Forum Post: sign petition to support single payer healthcare
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 28, 2011, 1:21 p.m. EST by protest
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American medicine, as it has evolved, is composed of roughly equal parts of hubris and greed.
And people expecting it to be paid for by their neighbors.
I want public health care like public libraries
Just one comment: instead of the many BILLIONS spent in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan--what's the daily figure?--we could pay for the highest quality healthcare for everyone.
No we can't, the entire military budget wouldn't cover what is spent on health care. We need to get single payer health care, but it's going to cost more then a war or two. Health care cost 2.5 trillion in 2009, according to US Dept. Health & Human Services. That's just a touch over $8000 per person in the US. Not per family, but for each person. We have to get it, it's the best way to go, but it's not going to be free or easy.
Thank you, JenLynn, I didn't know those figures. But, nevertheless, money for wars would pay for an awful lot of schools, teachers, hospitals, and everything else, freeing up plenty of money for healthcare. I agree with you about single payer. Doesn't that 2.5 trillion include all the profits, deductibles, etc. the insurance industry steals from us? What's the estimate that healthcare would cost in the US without those unnecessary amounts?
Thanks again!
I think it was money spent by consumers, you can google annual health care cost to find the page. I agree, we waste a lot of money on a lot of things. Hate to sound like my dad, but we sometimes forget that nothing is free.
And what people forget is that having millions of people unemployed is a tremendous loss to society in productivity. All those people could be teachers' assistants, and thus bring down class sizes to maybe half what they are now (as many as 35 kids in some public-school classes); train people to be aides in hospitals and nursing homes, where, I found out the hard way with my father, they're always "short-staffed"--which means no one takes care of the patients.
Thanks so much.
Putting a corrupt, inefficient middle man in and giving him a monopoly. Where do I begin to tear this idea apart?
Honestly, my medical plan for next year has been screwed up so badly already there's no way I'm on board with any more "Democrats" ideas around healthcare. You don't mess with my kids' coverage like this and then turn around and expect me to give you more creedence.
How so? What happened?
The plan I've had for years, which has served my family incredibly well, was completely removed as an option. In its place, we have plans with quadruple deductibles, maximum out of pocket blown sky high, and the ability to predict in advance what something is going to cost removed (they will just pay a percentage of whatever it costs, no more copay).
Yes I am grateful to have coverage for my family and no I do not think it is fair that so many in our prosperous country do not, but that doesn't stop me from being pissed off about this enough to not vote for the man responsible next time around. I held my nose when I voted for him last time anyway... I usually prefer to "throw my vote away" on a third party candidate.
"Single payer", that's liberal-speak for "someone else but me payer"
Paid for by tax dollars the same way your fire department is "free."
Health trumps Wealth!
Democrats dont care about you or your single payer. They had a chance, and they sided with the insurance companies.
When are you fuckers going to get this through your thick ass skulls?
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Tell that to kids with preexisting conditions who now have health insurance because of the Affordable Care Act.
Tell that to people who can no longer be denied coverage that they payed for when they get sick.
Tell that to people who have the option to stay on their parents policy now to age 26.
I am self employed. At one point my health insurance premium was more than my mortgage for an individual policy with a $2500 deductible. At least now the law says that I can get an annual physical exam before having to meet that deductible.
At this point I am still able to afford individual insurance. Who knows in the future, if premiums rise. Many people can't afford health insurance.
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Hardly. Are you capable of discussion without insults? It's very easy to treat people poorly when you are anonymous isn't it?
My premium came down because I raised my deductible. That's what many people are having to do to afford a policy.
Did you read the rest of my post Mikey? I notice you conveniently ignored it.
I'm saying that the law helped me personally because I can now be covered for an annual physical and preventative care.
I am not against capitalism or profits. I do think that there needs to be regulations on a free market to protect society. Whether it be to protect the environment, stop reckless financial gambling on wall street or regulate health insurance companies or banks.
For this we don't need a small federal government, we need a strong one. So I disagree with the minimal federal government, let the free markets take care of everything and let the churches take care of the needy philosophy of the Republicans.
