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Forum Post: should we work harder?

Posted 8 years ago on July 19, 2012, 10:58 a.m. EST by flip (7101)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

  1. Netherlands Average annual hours per person: 1,336

Average working hours per week: 25.7

Average wage per hour: $42.67 (4th highest)

2011 unemployment: 4.4%

Workers in the Netherlands enjoy low levels of unemployment, high incomes and one of the smallest proportion of employees working 50 or more hours a week — at only 0.7%. GDP per capita is also third highest among the countries we reviewed.



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[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 8 years ago

And in the Netherlands one can legally smoke pot too!

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

yes - i've been there - pretty cool coffee houses

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Another one they got right.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 8 years ago

People should stop working for the system altogether,. let the bankster house of cards fall in on them. Don't play in their rigged game. Squat some land, grow your own, become completely migratory. ., burn all you ID,. carry no gov. 'papers',. . become invisible. You can't rise up till you reach the bottom,. find the truth.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

and the difference between that and suicide?

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

I was intrigued by these numbers and decided to look around a little. Interesting that 3/4 of working women there only work part time. There is a lot of job sharing and such I guess. Women work an average of 28.4 hours a week and men work an average of 39.2. This site shows the average work week at 34.4 (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/04/average_working_week_gets_shor.php), that was from last year.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

People shouldn't have to work harder. What we need to do is to tax the wealthy harder!

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

It's much better to raise wages for the 99% instead of taxing the 1%. Why give that money to the corrupt Congress to spend unwisely, when the 99% will spend it more wisely? Do you think that Congress will give the proceeds directly to the people who need it most?

If your car was speeding out of control because the throttle was stuck open, would you repair it by installing stronger brakes? Of course not. So why repair the out of control rise in the wealthy's income by braking it with higher taxes?

The obvious solution is to repair the throttle so that the people can adjust the speed to their benefit, not just the 1%.

Because of our many decades of brainwashing, we automatically think the solution to high income is to tax it. We better stop the automatic thinking and switch to reasoned thinking instead.

Raise wages for the 99% instead. Unions, strikes, collective bargaining, and negotiation. Put the power in our hands, not the governments.

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

Dude! The richest 1% own almost 50% of investment capital. Of course they must be taxed. Along with pushing for better use of taxmoney, this is important, at least as a short term goal.

But I agree with most of what you say here. Fighting for better wages (and better workers' rights in general) is also very important. Lots of things can and must be dealt with in order to strip the non-elected financial elite for their power.

Yes, union organizing, strikes, collective bargaining, and negotiation..and also eventually workers' takeover and workplace democracy!

Occupy your Workplace!

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

A short term solution of raising of the highest tax rate I can support. But long term, raising wages is key. Do you think that the government will properly distribute the taxes it collected from the wealthy?

It's much better for the people to control where our money is spent. Raise wages for the 99% instead. Unions, strikes, collective bargaining, and negotiation. Put the power in our hands, not the governments.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

"But long term raising wages is key."

That too, among many other things. In order to build democracy from below, workers' takeover of workplaces, fex is also important in long term perspective.

"Do you think that the government will properly distribute the taxes it collected from the wealthy?"

It depends on the people that are put in charge. There are governments (in Scandinavia f.ex) who can use taxmoney in a relatively good way (at least compared to the US), and in the times we're in now, where corporations and the wealthy have such an enormous power, governments can be used to fight them. But listen, I'm a libertarian socialist / anarchist, I want to dismantle government in the long run; but first the long and hard struggle to dismantle concentrated private power must be most prioritized.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

Since Congress does not properly spend the money it now controls, it will not spend it any more wisely when given more.

The most powerful form of Anarchy is economic, not political. Economic power results in political power. Political power is the branch, economic power is the root that supports the branch.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

work smarter, not harder.


[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

Yea but on the other hand they can't afford a house, a car, a boat, or a motor home. And even if they could, they can't afford the parking.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

you have obviously never been to europe - too bad - you might broaden your thinking - if that's what you call what those squirrels are doing inside your head


[-] 0 points by agkaiser (2476) from Fredericksburg, TX 8 years ago

What's the proportion of CEO pay to average? Are the banks owned by oligarchs and plutocrats? How are campaigns financed? Is their supreme court an old boy's club? Is high speed/quality internet and cell service priced beyond what average consumers can afford? Do banks maximize costs and fees that parasitize economy? Does their government restrain business excesses? How does that work?

For more on dysfunctional economy and culture see: How Does That Work? https://www.createspace.com/3852916

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 8 years ago

If the Dutch have it all figured out why then is:





[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 8 years ago

Where exactly did your data "facts" come from flip?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

my comcast homepage - do you doubt that other work less than we do?

