Forum Post: Starting a firestorm
Posted 9 years ago on May 26, 2014, 6:18 p.m. EST by DKAtoday
(33802)
from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If we operated on "reality" - if we honored reality. Then it would follow - that - the individual who was required to put in the most hours/days in any process/business - would be the most valuable person in the process/business - whether that individual was the CEO or the maintenance man. That individual if reality of necessity is followed would be the highest paid individual in that process/business. But when has whatever is Right/Correct to do - ever been reality?
OK - unleash the outrage. Show me just how much you believe in elitism - how much you believe in pride of place - rather than believe in pride/worth/need of contribution.
Look - this is my position:
If a process can not operate without any individual job being done by an individual - then - it follows that that job and in relation the individual doing that job - is an absolute necessity for the business/process not to fail for the business to be successful/prosperous.
Further "any" job that is a necessity for a business/process to operate/function and even prosper is an absolute essential and absolutely valuable position/job.
In my thinking - if a job need not be done - well then - there shouldn't be such a job as it is an unnecessary waste of time and money.
BUT - if any job is essential to make a complete process - well then - that job is no less valuable to any other job in the "complete" process.
So seeing things as I do - I do not feel that any ( and this would mean ALL ) job necessary to complete a process = the business - is worth any more or any less per hour than any of the other jobs necessary to make the business/process complete.
Following this thinking - then - all jobs should pay the same per hour - Top to Bottom.
OK - start screaming - go ahead - I know you want to.
Sorry, but the guy that cleans the floors is going to be easier to replace than the guy who is cutting up someone's heart for surgery.
If you want them to both be on the same pay level, good luck with your operation.
BTW - a surgeon and a maintenance person have much in common - both are intelligent - both are skilled - one works on biological equipment while the other works on mechanical equipment. Many Maintenance people are absolutely brilliant and while many surgeons are brilliant as well - I don't think that there are many brilliant surgeons that would know how to take on rebuilding many types of machinery. Same goes for a maintenance person - they may be brilliant in their field - but likely would not know how to be a surgeon. Does that make one smarter than the other(?) or just educated and trained differently due to their own personal interests?
So perhaps they are exactly the same in IQ levels, but skill is much more than just intelligence.
You see a maintenance man as nothing more than a person pushing a broom? So sorry to disillusion you - but - working in several machine shops and a small manufacturing company - the maintenance man did not push a broom - nope - that position was involved in maintaining equipment.
You did note where I said any and all Essential jobs - Essential.
And you support the idea of elitism. Don't know if that is your intent - but if it is not - it just goes to show your born and raised programming. Programming to support the status quo.
There are certain things that are programmed via culture, and certain things that are programmed simply because we are humans. We can see it even in the animal kingdom, some animals get more respect in the herd for various reasons.
If eveyone's jobs were interchangeable it would be one thing. But its not. Some people are just more skilled than others, just better at stuff. I always told people if they dont like what the boss was doing, nothing is stopping them from starting their own and showing everyone how its done.
Imo elitism is not the differentiating of tasks according to desire or ability, but the belief that some people are just better due to absolutely nothing but whom they came from.
My thinking that my boss or my doctor is more skilled than I and should make more than I doesnt really make me an elitist supporter. Elitism is something much bigger than who makes what at the local Midas.
What it makes you is someone who feels subservient to others. Deny it all you want - but you are placing others over yourself ( or you are seeming to place others above yourself ) - do you often feel inadequate?
Someone being better at something than I is simply part of the nature of our world, doesn't really generate any emotions in me to be honest.
Are feeling of inadequate something you struggle with?
What a load of crap - you are a work/position snob - you just pretend that you are being humble - did anyone ever tell you that it is OK to be Humble and that being Humble does not require that you make yourself a doormat for others to step on and wipe their feet?
Ok.
BS - unless of course - that you are dead inside. But I think not - you play a game of supporting things as they are = unjust. Your not dead inside - you are just playing a role. Or perhaps you "are" dead inside - making it possible for you to play Judas goat with out feeling the need to commit suicide for the crap you push.