I basically have a pessimistic view of human nature. If you let people be greedy, they will be. If you let them disregard the suffering of other people for their own personal or shareholder benefit, they will.
Understand?
I, like many people in this movement, understand that corporations have a stranglehold on both parties of our government.
Citizens United was a disaster. Tons of money is pouring into state and federal elections. I'd like to see campaigns funded by the public.
I'd like to see Medicare be able to negotiate drug prices to save money as one thing will help bring down the cost of health insurance. Lobbyists stop that.
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MikeyD, don't you think I know that about corruption? Why to do you think I'm for these protests and have followed them from the start?
Yes, I know about Boehner being an alumnus of ALEC. Cantor too. I know corporations are writing legislation.
Believe me, I know an asshole when I see one.
I want to get the money and corruption out of government and reinstate the regulations that are being whittled away by corporate influence.
Anyway, you go ahead and spin the world MikeyD style and tell us all about your ideal vision and how everyone else is a fool.
I've got to get some work done now. Gotta go. Took a little break.
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Yeah, I saw Jeff Immelt on 60 minutes say he had no apologies.
You misinterpreted my comment. I'm asking you to describe your ideal world.
What is your plan of action?
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I find Mikey'sD comments very interesting since he lives in California. I lived in California for 26 years. What I saw were hard working people who took care of their families. What horrible values these people have, right Mike. The people whose hard work has allowed you to buy vegetables and fruit, In fact the states that have impose tough immigration laws are now finding their farmers losing all sorts of money because these states have lost the work force that picked the crops.
california is the ultimate representation of the american dream... just by hard work and lots of overtime alone, even a prison nurse can make $270,000 a year, even in the middle of the recession
california is the ultimate representation of the american dream... just by hard work and lots of overtime alone, even a prison nurse can make $270,000 a year, even in the middle of the recession
I was so solidly pro-union for most of my life, having been influenced by a grandfather who was a Teamster & a dad who was a steelworker & my own blue collar work that I did to put myself through school.
But the California prison guard's union and the stuff the police unions do have turned me against the idea of public employee unions.
Teachers' unions do some stuff I don't like too, but I generally have respect for teachers and the work they do so I don't like to badmouth them.
But prison guards earning six figures a year and being able to heavily influence public policy, that just doesn't sit right.
But their hospitals have a shot at avoiding insolvency. People with 6th grade educations will NOT be buying their own healthcare. The more of that we "invite" into our country, the worse healthcare gets. California is an excellent of this collapse.
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Might as well include Mexico now and get it over-with.
There is NO WAY I want the feds controlling my health care being they absolutely screw up everything else they get their hands on.
So you will refuse to use Medicare that is run by the Fed Uriah?
I'm not gonna need it, but thanks for the thought. From what I've seen Medicare is already a nightmare and I can't even imagine what will happen when the feds run all of it, while using Medicare as a model.
I'm taking care of 2 elderly parents right now that use Medicare and have had no problems with it in my experience.
I'm taking care of my mom with Parkinsons but she still has insurance for awhile. I know my dad had medicare when he died of cancer and they were, ah, a real pain. He would have died anyway, he was terminal, but they certainly didn't help much. If time isn't a big deal, it might be fine and dandy.
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Here we go. Let's demonize immigrants. Oh, I have an idea: Let's not.
Immigration made this country.
What a red herring.
Demonizing? It's simple math and reason. Smarten up. If you have millions and millions of poor unskilled people come here, and we have, you WILL make healthcare worse. What does demonizing have to do with any of that reality?
The average educational attainment in the United States is about 1 year post high school. What's been coming in, primarily from Mexico, is about 6th grade educated. What's not obvious about what that does to healthcare, poverty and income skew in America?
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While it is touted that the government’s single-payer system will pay for healthcare for everyone, the truth is, as other countries found out, that it simply can’t. What it must do instead is therefore, limit the accessibility to healthcare. Most countries that have a single-payer system or one like it, have found that they must limit access to treatment and even to doctor availability in order to maintain the whole system. This, of course, is fine as long as you are not sick or in need of specialized treatments. Recently, because of the disparity created by it’s ‘universal healthcare system” the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that a Quebec law that banned private health care and insurance was unconstitutional saying that “access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare.” As you might imagine by that statement, the waiting lists for healthcare are extremely long under a government healthcare system.
