Forum Post: Say something! Advice from a Wall Street executive...
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 11:40 a.m. EST by WSExec
(48)
from Boston, MA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Dear Occupants,
You’re doing it all wrong.
We’ve seen plenty of interviews, YouTube clips, press reports, etc.; and what comes through is a bunch of inspired young people that are unhappy with the way things are and believe that they are starting a movement of change simply because the numbers are growing. Nonetheless, I probably encountered far more angry citizens on my commute this AM than all those combined occupying New York, Washington, Boston, Kalamazoo, the Tundra, etc.. If you keep going on your current path, you’re not going to get much change beyond what gets dropped in a guitar case on the sidewalk.
My point is that your message is not being heard. You seem to think, at least from the interviews I’ve seen and several walks through the encampment, that the message is loud and clear; but the fact (IMO) is that you are all drinking each other’s Kool Aid, it’s not electric (may have acid in it) and there are way too many flavors.
As it stands today, your movement is a camping movement, and the only common message coming through to the real world is that “You are the other 99%.” Heck, I’m an executive on Wall Street and also probably in the other 99%. Still, you have folks out here intrigued, which is a start if nothing else. From an investor’s perspective, you’re all kind of like Pandora (internet radio). There’s something there. It’s interesting to listen to it. You have growing participation. But… you haven’t really figured out how to draw value from the population that you have built short of some nice music.
If you want to get something done and look back on 2011 as the year you actually accomplished something, pick a flavor of Kool Aid and drive some change. You’re not even asking for anything because you don’t really know what you want other than something different. Would you go into a diner and say “I didn’t like the eggs yesterday – give me something different today?”
Organize… Hone a common message… Stop complaining… Put some tangible issues on the table and propose a solution (ask for something). If you’re all saying the same thing and it makes sense, it may actually begin to resonate.
Sincerely (for real),
Intrigued Wall Street Executive
P.S. Don’t wait too long. The occupants who are just searching for a cause probably won’t stick out the coming cold weather.
Dear sir:
You are part of the ever present clamor for official demands and leaders. You, of course realize there are many pretty specific lists of demands and there are many leaders. It's just that none of them are identified as "official". That drives some folks, including you, nuts. Whether you support the movement (I can't tell from your post) or you oppose it, it seems to be your contention that, of only there were official demands that were driven hard, we could accomplish something.
It kind of makes me laugh because this method you describe is a tired old model for change which has rarely worked. In fact, such divisiveness (we know better) is exactly what had gotten us where we are.
Think about this: In four short weeks, the conversation has changed around the country (at moments even the world). That's a pretty big deal. People (regular citizens of all backgrounds) are have discussions that would have been unthinkable a little over a month ago.
But there's something else you're missing. There is a specific tone to much of the dialogue. We, the 99%, who have been a group by definition for a long time (unbeknownst to them) are now waking up to realize that we have many more things in common than we have things that are in conflict. This terrifies the 1%. Why? Because it has been preposterous that we've put up with the 99% being ruled by and exploited by the 1% for so long. Many in the 1% will admit that they can't believe we sat still for so long.
But no more. We are realizing now that together we are greater than the sum of our parts. Once we fully comprehend that we actually have the power, we can make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of weakness.
This lack of blessing a list as official is intentional. Watch the democratic process about to unfold. Stay carefully tuned.
I like you. I have to disagree that goals have never been achieved by actually having a goal / agenda and driving it. However, you've got moxie and good communication. Maybe you should come up with the plan.
You should read about the civil rights movement in the USA. Yeah, some legislation got passed that was real specific (Civil Rights Act of 1964, Civil Rights Act of 68, of 60, of 57)...
Do you think that you could have gone to any MLK protest and concluded, based on what you saw there, what would be the specific contents of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
Please.
My plan would be to do what's already been said if you read this forum regularly:
Let the general assemblies form as millions of people are talking, debating and joining in the movement.
General assemblies go to national conference organized by executive committee. National General Assembly formed, one man and one woman for each congressional district.
The 99% (represented by National General Assembly) put forth a list of requested changes.
If those changes are made (you can pretty much guess the groups of speciic demands at this point) then great. If they are not, then we do one, the other or a combination of the following:
A - run our own candidates and win the congressional seats so we end up implementing the changes we initially requested of others.
