Forum Post: SOLUTION: Publicly finance all elections AND ALL BUSINESSES
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 19, 2011, 8:58 p.m. EST by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom
(3360)
from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Capitalism should be replaced with democracy.
Just like we replaced monarchies, and its private ownership of government, with democracy so the means of law making are publicly owned and controlled for the equal benefit of everyone, we should replace capitalism, and its private ownership of the economy, with democracy so the means of survival are publicly owned and controlled for the equal benefit of everyone.
To make society fully democratic:
- All elections should be publicly financed
- All businesses should be publicly financed
- The total income produced by all businesses should be paid to all workers according to a plan that is democratically established through the collective bargaining process at the national level
- Differences in income should be limited to only what is necessary to get people to do difficult work and give their maximum effort
If we determined that paying top earners 4 times more than bottom earners is enough incentive and this income distribution plan was democratically approved, that would enable us to:
- Pay everyone from $115,000 to $460,000 per year (1)
That's enough to make everyone wealthy and eliminate nearly every social problem we have. And since we can automate half the jobs we do:
- We can pay these incomes for working part time (2)
All our wealth and progress has come from science, not capitalism. Capitalism just allocates that wealth unequally.
Despite the fact that we have the resources and technology to produce a near unlimited amount of anything, the thug system of capitalism, where you take as much as you can and to hell with everyone else, has left 97% of all workers earning a below average income (3), 50% of all wage earners making less than $26k, ONE HALF of all Americans near or below poverty, 18% underemployed, 52 million without health insurance, and 55% of all workers wasting their lives doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology (2).
Capitalism is a backwards, medieval, barbaric, cruel, uncivilized system that has no place in the modern, democratic world.
People deserve a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and they also deserve an economy of the people, by the people, and for the people.
The way to replace capitalism with democracy is with a general strike. Every worker in the economy, except for critical/emergency workers, goes on strike, and they don't go back to work until we have an economy where all businesses are publicly financed and total income is democratically allocated.
Raising the minimum income to $115k and reducing the work week to 20 hours is a deal that workers will find worth striking for.
This plan does not cause inflation. Read this comment to learn why: http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-534830
(1) http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-534847
(2) http://occupywallst.org/forum/are-you-rebels-or-revolutionaries-choose-revolutio/#comment-71303
(3) http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-532950
I like this post. In the end, we would need global participation.
bump bump bump
The average income in this country is $135,000 per year and 97% of workers make less than that amount. 97% of workers make a below-average income.
Total income:
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=51&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=2009&LastYear=2011&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid
Divided by total hours worked:
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=212&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=2008&LastYear=2010&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid
Gives you average income per hour worked. Multiply that by 40 hours, 52 weeks and you get the $135k average income per full time worker.
That number is usually referred to as worker productivity instead of average income. The BLS reports worker productivity:
http://www.bls.gov/ilc/intl_gdp_capita_gdp_hour.htm#chart04
That chart compares average incomes for different countries. Norway is number 1 by a large margin.
The BLS worker productivity is slightly lower than the average income number because they do not include the income you get from things like rent since you cannot increase the productivity of your rent.
So.. it would cost $500 to get my lawn cut... and $2500 to trim the hedges. Thats not bad if I am make $230K taking my turn managing a 'mart for 20 hours a week. See y'all at the beach!!!
What this would do, is allow for much more leisure activity, BOOSTING the economy more than any iphone,blackberry,goldman derivative EVER could!!! Who wants to learn to kite surf?
HOW THE $115k - $460k INCOMES WERE CALCULATED
Those income numbers are based on paying the top 2.5% of workers who give the highest performance or do the most difficult work $460k, paying the 12.3 million workers who do physically or mentally difficult work $230k (science, computers, engineering, medicine, construction, mining, or farming), and everyone else $115k.
If, for example, we voted on a plan to pay the top performers $1 million per year, then the bottom earners would drop to $100k.
In 2010, we produced $14.5 trillion in total income:
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=51&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=2010&LastYear=2010&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid
And we worked a total of 222,736 million hours:
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=212&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=2010&LastYear=2010&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid
$115k is $55.28 per hour
$230k is $110.57 per hour
$460k is $221.15 per hour
$14.5 trillion = ($221.15 (2.5% 222,736 million hours)) + ($110.57 (9.47% 222,736 million hours)) + ($55.28 (88.03% 222,736 million hours))
So the total income paid out in this plan is exactly equal to the total incomes paid out in 2010.