The Canadian government found that people were suffering, not only great pain, but a great deal of anxiety as they were forced to spend months on waiting list for needed surgery, sometimes only to have that surgery canceled and then they were relegated to spend even more time on another waiting list. The Supreme Court of Canada found that numerous people died with on waiting lists. One woman was noted to have been waiting on heart surgery, which was canceled twice, before she could have the scheduled surgery she suffered from a fatal heart attack. In Great Britain, a woman had her cancer surgery cancelled four times, by the time they finally got her in the operating room the cancer had spead and was then inoperable. In Austrialia, the waiting list for thousands of children is over 600 days for ear, nose and throat surgery. Even in Sweden, which is lauded for its healthcare system has major problems, and has found that more patients die while on waiting lists then do in the hospital operating rooms.
Single-payer....no thanks!
I find it interesting that you are trying to make your case against single payer health care by claiming that people die while on waiting lists in countries that have universal healthcare.
In the US 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance.
This will only get worse as spiraling premium costs and unemployment purge more and more people from affordable healthcare.
Health care is rationed in this country as well.
And where are your stories of people losing their homes and life savings because they became ill in these other countries?
The US ranked 37th by the World Health organization while spending far more on healthcare:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064
Health care is a moral issue. It is an issue of human life over shareholder or corporate profit.
Yes, you can find problems in all kinds of systems. Yet, other industrialized countries have made the moral choice to try to give all their citizens access to healthcare.
Do you know what will happen when the already over-burdened public coffers and the monetary/economic system of this country collapses? You think 45,000 deaths is a lot, just wait. with over a Trillion Dollars in unfunded liabilities, this country faces some of the most devastating financial issues it has ever faced, yet there are those who, like yourself would rather see more placed upon it then face a reality that you cannot or will not see. This country is printing money that is becoming increasingly worthless by the day. Have you ever heard the word hyper-inflation? Well, at this moment, the unofficial inflation rate, non-cumulative, is in the double-digits, do you know what's coming....just wait, you will not be worried about health care when this next fiat money bubble burst, you will be worrying about trying to find enough to eat, so will hundreds of millions of people in this country.
Not much time to respond to you today. I'll get back you when I have time later. But just a few points:
I noticed you ignored my point about US medical bankruptcies. What is your answer here?
I noticed you ignored my question if you will not use medicare yourself. Again, I'm interested in your answer.
You seem to care for the suffering of people on waiting lists in other countries and yet seem to ignore the suffering of the uninsured in your own country.
Of course I have heard of hyper-inflation. And sure, I'm worried about it as well. So tell me why republicans are resisting any slight increase in taxes back to previous levels for upper incomes. And please don't use "job creators." Why not close tax loopholes?
There are many things that could be done that could bring down health care costs that are being blocked by lobbyists. Why can't medicare negotiate drug prices?
There is fraud and waste of our tax dollars as well.
We have a lot of problems to tackle
As a healthcare professional, a huge problem I have with single-payer is how unhealthy our population is. Everyday I see people who smoke, drink too much, eat waayyy too much, and don't even care. They are getting lung cancer, type II diabetes and heart disease - all completely preventable diseases which people do not even attempt to prevent. If people are going to be so irresponsible, why should those who are responsible have to pay for them?
The same logic could be applied to people in the military. They choose to put themselves in potential danger, which is completely preventable. Yet they still have the VA. Should we abandon the VA?
They put themselves in harms way to protect our country. People make themselves fat because they have no self control. I don't think you can compare an injured soldier to the mother who uses her food stamps to buy her kids mountain dew and doritos.
Health care is a human right. You cannot use punitive measures to curb obesity by denying health care. You must educate.
Some people make themselves fat, some are victims of poverty, some have health conditions. There are many reasons why people are fat. It is unfair to lump them all together.
Have you ever been fat?
To be honest, no I never have. Like I said, I am full aware of the dangers of it. And you are right, we must educate. Most people are fat because poor decisions. Health conditions that cause obesity are fairly rare. When you see fat people at the store, you can be sure most of them ate themselves that way. Or they smoke or do numerous other things.
