Forum Post: Socialism, Marxism and why we need to know more about them
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 13, 2011, 12:41 a.m. EST by Rahel
(5)
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Any new idea has it's roots in old ideas otherwise it is rootless, it is loose and unreliable. Socialists were the ones who first saw the holes in capitalism and Marx was the first one who could see the limitations and corruptness of it and could suggest an alternative using a scientific approach. Capitalist leaders have tried hard to create an ugly and outdated image of Socialism and Marxism in the mind of people so that even if they didn't like capitalism they do not find a way to out of it. Many people throughout the history of mankind have talked about equality and brotherhood and freedom but the problem has always been how to find a system that can provide these. Marx discovered that if people do not get equal opportunities, they can not have true democracy. When wealth is accumulated in the hands of a few people they can brainwash others and make them feel that they are deciding for themselves. Democracy is an illusion in capitalist system because propaganda can color human perception. First, the main tools of production should belong to the masses, then equality, brotherhood, democracy and all other beautiful words will have some meaning. This is the essence of Marxism. Marxism is not a religion. Neither Marx nor Engels claimed that they have found all the answers. They talked about some basic principles and were aware of the fact that things are going to change and the future challenges should be addressed by new minds.
I am tired of idiots calling Nazis socialist and a left wing movement when historians and in complete agreement Fascism (thus Nazis) was a right wing movement. Most people can't define socialism and fascism tbh.
amen brother. whats funny is even the fascists said that their movement was right-wing, in the Doctrine of Fascism.
No, forget about socialism and communism. What we need is reform. The system created by the founders of this country is still revolutionary, it just doesn't exist anymore. The corporate charter is the reason. We need to focus on the corporate charter, because if you actually read it you we see that it is just organized crime enshrouded in Law!
Are there examples of socialism ever succeeding? What is Marxism about anyways? All property belongs to like a central government? People who don’t work or try hard get compensated equally? It doesn’t sound good. Could you suggest some reading material, I am sincerely interested.
Sweden, Denmark, Norway - socialist countries with the highest standard of living in the world! But I say forget about socialism because Americans have been to propogandized to even say the word. Democracy is fine, only we don't have it - the reason being the corporate charter, an act so counter to democracy that it's ludicrous to think we could have democracy and corporations at the same time. The corporations are what we need to fight!
Norway, Sweden, and Denmark have a high standard of living, Who puts out this information anyway? Also have you ever talked to a Scandinavian personally, I have. Any of them with money are sending their kids to Hong Kong for schooling. And they arn't talking about the awesomeness of their societies, they talk about stuff like 62% corporate taxes and still having poor health care and having to send their kids to capitalist bastions like hong kong for school.
If you mean the 1% in those countries, you are right. They have the 1% in check. The average citizen in those countries enjoy a good standard of living with excellent health care. By the way, we know who you guys really are.
You obviously have some misconceptions. Scandinavia is extremely expensive, especially for housing. Don't believe it, go look online at any real estate for sale and rent site. Not that there aren't great things about these countries, but most of that is leftover from days gone by when these countries were homogeneous cultures. Drastic changes have occurred in the past 20 years, and not for the good.
Yes, that is true, but they still have, by every measurable statistic a higher overall standard of living that we have had since the 1970s. We now bring up the rear, behind practicallt every modern industrialized nation. And they are socialist. Furthermore they are the most civilized societys in the western world, when it comes to the abscence of crime.
I talked to a few regular swedes, one guy told me he waited 2 days for medical treatment for a fractured sternum. I guess that's good in your book, or the one you been reading. but I got my information right from the horses mouth. And before you go spouting any more crap about socialized medicine to people you obviously consider foolish I'll remind you of something you missed in your training, America is next to Canada, We know lots of Canadians and therefore a lot about socialized medicine. Looks like its back to propaganda school for you comrade!
Yeah, the Scadinavians are poor, and Canada's got bad medical care. I guess facts don't have any effect at all on the "Ideas" that go through your head.
Dude Canada has Shit for medical service, just ask a Canadian. if you want FACTS. or go talk to a Scandinavian. Didn't your mama ever tell you " dont believe everything you read"...
What, in your seemless combination of arrogance and ignorance, makes you think I don't know any Scandanavians or Canadians? Don't bother answering. You're obviously one of those people who they know everything without ever having bothered to learn anything.
BTW, how come no talk about the Chinese or Cuban socialists?