This plan does not cause inflation.
All we are doing is redistributing existing income. Redistributing existing income does not cause inflation. The increase in the minimum worker pay to $115k is fully offset by the decrease in the top earning worker pay to $460k.
We are not increasing the total income that is getting paid out. So on average, costs will remain the same. And since costs will remain the same, prices will also remain the same.
For example, if a company has just 2 workers and one was paid $200k and the other was paid $30k, their total costs would be $230k.
If they decided to reallocate income so that they were both paid $115k each, their costs would still remain $230k. Since their costs didn't change, their prices won't change.
Some worker incomes will go up. They will be offset by other worker incomes going down. Some goods and services might go up in price. They will be offset be others going down in price. But since total expenses remains the same, prices on average remain the same.
Since income allocation in this country is so unequal, out of every 100 workers, 97 will get a pay raise which will be fully offset by the 3 who will get a pay decrease.
In 2010, we paid out a total of $14.5 trillion in income. In the plan proposed here, we will also pay out a total of $14.5 trillion in income.
To learn how the incomes proposed here of $115k - $460k are calculated, read this comment:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-raise-the-minimum-wage-to-110000-per-year/#comment-339860
HAHAHA, no. Capitalism drives innovation. Some win, and some lose, and the losers are definitely going to complain. But its the best system.
Science, competition and compensation drive innovation, not capitalism.
Unless you make more than $135,000 per year, you are making a below average income and getting a raw deal in our current system.
Capitalism only works well for the top 3%. So you are fighting for the wrong team. Capitalism doesn't help you. You are being one of the gullible, useful idiots of the top 3%. You are their sheeple.
Competition and compensation are at the heart of capitalism... And science, especially in private sector applications is paid for by investors of the companies. Science just doesn't happen, it has to be paid for, and thats where capitalism comes in.
All income divided equally among workers? Come on, where does the money to innovate and expand come from then? If it was democratically voted on, all the whiney poor people would just ask for all of it, because obviously they don't know how to run the show, and the businesses would just become stagnent.
Also pay everyone $115k min a year? do you even understand economics? just giving everyone more money doesn't solve a damn thing. The poor are poor for a reason. Kind of like when a poor person loses the lottery, they blow it all on stupid shit. And just raising minimum wage just causes major inflation anyways.
Also as far as you saying the top dogs shouldn't be paid more than 4x the lowest worker. Why? Someone at the top worked hard to get there, handles way more responsibility than others, and their choices can drastically sway a company. And there are only a few of them. So paying them large chunks of change doesn't almost nothing to the bottom line. Where increasing the pay of 1000's or 10s of 1000's of workers can really start to cut into profit margins.
I'm not gullible. I just know how capitalism works so I can use it to my advantage, and I dont live in fucking lala world like everyone else on this website where you think that everyone can be equal and be happy. Its just not how the world works.
Capitalism, drives this nation, the world economy, innovation, science, and technology, if you can't acknowledge that, you're probably just on the losing end of the spectrum, and rather complain instead of doing something to get on top. Save more than you spend, buy stock wisely, have a diverse portfolio to be secure. It can be done, you just have the drive to do it. If you can't thats on you.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of survival where you can take as much income as possible and who cares if there is little left over for everyone else.
You don't need capitalism in order to have competition or to pay people to work or to pay scientists to invent.
If income was paid out equally it would amount to $135k which is likely more than 4 times what you make.
But I believe people who work physically or mentally difficult jobs should get paid more and some performance based jobs should get paid more. That is why I give an example of paying from $115k to $460k in this post.
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"just giving everyone more money doesn't solve a damn thing. The poor are poor for a reason. Kind of like when a poor person loses the lottery, they blow it all on stupid shit."
The amount of stupidity in this comment must rival the stupidity that you think poor people have. You are ignorant to say the least.
You think the difference between Trump and some poor kid out of the ghetto is that Trump isn't dumb like kids in the ghetto? You don't think it had anything to do with Trump getting $50 million from his father?