Education must come first, then a single-payer system will become more acceptable to some people.
I still think, however, that while everyone is entitled to basic health care, people who are able to afford better health care should be entitled to spend their money as they see fit.
You know when the problems with healthcare began? They began when Congress got into the business of healthcare, back in the 70s Congress, due to some heavy lobbying, passed legislation that allowed HMO Act of 1973 to come into existence, from that time it has been down hill.
I went to a doctor with a cyst on my arm that came up after an injury, I inquired what the cost would be to me as an insured person and was told that the price of the small minor surgery would be $1500.00, take about an hour in the doctors office, but not to worry that my insurance would take care of it except for about $150.00. I also knew of a doctor that didn't take any insurance, nor did he accept government insurances like medicad, he told me that they surgery would take about an hour...when I asked him what the total costs would be for the surgery he told me $75.00. I asked him the difference between his costs and those of my other doctor...he said since he didn't take insurance he didn't have to comply with all the massive amounts of regulations and paper work involved with the insurance process.
Now, the HMO Act of 1972 required all employers to offer HMO coverage and it allowed businesses to deduct the cost of health care premiums from their taxes, but this had the effect of a massive new market for this new type of health insurance, demand went up and so did the price. This had some odd side-effects, one which leaves the unemployed uninsured and takes money that might have been paid to the employees in the form of higher wages paid by the employer with the additional burden on the taxpayer to pay for those deducted premiums. Of course, the unintented consequences of government intervention, as always it is never really considered fully, is that there becomes not only a monopoly market for this type of employer furnished healthcare, but all other premiums increase in price due to that market influencing the overall market for healthcare. Indeed, due to the distortions created by this government intervention, the overall price of not only healthcare insurance, but in the healthcare industry itself. So, judging from the record of government intervention, not only in healthcare, but in every aspect of our economic and to a larger and larger degree our social lives, government interventions usually have consequences that are, in the long run, far worse than the problems they sought to solve in the first place.
Currently, over two-thirds of all healthcare spending in this country is through the government programs of Medicare and Medicaid, as well as other government suplemental programs, all of which are in dire straits as far as funding. The idea that adding a single-payer form of “universal coverage” will in fact solve the problem when this government is technically bankrupt is not realistic, to say the least. At one time in this country medical care was very affordable and during that same period it was the envy of the world, that changed, in large part, to government intervention into the healthcare industry. The more government involvement the less affordable it becomes and the less efficient it becomes. At that time too, there were literally thousands of charity hospitals across this country and those charity hospitals provided healthcare equal to any in this country, but again, the government got involved, they changed various codes and regulations, as well as tax incentives for charity hospitals...guess what happened to all those thousands of charity hospitals?
At one time, doctors could focus on their patients, treating them without all the regulatory paper work, without the necessity of a staff of several people to handle that paper work, without the pressure from BIG PHARMA pushing their drugs, without the constant threat of lawsuits. At one time in this country, most Americans paid cash for their basic medical services and why not, they were affordable and usually only had insurance for only major illnesses and accidents, but that changed with the advent of government intervention into the healthcare market. Like every other market the government meddles in, the prices go way up and the quality goes way down.
Contrary to the hype that is being thrown around by those attempting to lure this country into a more socialized system of healthcare which would increase costs that this country cannot afford and, by necessity lower the quality of healthcare in this country, we need to get back to a free market healthcare system where government involvement doesn’t artificially inflate the cost and where accessibility is far more available to the public. The government is, after all, the very entity that made the healthcare insurance industry boom by its policies, not only that, but the government policies have made the Big Pharma even bigger.
You have greatly oversimplified the reason that health care costs have spiraled. There are numerous reasons.
It can't all be blamed on the government.
I do not view the government and regulation as this constant boogyman that is the source of all our problems, including health care.
Again, I urge you to read that book "Money Driven Medicine."
How old are you may I ask? Will you be refusing care by Medicare since you fear such a socialized system? Medicare is single-payer.
