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Forum Post: Socialism and scapegoating the 1% are both failing spectacularly in Venezuela

Posted 8 years ago on Nov. 24, 2013, 1:12 p.m. EST by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The value of Venezuela's currency, the Bolivar, has been plummeting:

Chart showing the decline in value of Venezuela's local currency, the Bolivar.

The implied annual inflation rate in Venezuela is actually now in the triple digits, coming in at a whopping 283%, as shown in the chart below.

Chart showing Venezuela's skyrocketing annual inflation.

The implied monthly inflation rate is now at 54% per month, above the hyperinflation threshold of 50% per month. Venezuela is now the world's 60th example of hyperinflation.

Chart showing Venezuela's monthly inflation rate, which has now reached hyperinflation levels.

Like any socialist regime, the Venezuelan government's solution to this problem is to simply outlaw inflation. To make inflation illegal.

How do you make inflation illegal? They're using an increasing number of tactics. First, they have an "official" exchange rate between the dollar and the Bolivar, and it's illegal to exchange dollars for Bolivars at a rate based on the true value of the Bolivar. Part of the enforcement of the government's currency-exchange controls is to try to prevent people from learning the true value of the Bolivar, known as the "black-market" exchange rate. Last week, for example, they demanded that Twitter block tweeters who announce the black-market rate. People were using the URL shortener bit.ly to bypass the government's Internet censorship, so they blocked all of bit.ly last week. (Google Translate URL for that last citation for y'all who don't hablasteis Español.) (Also take a look at this, if you want to see into the mind of a "Freedom Fries!" chauvinist in Venezuela. [Google Translate])

But trying to maintain the fiction that there is no inflation isn't working. Venezuela's economy is crumbling, and the country is not self-sufficient in most areas of agriculture. They have to import two-thirds of their food needs, and more than half of their consumer goods. Those imports must be purchased in dollars, not Bolivars with a fictional value that only applies within Venezuela. That means that for any business to stay afloat, they have to price goods based on their value in dollars. So the prices on consumer goods in Bolivars appears to be skyrocketing, because the value of the Bolivar is plummeting.

The Venezuelan government's response has been to blame the business owners for "usury", for pricing goods based on their actual cost. For not maintaining the fiction that there is no inflation. Instead of attempting to address their inflation, they're burying their heads in the sand and pretending that there really is no inflation. They're trying to control prices, just like during the New Deal, and the gasoline crisis in the 70s. Fixing prices at below market prices prevents the market from doing its job, and the result is always shortages. In the last year, Venezuela has had shortages of butter, sugar, flour, toilet paper, nearly every consumer good. The government's response has been rationing. The people's response has been natural: hoarding. Just like with gasoline in the 70s in the US. The country is plagued by crippling blackouts due to a crumbling infrastructure, that further inhibit economic growth. Especially for the technology sector, like my engineer.

They need a scapegoat, so they're blaming the "hoarders". And increasingly they're also also scapegoating business owners for waging an "economic war" against the government. On Tuesday, President Maduro was granted decree powers to fight this war. We had a War On Drugs and a War On Terror. Venezuela is fighting a war against its own economy. The country now has no parliament and no supreme court to put checks on the insane economic policy.

Last weekend, to buy votes ahead of the upcoming local elections, President Maduro ordered the largest electronics retail chain in Venezuela to lower its prices to reflect the fictional official exchange rate. The government sent troops to enforce "fair" prices. He told the people to "leave nothing on the shelves".

We will guarantee everyone has a plasma television. -- Veneuelan President Nicholas Maduro

This was the result:

Twitter photo of a ransacked big-box electronics store

Government-sponsored looting:

Video of crazed anti-capitalist consumers ransaking a big-box electronics store

After that, the government expanded its economic war, targeting textiles, shoe stores, toy stores, hardware stores and automobiles. Soon after that, Maduro announced a legal limit on the profit that a business can make, of 30%. The limit is based on the fictional value of the Bolivar that does not account for inflation, and so that means that doing business is now illegal in Venezuela.

Video of a neighborhood store getting looted

Socialism in action

The evil 1% getting punished

State-sponsored looting of a small, local bodega

The evil upper class getting punished

Obviously, nobody is going to import electronics after what happened last week. Nobody is going to import shoes. Toys. Textiles. Hardware. Automobiles. Venezuela will soon be like Cuba, where people still drive cars that were built in the 1950s. Fidel Castro also waged an economic war against its own private sector. We all know how that turned out.

But wait -- the benevolent socialist regime is looking out for the people. Everybody deserves a plasma TV, right? Venezuela is entering into a joint venture with Samsung to build television factories in Venezuela. They're going to also need to build a lot of shoe factories, toy factories, hardware factories, textile mills, automobile factories, and more. Very quickly. But the government's cash reserves are down to $1.2 billion in liquid cash. So they're selling gold to Goldman Sachs, who will pay in dollars.

You can't simply outlaw inflation. We're going to see exactly why soon, as Venezuela slips into an economic depression. And we're also seeing a lesson on the Occupy-Wall-Street fallacy of scapegoating the "Bourgeoisie" for a country's economic problems.



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[-] 4 points by GoVenezuela (7) 8 years ago

This is the best news I've heard since the birth of Occupy. Finally someone high up in government is on the right trail.

I knew sooner or later the rats would be sniffed out.

Greed has plundered the world long enough.

Go Venezuela !

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

It's obvious from the hyperinflation that the Venezuelan government is not on the right trail.

[-] 3 points by GoVenezuela (7) 8 years ago

On the contrary. Hyperinflation is the sound of the rats beginning to squeal.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

As the people starve? You really do have a lot in common with Chavistas, you would cut off your nose to spite your face.

Venezuela food shortages: 'No one can explain why a rich country has no food'

Venezuelans queue for food at a state-run market in Caracas. Photograph: Reuters It's the rainy season in Venezuela and Pedro Rodríguez has had to battle upturned manhole lids, flooded avenues and infernal traffic jams in his quest for sugar, oil and milk in Caracas.

His daily battle to find food is not new, but it's getting worse. "There is something about finally having enough to make ends meet and being unable to buy what I need because it's gone missing. It leaves me feeling indignant," says Rodríguez, a 55-year-old removal man who makes an average of £500 a month. "I haven't lost hope that things will get better, but sometimes the end seems nowhere in sight."

Venezuelans have faced shortages before, so rehashing old strategies such as substituting rice for manioc or going to informal street vendors who re-sell oil, milk or flour at a higher price, comes easy. For many here, finding food is not the problem – it is the lengths one has to go to that are hard to reconcile.

In Avenida Victoria, a low-income sector of Caracas, Zeneida Caballero complains about waiting in endless queues for a sack of low-quality rice. "It fills me with rage to have to spend the one free day I have wasting my time for a bag of rice," she says. "I end up paying more at the re-sellers. In the end, all these price controls proved useless."

In 2008, when there was another serious wave of food scarcity, most people blamed shop owners for hoarding food as a mechanism to exert pressure on the government's price controls, a measure that former president Hugo Chávez adopted as part of his self-styled socialist revolution.