I'm just saying, I know PEOPLE from Canada and I met A few Guys from Sweden. the Canadians always say their health care system sucks and the Swedes I just met a few weeks ago could not stop reiterating how their systems crush any new business that try to come to market. So stop trying to blow your commie socialist smoke up my hole, Because I don't need to learn anything about what your selling because I know real people that just tell me directly.
Odd, I border Windsor, not one Canadian I know would think about trading their health care system for ours. You need some FACTS yourself.
YEA, but did you talk with an actual person who lives in Canada?
Why yes I do. Like, half of my family that are Canadian citizens, oh, and maybe those friends I still have from, I don't know, maybe making friends over there considering it is a 15 minute drive from my house and another 45 minute drive to family cottages off Lake St. Clair.
I know someone who lives in Demark and i can confirm that this is right. She has a special needs child and the waiting periods for his health care are threatening his health. She's also said her taxes keep going up while services are worse than ever. They're even taxing any foods with fat in them, now! Insane.
Staggering. Socialism exists to serve the LEADERS of the collective. by keeping the workers working so they never notice what the heck is going on around them.
Why do all innovations take place here? Do creative people tend to move to the US?
Yes. People are more open to change in US. Their history is short and their benefits from change have been important.
CIA Fact Book says Sweden, Denmark and Norway are all a "constitutional monarchy."
Well when we need the CIA we'll ask for them.
So which are they? Or are they the same thing.
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Don't buy into Marxism.... Socialism and Welfare "Equality" will cripple your self esteem... Think about it... If you could get the same as the next guy why in the hell would anyone want to become a doctor or a lawyer??? THINK ABOUT IT... It will cripple our society...
I am a doctor and I have not become a doctor because of money. It all depends on your value system.What do you think the society where people become doctors to get more money, has to offer to it's people?!!
I have a blog post on Salon.com called "Pro-Communist Republicans". In it I point out some of the philosophical problems with Marxism. Perhaps it will help. Go to: http://open.salon.com/blog/atman
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Everything can be understood in relativity. China , Russia, Cuba and some other countries tried to implement Marx's ideas to some extent and that little bit they tried was helpful to people of those societies. The condition of masses in China is better than in India.( This is what I have seen with my own eyes). The reason I make this comparison is that these two countries are comparable you can not compare Russia with USA because of what these countries inherited after world war. Overall we have to see things in comparison. I do not say that Marx's ideas have been experimented successfully in any society so far but whatever has been tried also has had it's advantages. when we talk about any idea we should see how scientific the idea is and that doesn't necessarily mean that first we should find an example for it. We know that human beings can not survive on Mars but we do not have an example of a person who went to Mars and could not survive.
There is more freedom in India. There is also corruption.
China is the biggest capitalist country in the world where government influence is a commodity. A true tribute to Marx, his fabulous system went full circle in China in less than 50 years. PEOPLE are missing a very important point. Who gave chairman Mao all the funding needed for his piss poor farmers to buy guns and ammo and machines to build themselves into an army to defeat the western backed KMT?? Also Who by the way killed more Chinese than the KMT and The Japanese combined. let me give you all a clue: Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws.- Mayer Amschel Rothschild(1744-1812)
Than why has quality of life in every socialist country always been lower than in 1940's US?
What a comparison!! Do you have any idea what the leaders of socialist societies inherited after war? Is what they had comparable with what US had?! More over please, once in your life look without the glasses this biased system has put on your face, I am talking about ideas. You have to discuss the idea and not jump into conclusions. The fact that human beings can not survive on Mars can not be rejected because we do not know a person who went to Mars and could not survive!
Why don't you volunteer to be the first to go to mars, then report back. maan where do these people come from?
Well, let's take a look at what the citizens of socialism got them before the war. They got brainwashed be the rich and powerful elites and tricked into trying to take over the world through a bloody war. Didn't help them a bit. Bottom line, is that socialism, just as capitalism, cannot prevent the powerful from abusing their power. The people must be unwilling to accept their power grabs. Doesn't really matter what system of government, even in anarchy (such as Afghanistan after the Russian retreat, was anarchy, but quickly became ruled and abused by the most powerful group in the region, the Taliban.)
And I don't use preconceived notions. I'll have you know I used to be a neoconservative and now I support the OWS movement.
Can't you be conservitive and still support OWS though?
I am. Just not a neoconservative. I think most Neocons shy away from these types of movements.