??? I have never thought about my doctors pay grade whatsoever. And thinking of it now, I'm not feeling as if I am inadequate for making less than her.
Perhaps this is a healthy outlook?
Perhaps you are a total bag of shit? Or having never considered(?) your Dr. you would not have forwarded such an example and on top of it pronounced in your position that this job makes this individual better than others.
Sometimes examples are needed to make the point. You may be putting too much emphasis on money in terms of happiness. Its part of the equation, not the answer.
{ EDIT } OK - so money isn't happiness - I agree - but you seem to think that poor wages is OK and not detrimental to happiness - I do not agree - So - how about we make an example of you ( your idea to have examples ) - how do you feel about making 2.25 an hour(?) - oh plus tips of course. Are you gonna be Happy/content?
EDIT -> If money does not matter to you then you should be happy with none - Hey?
Its part of the equation, some people are happy back packing around with very little, not even a bed but sleeping on couches, while others consider not getting their university degree paid for the highest crime. Its all relative to what the expectations are.
What are your expectations? Assuming you have a roof, and food and obviously a computer, what other material things would make you happier?
There are intangigles and there are tangibles. The tangibles can be taken but no one can take your heart.
I think you make more sense here - assuming you are not thinking of wage differentials that exist today - not sure what is just 2 to 1 or 7 to 1 like Mondragon but certainly not 350 to 1 like we have now. here is my response to dk - [-] 0 points by flip (5207) 0 minutes ago
you are really pushing too hard on this one button - it is possible to have a really well functioning society where there is a wage differential. someone who educates themselves or works longer hours or what ever can justly make more than another who wants to go home early or is happy doing less stressful work. it is also possible that another society could keep the doctors wage and that of the rookie nurse the same - there is no black or white here and we are so far away from that it is stupid to get twisted up on the details. the fact that you are hung up on wages shows you have not thought this through - free your mind!
So here's your pick-axe go dig me some coal - Hey? Cause you will always own your own heart - Right? This combined with a generous 2.25 an hour and You must be a happy camper.
As I look through this conversation I see replies that are crap pushing, work snobs and shit bags.
There is no wage or job that is enjoyable working next to people like that.
Enjoy your evening. I wish you the best of luck in whatever it is you do.
Funny - looking at ur profile u fit the profile of one of this sites long time attackers. Your spew today has been in support of inequality and in support of some people being treated better than everyone else.
My take on U is That U R a shill/servant ( willingly ) of inequality.
Have I once called you a shit bag, a work snob, or full of shit, or dreamed of rubbing your face in shit?
No I have not.
That is how you have chosen to deal with someone who replied to your story. That is very telling all the way through.
What is it you do with such a fantastic view of life in MN?
Your personality profile is terrifying.
" Well you are misunderstanding what I was saying then, and you yourself just said you are not open to debate but wanted to see who would respond in a manner fit for an attack by you. "
OH please - if you took the time to read the post - then - barring the possibility of your being unable to follow the train of thought being expressed in the post and so the intent of the post. Then - You came into the post with the intent of starting an argument - your playing devil's-advocate being for inequality and how it is not only OK but natural ( likening us - as I recall - to beasts in the field ).
If you feel that my slapping your face for your pro-inequality stance was wrong well then " Thats the sign of mental disturbance. "
" The manner in which you have addressed this entire experience is all the proof we need when wondering what is wrong with our society. "
Sorry but - why do I feel that you are looking in the mirror when you say that? I mean I can understand my disgust at inequality - I am not so understanding of your support for it.
" You should stay away from workers in general with your vitriol. "
Says the boss to the union?
" Your statement at the end of the top reads OK - start screaming - go ahead - I know you want to. "
And there you are - not screaming ( granted ) - but defending inequality as though it is what should be. So - no screaming - just a lot of crap.
" People attempt to debate this topic with you as you ask, only to have you turn it to insults, aggressive posturing, and accusations of malicious intent. "
You have not attempted debate ( and debate is not what I was looking for as it is pretty obvious to see in the post ) - you have attempted to excuse inequality ( that was the meaning of the post - to see how many would ). That ( excusing inequality ) is pretty malevolent if not malicious.