This time, however, food shortages have gone on for almost a year and certain items long gone from the shelves are hitting a particular nerve with Venezuelans. Toilet paper, rice, coffee, and cornflour, used to make arepas, Venezuela's national dish, have become emblematic of more than just an economic crisis.

"We used to produce rice and we had excellent coffee; now we produce nothing. With the situation here people abandoned the fields," says Jesús López, in reference to government-seized land that sits idle. "Empty shelves and no one to explain why a rich country has no food. It's unacceptable," adds the 90-year-old farmer from San Cristóbal, on the western state of Táchira, bordering Colombia.

For Asdrubal Oliveros, an economist at Ecoanalítica, one of the country's leading consulting firms, this recent bout of food shortages is the result of a series of elements coming to a head. From an over-reliance on imports to price controls and, quite simply, a lack of funds, food shortages in Venezuela have not only peaked but they have lasted longer than ever.

"Other than oil, we produce close to nothing, and even oil production has decreased. There is a lack of hard currency, and, in a country that imports everything, this becomes more evident with food scarcity," says Oliveros.

For Oliveros, an additional cause for the shortage of basic food staples is the decrease in agricultural production resulting from seized companies and land expropriations. "More than 3m hectares were expropriated during 2004-2010. That and overvalued exchange rate destroyed agriculture. It's cheaper to import than it is to produce. That's a perverse model that kills off any productivity," he says.

Venezuela's central bank, which has been publishing a scarcity index since 2009, puts this year's figure at an average of 20%, which, according to economists in the country, is similar to countries undergoing civil strife or war-like conditions.

But despite the severe scarcity Venezuelans are not going hungry. The Food and Agriculture Organisation has said that the Latin American nation more than halved malnutrition indices to less than 5% since Chávez came to power. It gives partial credit to the government-run network of food distribution chains known as Mercal, which delivers subsidised food in shops across the country. And yet food has gone missing, and queues outside food shops often wrap around the block.

According to President Nicolás Maduro, the food shortages are being artificially induced by the opposition. He claims they form part of wider plan concocted by the CIA to destabilise his government, sabotage the oil industry and trigger power cuts.

In response, Maduro announced the creation of a state council that would inspect private companies to ensure they were not deliberately slowing distribution or decreasing production. The oil-rich country will also import almost £600m-worth of food from neighbouring Colombia to ensure stores are well-stocked.

Back in Catia, a low-income area in eastern Caracas, Rodríguez leaves the store almost empty-handed. He has found sugar but not a brand he recognises. He will buy oil from an informal seller for three times the regular price and forgo milk – again. "Part of me leaves the shop gleaming like I've hit the jackpot," he says. "As if finding food was a matter of luck."


[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Could you please explain how those two videos relate to food shortages in Venezuela or to Venezuela wrecking its own economy through socialist policies and scapegoating its own business owners?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Why don't YOU explain how Venezuela has anything to do with the reality of life all around you.

The realities that you completely ignore.

Poor people don't stay at the rich people's hotels you represent?

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Yes, I have been explaining the connection between Venezuela and the US. The similarities between the Chavistas and Occupiers. The price fixing that's similar to the price fixing that prolonged the depression and caused gas shortages in the US in the 70s. And I have been pointing to the looting that is destroying Venezuela's retail sector as an example of the futility of attacking your own business owners. That's exactly what this thread is about.

We don't have any hotels yet. Our restaurants and night clubs are frequented by both the 99% and the 1% all over the world.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

There you go with more presumptions and assumptions.

All while still ignoring the conditions of the world at your door.

And you continue your evasiveness, by using only the broadest of strokes....

The bottom line?

If you don't know Florida, you sure as hell don't know Venezuela. You don't speak for OWS, on any level at all.

So your entire rant is based on misperceptions.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I don't claim to speak for OWS, but this entire thread confirms my premise that there are many parallels between the Chavistas and the Occupiers.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Only in your assumptive, presumptive head.

What would say you parallel?

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Isn't that what Occupy Wall Street stands for?

The Venezuelan government's official policy is that the government represents the 99%. The enemy in their "economic war" is what they call the "burgués". That means "bourgeois". Here on this site, the term used is "the 1%".

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You do understand that Venezuela is on another continent?

Our issues, are not entirely the same.

Would you like some photographs of pet coke piles in Chicago?

Perhaps something closer to home?

Bayou Corne?

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Occupy Wall Street's proposed solutions are pretty much the same as what they are actually truly attempting in Venezuela. And those proposed solutions come from the same root idea: the bourgeois are responsible for all of our problems. It's called scapegoating.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

So then you don't understand that Venezuela is on another continent??

Yet you pretend to know every intention of OWS?

By what authority?

Did you want to see those pet coke piles? It's poop from the Koch's themselves.

It sounds more like you're the one attempting to use OWS as a scapegoat for something you're being very unclear about.

Seeing as you claim to be in Miami, it would behoove you to address global warming and it's affects on low lying oceanside properties.

There's some threads around here somewhere,to help you with understanding what's already happening there.

You can the blame your precious "bourgeois", for that if you like.

At least you would be more accurate.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Occupy Wall Street has been very clear about blaming the rich since the beginning. It's even ingrained in the slogan, "We are the 99%". Here's an example from you, specifically.

President Maduro's government in Venezuela is your ideal. It's your dream. They wave your flag. Last week, the government "Occupied" the stores, and forced the owners to sell their inventories at losses. Awesome, right? Except that if you make it impossible for people to do business then they will have to close their businesses, and fire their employees. That's what is happening across Venezuela, as the government nationalizes new industries by making it impossible to do business.

“I've ordered the immediate occupation of this chain to offer its products to the people at fair prices, everything. Let nothing remain in stock ... We're going to comb the whole nation in the next few days. This robbery of the people has to stop.” -- President Nicholas Maduro


[-] 2 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

It's not so much we don't lke the rich, it's just we think the rigged system that they set up.. where they enjoy socialism and we suffer the worst of capitalism...well we kinda think that sucks. Don't you?

And what about the Top 10 Most Socialist Countries in The World. The people that live in these countries don't have to stress so much about getting sick and going bankrupt 'cause they can't pay there medical bills. And golly in most of those countries...and even in many so-called undeveloped countries people have longer life-spans to boot. We rank 33rd. Is that because of the corrupt influence big pharma has on our health-care system, or people not being able to afford to go to the doctor when they are sick, or do you think that it is because of corporate America being able to put all that nasty crap into our food?? Well?

And except for China, and perhaps 1 or 2 other countries that have suffered the deleterious effects of neoliberalism, they seem to be fairly nice places to live too.



[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The number one country on your list of shining examples of socialism has one of the highest levels of wealth inequality (GINI index) on the entire planet. Okay...

[-] 3 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

"Okay," China right? I'll settle for 9 or even 8.

Now...what about the top ten nations with the happiest people in the World. We rank 17, although I consider myself to be quite a happy dude. Once again they seem to all be socialist countries. Damn those socialists!.......they're happy too!..;-)


[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

That's so funny, you gave me yet another parallel between the Occupy people here and the Chavistas in Venezuela. Attempting to shift the goal posts from the actual economy to "happiness".

