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Forum Post: SOPA/PIPA Dead! Next Target NDAA Section 1021: Call Supporting H.R. 3785

Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 22, 2012, 9:53 a.m. EST by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement


The January 18th Internet Strike and Representative Calls/Visits worked! SOPA and PIPA were effectively killed. But that doesn't mean the War is over. Life and Democracy are ongoing "battles." Feeding yourself one day doesn't mean you are fed for life. You must continue to work for food, and you must continue to work for Democracy, Liberty, Freedom and Representation.

Rep. Paul has introduced a bill to repeal section 1021 from the NDAA, the section that allows for U.S. Citizens to be detained without due process of law (4th Amendment). Feb. 3rd is a day of action protesting the NDAA. Let's join forces and make it a day of protest and action, call your representatives and ask them to support H.R. 3785.

Going forward, we must all be active and call our representatives as much as possible, for each new bill and piece of legislation that we oppose or support.




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[-] 4 points by francismjenkins (3713) 12 years ago

Not a Ron Paul supporter, I think the fact that he places property rights above civil rights is a morally bankrupt position, but I give it to him on this point, he is vigorously opposing the offensive provision in NDAA (and so I support his legislative proposal).

[-] 3 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

I support him as President, but I don't support that position either. I definitely support his bill to repeal section 1021 of the NDAA.

[-] 1 points by JasonfromChicago (1) 12 years ago

"I think the fact that he places property rights above civil rights is a morally bankrupt position"

  • I'm wondering what you mean by "civil rights". If the property rights of the slaves was respected and protected there would be no slaves. When a majority decides that it can take property from a person or a minority and give it to someone else, that is wrong. The Founders (and Ron Paul) argued that as humans, we all are born with personal rights - the right to think as we will, to believe what we believe, the right to treat our own bodies as we will, etc. and as an extension the right to do as we liked with our own personal property -AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT HARM OTHERS OR THEIR PROPERTY. Life is complicated - there are exceptions I imagine, but property rights seems VERY important to me - they protect ALL of us from tyants AND mobs.
[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 12 years ago

A specific example is his opposition to the Civil Rights Act. Remember, at one time SLAVES WERE VIEWED AS PERSONAL PROPERTY.

Therefore, opposition to slavery inherently required placing human liberty OVER property rights. As a society, we extended this idea when we passed the Civil Rights Act. You might argue the line we drew is obscure (and maybe you're uncomfortable with that idea), but the lines we draw are always obscure.

I also agree that the "harm principle" is a good place to demarcate the lines of human liberty, but it's a minimum, not a maximum. The internet didn't exist during the time our founders lived, but yet it has come to redefine (and expand) the concept of liberty. So I think any relevant definition of human liberty cannot postulate itself as a rigid immutable law, exempt from expansion.

I'm not necessarily implying Paul does this in all cases. However, he views the right to be free from harm in a very narrow way. For him, treating people as second class citizens does not qualify as harm, deserving of legal protection. Rather, only a direct physical assault qualifies as harm in this context, which I find disturbing. He also views the commerce clause in a very narrow way. For example, he would likely oppose restoration of Glass Steagall. Instead, he'd like to get rid of FDIC deposit insurance. However, FDIC deposit insurance and Glass Steagall are clearly a proper exercise of commerce clause power. Therefore, the only valid (Constitutional) argument against these provisions and programs would be an economic argument, and I believe the empirical evidence discredits Austrian economic theory (in this case). While it is valid to say running deficits in perpetuity will lead to economic disaster, FDIC deposit insurance and Glass Steagall gave us over 60 years of stability in our financial system (prior to these New Deal programs, we had a major financial panic roughly every 12 years).

[-] 2 points by MonetizingDiscontent (1257) 12 years ago

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Repeal Indefinite Detention :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

(((Send a Letter Here))) https://secure.downsizedc.org/etp/detention/

In his last official act of 2011, President Barack Obama signed the massive bipartisan National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that included shocking detainee provisions, such as . . .

  • REQUIRED military detention of foreigners that are suspected of being terrorists

  • Military detention as the preferred OPTION for American terror suspects

  • No charges need to be filed, and no trials must be held

  • Prisoners to be held "until the end of hostilities"

These provisions can be more accurately described as "kidnapping" — which is a crime whether it's done by individuals, gangs, or States.

And what does "the end of hostilities" mean? Indefinitely, probably for life. After all, when does "terrorism" end?

Terrorism is indeed a serious crime. But just as with any other crime, many persons "suspected" of it are not guilty. The American, Constitutional presumption is innocent, until proven otherwise, via due process of law. Terrorism is an especially tricky judicial matter, because mere acquaintances of real terrorists, or people caught in the "wrong place at the wrong time" could be rounded up.

The fate of the innocent are of no concern to Congress or President Obama.

These kidnapping provisions violate the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. They also disregard your Fourth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendment rights. They even contravene Article III, Section 3, which deals with treason.

Not only that, but these kidnapping powers attack the foundation of who we are as a people. The British ancestors of the Founding Fathers enjoyed protection against arbitrary executive power since Magna Carta of 1215.

How can ANY of your rights and freedoms be secure if the President can, by whim, call me a "terrorist" and order troops to kidnap you because you were associated with me?

How can you enjoy the rights inherent in your humanity — life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness — if you can be "disappeared" in a federal gulag?

