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Forum Post: So you think religious crazies are only in America & Arab countries?

Posted 1 year ago on Sept. 16, 2012, 11:57 a.m. EST by bensdad (8977)
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29 Comments

29 Comments


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[-] 1 points by WSmith (5271) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Let's make/mandate religion personal, like masturbation.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Karlin (350) from Nelson, BC 1 year ago

Ya, "went to sleep with a smile on his face" reminds me of a famous Quote: “There are two ways to sleep well at night - Be ignorant or be prepared.”

I dare say the smiling fool was ignorant, the parable saying nothing of being prepared.

One more, which could apply to religion: "Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true". — Francis Bacon

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

That's cute. But i look at your parable, and compare it to my life, and think, what a boring existence to believe you know ultimate Truth and never have to ponder if you are wrong.

I mean, what would be the point of a brain if everything was given to you in one easy format, the Bible.

Maybe that's is why religious people have all the free time for entertainment gossip, shopping sprees and football games, they already got it all figured out. Give me the dirt so I can be entertained.

[-] 1 points by throaway (57) 1 year ago

Uh, the only :"crazies" in USA are the atheirsts!

[-] 1 points by Karlin (350) from Nelson, BC 1 year ago

Welcome to OWS! We have all kinds here, we definately do not all agree with each other. Spelling is not extremely important either and in fact that spelling sparks some ideas like "thirsty for no gods".

Anyway, I am a proud atheist, and a little crazy, but from Canada. Whats your religion?

We are the 99% - every one of us except the 1% wealthy elites belongs here, and if the 1% wants economic justice for all, they are welcome too.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (667) 1 year ago

What's crazy about not believing in magic without proof.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

oh my.

I always thought the pursuit of enlightenment was not only an inside job, but one that is full time as well - which means if you pursue that path, you won't have a whole lot of time off from introspection and self examination - certainly not enough time to contemplate the sins of others with any great depth or clarity . . .

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Could you expound on that?

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

well sure . . . I could expound on that if you want - I can expound on just about anything . . . trouble is I'd probably be lyin. I've spent far more time contemplating the nature and depth of repelican sin to be in any position to claim significant personal enlightenment . . . .

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

National politics by any label has been a long slow slide for as long as I can remember; I'm more interested in your view of... well, just about anything.

Really stupid question; I have no idea where he was going with this...

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

so . . . what?

You want to hear that spirituality is a significant component of the human condition and experience, that all cultures have developed traditions and observances in recognition of this facet of our existence; or that in looking at our own experience of spirituality we are looking at an aspect of God? and that therefore no culture or tradition has cornered the market on what it is to be spiritual, to be enlightened, that since every person approaches their own spirituality from behind the lens given by their culture, their concept of their own spirituality and so their view of that aspect of God that is in us is tinted by that cultural lens; by that place and that time in history, in space?

That if God were a mountain, every culture would or does view that mountain from a different place, giving that mountain a profile that is unique to their perspective?

Is that what you want to hear?

Well. Don't think too much about it. Spirituality just is - it doesn't take thought.

It takes being.

Just be.

UBU.

z

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Nah, I didn't really want to hear all that. I see enlightenment more as the product of an intellectual quest, it doesn't necessarily have to be of a mystical or spiritual nature, but while we're here - at what point does contemplation or exploration of the mystical become "spiritual"?

I think it's fair to say that the direction of much of our science is still guided by this ingrained perspective that is certainly Christian in origin; in fact, it directs much of science worldwide.

I hear ya, every word, I really do... and I understand it, but...

"you won't have a whole lot of time off from introspection and self examination - certainly not enough time to contemplate the sins of others with any great depth or clarity" (?)

Wouldn't the opposite also be true? Do those so heavily focused on criticism ever take time to examine themselves? And if not, why not...

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

To be able to faithfully and honestly criticize others, wouldn't you have to do some deep soul searching of your own?