Venezuela Unveils Orwellian Ministry of Supreme Social Happiness

Venezuela’s president, Nicolas Maduro, just unveiled the country’s euphemistically-named Deputy Ministry of Supreme Social Happiness—to mockery on Latin America’s blogosphere.

Consider the latest from the gatekeeper of the late Hugo Chávez's experiment in "21st-Century Socialism": the Deputy Ministry of Supreme Social Happiness. Last week, to much fanfare, Nicolas Maduro unveiled this new government subdivision, which he said will oversee and troubleshoot some 30 separate social programs, known collectively in Venezuela as "missions."


"Happiness" is the kind of thing that you want to shift attention to when your economy is wrecked, because happiness can't be measured but a wrecked economy can be measured. In Venezuela it is becoming a code word for government handouts.

[-] 4 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

Get your foes straight. I haven't given you any "parallel between the Occupy people here and the Chavistas in Venezuela." Most of the countries that I have drawn parallels to are northern European countries. But like in all successful struggles that have sought and achieved systemic change, radicals are needed. You would only have to study up on the New Deal to know that.

Edit: And the more your people resist change, the more our people will become educated on how screwed up this rigged system is...and the more demanding & radical they will become. That's a real problem for the corrupt elite, however it is a real boon for us. So what's your offer...now!?...;-)

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Ooh thank you for promoting me to the elites. It seems that Chavistas and Occupiers both consider just about anybody who has a job to be the bourgeoisie. I got a LOT of that during my time on this site and that was another thing that I wanted to show to my Venezuelan friend.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 years ago

Promotion to the ''elites'' would of course pander perfectly to your conceits and with 'many a truth in jest' clearly in employ, we clearly have insight into your disdainful view of The 99% and your exclusivist and supremacist tendencies. However, avowed registered Republican that you are - what else should we really expect, lol ?

The 1% are lackeys, apologists and enablers for The Parasitic 0.01%, Oligarchs, Plutocrats and Venal Kleptocrats and The Corporations, so ignorant and prejudiced opinions are no place for anyone to really objectively assess Socialism, so step back from The Corporate MSM (ABCNNBCBS / FUX SNEWzzz / NYT, WSJ etc.) propaganda and thus yourself to consider :

Socialism has an ethical basis and dimension, above and beyond 'the dog eat dog' and 'The Devil take the hindmost' attitudes of crude laissez faire capitalism. Indeed Modern High-Finance Crapitalism (cf Corporate Banksterism / 'Hoover-Up Kaputalism' ) is a Busted Flush and any honest person still in possession of the most rudimentary ethical compass - can clearly see that.

Furthermore - ''US corporate-financier funded think-tank, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), declared in its "post-Chávez checklist for US policymakers," that the US must move quickly to reorganize Venezuela according to US interests.

''In reality, AEI is talking about dismantling entirely the obstacles that have prevented the US and the corporate-financier interests that direct it, from installing a client regime and extracting entirely Venezuela's wealth while obstructing, even dismantling the progress and geopolitical influence achieved by the late President Hugo Chavez throughout South America and beyond.'', from :

Washington tolerates no independent governments. It only demands pro-Western ones. It wants them serving US interests. Outliers are targeted for regime change. Throughout his popular tenure, Chavez was America’s main hemispheric bete noire. He’s gone now but Chavismo lives. Washington’s war on Venezuela continues because 'it’s the oil, stupid' as Venezuela has the world’s largest reserves but it’s also for unchallenged US regional dominance and no holds barred tactics persist to achieve it.

Your aversion to the collective well being of The 99% is duly noted 'TJ' and your views on Universal Healthcare, Free Education as well as provision in elderly age would be appreciated in reply & see :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Thanks for the part about the "parasitic" elite, that's word-for-word Chavista propaganda and that's part of what I'm trying to show my Venezuelan friend. That there are extremist leftists here also, who think exactly like the Chavistas. Fortunately here they don't control the government.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 years ago

There was once a time when political 'conservatism' meant roughly what the word implies - attempts to keep things as they are and to prevent economic and societal change in order to defend the interests of the dominant class. However nowadays, 'conservatism' has mutated into quite a different phenomenon though its purpose is still to maintain the position of the dominant class and their corporations.

It's no longer enough to merely own the Land and most of the Capital and to own the media and via the corrupted system of 'party funding' - to own the 'political system'. In order to restore Dickensian levels of inequality, the crazed 'elites' now seek to reverse what political progress has been made in the last one hundred years. This particularly involves dismantling any tax system that may redistribute wealth and it means trashing any rules that may prevent 'the powerful' from acting just as they please. This kind of 'conservatism' has no regard for what is destroyed. It does not care whom it hurts. Also consider :

Economist, teacher and diplomat John Kenneth Galbraith [RiP], said that : "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy ; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

No man is an island TJ & together we are better off. The Global Financial Crisis of 2008 was the latest crisis - which billions are still paying for with both Austerity at home and Empire abroad, for a corrupt economic system that is NOT working for most people - The 99% globally. Four phrases for you and your Venezuelan guest to later reflect upon as to ... Why OWS ?!

  • Moral Hazard,

  • Perverse Incentives,

  • Regulatory Capture &

  • Conflicts Of Interests !!

No one wishes you any ill in your own economic endeavours and the fruits of the sweat of your brow - we question the power of the corporations - especially The Banksters who have a massively inordinate and insidious power over societies, such as to render them a demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy. Consider :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 2 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

There's not much difference between being one of the corrupt elite who have set up a rigged system, or being the mouth-piece for them.

I guess as your original argument of socialism being bad falls apart, you have to think of yourself as having done something extraordinary & yourself as being kinda 'extra special' for having a job....and anyone who bitches about the corrupt status quo as being lazy & indigent...right?

Get back to me after you provide a good life for your kids like I did. They are now independent & caring young adults. My parenting included included teaching them a good work ethic, good values....and paying off two of their college educations....ok?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

it suggests that you may have fallen off your horse and landed on your head and came out of it with a narcissistic personality disorder..

Definitely - Drain Bamaged.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I originally came here two years ago looking for something to support, and I spent a lot of one-on-one time helping to teach a man to fish, as my personal contribution to our unemployment problem. So no I don't fit our narrative exactly. And of course my true life's work is to teach my daughter a good work ethic, good values, and useful skills, so that she doesn't look for government handouts to survive.

Nobody here is doing anything to make the argument 'fall apart' that socialist policies and scapegoating the business owners is destroying Venezuela's economy. Is your position that Venezuela's economy is NOT wrecked, like some people here seem to want to believe? ("Bbbut... Free health care!") Or is your position that something else is wrecking Venezuela's economy? The CIA, perhaps?

[-] 5 points by prospector22 (185) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

Yes we all get the grandiose picture that you want us to conjure up of yourself. You're the strong, independent Marlbo Man...right?! And we are lackeys wanting something for nothing. It's not a bad tactic although disingenuous & it suggests that you may have fallen off your horse and landed on your head and came out of it with a narcissistic personality disorder... but considering the circumstances, it is one of the only tactics you can deploy in mouth-piecing for the corrupt elite.