Two bills have been proposed that would restore SOME due process guarantees...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

H.R.3676 - To amend the detainee provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 to specifically state that United States citizens may not be detained against their will without all the rights of due process afforded to citizens in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution of the United States. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3676/text

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S.2003 - Due Process Guarantee Act of 2011

A bill to clarify that an authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority shall not authorize the detention without charge or trial of a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States and for other purposes. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s2003/text

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Human rights belong to all of us, not just Americans. Our rights are "pre-constitutional. They are not derived from the whim of any government, but naturally endowed to individuals since creation. But even if we rely entirely on the Constitution we find that, in this instance, our Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights protect "persons," not just American citizens (arguably, the Eighth does as well).

Please tell Congress to repeal the detainee provisions of the NDAA, and give ALL persons suspected of the crime of terrorism the right to process as afforded them in the Constitution.

Use the form at right to send your elected representatives a letter about this issue. It's easy! https://secure.downsizedc.org/etp/detention/

  • Your position will be counted by each Congressional office,

  • Will educate the Congressional staffer who reads it,

  • May be passed up the chain of command,

  • May receive a reply (many DC Downsizers get them). If you receive such a letter, please share it, at Comments@DownsizeDC.org.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 12 years ago

Hi Monetizing, Thank you for post. Best Regards, Nevada

[-] 3 points by MonetizingDiscontent (1257) 12 years ago

You reminded me about H.R. 3676 ...and I wasn't even aware of S 2003 until i saw your reply a little further down in this thread, so No -ThankYou- for that. Together it gets done =)

(((Its Always Good Seeing You Here Nevada1)))

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 12 years ago

Hi Monetizing, Always nice to see you as well. Found out about 3785 from Jaktober, then emailed US NV Rep Joe Heck and got email back from Joe's office with info about 3676. Then stumbled onto S2003. Every day has a learning experience. Everyone should see this thread. Let's win this thing. Best Regards, Nevada

[-] 2 points by MonetizingDiscontent (1257) 12 years ago

-Great Post- Signing it, and sending to friends. Keep spreading the word! Also: -Attention All States- Please Consider what New Hampshire is doing (Because other states can do their own thing)

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::The New Hampshire General Court will consider a::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

:::::::::::::::::Tenth Amendment Resolution during the 2012 legislative session::::::::::::::::::


-Jan 17th 2012-

HR25... http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2012/HR0025.html ...affirms state powers as delegated by the U.S. Constitution and the New Hampshire Constitution respectively, and calls for nullification of unconstitutional acts.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 12 years ago

Hi Jaktober, Also there is HR3676, which seems to be similar to HR3785. Same for S2003. Best Regards, Nevada

[-] 2 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

Awesome. Gonna grab my phone and make some calls soon (working a farm in Florida, hiding in the greenhouse from the rain, phone back at my tent, I am "Occupy the Woods")

[-] 2 points by Listof40 (233) 12 years ago

This is good info...

Senators and representatives often have many different pressures from many different places...

Some influences may be from internal pressure to vote along 'party lines', some from pressure from campaign contributers, pressure go along with questionable bills in order to earn favor for other pet initiatives, pressures from lobbyists or special interests which set up party or 'charity' events, pressure from various 'committees', there may be some pressure from threat of less coverage or negative media exposure, pressure from political organization that use media campaigns to pressure representatives to 'cave in' and compromise into bad policies, pressure from individuals within their social or political network, also there are various career pressures, pressure to spend policy time on fundraising, and other areas of influence (like general outside scheduling) that can affect how things are prioritized...

So it is very important that we as citizens and members of the public, are seen as a clear factor and to exert pressure on how our representives evaluate policy and bills in their decision process...

Our clear vocal advocation can actually help our representatives greatly, when they try to fend off questionable bills, because that public pressure can influence the internal political perceptions...

For example, look at some of the initiatives that Ralph Nader was involved in (clean air and water act, consumer protections, requirements that food ingredients are labeled, etc), or other attempts to improve the system, even maybe in the face of hostility or lobbying attempts against these...

We do not want our representatives to feel alone and to struggle against all kinds of political intimidations and hardships when trying to champion good policy, or difficulty when trying to oppose bad policies...

If we can provide support to our representatives when they propose or to get behind good policies, and also support when they try to back away from bad policies, it can be helpful to them when dealing with the political pressures and the political machinery...

Otherwise, the reality is that many questionable bills, that are not in the public's well-being or interest, may get pushed thru and into the system (and as has often happened in the past) without our vocal support and advocation and expectation of good policy and fair political process...

Thanks for the heads up!


[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 12 years ago

Everyone needs to see this thread. Very important.

[-] 1 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

Thanks! I agree!


[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 12 years ago

Hi Jaktober, Thank you for post. Will also begin contacting representatives. Best Regards, Nevada

[-] 1 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

Thanks Nevada! Good deal!

[-] 1 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

Anyone down? I'm assuming Sunday is an off-day, but tomorrow I'm calling my representatives to get a head start. Hopefully this will build leading to the Feb. 3rd Protest.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

So ask not what you can do for your party but what your party is doing to you?

Unite in common cause. Hate the things that are wrong in this world. Support each-other in making things right. This is where the healing will begin.

The Government of "The People" by "The People" for "The People"

We are the 99%. Take part in "The Peoples" Lobby.

Take action. See samples of how below.

192,815 signatures so far for Bernie Sanders petition as of 8:27am central time 01/22/2012


The petition to save abandoned houses has 16 signatures. We picked one up at around 11:07am 01/16/2012. Were just rolling right along.


Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.


Sierra Club has some good things to take part in as well. Set-up and ready for you to take part in. http://sierraclub.org/

[-] 1 points by jaktober (286) from Sonoma, CA 12 years ago

Yup yup. There are countless things to be doing to "occupy" yourself. Sierra Club is good. You can always help collect signatures for Propositions. Help collect signatures for ballot access. Build resources for candidates. Go door to door with said resources (handouts) and spread the good word.