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 8 years ago

I doubt everything I see in print unless it's backed up by completely credible sources and verifiable data. Everything I read in the current news today shows the Netherlands experiencing a recession and barely getting by.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

barely getting by??? have you been to europe? are you aware that other countries live (for the average working person) much better than we do - and have much less poverty (also less rich - but still too many). more vacation, shorter work weeks - the roads are better the cities cleaner - health care free - college free (if you qualify). houses and cars are smaller since they use 1/2 the oil per person we do - have you traveled and seen with your own eyes? do you doubt all the nonsense about this being the greatest country in the world? anyone who has been to europe would know those numbers are accurate.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 8 years ago

When were you last in Europe? (and I mean each individual country that falls under the banner of EU) Were you there as a "tourist" taking in the popular scenes or were you there investigating the people, the poverty, the culture etc?

And, on top of that, how many US cities have you been in? How many states? Are ALL of the roads in the US the same? Their cities equally dirty or clean? All the people exactly the same?

You can compare the worst about this country to the best Europe has to offer all you wish to. But it's a false comparison to anyone with the ability to reason or think for themselves.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

sorry but you have no idea of what the world looks like. there are no trailer parks in germany to say nothing of sweden or denmark etc. i have been to most of the united states and much of europe. traveled back roads and talked to people everywhere. sure there are rods in this country that are better than roads in italy -not many - is thatyour point? i brought a group of 20 swedish kids to the u s to play tennis - on the ride from the airport (nyc) their first question was - "what is wrong with your roads?" anybody who is aware knows that most of western europe lives better than we do here. not the top 1% or maybe even 5% but working people live better because their system supports them. they have more time with their families, more vacation time, less stress and more security in their jobs and retirement. it's changing - moving in the direction of the united states since their capitalists are just as greedy as ours. you can believe the hype all you want - "the greatest country in the world" - but it is not true. open your eyes - travel and look for yourself. talk to people and you will find out. free your mind betsy

[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 8 years ago

I DO know what the world looks like, and while there are no trailer parks in Sweden or Germany etc, there are certainly slums there. Aren't trailer parks just unstacked "projects"?

Western Europe's economies are collapsing BECAUSE their "system" is supporting more of them than it can afford. Their poverty levels are getting awfully comparative to ours and yet YOU want OUR government to engage in the exact same activity that is killing those countries. Why???? What is happening in Europe and elsewhere is proving that it isn't a viable long term plan either.

I must ask though. Instead of traveling everywhere and flying a group of 20 spoiled kids in from such a blessed and prosperous country TO PLAY TENNIS, why didn't you FEED or CLOTHE 20 poverty stricken street urchins from this forsaken country?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

do we have poor in our great country - where would i find them to feed them. no surprise but your response has nothing to do with what i said. is sweden's economy collapsing - i don't think so - the world economy is in trouble because of the banks but that is a different issue - do you think our economy is doing well? go to sweden and talk to people - visit them in their homes and then go to kentucky and drive the back roads - no better yet go to ny state and drive the back roads. and just so you know i did not fly them here - they had enough money to do it themsleves - you are not very bright - or well read or well traveled - go and see the world - it will be good for you. no, on second though stay home and vote tea party - or ron paul or some other ass.

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 8 years ago

From your examples, it would appear that those who are "very bright" or "well read" have no need for punctuation or capitalization, and freely engage in illogical assumptions about total strangers. Bravo!

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

that is the first intelligent thing you have said - i have no need for punctuation or capitalization. it is too bad that you do. i am not great at spelling either but i can think - something you seem to have no talent for. as to illogical assumptions -what you say is - i am looking for a word here and stupid is the best one i think. just plain stupid. it is hard for you to understand that other countries support their people better than we do - so that is the opinion of someone who has never traveled or never read much. which is it - or is it maybe someone who has traveled and read quite a bit but is just plain stupid - betsy ross my ass - she had a brain! how is that for punctuation!!

[-] -2 points by SteveKJR (-497) 8 years ago

So, lets compare what the people in the Netherlands have compared to what the people in the United States have.

Do you see people over there driving $45,000 SUV's or living in $300,000 homes?

I don't think so - it sounds good but the bottom line is the poorest American in this country has a great deal more then the average person living in other countries.

Try to beat that.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

another one who has never traveled - in this country or europe - or if you did you were blindfolded. ok homebody - get in your suv and drive out of nyc for about an hour or so - get off the highway and drive on the country roads for a while - look at the trailer parks with the 15 yr old cars sitting in the driveway of people who work 60 hr weeks - fool - try it no you are not a fool you are a quisling - well maybe both. my hometown in western ny - "The median income for a household in the city was $28,313, and the median income for a family was $35,058. Males had a median income of $29,462 versus $21,682 for females. The per capita income for the city was $15,482. About 18.5% of families and 22.3% of the population were below the poverty line, including 38.0% of those under age 18 and 11.1% of those age 65 or over.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I know western, and northern New York quite well from the years i traversed the Erie and Champlain canals while working on the tugs, and barges out of NYC. Back then (70s-90s) blue collar workers were devastated by jobs being out-sourced from that area. The feeling of despair in many of those communities was very evident. Now some of our best white collar jobs are being sent overseas. I guess my point is, it is easy to see the future for this country on the whole, and it is not bright one.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

How about Canadians? Just today it was announced that the average Canadian has a higher average net worth than the average American for the first time. Gee, I wonder why this is happening now?