I understand that to debate this honestly...knowing that we refuse to buy into the silly notion that a corrupted political & economic system that puts banking and corporate interests ahead of the 99%'s is unacceptable to us... and it is extremely diffcult for you to attack us for wanting a more just system.... You defintitely have a huge task in front of you in promoting the .01%'s interests as the best thing for all of us, but keep trying as I am enjoying the debate....;-)

One thing that I have learned about people from being on the this planet for more years that most people is, 'Those people who conceitedly talk about themselves as having inner strength and/or physical strength very rarely have either of those attributes.' Instead in your case, in being the mouth-piece for the .01%.... you need to rely on the rigged system for your advantage, and that has nothing to do with strength of any kind.

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/11 - RIP

I've noticed that you keep trying to drag me into your Venezuela/Chavistas debate that you are having with other posters on here. Is that 'cause you are unable to make any type of retort that makes sense to my analogies of where I use mostly long-standing socialistic Northern European countries?, They at least could be a partial blue-print of what our country could have. I must admit I feel a certain amount of empathy towards your trying to defend a system that has on a regular basis caused so much human misery in the World. I mean... I'm still waiting for YOU to give some sort of defense of our current, corrupted, heinous economic/political system... versus their's... where (once again) people have less stress because of not worrying about going bankrupt because of getting sick...where people live longer (3 years longer in some cases), and where people are happier to boot...;-)

Will you be obfuscating our debate again (?!) and taking me back to the Chavistas & Venezuela? The truth is, I know little about Venezuela, but I do know this; Any country that chooses to take its own path, democratically elected President or not.. is in jeopardy of US operatives meddling & even being attacked militarily... with the purpose of bringing down that government and installing a friendly neoliberal government. And in Venezuela's case like in many of the Middle Eastern countries, it comes with the added bonus of controlling their oil reserves which in turn are used as leverage to propagate corporate and banking interests even more... elsewhere in the World.

Need I Google up our shameful intervention in Chile in 1973 too, or can you do that??


You are simply on the wrong side of history, and I don't envy you one bit when several decades from now one of your progeny asks, where were you pop when the people regained control of their country?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

There you go with that bullshit about scapegoating again.

Is that your propaganda word of the day?

Sounds more like a word from the FLAKESnews echo chamber.

Here, chew on this.





You see?

It's not scapegoating, when they are actually doing it.

But then, I guess they are very much who you are subservient to.

Would you like some stuff on Florida's schools to prison pipeline?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

"A myth has long existed in commentary on Venezuela, which goes something like the following: when discussing the Venezuelan revolution, the relevant actors can be expressed through the binary “Chavista/Anti-Chavista.” This myth, it should be mentioned, has a certain political efficacy, and is indeed necessary in situations like the recent elections, in which my enemy’s enemy was indeed my friend."


[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Sure but I'm talking about actual Chavistas. I'm comparing Occupiers like you to them. A comparison that is clearly vindicated by the responses to my post.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Only in your head.

Like I said.

You don't respond well to challenges.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You don't think the rich should be taxed????

And you LIKE it when they gouge their customers??

You also somehow think that mixing semantics on the word "occupy" makes you correct?

You're even stranger this time around Mr. Junkie.

Now how about Florida?

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Of course the rich should be taxed, like everybody else.

Your charge of "gouging" is interesting because of how it reveals your assumptions. If you're a Venezuelan and you import a television to Venezuela the. You're going to have to pay for it in dollars. The official exchange rate is a fiction, so you're going to have to pay seven times the official rate to buy the dollars to buy the television. When you sell that television, you're going to have to charge seven times what the government mandates that you should charge. Is that gouging? If you sell at the mandated prices then you take a loss and your business will be unsustainable. And that's exactly what the government wants, because they want to nationalize your industry. They want you, and your employees to go away. And so the business owners are quitting, and moving their money out of Venezuela and out of the economy. That increases unemployment. And that's not even accounting for the shortages that the price-fixing causes. It's the Great Depression all over again, perpetuated yet again by price-fixing.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

This doesn't do a thing to explain how it got that way, In Venezuela, or anywhere else, it's more than a little assumptive....

How come some factions here in the US don't want to tax the rich?

Can you name that faction?

I get gouged every time I buy much of anything at just about any store anywhere in the US.

Price fixing is way of corporate life.

The great depression was all about economic inequality.

FDR fixed it. The libe(R)tarians have been dismantling it ever since, mostly with the help of the (R)epelican't party and it's drive towards itty bitty, teeny tiny government.

Now..... how about that about that book on the crook who runs Florida?

Is that what you want for Venezuela too?


[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The main lesson we have learned from the New Deal is that wholesale government intervention can -- and does -- deliver the most unintended of consequences. This was true in the 1930s, when artificially high wages and prices kept us depressed for more than a decade, it was true in the 1970s when price controls were used to combat inflation but just produced shortages. It is true today, when poorly designed regulation produced a banking system that took on too much risk.


[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Umm..........just like you don't understand that Venezuela is on another continent.

You fail to understand that Rupert Murdock is a lying piece of shit with a nasty agenda.

Oh.......and you missed that part where the "banks" (read wallstreet shitheads), bought those rules, along with CU and many, many more damaging legislation with the help of the SPN and ALEC.

Would you like to talk about Florida now?

Or would you like to talk how about the present day South would not exist in it's present state without FDR's new deal? Which brought it stuff like telephones and electricity and indoor plumbing?

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Yes, right, thanks. I'm trying to show my Venezuelan friend that there are people here in the US who also believe that the solution to an economic crisis is government handouts, wage hikes, and price fixing. The same things that prolonged the Great Depression for a decade. I obviously know that you don't understand that concept and I don't really care. Not the point really.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


You shouldn't lie to a foreigner like that.

That's really, really mean of you.

Did you tell her the story of Rick Scott?

How about Paul Weyrich?

You are taking unfair advantage of that poor woman.

BTW.....I do understand the concept of what you have presented here.

It's called the ideology of the John Birch Society.

Did you tell her about them and who co-founded them?

You're being really mean to her.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

One of the signatures of the Chavistas chauvinists is that they dominate discussions by insulting and shouting down people who disagree with them. All of the Chavista news over the last week inevitably reminded me of Occupy Wall Street. So I came here and you did not disappoint. Congratulations.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago
[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You forgot about the book man.


Read the book. Learn something.

It's something YOU should be screaming about.


[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Here's another little hunk of truth for you, Mr. Junkie.

It's about the guy who wrote the book on modern management.


You guys have really fucked it up.

Ayn Rand assholes.

You should be much nicer to me. I'm one of the few here, who still thinks we can fix it.

It's guys like you that make me think....well...maybe not.

Let's Nationalize Wallyworld.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I don't think that I fit into that narrative. My personal management gimmick is to find undervalued people in developing nations and pay them US salaries.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


If this was so. You would be clear about it.

You are nothing of the sort.

Nor have you ever been.


[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

If you were going to criticize me for something then the sensible shot might be to attack me for outsourcing jobs when I could have hired Americans. But then there is also the fact that I spent MONTHS on this very forum (and many other channels) trying as hard as possible to find Americans who wanted these computer jobs that I'm hiring for. And I did hire one person through this very forum.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You never said what you engineer, Mr. Junkie.

You were never really clear about that.