Well you are misunderstanding what I was saying then, and you yourself just said you are not open to debate but wanted to see who would respond in a manner fit for an attack by you.
This entire process feels like a set up. A framing of something for the emotional venting of calling people names, rubbing their noses in shit, etc.
Thats the sign of mental disturbance. The manner in which you have addressed this entire experience is all the proof we need when wondering what is wrong with our society.
A dog eat dog mentality. Aggressive, threatening, assuming and vile.
You should stay away from workers in general with your vitriol.
U R what U R - and I am not doing U any favor if I were to pretend otherwise. Look in the mirror and see the realty of your personal failings - accept the fact that you have much personal growth to accomplish to becoming a better person. Or continue to live ( clueless? - um - no - heartless ) as you are.
If you do not wish to attempt to alter my way of thinking, then why post something like this?
Your statement at the end of the top reads OK - start screaming - go ahead - I know you want to.
People attempt to debate this topic with you as you ask, only to have you turn it to insults, aggressive posturing, and accusations of malicious intent.
Is that what you want? What is the point of any of this then?
may I be excused and ignored now ?
I work with everyone who wants a healthy and prosperous world for all. Though my time I give freely and I do not work directly with others - I just support everyone's work for justice/health/peace/prosperity for "ALL" and more. I expect that you work by yourself as well - as no one here would have you - except for other shills that is. Though I could be mistaken - do you work for Charlie and Davie? or one of their funded operations?
Let me help you- if you find yourself working with someone whom you think is fine with their doctor making more than them, dont do the following:
If you can find another way to converse with them, you may actually achieve something as in changing their minds, opening up their minds, etc.
Otherwise your just another asshole with a harsh opinion.
Well that was about as vague as possible. Support and work are not the same, people who work with others successfully dont act like this. You do not work with other people and still act as if you are an expert.
Do you tell your coworkers you would rub their face in shit if they were fine with their boss making more than them?
1 -> It is the same thing - only the degree is different. Why should anyone make more than they need? Does your Dr. need more than you do?
2 -> I do not feel subservient to others - I never have. It is you who feels that you should be subservient ( and THAT is what I said ) - if only to your Dr. - Hey?
3 -> Your supposition here is based on your ( purposeful? ) misunderstanding ( misrepresentation ) of what You say I said. So your supposition is as full of crap as you are = overflowing with feces.
4 -> Where does that leave us? Right where we started = you supporting inequality and Me rubbing your face in it.
You seem to take great pleasure in "winning" this. Shoving my face in shit.
How many people do you work with?
You might have some underlying anger issues, were you ever in an abusive relationship?
There is a thing called projecting. As in, my saying Im not worried about it and you then chiming in with Im subserviant, and asking if I often feel inadequate, etc.
You are not speaking from a position of strength on this topic, as these types of statements are usually coming from bullies, who are actually in a position of weakness.
I sense you are frustrated, most likely about personal issues and not so much those around you, as if it was the later your empathy and ability to deal with your peers would probably be stronger.
I have seen a lot of stuff on the internet, and I can tell you your profile fits the cyber bully.
"TIf you dont have a problem with those making more"
I didn't say that - you did - just now. I said that I do not despise everyone who makes more than I. You however seem to make excuses as to why others ( the few ) should have so much more than almost everyone else ( combined ).
You are taking something such as a small percentage controlling the entire worlds wealth and making the comparision to my pay vs my doctors, saying its the same thing.
Then in another breath, saying you dont despise those that make more than you- although you previously said - What it makes you is someone who feels subservient to others. - Those were your words.
I thought they were ridiculous, but you said it regardless. If you have feelings of subserviants, but are not spiteful, then you are numb or a job snob?
So where does that leave us? What is it you do, btw?
Well I guess it is a good thing that I do not despise everyone who makes more than I - Hey? Just those that feel that it is right and good that they have others who make less than them even unto the point that those others are starving.
TIf you dont have a problem with those making more, then by your own previous statement further up you are endorsing elitism.
This conversation makes no sense at this point. Theres a myriad of ways to make a small difference, I suggest you pick one and focus on it, because telling people who comment on your stories they are a slew of names is really not helping anyone, including yourself.