[-] -3 points by SteveKJR (-497) 8 years ago

Maybe it's happening because their government leaders know how to create jobs -

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

But I thought it was rich people who created jobs, not government leaders. I am so bloody confused now.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 8 years ago

We have come full circle.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

Maybe they're starting to get it. LOL!

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 8 years ago

I am somewhat concerned that the U.S. may be going the way of the U.K. with its special protection of its financial sector and more young people deciding to go into finance rather than other more socially worthwhile occupations. The Anglo boom had turned into the Anglo bust in weaker regulated areas like aneurysms bursting.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 8 years ago

Government sets the framework. The entrepreneurs, business people, and workers all fill in the framework. Without a good framework, EVERYTHING falls apart but with a big heavy framework, no goodies come out. Canada got the governmental framework right, at least during the financial crisis that had started in 2007 in earnest.

U.K. on the other hand, stayed out of the euro area to preserve their special edge in finance by touting a "light-touch" policy. They would not have been able to commit the nefarious LIBOR fixing if Germany had its way through the EU.

By the way, Germany is still doing rather well although it is strongly regulated with very strong unions. Yes, they have lightened up from years past but they still have pretty strong and sound regulations and they dual-track their youngsters rather than perpetrate the U.S.'s ridiculous mantra, "Everyone should go to college."

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

So you believe in a social democratic government. Cool.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 8 years ago

Is that what it is called? Okay, great, I learned something new! I was just looking at how people fare in different systems and of course I want the best for our good old U.S. of A. I cannot do a real scientific controlled experiment but a comparative or historical study offers the next to the best.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

Excellent, grapes.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 8 years ago

rather than perpetrate the U.S.'s ridiculous mantra, "Everyone should go to college."

Everyone should go to college. College is considerably much more than an expensive tech school for career advancement.

Everyone could gain from the broadening of horizons academia offers. Music appreciation, exploring other cultures in a systematic way, insights into history, economics, politics, psychology, and the sciences that are sorely lacking in our citizenry.

College should be free to all who want to go.

Like the realization that a free public school education was a necessity for us in the 19th century, in todays world a free college education is now necessary for more important reasons.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 8 years ago

"The everyone should go to college" mantra was used for promoting social peace so that the elites can propagate their advantages to a new generation. It was a way to separate those with means from those who do not - if one does not have a college degree, one is prevented from certain more lucrative jobs but that can be chalked up to the meritocratic ideal. If a college education were free to all, there would be clamors for master's degree requirements for those lucrative jobs and so on. The educational establishment of colleges and universities will obviously welcome that as long as the business stays with them and more people attend.

I absolutely agree that for CERTAIN people a college education is a liberating experience worthwhile for a whole lifetime (the most important being a more flexible mind that is capable of absorbing new information critically and adapting itself to new realities). However, for many people, it is just a waste of time and money if they do not get a good job offer out of the college degree, not to mention the often huge schooling debt load. We may be better off if they got good career training for a skillful trade and start saving and investing earlier. An earlier start in making good money gives one vast advantages of financial security in life. Let me be frank about it - anyone who can satisfy their needs reasonably well has the basis for happiness. In our market economy, that means money so a good foundation of money is desirable but of course life is truly much more than that.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Free advanced learning whether college or Technical

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 8 years ago

Absolutely. Everyone benefits... including employers. Its a win/win.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Invest in society it is a natural winner for all.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

LOL - good one - got him playing both sides of the coin.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

Couldn't resist. LOL!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

It can be irresistible to slap an idiot. I don't hold it against your normally pacific and peaceful nature. {:-])

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23369) 8 years ago

: )

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

Another opinion based on no facts. The U.S. is a distant 14th place in GDP per capita. You may see many $45,000 SUV's and $300,000 homes in your area. But to assume all areas in the U.S. are equally well off is a fallacy. We have many more poor than you can imagine.

With 75 million workers making less than $26,000 a year, those $45,000 SUV's are way out of reach for the majority.



[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 8 years ago

It's really working out for them - read the recent post from a Dutch newspaper of June 2012


[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago

Our financial situation is not all that different from the Netherlands. Placing all of the power into the hands of any government is unwise. It's always easier to spend someone elses money.

Raise wages for the 99% instead. Unions, strikes, collective bargaining, and negotiation. Put the power in our hands, not the governments.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 8 years ago

Where will the money for higher wages come from?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 8 years ago
[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 8 years ago

We are very different in size and their way of thinking is completely different then ours. They are having lots of problems in that country right now.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2638) 8 years ago

Obviously you've never been to the Netherlands.