Speaking personally, I was climbing in the corporate world, but had to leave due to my personal morals. Every step up the ladder requires one to be more cut throat and sacrifice a part of yourself in the name of profit. There is a reason that psychopaths are relentlessly drawn into top corporate positions.
Let's see innovation..
How about investments in the space race. If innovation is completely dependent on money why were the soviets able to compete with us for so long?
Studies have shown that throwing money at people to be innovative, that is creating an external motivator impedes their creativity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
And countries with less income inequality are MORE innovative
http://www.wac6.com/.a/6a01156e3d83cb970c0120a7c0a4f6970b-800wi
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence
Government has no problem wasting tremendous amounts of money on for-profit wars and bailouts. Yet they count every penny that goes towards research and development, green sustainability, conservation, education, and other community projects.
People aren't just complaining for the hell of it. The government is legally concentrating resources (not simply money) in the hands of a few corporations and banks. They are legally allowing dirty unethical practices to control the market.
So while I do agree with your belief that for-profit corporations shouldn't be forced to pay their workers equally, simply supporting not-for-profit organizations and starting up local transition towns away from oil will not solve our issues if the government (in addition to corporations) fight these groups every step of the way.
And businesses themselves 'should' lose profits if it benefits the people/consumers/stakeholders. They should exist to provide a need and to raise the quality of life for those they serve. Corporations are not people yet, their supporters treat them as such. The same applies to the object so many regard as sacred, money. A better standard of living and higher quality of life is the goal, not hoarding.
Thank you
You're welcome. There is a reason we are a republic democracy, and that we are a capitalist nation. not everyone is meant to rule, and they definitely shouldn't. There is a reason the poor are poor, and not owners of corporations, and that not everyone can be a politician. Everyone has the chance to be equal; but are we in ability, intelligence, and drive? Not even close.
Also as its been mentioned before. the general public is far from capable of making business decisions.
We have division of labor. There is nothing in this post that says everyone will run a business. Only people who are capable of running a business will run a business.
The morons in this country are not capable of running business, sorry. Hence the 95% failure rate of businesses by those who actually think they are qualified.
I support the movement, but posts like these are painful to read.
We have division of labor. There is nothing in this post that says everyone will run a business. Only people who are capable of running a business will run a business.
Well, you are saying I should pay my people more than I made.
You're uneducated, and are hurting the movements credibility. You are only appealing to the uneducated, and hence hurting our chances of recruiting the smart and frustrated.
Please stop.
We don't need your ghetto business where you can't even afford employees. If you want an economy where you make a significantly below average income, move to Mexico. Please stop advocating for more worker poverty. You are hurting our chance at recruiting workers who want an average wage.
No shit. I have nothing against people who want decent wages. Im saying I didnt make 135,000 last year, so how the fuck am I suppose to pay that?
So now 50,000 is a mexico economy.
I don't understand your logic. You want to continue with an economy where you can't even make an average wage and you have to assume financial risk for your business? That makes no sense.
What is your definition of an average wage. Lets start there.
And every business move has financial risk. Well, unless you get a bailout :)
Read this comment to see how average is computed and to verify the numbers:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-532950
Side note- when you artificiually inflate the average wage- 135,000 now buys you what 25,000 did.
I cant even believe Im having this conversation.
The average income was not artificially inflated!! Did you read the comment? The average I cite is based on the numbers published by the BEA. I did not use inflated numbers!
So this plan does not cause inflation.
All we are doing is redistributing existing income. Redistributing existing income does not cause inflation. The increase in the minimum worker pay to $115k is fully offset by the decrease in the top earning worker pay to $460k.
Read this comment for more info:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-534830
Not to mention the sheer massive volume of new business that would occur. This whole idea is pegged on right NOW. But right NOW would be much different a month after this was started. The economy would grow SOO MUCH, it would be AWESOME, this alone would allow for an extra 2-10 million new cars being sold in the first year, those profits would only need to be used to hire new employees and the $$ leftover because there would be $$ leftover can go to subsidizing gasoline AND research and developement for unlimited energy.