Are you speaking from experience as a dark heart? As I see you doing nothing here other than making excuses for the injustice all around and stating that people should just be happy with how things are.
Living your life in such a manner where you despise everyone who makes more than you is a good way to end up messed up. People get your anger- such as I- who have nothing to do with any of your problems.
I wish things were fantastic for everyone, and I made more, but Im not going to fool myself into thinking I can do my doctors job. If you want to be a doctor than you should be.
What? Even though you own your own Heart? You mean you were not telling the truth? I am so shocked!
Dark hearts can always smother a good one with enough time.
This conversation has gone to disturbing. A self starting firestorm by any means necessary. Congrats.
you are really pushing too hard on this one button - it is possible to have a really well functioning society where there is a wage differential. someone who educates themselves or works longer hours or what ever can justly make more than another who wants to go home early or is happy doing less stressful work. it is also possible that another society could keep the doctors wage and that of the rookie nurse the same - there is no black or white here and we are so far away from that it is stupid to get twisted up on the details. the fact that you are hung up on wages shows you have not thought this through - free your mind!
Vast inequality of income - does - drive the economy into the have's and the starving. Bottling up the majority of ALL income into an extremely small percentage of the population - creates a dysfunctional economy - where few do well and masses struggle to live.
no.
the status quo has the money to pay for it
Yes
oh dear
just another crack in the floor
[Removed]
since i may never get to a surgeon
why should I care if the rich get searched on an airplane ride?
[Removed]
our problem is the simple accumulation of money into the hands of the few ..... who are welling to use that to their advantage to impoverish and enslave people .... and nothing else...
as throughout all of history....
our choice is to fight back... violently.... or gradually... or politically....
or simply make new....
make new money... make new system... make new types of wealth s ...
The problem is - we rebelled against privilege and then recreated the same system of privilege under another name. The only way to change is to recognize equal value.
well.... what if instead... everyone were paid simply because they are people....and paid enough that they could have food, shelter, healthcare and some entertainment....
and those that want more... could enter the competitive market....
and those that want to do non-profit benevolent type things could find the resources to do it...
would that not be a better way ?
You are talking about what we have it today - 99% working to just get by and 1% reaping all of the gravy. There is no justice in the current system - there are the very few who "have" and the great masses that have "not" - the few profiting greatly off of the contributions of the masses. Why can't the proceeds of any business - 1st remove expenses ( this includes reinvestment for improvement and expansion ) - then if necessary value the owner and executive staff at two hours for every one the rest of the employees put in. They would get twice the pay of better than 90% of the employees - while the employees would receive untold riches from the business that few have ever seen or imagined before.
DK... personally I think we should tar and feather all the bankers and all the politicians and give their wealth to the poor .... they are traitors imo....
but... that will not fix the problem.... there will be new bankers who steal and new politicians who sell out their country next year....
we have answers.... we need new economies... even the greedy realize this... labor jobs are going away.... we new to look ahead ,,,and we are
{ EDIT } Result of failed - trashed - thrown-out regulations - the greedy profit while sending the rest of the world to hell to satisfy their unregulated actions - actions to get as much as possible in the least amount of time possible and to hell with any damage caused or to hell with anyone ever living to see tomorrow.
EDIT -> The majority of the population needs to stand-up and be counted - no more of the feeble protest of " we don't like it change it"
The Public MUST be protesting from an educated and involved stance - "WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS ANY MORE _ THESE ARE THE CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE ( followed by a detailed list of what is wrong and how each item needs to be addressed.
This is the only way real permanent change for the better will happen.
but... imo... aside from civil war ... is to use what we got left to fix it... vote the mutherfuks out.... put our money we have left into non-profit banks... and develop an additional currency for non-profit type endevors
1st - did you see my edit?
2nd - yes - it will take involvement and actions of the masses to force change = Legally.
I argued...when Occupy first got that $500k donation...and they (nycga) were trying to figure out how to use it.... I argued to buy paper and ink with it and print Occupy Dollars .... instead they made sock puppets !!!