B - do THIS (please read both links carefully :)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
I'd run with answer "A" If the movement really gains momentum and can simplify the state of things for the average guy on the street to really understand how pathetically ineffective government it, there's a shot. Answer "B" is the platform and the agenda.
I think what you describe here is exactly how it's going to go. The challenge, of course, is to maintain the level of passion and dedication through the long haul since it will obviously take time to do what your describe and make this stick. There are all types of people involved and we need all types. If this moment shifts into "process" gear without providing an outlet and narrative that is satisfying an empowering to those that thrive on that, then we'll have real trouble. The organizing I've been involved in sometimes lost support when the "process folks" who thrive on process took over. Those who were used to marching in the streets got board.
I don't worry about this too much here because I know there are people with superior leadership and creative skills lending their hands behind the scenes. I know that the various General Assembly committees will provide all sorts of outlets, gatherings, marches, sit in opportunities etc. and these are VERY VERY IMPORTANT. We have to remember that this is what got this movement going I the first place.
We have to "keep it real" all along the way or we run the danger of both the outspoken marchers and middle America getting board and unoccupying Wall St.
I don't think any of the negative scenarios here are likely. I think our intelligence and creativity will prevail. Clear as a bell for me.
You know, you are not the first to suggest such things. Jefferson, too, wanted a more direct form of democracy. Why? Because he was a political purist.
See how long having a lack of focus and leadership will last. Already you have protesters stealing from one another, it won't be long before you're all fighting for the Conch as you are the precious.
And here's the declaration:
nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/
Thank you!
and you wrote a strong post. +1 from me.
Thanks. Please help continue the dialogue at http://occupywallst.org/forum/to-those-who-think-occupy-wall-street-needs-offici/ donee can spread the word. I really want people to discover there is light at the end of the tunnel if we take our time and do this right. This can be a revolution. I used to be one of those clamoring for demands. And I still can't wait to see them form. But I realize it is a timing issue. Now is the time for seeing what we have in common and gathering strength rather than entering into potentially divisive dialogue about specific official demands. I am absolutely convinced this cake will be delicious if we allow it to fully bake.
I've got a few threads here I'm debating back + forth with as well. Its time consuming, but Yum! Lets bake a world-class great cake.
Right on!
............
Capitalism has been usury and speculation using Adam Smith as a human shield. Adam Smith wrote in the context of relationships between human beings who own their own means of production.
Socialism has been tarred with association with states that act rather more like a single mega-corporation with a totalitarian leader than what it was meant to. What it was meant to do is put the means of making one's living back in the worker's hands and keep it there. We keep talking about it because the economy's been rigged to keep everyone but CEOs and shareholders racing to the bottom.
These are labels with mountains of propaganda. Neither matter unless when you ask yourself, "Am I truly participating in the power that governs me?", you are comfortable with your well-considered answer.
"Socialism without capitalistic freedom & incentives will fail just as miserably as Capitalism without regulation has just demonstrated"
What we have had is not capitalism at all. Try again.
Also, I do not want a democracy, which by definition is mob rule. I would much rather have a republic.
Mob rule is ochlocracy, not democracy.
Athenian democracy by sortition never resulted in a single instance of 'mob rule'. People often point to the execution of Socrates as democracy run a muck(mob rule), but Socrates him self would disagree, he knew damn well what he was doing at trial and had many opportunities to save his own life, but he was willing to die to make a point.
Also Aristotle would have disagreed with you on republic. He would say that it is oligarchy by stealth, and that an out in the open arisocratic hereditary ruling class would be healthier. Personally I think both Aristotle and Plato were just butthurt about Socrates, and that Socrates rolled over in his grave when his pupils advocated anything other than democracy.
the point is that a republic protects the minority, where as a pure democracy does not. in a pure democracy, the minority is at the mercy of the majority.
When the minority threatens the majority, or as today the entire planet, that's preferable? I don't think so. But again I ask you or anyone else to show me where the lower class athenians ever once ran rough shot over a wealthy individual without good reason.
without good reason eh? we can pick and choose which laws are ok.
re: as of today.... seriously, most people on this board blame the evil rich people for bribing politicians and not the politicians who take the bribes. wtf is with that.
You don't win without either being famous in the first place, and or taking lots of money. That's wtf is with that. Hence sortition>election.
"....What we have had is not capitalism at all. Try again...."
I agree ... but that does not mean the statement is in error... no?