ALL sectors would profit/benefit and EVERYTHING would be affordable. Take medicine for example, the costs would not need to go up 1%, as the SAME AMOUNT of medicine would be performed (ok, maybe a 1% bump with people getting stuff taken care of that weren't able to before, but thats a GOOD thing). Then, all the excess $$ the health care industry makes can go to R&D which would further REDUCE costs.
No one that runs business will sign up. Who in their right mind, that runs a landscaping company, is going to pay their employees more than they make?
And if you think there is a magical way to control every aspect of every business in a global community....I was right- You arent helping us, you're hurting us!
Logic like this is terrifying, because some nut like you could actually get people on board with this if the you have the right marketing mix.
You are not getting it. Why would you want an economy where you have to assume the financial risk of a landscaping business and then earn a below-average income? That's not a good deal. You are not very good with business. The idea is to make the most income for the least risk.
Earning a minimum of $115k and assuming no financial risk is a much better deal.
Service jobs hr rate would go UP, but it would not matter as the people whose yard you are taking care of have the $$$. $250 to cut the grass every week isnt bad if im making $250K, YOU would make 250K too and the guys working for you $135K, you would be subsidized from the profits of mega-corps in order to pay the extra wages to yourself and your people. AND you would only need to work 20hr weeks, which would mean that you can teach someone else how to run a business and make 250K AND have employees.
Earning 3million with little risk is even better.
We don't produce enough income to pay everyone $3 million for working. But we do produce enough income to pay everyone from $115k to $460k which is enough to give everyone a very high standard of living and solve nearly every social problem we have. Advocating anything less than that is moronic.
Thinking you can get those that are in business to agree to this is even more moronic
Businesses where the owners are not making over 400+K would all go for it, the rest would be forced to go for it or go out of business, no big deal
No they wouldnt, because they know the convaluted mess that this would create.
The plan is not to appeal to owners. Of course they won't go for this. They currently rule the world. They don't want to give that up.
The plan is to appeal to workers. 97% would get an increase in pay. They control the economy. If they went on strike, they can get any deal they want. Raising the minimum income to $115k and reducing the work week to 20 hours is a deal that workers will find worth striking for. They would strike until we replaced capitalism with democracy.
And they would also lose their homes, create massive chaos, etc.
People care about one thing- taking care of their kids.
How do you replace an economic system (capitalism) with a political system (democracy). Actually no one lives in a democracy. Basically everyone lives in a republic or an oligarcy. We live in an oligarcy now. It was supposed to be a republic.
Oh, by the way, if you try to take over my business you may get the business end of a shot gun.
"How do you replace an economic system (capitalism) with a political system"
Economy is short for political economy. An economy is political. A democracy means power rests with everyone equally. So a democratic economy means there will no longer be a privileged class of owners, just like the government is not privately owned.
"if you try to take over my business you may get the business end of a shot gun"
Nobody wants your business. And you probably won't want it either after you can no longer get workers for it.
My economies should not be dictated by political decisions. I agree with the gun take. Go back to your naive dream land.
There will always be winners and losers, regardless of hte species. Best to encourage all to succeed, rather than tell them all they have no shot.
Unless you make more than $135,000 per year, you are making a below average income and getting a raw deal in our current system.
Capitalism only works well for the top 3%. So you are fighting for the wrong team. Capitalism doesn't help you. You are being one of the gullible, useful idiots of the top 3%. You are their sheeple.
How would you know about capitalism? We have not had capitalism in this country or in the world ever. What we have now is mercantilism, corporatism and fascism. Why don't we give freemarket real capitalism a chance before we go back to the communism that brought russia and eastern europe down.
Communism is a stateless and moneyless society. I don't advocate communism. And if by capitalism you mean a completely unregulated market where the winner takes all and most don't have healthcare and 80% of seniors are destitute and snake oil salesmen rule the day, no thanks.
Morons like you are hurting the movement. Please stop typing this wild nonsense.
Wanting an economy where more than 3% of workers earn an average income is nonsense? lol
So 80,000 a year isnt good enough for you? Im really hoping/thinking this is a joke post...
You just pulled that $80k out of a hat. Where did you get that number from? The vast majority of workers do not make anywhere near $80k. 50% of wage earners make less than $26k.