1st - on what we were talking about before - needed change that industry could undertake ( only one small example of a possibility ) to make a major healthy change to our environment as well as economy:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/the-case-against-capitalism/#comment-1033105
2nd - occupy and funding? I think that the rolling jubilee might have been better served by buying up foreclosed properties and putting dispossessed families into them with low interest loans financed through local credit unions ( funding supported by the rolling jubilee - to grow/expand as the action moves forward and results can be published ). But - Hey - What do I know? {:-])
Foreclosed properties bought for and resold for pennies on the dollar of the original debt/purchase price.
yeah.. I read the Tesla post...I liked it... personally I think the new innovative industries are looking out for the people... looking forward... especially companies like Tesla.... and Rolling Jubilee ... I agree ... but still it was wayyyy better than sock puppets !! ;)
it is the old corrupted companies that know they are dying that are panicking and trying to hurt the people
sock puppets suck shit - and - they like it.
hehehe
Really though - consider how powerful it could be to set-up funding guarantees through a credit union for purchasing "local" ( to the credit union/area ) foreclosed properties for pennies on the dollar of the original over ( falsely ) inflated prices. One half of one percent of the interest could be set-up to go back into funding other property purchases. That wouldn't be much - but - it would be more than friendly reasonable and for continuing/supporting a good cause.
" consider how powerful it could be to set-up funding guarantees through a credit union for purchasing "local" ( to the credit union/area ) foreclosed properties for pennies on the dollar of the original over ( falsely ) inflated prices"
Excellent point. Lots of things are very manageable, we just have to want it more than the ones in charge.
yeah... didn't I read here that some group was already doing it ? ...if not... are you familiar with kickstarter or indiegogo ... and another one ??? micro-funding orgs... that are funding all kinds of new things... it might get that started... a little funding can do a long way
Cool - both with dense areas of dire need. Michigan next? Tennessee? Appalachia? etc etc etc etc........................................ so damn many sacrifice states - ooops ummm "zones"
I have heard about foreign country micro-funding efforts - nothing ever for domestic purposes though. See that is the thing - any funding - other than like the rolling jubilee - has always been for use in another country - nothing wrong with that - but - seriously - we have plenty of people in dire need right here in the USA as well.
Aid has always been mostly done wrong = sending money rather than appropriate materials and tools. Money sent - by government as well as private charities - money that then gets confiscated by those in power and hidden away in their private out of country retirement programs - set-up for the day when their population chases them out of the country.
kickstarter based in based in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
https://www.kickstarter.com/team?ref=footer
indiegogo ... I believe is in Chicago https://www.indiegogo.com/
:) yeah!!! was just reading an ElizWarren article... I agree... movement time is coming,... we need to make some noise...everyone is sleeping!!
Everyone has got to wake-up or die in their sleep - we are living in very dire times - change - major change to live sanely - MUST - HAPPEN - NOW
ok... I'll bite ...
DK... I agree ... hours invested are hours invested... should have equal value....
but how about the guy who can bring more as well .... ?
how about the guy who has spent a lifetime learning how to taste the brew... and can analyze the faults.... or the guy that spent ten years in apprenticeship to learn how to paint the faux.... etc...
should they not be valued a little more ? .... they certainly could go somewhere else
That guy should then do that job - it does not mean it is any more valuable to the whole process - because quite literally - if an essential job is not done - any single essential job - then the process is broken and fails - that person however would not likely be doing someone Else's job rather than the one that they can do best. They certainly could go somewhere else - but if all work - all essential work was valued the same in the workplace - why would they leave? If all are profiting the same as the business - rather than just the owner and executive staff - why would they leave?
well ... it depends... if the guy can support his bills ... and enjoys where he is ... he will likely stay.... but if he can't ... he will likely go somewhere that value him more ... no ?
That is the way it is supposed to work now - so - NO - in these current times it is the very rare individual who the employer shows that they value them above others. This thinking created and supports privilege. What happened to equality? I AM NOT EQUAL I AM BETTER THAN EVERYONE
well ... I agree ... it's not fair ... but it is reality... no.?... If joe offered you a job at $10 hr...and I offered you one at $100 hr ... where would you go ?
however... I am with you ... I do believe in equality ... it's the way it should be...