Evasive, really, about a lot of things.

You still are.

You prefer people to assume things, so you can challenge them.

Yet you accept few challenges yourself.

Why would I attack you for who you hire?

I like other people.

Now for real.


[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Yes, I have told you many, many, many times what I engineer. Don't call me evasive because you don't remember. I have spent months and months and months on this very site attempting to hire software developer trainees. I offered over and over to invest my own time in training people. (memories...) I finally found ONE person interested out of all of the people on this site whining about unemployment back when OWS started and I spent a year training him, and now he's studying computer science at UC Irvine.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That's still evasive.

There are all kinds of software.

And then there's all those other things you are evasive about.

Geeze, you're even evasive about being evasive.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

We write software and we do data analysis for the hospitality industry. Restaurants, hotels, night clubs.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Catering to the Hilton's, eh?

That explains a lot.

The nationalization of the Caracas Hotel Hilton, must have really pissed you off.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I don't care about that, we're software engineers. I'm amused by you trying to pigeonhole me as the 1% though. If I'm not with you then I must be against you, right? And so if I'm against you then I must be your enemy, the people who you scapegoat for all of the problems in the US. The 1%.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I don't give a fuck about pigeon holing you, you evasive right winger.........LOL

That's not a pigeon hole....that's YOU!

As I told you before, that's why you are so evasive.

You want people to assume things so you can attack them.

You bring nothing but lies and insinuations to the table, yet completely refuse to observe the world at your doorstep.

You don't know shit, or even give a shit, about Venezuela, and you are completely fine with Rick Scott's Florida, or you'd certainly have a comment about him...

I've given you plenty of proof that there is NO scapegoating going on here in the US, yet you continue to use the term like some FLAKESnews commentator under orders from Roger.

You can't even understand a World without enemies, so you make even more assumptions.

I think we're done here Mr. Junkie.

Go feed your jones of lies.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

It doesn't take much to provoke a Chavista into cursing and insults either.

(I have no comment about Florida's governor because he has nothing to do with the populist destruction of Venezuela's economy.)

[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 8 years ago

Considering our media is just a sounding board for American policy makers, I thought it'd be more benificial to find information in other places. I believe this article illustrates the complexities and caveats that our rally-round the flag media dares not delve into. Although I believe I'm wasting my time debating a man who came here with an agenda, I feel it is necessary that other points of view get reviewed before anyone decides helping the working class is a losing proposition.

Besides, I believe there were only a minority of hard core socialists propagating this site. Most people were gunning for a fairer distribution of wages and an end to American military hegemony.


[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Good to know you find being right wing to be an insult.

I find it insulting myself.

That's especially true when I look at your lack of understanding of Venezuela and your abuse of that poor woman.

It's doubly true when combined with your lack of concern for your next door neighbors.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Here, let's talk about what OWS really does say, instead of stuff you want to make up, and then paste on a nation in another continent.


Yes, these people not paying their taxes has been an issue for a while now.

Guess what?

Some of them run off to third world nations like Venezuela to pay even less in taxes and as plus ( to them ) they get to abuse their workforce even more than they do here, and most of those nations have governments so tiny, ( just like the libe(R)tarians and others want here ), they can poison the local environment with impunity.

Often at a high price to the rest of the World.

So yes.

In your statement about scapegoating, as you still won't even acknowledge what I've already said about it to you a few times. (they're actually doing it)

I agree with DK.

You assume and presume far too much in every paragraph, as well.

Now, would you like to talk about conditions in Florida?

I have a wonderful collection of videos I'm dying to show you.

You must be in love with profiling.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

I agree with DK.

Now you are just blatantly trying to piss it off. {:-])

You did mean Dennis Kucinich right?

Danny Kay? Was He a Progressive?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Hmmmm, Danny was Walter Mitty.

On the other hand (or not).....he had a lovely bunch of coconuts.


A penny a pinch................................:)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago
[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


The musical........................:)

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I'm not making stuff up. The top article on the front page of this site right now is a post from the official OccupyWallSt account that calls for five billion dollars to be spent on food stamps and Americorps, and it proposes the "nationalization" of Wal Mart. The next article praises a socialist city council member who proposes "occupying" Boeing factories to "shut down Boeing’s profit-making machine". Welcome to Venezuela.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23590) 8 years ago

Yep, that's what it says. Great, isn't it?

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The whole point of this thread illustrating Venezuela's plight is that government handouts and socialist nationalization of industry are NOT "great" ideas.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23590) 8 years ago

"...the poverty rate dropped by 20% in Venezuela last year – almost certainly the largest decline in poverty in the Americas for 2012, and one of the largest – if not the largest – in the world."

Here's an article by a qualified economist, Mark Weisbrot, who explains Venezuela's economic woes. There are many forces at play, socialism not being one of them:

"Sorry, Venezuela haters: this economy is not the Greece of Latin America"


And, please read OccupyWallSt's forum post. There are lots of facts there. The truth is, unbridled greed leads to revolutions. If the greedy learned how to share in kindergarten we wouldn't be where we are today with WalMart employees, for instance, not earning enough money to eat.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

As apologists are so fond of pointing out, between 2007 and 2011 there was a reduction in poverty in Venezuela by some 38 per cent. And indeed, on the surface this sounds impressive; until you look at poverty reduction in the rest of Latin America. The percentage of people who escaped extreme poverty in Brazil during the same period was 44 per cent, for Peru 41 per cent and for Uruguay 63 per cent. None of these countries possess anything like Venezuela’s vast oil wealth, and yet all of them managed to lift their poorest citizens out of penury without gutting their democracies. As Rory Carroll puts it in his brilliant book on Venezuela, Commandante: ‘While he [Chavez] postured on the world stage and talked of bringing equilibrium to the universe, Brazil built a sustainable economy, took care of the poor and seized regional leadership.’


[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Simple question: Why does Venezuela have a poverty rate greater than Argentina, Uruguay and Panama, if they have the largest oil reserves on the planet?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23590) 8 years ago

Why does the U.S. have 1 in 7 people on food stamps and an average wage of $26,000 per year, and 49 million uninsured, and 22% of children living in poverty when it is the richest country on earth and corporate profits are at an all time high?

Why does it take donations of oil from Hugo Chavez to heat the homes of the American poor?


"CITGO has donated more than $400 million worth of heating oil to the program, managed by Citizens Energy Corporation, a non-governmental organization headed by Joseph P. Kennedy II. CITGO said more than 1.7 million people have benefited from the program all over the U.S., including hundreds of Native American communities. This year more than 100,000 families will benefit, CITGO said in a press release." From the Wall Street Journal.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

government by private hands

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23590) 8 years ago

Right. Not government by the people, for the people. Only for some people.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


What you are really saying is government by corporation IS a good idea.

You have no idea what Venezuela's been through.

I wonder what WallyWorld pays their workers in Caracas?

Do you have any idea?

Is that the place they work for tips?

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Wal Mart does not operate in Venezuela. It would be impossible for them to do business, just like it is now impossible for any company to do business there.