I agree with the part about socialism failing with out capitalistic freedom and incentives.... but that sort of socialism just sounds like a variant of the corporatism that OWS is currently protesting
well fix it ;)
if it were only that easy
it is simple though, liberty and property rights. that is all government has to do.
maybe... needs regulation (rules) ... and willingness to enforce them also...
ha regulations and rules.
that is why we have laws. good lord, if they'd stop pandering to their donors and just enforce the laws that are on the books, that would be half the battle.
yep... that's why we need to clean house... I personally know some of these guy's ..but they played the game or closed eyes while it went down.. they need to retire too....
It appears what you actually would have is word nazism.
Frankly, your assertions about what "capitalism" isn't and what "democracy" isn't are simply illiterate.
i know the internets are difficult so here you go:
http://tinyurl.com/3qrw4yz http://tinyurl.com/3c9ewhj
I have heard these ignorant memes before. The problem is, as I am well acquainted with ancient and modern literature, I see far beyond such facile nonsense.
Indeed, I even understand what function these memes serve in ideological conflict. I suggest you do a google search for "thought-stopping cliche".
Also, try a dictionary definition of capitalism and democracy. See how there are more than one definition for each of them? That fact, alone, invalidates your inane, disruptive line of bullshit. But you would benefit from reading each one carefully, and incorporating it into your sadly deficient cognitive structures.
congratulations on your continual herping and derping
socialism will never work because it's base purpose is for everyone to work together. The second we stop doing that, socialism fails. If there is any opposition to socialism, it fails. In socialism, everyone can work for each other, and all get what they need. In capitalism, not everyone can work for themselves, or get what they need.
You're way oversimplifying Socialism.
Peoplism could be a viable alternative. Humanism. Lifeyism. Stop and realize we are all in stupidism while trying to come up with an ism for life of eartheyism. If we have to have an ism....how about volunteerism?
Indeed I am. It's a very simple point that i'm trying to make. Socialism needs everyone to work together. If they don't, poof. No more socialism. The end result being, it will never work not because people don't want it to work or that it can't - people are afraid of and hate socialism for some reason and the fact that those feelings alone exist, socialism never will.
You don't know what socialism is. You aren't familiar with historical socialist movements. You're just repeating some phrases you heard -- expanded out somewhat.
Come join the working group and express concerns:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/
Just be aware, there are many people out there who are trying to drive a wedge between OWS and this 99%declaration group. The banks and incumbent criminals would be delighted if that happened.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/
That's insane - why would anyone try to create partisanship within a movement with common goals? Unless you mean the evil ones! I'll check it out.
The message is the collusion between Wall Street and government. How hard is that to understand?
The banks got their bailout- now maybe it is time for a middle class bailout. Many middle class people are suffering w/ student loan debt. One of my personal demands is relief from private (commercial) student loans (we should be allowed to discharge them). Many of us are drowning in student loan debt. PRIVATE student loans are a big problem- they are offered at high interest rates, and they have a lot of fees. Predatory lenders lent out millions of dollars several years ago- and they were poorly regulated.
Student loans were not disimilar to what went on in the mortgage market with regard to securitization. They were bundled, diced up and sold off to investors. Not to stir the pot too much, but this is what it bought for the guy that cornered the market - http://www.superyachts.com/yacht-charter/meteor-570/ - that would be way into the 8 figures if not 9.
From what I gather, there was a backstop organization functioning, The Education Resources Institute, which was a non-profit guarantor of Student loans that would step in and pay defaulting student load, (probably more benefit to investors rather than loanholders). However, it was wiped out by the downturn as defaults went through the roof. Here's what they say today: "Due to unprecedented market conditions, TERI has suspended all loan programs. We are working with our lender partners and servicers to minimize disruption to borrowers and schools."
With roughly $1 trillion in student loans outstanding, many are classifying this as a next shoe to drop.
Valid letter... please check my thread titled "Resource Based Economy...this is the Solution" or take 18 minutes to watch this link for the TED conference... this is a "direction" which is emerging http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
Tangible issues can be found here:
http://www.fixwallstreet.org
http://www.plainsite.org
You also may want to track down a user in here somewhere ("LobbyDemocracy") who is looking at taking a non-traditional approach of building a Lobby for the 99% and polling his community to establish which issues are most relevant to push through traditional legislative channels. Plainsite may dovetail nicely with this approach.