That is exactly why if nothing else there should be a mandatory minimum LIVING wage. A wage that would engender the lowest paid individual to keep a roof over their head and food on their table and be able to seek medical treatment as well as afford clothing and transportation of their choice and take a real vacation as well as put money into savings.
So if someone offers you $75 an hr, and another one offers $200, which one do you go with?
Would you take the $75 out of leading by example? I find this hard to belief.
I thought this question by BradB was at the heart of this post, but was never answered.
Now - who are you trying to channel. Satan? I will give you the world - all you have to do is give up your soul. I don't care how much money I make as long as I have enough to live on - and I feel EVERYONE should have enough to live on - and that means LIVE not just barely survive from moment to moment. Why do you feel that some should have more than most everyone else?
depend on my needs
i owe $30,000 in student debt how many hours is that?
10 weeks worth. Thanks for the honest reply, answers are hard to come by online.
I agree!! and honestly there are organizations right now who are trying to prove that the economy would be better off to simply put everyone on a minimum income regardless if they work or not....
Let us ALL watch Seattle and hope to see a strong overall economy rise out of their effort to institute a 15.00 per hour minimum wage - allowing the masses to put more money into the wider economy - beyond paying rent transportation and groceries.
Look - this is my position:
If a process can not operate without any individual job being done by an individual - then - it follows that that job and in relation the individual doing that job - is an absolute necessity for the business/process not to fail for the business to be successful/prosperous.
Further "any" job that is a necessity for a business/process to operate/function and even prosper is an absolute essential and absolutely valuable position/job.
In my thinking - if a job need not be done - well then - there shouldn't be such a job as it is an unnecessary waste of time and money.
BUT - if any job is essential to make a complete process - well then - that job is no less valuable to any other job in the "complete" process.
So seeing things as I do - I do not feel that any ( and this would mean ALL ) job necessary to complete a process = the business - is worth any more or any less per hour than any of the other jobs necessary to make the business/process complete.
Following this thinking - then - all jobs should pay the same per hour - Top to Bottom.
OK - start screaming - go ahead - I know you want to.
[Removed]
All jobs paying the same? I don't think that would work very well. I think anyone doing anything all week needs fair treatment, (living wage), but the guy talking about the heart surgeon does have a good point. However, I do think there are a lot of doctors who don't really give a shit about their patients anymore. They do things by cookie-cutter guidelines and not by the individual patients. It makes it simpler to earn that big check whilst not giving a shit, (which by the way is contrary to an oath they all take). An argument for them getting the same as the maintenance man would make me think a bit, as they probably aren't even doing good maintenance. Another a lot of folks here probably don't know is that doctors make up a great deal of the 1%. Su-prize, su-prize.
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
Leftforum thread?
Start a firestorm supporting Move to Amend
Move to Amend is coming to New York City!
David Cobb, an attorney and organizer for the Move to Amend coalition, will be speaking at the Left Forum in New York City from May 30th - June 1st, 2014. David will be speaking on three discussion panels at the forum. Find onsite registration info here and find more info on Move to Amend panels below.
Be sure to also check out Citizen Koch, our recently announced film partner, which will be premiering in NYC on June 6th! Citizen Koch investigates the impact of unlimited, anonymous spending by corporations and billionaires on the electoral process, featuring stories of life-long Republicans whose party loyalty is tested when their families become collateral damage in the corporate-backed crusade against organized labor and the working class. Alternately terrifying and funny, Citizen Koch is an essential and powerful portrait of local politics; truly "all politics is local."
Event Details
MTA Panels at the Left Forum: Jon Jay College 540 West 59th St. New York, NY 10019
Friday, May 30th - 5:00pm-6:45pm Workshop: US Social Forum III: Convening to Build a Movement To Win Room L2.85 [read more]
Saturday, June 1st - 11:00am-12:50pm Workshop: USSF: The People's Movement Assembly Room L2.85 [read more]
Sunday, June 2nd - 11:00am-12:50pm Workshop: Legalize Democracy: Building a Movement to Put Corporations Subordinate to the People Room 1.66 [read more]