizes other costs (e.g., waste, pollution, disease, environmental destruction, climate change, physical and ecological resource exploitation, etc.) effectively stealing the present and future inheritance of human species and the biosphere. The competitive struggle amongst capitalists even leads them to undermine and kill each other with the smaller business being effectively crushed by the larger ones as the latter accumulates more power leading to massive monopolies extending to the state which is effectively the political instrument of their will and power.

The small bourgeoisie / capitalists are caught in this conundrum of wanting the benefits of capitalism to enrich themselves by theft of labor and environment, but resent the competition that got ahead of them i.e., big business and their government or the big fish which threatens to swallow them. This ignores the fact that many such big business were once small ones themselves and through the natural selection evolutionary process within capitalism had to grow leaner and meaner to survive becoming thus bigger and necessarily more oppressive and repressive. The ethical argument against big business ultimately does not hold much water as it is the nature of capitalism itself based on the exclusive concept of private ownership encouraging competition / fear and greed that motivates the capitalists in their ultimately self-destructive actions as they ravage the host (human species and the planet's biosphere) that feeds them.

Attempts at reforming capitalism all fail as attempts at reforming feudalism failed. Any economic system based on private ownership naturally leads to accumulation of power. When such a state threatens human survival in a significant scale (now arguably much more acutely than the period at the end of feudalism in Europe) only adoption of a new economic system based on radically different economic principles that make it more sustainable can be considered as a realistic / practical solution.

[-] -1 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

More people are living better today in the world than ever before and it appears from my eyes that it is due to capitalism. I have no problem if an owner takes a risk on me and hires me and he makes more than me. Right now, my employer is doing just that and it allows me to feed my family and provide healthcare for them when one of them get sick.

It sure seems to me that people with capital do work hard and take a lot of risk. That employs people. I do wonder as I walk by the protestors why they aren't at work and do they have families.

[-] 2 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

Anything short of equality is a form of slavery. If you are a content slave so be it. I am not and will never be. I find it a sign of mental health disease if you are willing to enrich someone else disproportionally more than yourself. I find it an incredible sign of cowardice that so many people in this country accept such conformity and submission while on the other side of their mouth talk about "USA, land of the free and the brave". I am well traveled and know that most of the people in the world would not submit to such a farce (that is why the ruling class often has guns pointed at them) whereas, here many accept submission almost willingly. I suspect "religion" has a lot to do with it.

Remember, you do not have to be unhappy to be oppressed. You can argue your conditions are better here than most places in the world and that still does not change the facts about the nature of this oppressive system and its state. Officially, they spend over half a trillion dollars on the military alone (over 1/2 of the budget each year). If you count all the related expenditures to mass control of the population (e.g., legal system, prisons, FBI and associated agencies, media, etc.), that would amount to about 70% or the total budget. USA has the highest imprisoned population in the world. How free is this god damn place?

People with big capital don't even work hard at stealing. They hire other people to steal for them, using the "best and latest science and technology". Those are the main people valued by them. Otherwise, everyone is disposable for them, especially if they can be replaced by a robot or computer.

I am one of those protestors you talk about. I worked my ass off from elementary school and even reached high rankings as a professional. I sacrificed basically the bigger part of my life, now disabled due to the abuses at my work directly related to the profit-motive of the state and corporations. I never could afford a family even while I was working and was constantly stressed out with little sleep. Capitalism sucked the life out of me and continues to do so. My only hope is others like me, in the OWS global movement, especially the working class. We will reclaim the world that is ours and will share it in rewards and responsibility, because we know the grim alternative and will never forget it. Consider joining us as we welcome everyone to build a more sustainable and just society based on common ownership and equality. True liberty and democracy is only possible under common ownership and equality.

[-] 2 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Evolution, why are you afraid to use the word "communism?" If that is what you are proposing, and it sounds like it is, then have the guts to come out and say it.

[-] 0 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

Iggy, silly boy.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 2 years ago

You truly have fantastic posts.

[-] 1 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

I am learning. But I like to be challenged. Truth can only be discovered through infinite challenge - it is the one standing after all the imposters have crumbled. I never claim to have it or find it but I am in a long journey - our species journey for survival - worthy of much patience and practice. I hope to apply an improving approach when we get to the more practical level in experimentally planning our future society.

I'd welcome your ideas of collaboration to help the movement grow.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 2 years ago

Absolutely. Look forward to your posts.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

According to Wikipedia, 20% of the budget is spent on defense, is this wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png

I do have a family which comes with responsibility so I am very thankful that m employer took the risk and capital to start the company because it feeds my family. If you folks are willing to feed my family and put them through school, I am open to it, yes?

I don't think of myself as a coward so maybe you can enlighten me. For all of the people around the world who would not submit to the farce, I ask them why the US continues to see net immigration of these people into the country? Why are they not trying to get into Cuba?