Regarding your point about the paperwork, take a look at the French system of payment. Citizens carry a digital "vital card" that contains their medical records. The French have 67% fewer administrative personnel costs.
Universal health care reduces health care costs by catching illness early as well. By changing the profit incentive to results driven, you can further reduce costs.
Costs for Medicare and Medicaid might be reduced if lobbyists did not stop the government from negotiating drug costs. The US pays much more for the same drugs than other countries.
If you compare what the US spends on health care with our results to other countries, we pay more and get less.
But, thanks for taking the time to write your input and opinions. This is a very important issue and I hope we can all discuss our various viewpoints and maybe even find common ground.
Ha,ha,ha....yeah, take a look at France, they are fearful that they might end up like Greece at this moment. The problem with universal health care is that the countries which have it can't afford it, and according to every internal study done they do not catch problems early, the patients must wait and wait and wait. Since 2009, read the French studies, the soaring costs of maintaining their healthcare system is becoming such an economic burden that they were forced, for the first time to impose "co-pays" in hopes to manage the costs better, it didn't work.
By the way, the French spend 11% of their gross output on healthcare, the U.S. spends 17%. The French universal healthcare has been in the RED since 1989, do you call that sustainable? France, as well as other countries with universal or mixed healthcare systems are facing almost the exact same problems with healthcare costs as the U.S., so why are you touting such a system that doesn't actually perform as you say it does? Why would you support a system that will ultimately restrict actual care, limit access by necessity and in the end cause people to have to wait needlessly for even the most basic care?
The French government has proposed cutting coverage on certain illnesses, reducing coverage on others while trying to maintain some of the more urgent care coverage, hmmmm....doesn't sound like something that most Americans would stand for in this country, in fact, they won't.
Some hospitals in France have had to close their maternity wards due to the fact that they didn't meet the required number of births in order to remain viable under the healthcare system. So, despite all that you are claiming, the wonders of universal healthcare are simply not there...read any internal study done on any country concerning their healthcare and you will find similar issues. Universal healthcare is not what you think nor can it do what you claim.
That 17% includes marketing and advertising costs which would not be spent in a single payer system.
That doesn't really make a good point of argument for a single-payer program. The problem is that a single-payer program would face many, if not all of the same problems that every other country with a similar program faces....NO SUSTAINABLE FUNDING!
yeah, sure.....just ask why most countries that are on single-payer are doing everything they can to get away from that system.
Suggested reading for you:
http://www.amazon.com/Money-Driven-Medicine-Reason-Health-Costs/dp/B000MGAHZU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319830597&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-America-Global-Better-Cheaper/dp/1594202346
I don't want single payer. I want reasonably priced full coverage insurance. Gonna outsource it to the Chinese. Really.
Then you can still push for common ground such as allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices to keep costs down.
The cost of medication has to be addressed.
Most Americans want Obamcare repealed. The numbers would be even worse for a 100% take over of the medical industry.
Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters
October 14-15, 2011
Date
Favor Repeal
Oppose Repeal
Oct 14-15
54%
38%
Sep 30-Oct 1
51%
39%
Sep 16-17
56%
36%
Sep 2-3
57%
36%
Aug 27-28
57%
37%
Aug 19-20
55%
38%
Aug 13-14
54%
40%
Aug 5-6
54%
40%
July 30-31
55%
39%
July 22-23
57%
36%
1000 likely voters where and of what political party? 1,000 is not a very large number to survey.
I'm sure the parents of kids with preexisting conditions who can now get health insurance because of the Affordable Care Act are for it.
So let's just go back to having those kids fend for themselves and having parents go bankrupt trying to pay for medical care for their sick kids. Is that your position?
You obviously know nothing about random sampling or polling. The differrence is well beyond the margin of error.
Why do you think the 2010 elections handed sweeping majorities to the Republicans? Wait until 2012. More of the same, but not before the SUpreme Court declares the while monstronsity of Obamacae unconstitutional.
God bless America.
You're right. I don't know about random sampling or polling. I do however know immorality when I see it.
Something for nothing "forgiveness of debt" is what all the OWSers want. THAT'S immorality.
Now, move those refridgerators and color TVs.