Good video on non-agression principel http://youtu.be/RHe4OQ4bY4o
The American Dream only exists if Capitalism is allowed to thrive... I'm sorry but people need to take personal responsibility for their decisions. For example... I understand that many of the OWS crowd are upset because of student loans and unable to gain employment. Well how many of you did any research about the jobs market before picking you major in college? The majority of unemployed people with college degrees have social science and B.A degrees. People with B.S degrees and have skills in math and science are generally doing much better. Take responsibility for your decisions.
"Teach a man to fish he will never go hungry... Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day"
Socialism and Welfare cripple people... Have some self dignity...
What about a National television boycott the week of Thanksgiving? You could cut off political campaigning, hurt corporations, and help the environment all at once. This would send a message as to who's really in control and who really drives the market at the end of the day. You have the power to get this off the ground, consider it.
Succesful prosperous and free countries like Russia and China should be examples for us :)
Or you could show us your utopia :)
Are you serious? And how did you come up with that idea?
From how people seem to think marxism is a good idea.
Oh yeah? How many people is that? What countries currently use marxism? What examples do you have? What life experiences do you have? Tell me about yourself... What is your background?
you have to think that if the government being corrupt is the problem, then the one thing its practical and advisable NOT to do is to give the government more power.
To both China777friends and TeaParty: You guys are fantastic!
You have to innovate, invent, make products, excellent service, the concept of freedom.
there are no examples of any real world socialist or communism. There is no reason to study dead ideology. systems theory and game theory and sociology are the subjects to study, not socialism or marxism. olddeaddeaddead ideologies are not relevant to new problems or meaningful scholarship, we need SCIENCE not DEADEADEAD ideology.
In short. please do not post any more marxism or socialism thread or links or posts. we are not interested, we are not going to change our minds on this , and you are trolling and spamming.
If you want to see such ideas get meaningful recognition, then join the fight for a wiki and we can get stuff organized there and give you all an area to call your own. until then- you are adding off topic noise to the scrawl, and there is zero chance we are going to do anything with deadeadeadead ideology.
we do not have a capitalist system we have a corporate oligarchy.
gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
Corporate oligarchy; an economic and political system, in which investment and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth, is made and maintained chiefly by a shadow government, which uses other systems such as capitalism or democracy as a front and mask to cover over the simple truth. Capitalism= private ownership Corporate oligarchy= state ownership. In this, corporate oligarchy is actually closer to socialism and communism than it actually is to capitalism.
gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 7 minutes ago
the standard way. capital. ism.
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
sounds like our system until you stop and consider that in fact the corporate oligarchy constitutes a supra legal shadow government, and so the vast majority of all holdings and resources and money is actually owned by that shadow government.
Capitalism in the real sense by comparison would be far better, because at least those things would be held by private citizens instead of a shadow government.
capitalism never existed. corporate oligarchy make believing capitalism like little girls make believing in tea is not capitalism.
you can't remove what does not exist. without your super villain, your super hero is just an old bearded dead man with bright red underwear.
corporate oligarchies need to expand. true form capitalism is far more stable and steady state.
Marxism can analyze a theoretical system which has never existed all it likes.
Its a stupid and pointless game. Since capitalism does not exist, marxism is accidentally just propping up capitalism the con scam by being the convenient foil and false critique.
Any promotion of marxism is thus actually a promotion of " capitalism"- the corporate oligarchy con scam.
you are a dupe and a pawn and a tool, until you wake up.
"Zivot 1 points 15 hours ago He is not talking of the warped governments of the past or present who choose to call themselves socialists. How many people have been killed by our own nation? What he is bringing up is not that we need a new political system ruled by a dictator, which is what those countries had/have, but that we need to not buy into the idea that capitalism is the only option in a democratic society. Read the ideas of Marx, Engels, Zizek. Open your mind. This was not a discussion opened on politics, but economics."
For some reason, the reply button won't let me reply directly, so I must post this here. I am afraid that I do know a great deal about Socialism and I know for a fact that the Communists have hid behind democracy before. The term Soviet Socialist actually refers to a democratic movement that the Communists, betrayed and murdered off, within twenty four hours of coming to power. The Communists were not content to murder the pro-democracy Socialists, they actually pretended to be pro democracy Soviet Socialists. The Soviet Union, was not a Soviet Union, at all, but a Communist mass murdering hell hole. Would anyone suggest that we give the Nazis, National Socialists, a second look? I would not. I have read Marx and I have read Lenin and in the end, why would you or anyone, in good conscience, talk about an open mind, when you want to impose totalitarianism, slavery and mass murder on the United States?