I believe most people live by the "live and let live" mantra because they themselves have not searched their soul enough to honestly have an opinion about other people's actions.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

that's just silly. that mantra is the embodiment of a celebration of our individuality, our diversity. Most often people gravitate toward other people who are like themselves in fundamental ways - the slogan 'live and let live' is one way of cutting short the instinct to judge others on the basis of differences, rather than on the basis of character content, it is a way of interacting with a mental/emotional process that many of us engage in without ever being fully aware of it.

Such slogans are the beginning of enlightenment, and may serve to take the focus off of the external, and return it to task of enlightenment itself, which is an inside job.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

So being enlightened is not having an opinion? well, if that be the case, enlightenment sounds a lot like political correctness. How else is someone supposed to grow if no one ever calls their bull shit?

No, "live and let live" mantra is for those who don't know how best to live themselves so can't have an opinion about those around them.

I hope you don't keep yourself unchallenged by gravitating to those who agree with you and see the world as you do. Being challenged is the best way to enlightenment, or so I believe, and if everyone is allowing me to live and only expecting to be left alone, then how do we ever challenge one another and grow?

Now, I am only speaking about verbally challenging someone, I ain't about physically challenging someone's beliefs. Gravitating and socializing with those who only see the world as I do, I'd say, leads to the echo chambers that are destroying our union.

[-] 5 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

So being enlightened is not having an opinion?

that is not what I said. In fact, the practice of Live and Let Live, is one way to avoid being ruled by feelings, thoughts, or beliefs - it is a way of challenging one's assumptions of those around them based on those feelings, thoughts or beliefs.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

I see, that makes sense

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Actually I think most people are far too critical of others... and without circumspection with which to create a vantage point, we tend to be very inconsistent in our philosophy.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

— n

  1. the act or means of enlightening or the state of being enlightened

  2. Buddhism the awakening to ultimate truth by which man is freed from the endless cycle of personal reincarnations to which all men are otherwise subject

  3. Hinduism a state of transcendent divine experience represented by Vishnu: regarded as a goal of all religion

Enlightenment (ɪnˈlaɪt ə nmənt)

— n

  • the Enlightenment an 18th-century philosophical movement stressing the importance of reason and the critical reappraisal of existing ideas and social institutions

.


.

Some aspects of human behavior work while others do not, and researchers classify certain kinds of behavior on the basis of this distinction, and do so as either adaptive or as maladaptive.

When individuals encounter that which is maladaptive, they either suffer with it or they engage in consideration of alternatives.

Sometimes the results of such experimentation are in fact completely counter intuitive, and this begins to encroach upon the aspects of the human condition that are spiritual.

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well, first... Although dictionaries often do this, I don't believe it's appropriate to define a noun through the use of its root. The suffix 'ment' here - in "enlightenment" - implies some state achieved through specific action. In other words, I see the definition of "to be enlightened" as a cop out by those who haven't a clue - they not only do not understand the verb, or the adjective, they also do not understand the resultant state.

But we really can't discus enlightenment until we agree on definition.

I have no idea what you're saying in the last few sentences but I get the impression you are implying that experimental science has tended to encroach upon religious belief; personally I do not find that to be the case - current science very much supports the presence of "supernatural" as that which exists outside all known laws of physics in such a manner that no algorithm as a means of deciphering is remotely possible, so... of course, we're not just talking semantics here - there is significant difference between what we view as natural forces and our Christian God. But on the overall scale of things, I'm not certain it makes any difference whatsoever; more truthfully, I'm quite certain that it doesn't.

Nor does any of this change the fact that we are so inconsistent in philosophy that I have begun to question whether a coherent rationale is even possible.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

The definition provided above indicates the possibility of enlightenment as either a personal, spiritual experience, or as a purely intellectual endeavor.

In either case it may become an examination of behaviors or processes that either work well or that do not work at all. Processes that do not work well on an institutional level we call red tape.

On an individual level we - or researchers - refer to them as maladaptive.