That seems to be your idea of the ideal economy: a whole country where it is impossible for corporations to do business. You will soon see the inevitable result: a crumbling economy like Cuba's where they still drive cars built in the 1950s, capital flight to other countries, food shortages, electricity blackouts, shortages of basic goods, hyperinflation worse than war-torn Syria, and crime worse than Iraq during the war or Mexico during the drug war.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

One of the lucky few, eh?

Leave Cuba out of this. It's a whole 'nuther story.

Unlike Miami. But you don't want to talk about stuff you know about.

Nor have you dealt with any of the facts, I've brought to your attention.


You want to go on ranting about a country you know very little about, and ignoring the one you live in.

Why is that?

I know I believe you are not doing that out of altruism.

Clarity, seems to escape you on that subject.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Everybody who lives in Miami knows a lot about Cuba, and what is happening in Venezuela right now has many parallels to what happened in Cuba after the revolution. For example, Fidel Castro scapegoated Cuba's private sector and drove companies out business in order to nationalize sectors of the economy. The result was that the business owners took their money and their families and moved to Miami. The exact same thing is happening now in Venezuela, and a lot of the exiles are arriving here as we speak. It's history playing out before our eyes, and it is also history repeating itself.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

So ignore what's happening in Florida?

Cuba's been under an embargo and a boycott for most of my life.

Leave Cuba out of this.

Let's talk about Florida now that you've finally brought it up.

It about time.

How's Scott's vote purge doing? Gotta get ready for '16', doncha know.

Is he doing as well as Perry in Texas?

Did you tell your Venezuelan friend about voter purges here yet?

She should know, (R)epelican'ts are like that. They are all about bringing that little piece of South America to every State in the union.

She should know what group is doing that here.

Can I say union?

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

About voter purges, here is the alternative:

Main concerns: Some are concerned that the voter registration list is inflated and has not been sufficiently purged of dead persons and non-citizens. The Venezuelan government is in the process of shifting responsibility of the civil registry to the National Electoral Council (CNE), along with the voters list. International observer missions have long recommended comprehensive audits of the voter list that would test it in two directions (list–to-field and field-to-list), but we are unaware of any such audits to date. Nevertheless, two studies described below address many of the concerns raised, and no one has reported any bias in the remaining errors on the list. Concerns about citizens not included have also been discarded. The current voter list includes 97 percent of all Venezuelans eligible to vote.

Carter Center Study Mission Pre-Election Report for the Oct. 7, 2012, Venezuelan Presidential Election http://www.cartercenter.org/resources/pdfs/news/peace_publications/election_reports/venezuela-pre-election-rpt-oct-2012.pdf

Dead people voting:

One of the biggest anomalies in the last two Presidential elections is that the number of polling stations in which 100% of the voters cast their ballots has been on the increase. In the October 2012 election (you can download the data here), a total of 48 “mesas” had all of their voters show up and vote, comprising 20,012 voters.

While the CNE has not released the data from the 2012 or 2013 fingerprint data, the data of who is still registered to vote is public and the data from the National Institute for Statistics on who is dead is also public. Well, someone in El Universal took the trouble to check how many dead voters were registered in the 48 mesas where 100% of the voters cast their ballot last October. A picture of the list is shown above, you can see the full list here, there were a total of 90 dead voters that resuscitated that day and went to vote.

Well, if 90 out of 20,012 voters that cast their ballots were dead, that extrapolates to 66,887 dead voters nationally, using the total numbers of voters cast (14,872,739) in October. Given that the number of dead people in the voting rolls is estimated to be 210,000, one can only conclude that dead voters went massively to the polls last October with 31.85% of them voting, despite the significant limitations to go and and vote associated with being dead. (To say nothing abut the state of your fingerprint)


Voter intimidation, fraudulent IDs:

Venezuela’s opposition party has pressed for a full recount [of the April 2013 election] and called for peaceful protests. Sources who spoke with Reuters claim that Capriles won by over 300,000 votes, and stated it had evidence of over 3,000 voting day irregularities ranging from fraudulent IDs, and voter intimidation at polling centers.


[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

And this has what to do with Rick Scott?

Is this what you "engineer"?

You already blew it with your FDR commentary.

I'm not going to play copy and paste with you. This has nothing to do with Occupy.

It never did.

This was you, using a woman in Venezuela, in an attempt to use her politically.

That's pretty low.


DK really did get it right.

devilsexcretement......as a news source? Really?

Good night Mr. Junkie.

You should apologize to that poor woman, and tell her the truth about Florida.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

She's reading, you tell her whatever you want to tell her. I have a feeling that she would rather live in a place where dead people are not allowed to vote but I haven't asked her about that specifically.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

So now you're repeating yourself?

Did you apologize to her yet?

Did you inform her that (R)epelican'ts in Florida have targeted brown skinned people for voter intimidation of all kinds?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Not that I necessarily disagree, but I didn't post that.

Plus you keep missing the point that Venezuela is on another continent, and it's been abused, at least since "Spain" found it.

What would you have her people do? Serve them their drinks for free? Work for tips?

You got no cures either. Zippo, nada...nothing.

Her people are doing what they see fit.


I can't wait for you to move to Galt's Gulch. You will eat each other alive rather than clean a toilet or fix a leaky sink.

Now......are you going to answer a single question I've asked you so far?

Or will your charade continue......unabated?

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Venezuela has the largest oil reserves on the planet. But it's people are poor and there are shortages of basic goods and food because of their socialist government.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Sounds like the USSR - mock socialism.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Thank you, yet another example of socialism destroying an economy through inefficiency and corruption.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

The USSR was NEVER socialist - It was and still is a Dictatorship - that like the corp(se)oRATist USA sucks off all wealth to the very few.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The USSR no longer exists, you may have missed the news. When it did exist, it was a socialist government. The second "S" stood for "Socialist". It was a state where the government ("the people") owned the means of production and controlled the economy. That was the problem and that's why they fell. Because of inefficiency and corruption.

The same exact problems apply to present-day Venezuela.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

U R A Dick-head - It was Russia then the CCCP then USSR now Russia - in all that time it was NEVER socialist - it was only called that at one time - Dickwad.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The USSR included many countries other than Russia.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzsta, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.

And it was socialist the entire time, from the 1917 revolution until the end. Very, very socialist. The USSR was the first country ever to adopt a centrally-planned economy. That involved nationalization of industry, centralized distribution of output, coercive requisition of agricultural production, and attempts to eliminate the circulation of money, as well as private enterprises and free trade.

That's socialism.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

All under dictatorship from Moscow - dickhead.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

A dictatorship is a form of government. Socialism is an economic system. The USSR had both, and so does Venezuela. And so does Cuba. Do you see a pattern?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

You can call it what you want - as they do - BUT the 1% under the 0.01% call the shots = they get 99% of the wealth while they starve the rest of the population - same as corp(se)oRATist USA.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The governments of Venezuela and Cuba both agree with you, as the government of the USSR did when they existed. Those governments want "the people" to own everything, not the "bourgeoise". Under a socialist government, "the people" means "the government". When an industry is nationalized, "the people" then own it, meaning "the government". And so then, the people who control the government own everything.

This is a pattern that has been repeated over and over, and we're seeing it again now in Venezuela.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Those governments want "the people" to own everything, not the "bourgeoise".