Interesting - I like Plainsite, but it may be more effective if it was more of a wiki or provided a better forum for discourse and debate (maybe I just couldn't figure out how to collaborate). It would be good to leverage the ideas of many in order to hone down the solution.
Apologies in advance, but I couldn't get all the way through your "Held Hostage" whitepaper. Decreased financial regulation seems to run counter to most of the views around here. I get the competitive barriers issue, but you can form a de novo bank for $250K. It sort of seems like an outlier to the other issues and solutions on your list.
So it is kind of bizarre that I find myself being an advocate of decreased financial regulation given the current environment in which I think most institutions are in need of more--but it's clear that not all regulations are created equal. Just about everyone agrees that the regulations on the books for money transmitters make absolutely no sense. It seems like a minor issue except that banks are going to become software companies over the next five to ten years as branches disappear and functionality becomes increasingly embedded in smartphones--which means that if other companies can't compete, we'll be stuck with old technology and high fees, which is exactly what we're seeing now.
PlainSite is designed to be a wiki-type environment, where people can collaborate. You do need to sign up first in order to anything beyond post an issue, though. We designed it that way so that you don't have people voting for things with fake profiles.
Thanks for taking a look!
we need a wiki and serious organization. consensus taks time. please be patient.
Keep plugging - I hope this gets really loud and clear before the election. Find a candidate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_access.
If the movement grows, you should have no problem getting someone on all 51 ballots.
I hear you Intrigued Wall Street Executive and I am trying to provide the means for pulling together and helping this movement find a voice and a direction. I am founding a lobbying organization designed to represent the interests of the majority. We will be polling our membership to determine which issues we should take up, and we will represent any issue that receives 65% support or opposition.
This method will both enable the majority to find a slate of issues that we agree on and provide the data to back up those efforts on Capitol Hill. If you are interested please visit www.lobbydemocracy.com for more information. I also have a fairly active thread running to discuss the organization at http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/i-have-spent-1000-hours-on-this-solution-please-ta/
That’s interesting, fight fire with fire and give ‘em some of their own medicine in the process. It seems to me that so many people involved in this movement that have had to paint things black or white to understand very complex issues that they lose sight of embedded and matured constructs that currently influence if not dictate and define the legislative process.
Become lobbyists. Plenty will try to crucify your idea (that gets black paint). It actually may be more edgy than me speaking out constructively (in this forum). You’re right on. Maintain your ideals and leverage the structures in place to set change in motion. Seems more logical than theorizing about how the re-invent the wheel without a plan. There are a number of foundations that back radical groups and movements. Get some momentum, and you’ll probably find a tailwind.
Always admirable to find someone willing to work him(her)self out of a job for the right reason.
Thank you for your support. I believe that the beginning part of the climb will be the hardest part. Convincing people to join the organization on the basis of what it can become rather than what it is, is quite the challenge. I do believe, however, that if we can scrap our way to respectable membership early that support from other organizations and media coverage have the possibility of providing a pretty strong tail wind. I wish you all the best and I hope to hear from you in the future either here, or through Lobby Democracy.
if we ignore all the claims about hippies, anti antisemitism, communism, the main agenda of occupy wall street is to make a voice against the government about the economic disparity and unemployment in America, there may be communists or even hippies in the crowd, but the main ideal is to correct capitalism, not to remove it, america cannot exist without it. Critics are saying that they must come forward with demands, but they are telling what is the problem and it is the government's job to solve them, take an example, it there is some problem with a product( here the economy) it is the job of the supplier to rectify it, the customers just 'demands' that the product be rectified, that is the 'demand'. The general public is not understand how the economy works, it is the guys who make the regulations(or deregulation) who know how it works. So occupy is more or less also about the rights and equality in American economy. If the government is least interested in addressing these issues, it is the government's responsibility to come up with some action plan, and let the people see through it, and accept it, not the other way round, so all this demand for a 'demand' is just hogwash,
I know people will say I'm trying to redirect the finger away from Wall Street, but when was the last time the government solved a problem? They are incapable of legislating change. It doesn't matter how much or loudly you complain.
Assume the movement is even taken as a call to action by Congress. What are the ramifications of them sitting on their hands and not changing anything even if they put on a good show that they are trying?
Boycotting buses worked in the 50s? The Government is not going to come up with the solution.
Government is the structure. This structure, just like a house, has to be maintained. Corporate america and our incumbent leaders have destroyed the roof and 4 walls of the house. Our form of government has a solid foundation and needs new leaders that can make decisions without having to worry about the ramifications of a loss of corporate money.