What I meant was that when an individual begins self examination of their own maladaptive behavior often the solutions are much simpler than one expects even if difficult to apply - and that both the solution itself and the application of the solution with its results may be entirely counter intuitive.

this is perhaps where spirituality begins.

I thought what I had said above was fairly straight forward:

  • Some aspects of human behavior work while others do not, and researchers classify certain kinds of behavior on the basis of this distinction, and do so as either adaptive or as maladaptive.

  • When individuals encounter that which is maladaptive, they either suffer with it or they engage in consideration of alternatives.

  • Sometimes the results of such experimentation are in fact completely counter intuitive, and this begins to encroach upon the aspects of the human condition that are spiritual.

.

I was in fact referring to experimentation conducted on a personal level - for what is it but an experiment if we try something new in our personal lives without knowing what the outcome will be?

As for researchers - if it can be shown that the behavior of groups like Heaven's Gate was inspired by or was positively reinforced within a framework of research conducted in public, then yes, they have encrouched upon the spiritual - this is an entirely different context than the one I was referring to above.

I was attempting to draw a distinction between the intellectual pursuit as provided by the definition, and the spiritual pursuit of the individual. I was not attempting to address conduct undertaken by researchers at all.

That, where it involves human beings as research subjects, may be the antithesis of spirituality.

That you leapt to such a conclusion on such little evidence seems to suggest a greater familiarity with my position on issues than is suggested by a join date of

Your focus on enlightenment as a purely intellectual endeavor seems to suggest the possibility of a moral compass that may quickly bend under the weight of reason and rationalization - which it must be carefully noted, may be put forth to justify anything.

Even, in this case, enlightenment itself.

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well now wait a minute there, big dog... I don't generally leap to conclusions; and it's not necessary to belittle people who ask questions.

The definition provided above indicates the possibility of enlightenment as either a personal, spiritual experience, or as a purely intellectual endeavor.

While this may be true it does not define this "process" or the resultant state; I ask again, what is enlightenment?

Is it to discover that we are deficient; is it truth revealed through self examination? Or is this just line 2 of definition? Or, is it inappropriate entirely - may some other word here offer more succinct description in reference to "maladaptive"?

Do nouns not describe? What is enlightenment?

I asked at what point does premonition entertained in mystical form - creative imaginary exploration, but why, how so, and what for - become "spiritual" - two different words; to examine you must again first wrap yourself around definition.

Funny but it never occurred to me that I should first examine your "join date" but I suppose, that is in fact very relevant.

Would not morality itself require enlightenment; what is "morality"?

Can I justify anything? I think human beings in general are all capable of justification as a means of self defense; that justification can lead us all down the slippery slope... And that's why the the Wisemen and Spirit Chiefs have always been so highly esteemed.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

The path of enlightenment is a journey to an awakening, the realization of some ultimate truth. It is in a very real sense, an epiphany, a new awareness.

Often the journey begins with the practice of some fairly basic principles - these vary by culture but most of them seem to follow two distinct paths - that of meditation, and there are many forms; and the adoption of new attitudes and habits, most of which may be classified as a practice of treating thy neighbor as thy self.

There are many different ways to approach either, or both routes outlined above, various cultures claim certain promises along the way.

For more information on the topic I recommend making a decision to determine a path for yourself.

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

My decision was to attempt to educate you, Zen.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I don't doubt it - and the five different conversations I've been having are all various permutations of you . . . sockpuppets . . .

Don't worry - I think you will find that I am largely impervious . . .

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

If you were impervious you wouldn't be here, big dog.

[-] -2 points by roboProg (-56) 1 year ago

78 protesters at the ows anniversary today in NY, that is quite impressive

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20490) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

really? you think that looks like 78 protesters?

I think you are just another terrified conservative.

Say . . ..

did you know?

  • Global Warming

  • It's right out in the parking lot.

  • The Repeliccan party is DONE

z

[-] 0 points by Orwellwuzright (-84) from Lockeford, CA 1 year ago

Enlightenment.....

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