[-] 2 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

Slaves move around to better their conditions. That does not mean they get out of slavery. Even with that I have known many Latinos and Mexicans that have gone back to their "native country" in the last 2-3 years. The fact is USA under the bankster gangsters is becoming a third world country. For the roughly 50 million unemployed / underemployed it is already a third world country. I think the situation in Cuba (another state capitalist country,"don't judge a book by its cover") is a bit better than here. I think if Cuba was not an Island what you are proposing may well happen. I have not heard of "boat people" from Cuba for a long while now. Looks like the word has gotten around that USA isn't such a nice place as it used to be - with monster gangster banksters gorging themselves with its flesh and blood.

[-] -1 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

So are you going to feed my family?

If things are better in Cuba and other countries why are they not seeing net immigration?

[-] 1 points by afarmer (65) 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

paraphrase for me as I don't watch youtube.

[-] 1 points by afarmer (65) 2 years ago

Okay, I'll try.. A politician, a business owner, a union worker and a farmer are arguing in the park and a slick salesmen-type gets their intentions. He offers people in the park potion called "Ism" a cure for all their problems. All they have to do is sign their rights away. A another man on the bench get up from a nap and hurried over to the group of men before they sign on. The man went to explain how capitalism works and how has helped us. The admits that capitalism is not perfect, but still better than any other system. Before signing the paper, the men tried a little of "Ism" and found that the unions were not allow to strike (because government is the union);it showed that there are no rights in the courts (because the government is the court); it showed farmers forced out and replaced with government agency for farming (because a farm is private ownership); it showed a politician not being able to get his message out (government stifles free speech). After having a taste, the men in the park chase the salesman out of the park. That's it in a nutshell. So stay away from a bottle called "Ism". :)

[-] 1 points by afarmer (65) 2 years ago

Communism is when the government owns and controls everything, and corporate fascism is when the government controls everything but doesn't own everything. Both pick and chose the winners and believe in giving up the people's rights for the good of the collective (for communists it's society, and for fascists it's national); they both end with two classes of people, the rich and the poor. Communism and fascism talk a good game about the building the middle class, but there is no middle class in both. In communism the government is the rich, the people are equally poor (but at least their equal), and in fascism the rich are the government and the corporations that the government picks by destroying their competition, thus leaving them with a monopoly. So communism is not a good alternative for fascism.

[-] 1 points by LSN45 (535) 2 years ago

I agree we need Capitalism. REAL Capitalism! Not the pseudo "crony-capitalism" we currently have. Right now the corporations have our politicians bought and paid for so they can privatize the profit and socialize the losses. We don't have capitalism right now, it is more like "neo-fuedalism" where the rich and powerful are making all the decisions instead of the American public.

Here's my 2 cents:

There are a lot of improvements that need to be made. The list reforms people Americans want to see is long and varied depending on who you talk to. That said, I believe there is one reform that would provide the American people the best chances of seeing other meaningful reforms actually happen - that is REAL, loop-hope free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM! I have seen others on this site calling this the "fulcrum" or pivotal issue. Right now the current legalized bribery, pay-to-play system of campaign donations and paid lobbyists has disenfranchised the American voter. Until this is fixed, any other reform the politicians may try to placate us with (be it a change to healthcare, clamping down predatory school loans, new financial regulations, etc.) will be about as effective as a farmer putting a new roof on his CHICKEN COOP, but still letting the FOX guard it.

We need to go back to the original political currency. Instead of the current system of who can collect the most money from corporations and special interests it should be who has the BEST IDEAS to EFFECTIVELY RUN THE COUNTRY (we don't need "Wealth Redistribution," what we need is "Political Influence Redistribution")!

For the sake our our children and future generations of Americans, we need to take back our democracy from the rich and powerful who are using their vast sums of money to "speak" as if they represent millions of Americans. This "Corporate Personhood" that has crept into our laws is allowing them to manipulating our policies in their favor at the expense of the average American (the recent "Citizens United" Supreme Court ruling is a miscarriage of justice and must be reversed. The $50 or $100 a normal American may give to a political campaign becomes meaningless when corporations or other special interests are handing our millions to buy political access to the decision making process.

For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!

[-] 1 points by orz (83) 2 years ago

Capitalism without government means I can pirate anything within my power. It means no one is protecting the bank but the hired goons out front. It means corporate domination and transnational competition with slave labor at the hand of a gun. It means businesses dump petrochemical waste in your backyard and you die for drinking the water, because the hospital wants cash up front. It means people aren't educated to know what their rights are, as they're ghettoized out of existence.

You need the state and its guns more than we need your old ponzi scheme, which is too expensive in the end. You say we're self-interested? Well it's in our self-interest to stop pretending capitalist subjugation makes our lives better. We don't want the bullshit jobs that exist in the first place, that perpetuate mis-education, mis-information, and violence on the marginalized majority of the world.