Bullshit - that's their story - that is not their practice.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Simplistic and idiotic.

I expected better from you Mr. Junkie.

You've lost your touch.

Sure you don't want to talk about Florida?

I'm just dying to show you those videos. then you could show them to your Venezuelan lady friend and show her what Florida is really all about.

Give her a taste of it.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

You were just telling me that Venezuela is a third-world hell hole and that we should just expect them to be poor. I pointed out that they have the largest oil reserves on the planet, and if they're not one of the richest countries in the world then there are obviously problems with their government.

...and so now you want to change the subject.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Look, Mr. Junkie, if you want me to continue to play nice, please don't lie about what I've said to you. Nor put words in my mouth.

You know good and well I never said, "Venezuela is a third-world hell hole". You did.

So yeah, I want YOU to tell her about the hell holes in Florida.

That's what it was really all about......wasn't it?

You brought her up. Didn't you?

Or was she just a device you used?

If so, you shouldn't lie to her about that either. Fess up to her.

It would be best if she knows what to expect in reality, instead of your dreams.

So nope. It's not a change of subject. It's an extension of what you said.

I mean c'mon man. You don't know shit about Venezuela.

You should at least show her what Florida is all about.

In the end this whole thread is about discerning a little truth....isn't it?

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I don't claim to know everything about Venezuela. I'm just following the news because I care about somebody there, and because the spectacle of seeing hyperinflation and the beginning of an economic depression is interesting. How can you advocate all of these proposals for economic fixes and social engineering without taking an interest in a place where they actually are doing those things that people here are suggesting?

My friend there is not coming to Florida because her partner could never get a visa, and I find it perplexing that you keep mentioning Florida when the topic here is Venezuela.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Has it dawned on you yet, that there might be some subterfuge at work?

There is a lot of money and political cache at stake.

It would be difficult to trust a press even less independent than ours, which is pretty fuckin' bad..you would have to agree.

Do you have the GINI numbers on Venezuela? There might be a different story in that data.

Still, you should still tell her the truth about Florida, and how you've used her story in the way that you have.

It wasn't very nice to use her like that.

You don't know shit about Venezuela. I thought I already told you?

You're understanding? It's so shallow, it's laughable.

I'm trying to get you into a conversation about something you should actually know stuff about.


I'm sure you don't know shit about Michigan. You didn't say a word about Orr shutting off the electricity, just 'cause he could. He's a real life dictator, right here in the US.

You should tell her we have those here too. Thanks to the Koch's, ALEC and the (R)epelican'ts.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

The GINI index for Venezuela is declining, meaning that there is LESS wealth inequality. Because of the redistribution that has been happening through government handouts. Last week the President offered every Venezuelan a plasma TV!! The problem, of course is that they wrecked their economy doing it. Why would anybody import new televisions now?

And yes there is a lot of subterfuge. The government there is trying to stop people from learning car prices, dollar prices, violence statistics, information about food shortages, etc.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Government's, aren't the only entities capable of subterfuge.

In fact, theirs has been pretty open about what they are doing.

I can't affect what's going on there, nor can you, and neither one of us knows all that much about the place.

And you really can't paste what's happening there, on what's happening here.

You just can't.

Like I said, her people are attempting to deal with it, in their own way.

It might take some time for things to level out. Good to see GINI improving though. I wish we could get some of that here.

Did you explain Florida to the woman you are using yet? You really should.

You can practice on the forum!

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

She's reading, you explain whatever you want to her. I wanted her to see that there are crazed statist socialists in this country also. You're doing a great job of demonstrating. You also have the opportunity to slip in a message of your own.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


It's up to you. After all, you're the one lying to her in the first place.

After all, it was your decision to be her mentor. You should teach her well the reality of Florida's own crazed fascist.

It never ceases to amaze me how Floridian posters eschew that simple reality.


[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

She has a degree, I was never her mentor. I still fail to see what Florida has to do with Venezuela, other than that a lot of Venezuelans are fleeing and coming here. Perhaps you can explain the connection?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Then why would she need you to use her as a device?

Like I've already said, that's an abusive practice on your part.

You should fess up to her on the high level of fascism in Florida.

Why Florida?

Call it means testing if you like.

If you cannot know the world at your doorstep, why should what you say about a country a world away be trusted?

Short answer.

It shouldn't be trusted.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


When did you move to Venezuela?

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I live in Miami, where many victims of Venezuela's open class warfare are fleeing. I have a particular interest in what has been happening there, especially over the last week, because my best engineer unfortunately lives there. She has not been able to leave her house, not even a step outside of her door, for the last two weeks.

YOU should care about what is happening in Venezuela because it is evidence of the futility of attempting to improve your economy by attacking your own economy or scapegoating your own upper class.

Venezuela is actually implementing many of the ideas that I have seen proposed here by Occupy Wall Street supporters. They have openly declared war on their own business owners, scapegoating them for the decline in the value of the local currency. They're doling out money through social welfare programs and now the government is nearly insolvent and has to sell off gold reserves to stay liquid. They're attempting to fix prices at below market levels, and the result has been shortages, business closures, and increased unemployment.

People here have strongly advocated all of these statist ideas since the beginning of Occupy Wall Street. We're seeing the results of those ideas now in Venezuela.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


It's not scapegoating, when they actually do it.

I don't really know about Venezuela, and this doesn't really tell me, but HERE, in the US they are very much the cause of what's gone wrong.

You being in Florida, should be well aware of that fact, as Florida is one of the first States they pretty much bought outright.

For further information, I would suggest you read this book.


[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Right, yes, exactly. That's exactly the kind of scapegoating that I'm talking about.

I posted this partly because I wanted to show my friend in Venezuela that there are people in the US who believe the same things as the Chavistas. Thank you for helping me to illustrate that.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

So then you are all for folks buying whatever government they can afford?

You LIKE what's happened in Florida and desire it, for the whole wide World?

Is there a $25 word for that desire?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago


[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

With at least a touch of sadism?


He did learn a new Spanish word today though. He even used it in a sentence.

Perhaps he could translate. Or better yet interpret.


[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

With at least a touch of sadism?

And self flagellation.

[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Thanks for behaving just like Chavistas. That's exactly what I was hoping to demonstrate here, that there are people in the US who believe in the same things. The difference is that in Venezuela, people like you guys control the government. With disastrous effects.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Will you also be explaining to her, in detail, the idiocy of libe(R)tarianism and the harm it's caused in the world?

You should be fair and balanced with her.

Can I use that term with out paying royalties?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

How would you describe your behavior and beliefs in Spanish?

Or English, for that matter.


[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

You should get your engineer here on a "guest worker" program and pull this on her!!!!


YAY! Freeeee money!!!

It's the way of the 1%!!!

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I pay people the same regardless of whether they live in Las Vegas or Venezuela or Bangladesh. And so my best engineer has the option of getting the hell out, to a society that is less insane. I'm pushing her to do it and move to Mexico or Argentina or Panama or wherever she likes, before the economic depression begins.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That's exactly what they said at Bosh. They pay everybody fairly.

How many people do have in Bangladesh?

At least you can admit that Florida is insane.

that's a start.

Did you already read that book?