Let's look at this logically.
It is doubtful that this person works on Wall Street. If they do not, then they are a liar. We should not take advice from a liar.
If they do work on Wall Street, then they are part of the problem, responsible for the meltdown, and therefore an unsuitable source of advice. Their way of thinking is simply wrong. Any advice they give would be wrong. They are simply incompetent.
If they really want to help, they should make this suggestion at a general assembly meeting.
Either way, I hope I have shown conclusively why this post should be ignored.
Your contraposition is flawed if you want to play logic games. To get to the point you are making you need 2 propositions to be true – 1) He works on Wall Street and 2) All people who work on Wall Street are bad. Bad = “part of the problem” and “responsible for the meltdown” in your words.
Firstly, you are obviously skeptical that I even work on Wall Street, which would destroy your logic chain from the start. I assure you that I am not “a liar” on the topic of my employment.
The problem is that you assume that all people that work on Wall Street are simply bad – a tight group involved in a conspiracy to defraud the public. If this was true, it would be the biggest conspiracy of all time, since the financial services workforce is about 6 million people and those that you probably consider “Wall Street” are hovering at roughly a million. We must all be evil, working together. Your logic shows nothing conclusively.
I may make suggestions at the general assembly once I better understand the game plan. Right now you want change – for good reason as I’ve said in the past. But OB wanted change. In fact, “change” was the foundation of his platform. Most people voted for him, but when the rubber hits the road failure to execute on change has his approval rating below (40%). We must have gotten to him.
Let me go thru this again for you, slowly.
Hope that helps. I think we have other topics to focus on. TCI from here on.
The obvious message that has been buried is that 1) we need reform of Wall Street and Bank Practices. Some folks have written detailed posts on this but it is lost on this site and there appears to be no leadership because (I guess) no one wants leaders. Other major reform: 2) Taxes (rich pay much more). I advocate for two more: 3) Electoral Reform (a Voters Bill of Rights so to speak, 1) Eliminate Electoral College, 2) Public Financing of Elections; 3) No advertising, etc., 4) Sunday Voting, 5) Paper trail for all electronic voting, etc. (about 6 more); 4) Reform legislative process (eliminate filibuster, other parliamentary procedures that forestall any progress on bills); 5) Jobs, Training & education bill financed by additional taxes (see #1). This is a basic starting point. I would recommend trimming of Federal bureaucracies as we know there is massive waste (maybe across the board); also, ending wars in Middle East, cuts in military spending, and enforcement of laws on books to prevent and punish executive actions without congressional authority. There are a lot of good ideas here but this site is really poorly organized as probably there is not money in it. I would suggest separate category for ideas vetted somehow. Obviously, there are a lot of young people and idealists here who are very emotional about things but have not given much thought to a lot. No disrespect here, but we did need better discrimination and organization and some elected leaders. Otherwise, this whole thing will blow over, just possibly.
You should send you organizational suggestions to general@occupywallst.org.
Increased regulation in financial services (banking, trading, investment banking, etc.) is a fait accompli, people in tents or not. We watch that closely here for obvious reasons. This is not to say that there is no opportunity to influence it with the right message and movement, but you must really understand the regulatory structure in place before going activist on FINRA and the SEC.
Generally, I also agree with the other reforms but...
I fear that eliminating (versus reforming) the electoral college paves the way to a scrapping of the Republic and a move to mob rule - I favor pushing power down to the states and municipalities. Perhaps we move away from winner-takes-all in each state. With regard to elections - take the money out. Either cap it or provide funding but level the playing field. No advertising? I prefer tighter regulation on PAC spending, but we're now beginning to bump up against the 1st amendment.
Taxes and wealth redistribution obviously need to be addressed. I like "use taxes," but that's not a solution to the problem and weighs too heavily on the lower half without broader reform.
As a free market kind of guy, I'm also finding myself increasingly conflicted on the topic of protectionism. We basically sold out with regard to trade (thanks to Nixon for kicking that off). Not everything needs to be cheap and disposable - I still have pants that are 20 years old. Unfortunately this has become engrained in our culture.
Education is appalling and shows how short-sighted we are as a nation. It needs to be a top priority as does re-education in concert with policy to repatriate jobs.