If the Communists seek to overthrow the US Government and I think some of your numbskull followers do, just know that you will fail and I hope the whole lot of the traitors to our Nation end up in prison for the remainder of their natural born lives. I stand by the United States of American. I am loyal to our Constitution, I respect the authority of our Government, the potential of our people and the ability of our market system and Government to restore the greatness of the USA. I will never stand behind any movement that seeks to impose Marxism or Socialism, upon the USA. While you work on spreading the single greatest evil this World has ever known, I am going to work on getting CEOs, economists, and politicians to support the revitalization of our Nation; through a process that respects the laws and institutions of our Nation State, that does not depend on totalitarianism, slavery or genocide. MJ Morrow
"Zivot 1 points 15 hours ago He is not talking of the warped governments of the past or present who choose to call themselves socialists. How many people have been killed by our own nation? What he is bringing up is not that we need a new political system ruled by a dictator, which is what those countries had/have, but that we need to not buy into the idea that capitalism is the only option in a democratic society. Read the ideas of Marx, Engels, Zizek. Open your mind. This was not a discussion opened on politics, but economics."
For some reason, the reply button won't let me reply directly, so I must post this here. I am afraid that I do know a great deal about Socialism and I know for a fact that the Communists have hid behind democracy before. The term Soviet Socialist actually refers to a democratic movement that the Communists, betrayed and murdered off, within twenty four hours of coming to power. The Communists were not content to murder the pro-democracy Socialists, they actually pretended to be pro democracy Soviet Socialists. The Soviet Union, was not a Soviet Union, at all, but a Communist mass murdering hell hole. Would anyone suggest that we give the Nazis, National Socialists, a second look? I would not. I have read Marx and I have read Lenin and in the end, why would you or anyone, in good conscience, talk about an open mind, when you want to impose totalitarianism, slavery and mass murder on the United States?
If the Communists seek to overthrow the US Government and I think some of your numbskull followers do, just know that you will fail and I hope the whole lot the traitors to our Nation end up in prison for the remainder of their natural born lives. I stand by the United States of American. I am loyal to our Constitution, I respect the authority of our Government, the potential of our people and the ability of our market system and Government to restore the greatness of the USA. I will never stand behind any movement that seeks to impose Marxism or Socialism, upon the USA. While you work on spreading the single greatest evil this World has ever known, I am going to work on getting CEOs, economists, and politicians to support the revitalization of our Nation; through a process that respects the laws and institutions of our Nation State, that does not depend on totalitarianism, slavery or genocide. MJ Morrow
Between 85 million and 100 million people were killed under Socialist regimes. What next, National Socialism? Please, we have a Nation State, a Republic, in need of some financial and industrial reinvention, not 1984. Frankly, I find you scary and I hope you make your way onto a watch list. If you support a movement that killed more people in one century, than all other political movements in recorded human history, put together, you are sick, crazy or outright f-ing evil. How about suppoting campaign finance reform or something practical, that does not involve invoking the greatest single evil that humans have faced, outside of NAZISM? You would have society bring back slavery and genocide; since both were practiced, in the 20th century, in the Soviet Union? Socialism is the most extreme form of elitist oppression, I can imagine and it has no place in a Democratic Rrepublic. If you want that manner of government, why do you not appeal to North Korea or the P.R.C. for citizenship? MJ Morrow
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Exactly, which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive strategy, and related candidate, that implements all our demands at the same time, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to be 1 of 100,000 people needed to support a Presidential Candidate – such as myself or another you'd like to draft – at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Yes finally a choice. I can't work and don't want to. Why can't someone do my work for me. True brothers.
All you have to do is move to socialist Cuba and everyone will produce the same income... $400 a year. Except the rulers. But there is EQUALITY. merciful and free equality.
America is not built on equality... Its called the American Dream... If you want to succeed you need to work harder than the next guy... You would have us make everything equal and then no one would have ambition to better their situation... THINK ABOUT IT.... Socialism and welfare cripple people... Trust me... I grew up on a Native American reservation and that is a prime example of how Welfare cripples people... Have some self dignity.
Hello sir, I just gave you a thumbs up. I was being a bit of a troll, sarcastic. I realize there isn't equality in Cuba or any society, especially Socialism, from anarchy on down the line. Cheers
The production tools can not belong to the masses but to the bureaucracy. The real solution is here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/main-demand/
I have a blog post on Salon.com called "Pro-Communist Republicans". In it I point out some of the philosophical problems with Marxism. Perhaps it will help. Go to: http://open.salon.com/blog/atman