$80k is still $55k below average. The average worker should make close to an average income. The average income is $135k, not $80k. And since we can automate 55% of our jobs with existing technology, they should make that $135k working part time. Our current economy is so incredibly backwards.
You are forgetting the human factor in this....
I don't know what you mean.
This is all about the human factor. Human beings deserve the dignity of having a job that pays them enough to maximize their standard of living.
And only the other day you guys were complaining about Wall St bailouts. Please decide, what exactly do you want? And think over it. Use your brains
Economic justice:
Allow all people to freely exchange goods, services or monetary units that they wish to give up, for goods, services and monetary units which they wish to acquire, as long as they are not unfairly affecting anyone else. Both parties are happy, so is everyone else.
the problem with OPs like this is the fundamental ignorance of economics and human nature. with this system ( I will pretend this is avtually viable)' innovation will end. you keep repeating the mantra that $460000 is the threshhold that will spur innovation but you have zero proof. NONE. you just say it. the difference between $460k and $135k is simply not enough. we have to import skilled and educated labor today, because even with a multiplier today of 10, 20 or 50 times, we cannot get people to strive for challenging rigorous degrees like physics. the US offers 65000 H1b visas for highly trained labor, and we could fill 3 times that many if there snt aquota. if there are millions of American workers making $26000 or less, why arent they motivated to become highly skilled and displace those 1000s of foreign trained talent? there is a labor SHORTAGE in North Dakota, n oil field worker can earn $75000 to $150000 and yet no one in America wants those highly paid jobs.
For-profit organizations will not follow this idea.
You'd have to appeal to not-for-profit organizations or transition existing organizations into not-for-profits. Otherwise they WILL find loopholes around whatever limitations are placed on them.
And most of all, the public must support not-for-profits.
example: http://vimeo.com/8029815
The plan is not to appeal to non profit owners or for profit owners. The plan is to appeal to workers. 97% would get an increase in pay. They control the economy. If they went on strike, they can get any deal they want. Raising the minimum income to $115k and reducing the work week to 20 hours is a deal that workers will find worth striking for.
The question is where is this income coming from.
Simply printing more money will make the existing problems worse. Leaving the Federal Reserve, IRS, and other government agencies in the hands of the corporate elite or worse (psychopaths lacking compassion) will also leave the military, law, police enforcement, and primary economic functions in the hands of these individuals.
We live in a Pathocracy and any reforms to the economic and political functions of society will be co-opted if people don't recognize the very real threat of a psychopathic leadership.
I am obviously not saying we should print money. That would be pointless.
In 2010, we paid out a total of $14.5 trillion in income which is enough to pay every worker from $115k to $460k if we limited top earners to $460k. Read this comment for more info:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/solution-publicly-finance-all-elections-and-all-bu/#comment-534847
Existing powers would do everything in their power to create loopholes to such a policy.
How would this be followed and enforced?
The same way it enforces capitalism and gets everyone to follow capitalism's rules.
That's not working out too well right now..
Huh? The status quo hasn't gone anywhere. Where has the economy gone away from capitalism?
Lobby groups, regulation committees ignoring blatant acts of fraud, money in politics, ignoring anti-trust laws, environmental disasters leading to small penalties, economic hitmen, a privatized police force, and for-profit wars.
The 'rules' of society are meant to maintain class divisions and are enforced unequally. Wealth continues to be concentrated in the hands of very few companies and individuals.
Wealthy individuals will not willingly give away their wealth, the legal/political structures that benefit from them will not easily cooperate, and pathocrats would rather destroy everything than give up their power.
Again, the problem is people do not see the FACT that our society is a pathocracy and unempathic/uncompassionate psychopaths don't care for the suffering of people. They are cunning and will either fight your reforms outright or co-opt any such system changes to obtain and abuse power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91wuk_mWEYQ
This is a pipe dream so keep on smokin'
Unless you make more than $135,000 per year, you are making a below average income and getting a raw deal in our current system.
Capitalism only works well for the top 3%. So you are fighting for the wrong team. Capitalism doesn't help you. You are being one of the gullible, sheeple, useful idiots of the top 3%.
This is the dumbest post Ive ever seen
Wanting an economy that only works well for 3% of workers is the dumbest comment I have ever seen.
....