I wish I had the answers / solutions to all these issues. After a bottle of wine at the dinner table, we're usually pretty fired up that we've solved them, but then we wake up. I do know that we (the country) have to stop burying ourselves in unsustainable debt and put in a legislative process that can actually move things down the road. You all (which may include me) probably have the opportunity and support to establish a new party and drive change from the inside.
The electoral college is totally unnecessary and would not change anything. Other countries ban advertising. Instead, mandate 12-124 debates, interviews, other opps for candidates in all available media. Electoral college was just another strategy to prevent more democracy. The 17th Amendment allowed for direct election of Senators which few people even realize. That is how limited our Republican govt. actually was. Prior to the passage of the 17th, senators were chosen by state legislatures. If we are going to truly see if a more Democratic system works (as everyone in this country essentially preaches), then lets get rid of the mechanisms that get in the way. Re: Education. The problem here is much more related the the society and what consumer capitalism means sociologically. That is to say, the economic system works to promote disintegration of the fabric and essence of stability which is necessary to provide foundation for child-rearing. E.G. When parents are chasing money for consumer products that are no longer NEEDS, then the energy previously put into REAL child rearing has been redirected and proper socialization does not occur. The quick short term solution as much as it will work given this reality, is to do ONE THING: Make all children proficient in reading and writing before they enter middle school. Reading involves comprehension. Writing has to do with summarizing, analyzing, synthesizing, clarifying, etc. It has to do with thinking. We Can also spend much more time on oral skills and argumentation and dialogue. If every child were proficient in reading, speaking, writing.....many of the other academic problems would be resolved. Of course, also basic math which is not taught very well at the elementary level (too many teachers do no really each it!). The economic system is going to suffer immensely if not collapse within a relatively short time period. I would not be surprised if we seen this drop within the next year. If Reforms to not come about soon, things are really going to spiral downward. There are a lot of people who are on the edge, not too far away from losing everything. Things are far worse than people suspect, esp. the pundits.
Boy could I spout on about education for a long time. My wife (the good half) is a reading specialist. While I am obviously evil because I work on the Street, I've absorbed a bit of perspective on the system. Your right, there are plenty of problems to solve, but we need to focus as much on the future.
The dynamic you allude to with regard to "REAL child rearing" being re-directed is facinating. I think you might enjoy this article - http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/09/girl-power/gorney-text. It outlines a dramtic (almost unbelievable) shift in Brazil's birthrate and the country's lifecycle context around it. I don't remember the intricacies, but keep in mind that Brazil is where we were 50 years ago. I doesn't provide answers, but it is an interesting overlap with what happened here that got us to where we are today.
I have read the article. By the way, and you will get a gigantic kick out of this. The sociological analysis is based on understanding of the Marxist dialectic which hardly anybody really understands. The actual dialectic logic is taken from Hegel (not really important except to stop the panting when a Wall Street denizen hears the name, Marx). To be ultra concise: picture it this way, a human is the 'seed' of the society and there is a dialectical relationship, a movement, between the individual & the society. So, if the society is crumbling, so too the individual and vice versa. The critical analysis of capitalism (and reality) is that it has contradictions and these contradictions move history forward.
To take one example so you can understand: The system needs to promote consumerism as a primary method of perpetuating itself. Hence, the socialization process necessary to do this functions so as to make 'better consumers.' The qualities of the perfect consumer are totally contradictory to the qualities of the perfect worker. So, the perfect consumer is impetuous, emotional, and not particularly rational. or responsible. The perfect worker, on the other hand, has to have opposing qualities: responsible, work habits, rational, etc. This reflects a major ongoing dynamic within American culture and consumer capitalism in general. The dynamic also explains the deterioration of social structures and agencies like education and the family structure. You have to read this several times and think about it to grasp the depth of the insight of Marx. Forget all the communism and critique of exploitation and predictions and the dictatorship of the proletariat. His real work was in sociology. One of the few people who grasped what Marx was doing was Erich Fromm (Escape From Freedom, etc.). Anyways, it is an absolutely brilliant insight into the dynamics of society and history. It is often referred to as dialectical materialism but the profundity of it is lost as it has been widely misinterpreted and slandered.
They have they are about caos and revolution I've been there
With all due respect, the OWS movement does not really need to develop a clear message. Their need for help is an opportunity for Wall Street to create tremendous wealth and opportunity, so it makes sense for Wall Street to listen carefully. I have been listening closely to this movement. They want a number of things; including, but not exclusively, high paying careers, an end to class inequality, real representation in Government, a chance to participate in the benefits of wealth and to create wealth.