Support co-operative takeovers of every corner of society. Cut out management, administrators and capitalist profiteers who don't generate wealth, they take it, and then pay other people to tell you why we need them.

We don't. Stop sending lies you're not even paid to spread.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

So how are you going to set it up. Should I work for you, should you work for me, who makes those decisions?

[-] 1 points by orz (83) 2 years ago

You wouldn't be asking those questions when you started making 60k a year for a job that ordinarily pays 20k, just because you now share the burden of ownership.

"A co-operative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise." --International Co-operative Alliance.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

Sorry, I don't quite understand your point. So if I work for a coop I should expect three times market wages?

[-] 1 points by orz (83) 2 years ago

It depends. Va savior.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

How do I get one of these jobs, are you hiring?

[-] 1 points by MrMiller (128) from Sandy, UT 2 years ago

I don't hate capitalism so much as I hate the free market, but not in all ways. There are good things about the free market, but I see it as a little too chaotic for the stability of society, which is the one thing I care about the most. If we are throwing the idea of stable, happy families to the wind in favor of the free market and other such ideals, than we need to rethink it.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Only morons from the governement, who have no idea about my industry, picking winners and losers could make it more insane.

How old are you, may I ask?

[-] 1 points by MrMiller (128) from Sandy, UT 2 years ago

I don't think it matters how old I am, but if it makes you happy, I'm 25. Yeah, I don't like the fact that the government picks winners and losers, but I also don't like the fact that production would increase and provide more for everybody if there wasn't such a reality of people needing to win or lose. The rat race in the computer industry was absolutely essential in making computers better, but if they are already pretty damn good, than just set up more factories and produce more, rather than having one factory working in overtime.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

People are people dude. We have been this way since the beginning of time. Just look around, its insane. Look at all the other species, what they do and make, and then look at us.

The drive is just who we are. Im not thrilled about it, but I dont see it changing anytime soon. Its been that way for thousands of years.

[-] 1 points by sophiaomni (289) 2 years ago

I also support capitalism, but I can't support the version of it that we have in the United States, which really should be called "corporate capitalism" rather than truly "free-market capitalism."

[-] 0 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

great Post !

[-] 0 points by sato (148) 2 years ago

Support capitalism. Support smaller businesses. Regulate huge companies like Walmart to allow small businesses to compete.

[-] -2 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

I have a family to fees which I do by getting high quality food from Walmart. Why should a small business owner get a benefit over me. How is that fair?

[-] 1 points by sato (148) 2 years ago

I'll try to make to explain it in a simple manner. I'm not good at this when discussing with people that don't want to understand but I'll try. Walmart offers you low prices because they have the market share to be competitive. If you supported small businesses, they could do the same.

For example suppose both businesses buy milk. (Figures are invented) Walmart buys it at $2. Same as small business. Now Walmart sells it at 2.25 and earns 0.25 and they make good business with that because they make up with huge sales. The small business on the other hand sells it for 2.50 because they can't make by selling more units.

If that example isn't enlightening you to how businesses work, I'm afraid there's no way to make you understand.

If businesses were able to compete, prices would get competitive anyway, because businesses would compete for shoppers. Right now, Walmart is a clear winner hands down just because they can.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

Actually Walmart doesn't pay the $2 for milk. Because they are well managed and get volume their cost is less than the small business.

Any other qualifications about me that you would like to make since I clearly don't understand.

[-] 0 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree.

[-] -1 points by whisper (212) 2 years ago

A common mistake that people make regarding capitalism is that it will result in "total control" by one organization or another. This stems from a general misunderstanding of what capitalism is. Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned. This does not mean that oceans, the air, or any other non-divisible resource would be owned. The concept of ownership does not apply to those things. Thus, the idea that under a capitalist system there would be no means of protecting the environment is refuted. If a private company pollutes the air or oceans, they are responsible for violating the rights of others and can be held accountable for it -- not because anyone owns the air or the ocean, but because all people require air in order to breath and the source of that air is the atmosphere. Similarly, those who subsist on resources provided by the ocean are protected against pollution because said pollution violates their right to life. Their lives are dependent on the health of the ocean and since nobody owns the ocean, nobody has a right to dump waste into it. This can only be granted as a privilege. The only community which has the legitimate authority to grant such a privilege is the population of the entire world. It would require the consent of the entire world to allow pollution of the air or ocean.

I feel that I should make it clear that when I refer to pollution, I am referring to pollution which nature (and/or man) cannot (or will not) clean up before it negatively affects human beings. Without this clarification, breathing could be considered a source of pollution since doing so releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. This CO2 is taken care of by plants which convert it back into oxygen.