[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I obviously meant that I'm hoping that my Venezuelan engineer will take the opportunity to move to a society that is less insane than Venezuela, not Florida.

I hired a second fantastic engineer in Dhaka, Bangladesh this week, after auditioning him. I don't even waste my time looking for Americans to hire any more. You might remember how I spent MONTHS here, offering to spend my own time training new software developers. Only one person applied, after I spent months and months trying. He worked with me for a year and now he is studying computer science at UC Irvine. But putting that kind of attention into every new engineer is just not sustainable, considering how hard it is to find people who are even willing to try. There are a lot of very skilled people all over the world who are eager to do the work. Since they earn the same as Americans for the same work, in their country they are the 1%.

Venezuelans should be thanking my Venezuelan engineer for the work that she does, and for the money that she brings into the Venezuelan economy. But they don't. They consider her to be the enemy, because she earns too much money, and because she earns American dollars. She can't even spend her paychecks without either taking an enormous loss due to inflation, or breaking the law by exchanging dollars to Bolivars at the actual market value. They're criminalizing the people who could do the most to improve their own economy. As a result, most of those people are leaving the country. The only people left will be the ones yelling "OCCUPY!!", who want handouts that they did not earn. The result will be economic disaster. The economic depression is beginning now, before our eyes.

[-] 4 points by AlternativeEnergy (9) from Lockbourne, OH 8 years ago

No one is looking for a handout, and yet the rich can purchase handouts regularly through bribing public policy.

Occupy wants a level playing field, a transparent playing field in which people put people first, not profits.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I agree and that's what this thread was all about, among others. Where Occupy veers off the rails is in some of the ideas for how to prevent corruption. You seem like you might be one of the people who agrees with this post in that thread. Somebody pointed out the problem:

That implies - whether it was your intent to do so - that you believe that caps should be put on the amount of money one earns rather than that caps be placed on the means of how our elections are funded.

In Venezuela, they're not just talking about it:

Among his priorities, Maduro says, will be to cap profits for businesses at between 15% and 30% and to enforce price controls on an expanding number of goods.



[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Ahhh....I see.

You think Florida is even MORE insane than Venezuela!!!!

In what way? It is a pretty weird place that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I sure would like to hear about your interpretation.

I think with all your fantastic skills you should move on down to Venezuela and tell 'em what's what. I'm sure they would be happy to hear from you. You know more about the place than they do!!

You don't seem to have a handle on what's going on here, so it would be best for all of us, if you did.

Oh and by the way?

Wallstreet IS the prime engine of inflation.....Worldwide.

So chew on that for a while.

I already watched the libe(R)tarians fuck up World econmics a couple of times already.

I'd prefer then to stop doing that.

[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

You're watching socialists fuck up an economy now. Pull up a chair and get some popcorn, because we both have front-row tickets to watch the beginning of the economic depression in Venezuela, caused by the statist policies that Occupy Wall Street stands for.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

You're watching socialists fuck up an economy now.

When did Boner and crew go socialist???

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

No. You are wrong.

I watched Wallstreet banks fuck it up over Ayn Rand style "free market" idealism. Libe(R)topians, for want of a more accurate term.

I watched as a Koch trained (R)eplican't destroyed one the US's formerly great city's by employing ALEC ideology at the State level. It took decades to come to fruition.

I've read enough of what you've written about Venezuela to know you have at best, a VERY shallow grasp of it.

You never had a grasp on what goes on here. WTF do you really know about Venezuela, besides they produce some top flight ball players?

Let's talk about Florida. I know more about that, than you do about Venezuela.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I would like you to please enlighten me about the true reason for the shortages of butter, sugar, flour, toilet paper, and other consumer goods? What's the true reason for the power blackouts? What's the reason for the hyperinflation? Economic warfare from the 1%?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Economic warfare from the 1%?

( ! ) You answered your own question oh defender of the criminal greedy bastards.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Okay thanks. I'm just trying to illustrate to a Venezuelan friend that there are people in the US with the same beliefs as the Chavistas, who would be thrilled to pursue the same "economic warfare" policies against the "Bourgoisie" here if they could get control over the US government. Thanks for the help.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


Illustrate that for her too.

Oh, and give the illustration I already gave you.


So she can get a truer picture than the one you are offering.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

BTW greedy asshole - how much you pay her a year?

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I guarantee that I pay her a lot more than you make. I pay everybody the same for the job that they do regardless of where they live, so the people with the lowest cost of living are the ones who win. (I'm talking about the two in Bangladesh, who also probably earn a lot more than you. They're the 1%, in their country.)

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

What U paying over 16,000 ? And no wonder they would live there rather than here - there they are the 1% ( 0.01% ? ) assholes - while here they would be just another of the poor.

[-] -3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

$16k, are you joking? Multiply that by at least five, minimum.

People here are constantly talking about massive minimum-wage hikes, guaranteed minimum income for all, and other government handouts. The way to get a wage increase is simple: learn a useful skill.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago


So basically they would be lower upper middle class here - but they choose to stay there because there they are the very well to do. So she - your friend (?) engineer chooses to live in fear in Venezuela - so that she can be extremely wealthy in that economy.

EDIT: HEY - gives me an idea - why don't U go join her?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Oh really?

What are you engineering?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

scapegoating the 1% ??? = Fuck you.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Well hang on now. You say "fuck you" because I accused you of scapegoating the 1%.

But you also say that the true reason for the shortages of butter, sugar, flour, toilet paper, and other consumer goods, the power blackouts, and the hyperinflation is "economic warfare from the 1%".

How does that make sense?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Not my fault you can not add 1 & 1 or understand cause and effect U greedy asshole.

[+] -4 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

If I had said "blaming the 1%" then you would have cheered, but because I said "scapegoating", you said "fuck you"?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

It's who you are trying claim is being scapegoated.

Like I said.....It's not scapegoating, when they are actually doing it.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

The 0.01% "are" to blame - if you can't see that - well - then U must be some sort of a functioning moron.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Kevin Orr asked for and got the blackout.

It was Enron that did it in California.

Then there's that pesky global warming that does it all the time.

It sure does hypeinflate the electric bill.


[+] -6 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

Occupy Wall Street is not about anarchism, because there are two major factions competing within OWS. Anarchists and statists. It's a bizarre alliance. There are a lot of hard-core socialist statists within Occupy who are also represented on this site, who believe that government handouts, nationalized industries, and increased state control over the economy are the solutions to our problems.

Occupy is also explicitly about opposing the 1%. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous. Identifying as "the 99%" makes the OWS identity explicitly about opposing the 1%.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

The problem here?

You're one of the nine.


So far?

In all you posts. Even from the way back machine.

You never quite identify just what you believe.

Other than being contrary.

Wanna talk about Florida now?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

You never quite identify just what you believe.

NOT TRUE - It supports Greed - always has.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago


Of course we know that. He just refuses to admit it.


Just like folks from Florida......never want to talk about Florida.

It's like a cult or something.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

& - or something.

That would be = Drain Bamage plus a poor upbringing/education.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Something in the water?

Fear of aquifer depletion sinkholes?

The Miami rave scene?

I wish one of them would finally fess up.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Something in the water?

No doubt as well as too much shit up the nose.