I have determined that scarcity of opportunity and scarcity of resources is their basic general problem; the problem is, that scarcity of opportunity and resources has highlighted the underlying power inequity, between the rich and everyone else, in the U.S.A. If the protestors were given abundant opportunity and access to resources, the chance to obtain the American Dream, they would go home happy and forget that billionaires and political insiders run the show. Given the clear need for brevity, in this post, let me sum up the solution, generally so. We need high paying careers, so Americans can settle down and make babies and so we can attract the World to our shores. With moderate population growth, MBAs, like me, will have the best opportunity to optimize shareholder value off of activities conducted within the United States. Sincerely, MJ Morrow
Your comment is well taken and your support appreciated. I agree that coalescing and presenting a more coherent platform would be helpful and would not hijack or insult the movement in any way. In fact, I have suggested (thus far only online but I intend to go to meetings to voice this opinion) enlisting liberal economists to aid the movement's written agenda. You don't need to recreate the wheel here. I do not have difficulty hearing the demands of the protesters but you have to listen and learn. And the public wants it spoon-fed. OK. I get that and say why not? It gets support, it gets direction. The movement needs to speak not only to itself but to those angry people you met on your way into work this morning.
http://thevenusproject.com/
Agreed, they haven't "really figured out how to draw value from the population that you have built", so let's start the war against Injustice by starting our own banks to double the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers, for many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 1% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves, and thus doubling our income from Bank Profits which are 40% of all Corporate Profits; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo
Join http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/ because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Online Congress, and related “new” Businesses, REPLACING the "old" Congress, and related “old” Businesses, according to your current Occupations & Generations, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet, a political opportunist, just like today; what's important is the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing Power & Group Investment Power. In this, sequence is key, and if the correct mathematical sequence is followed then it results in doubling the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers from today's Bank Profits, which are 40% of all Corporate Profits.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 1% Management System of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupations & Generations.
So JOIN the 2nd link, and spread the word, so we can make 100,000 support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
Oops...didn't finish that.... An educated person not only learns to read, but learns to read between the lines. I'm sure I'm quoting someone on that.
You have made your point but I think it is you that has it all wrong. To start, the movement is not just young people searching for a cause. There are many older and even people of retirement age that have joined the protests all over the country. The focus is pretty clear: the people are against corporate greed, wall street control, and money controlling politics. All of which are intertwined. Each individual has been affected differently by this and that is why you are seeing so many different signs. They may express their frustrations differently, but in the end, everyone is focused on the same thing.
Before any movement or organization can begin to make demands, they have to first gain the attention and respect of the media and lawmakers. OWS has done just that...you can't argue with that, or you would not have even bothered to post your opinions. I hope that your advice shows that you are rooting for the movement, and not that you feel you are above the protestors because of your position on wall street. This is no time to make enemies...sincerely.
As fagr as the movement goes, keep this in mind: an educated person
What I said (or meant) was that is the image coming through the media. Identify those that are capable of sincerely and eloquently delivering the message and get them out there in the front. The 16yo Maoist is not you best spokesperson, but he's speaking. Regarding the "PS" about those looking for a cause, you can ignore it, but they are fickle and will become disinterested as it requires more effort to move forward. You know better than I how much of the occupants fit this bill, but they are visible.
Here's a plan.
Corporations have too much power, they need to be broken back down into their individual companies. This would also eliminate the notion of too big to fail.
They will no longer be allowed to buy up smaller companies in the attempt to drive everyone else out of business.
Manufacturing must come back home.
The stock market system is stupid and does not benefit those who actually do the work. The employee's are the only one's who should be getting paid for higher profits. They do the work, they should reap the rewards.
No one needs to make more than 100,000$ a year to live like a king. There needs to be a salary cap, universally regulated. 200,000$ is more than enough to let anyone live very well indeed.
Over the past 60 years or so, just as an example, the cost of a decent hamburger has gone from around 10 cents to 2$ or more, that's 2000% inflation if my math is correct. The quality of product goes down, while the prices keep going up, all in the name of profit margins. This needs to stop.
These are just a few of the things that need to change.
C'mon, people. WSExec is trying to be helpful, and I, as an OWS supporter, agree with him/her. Please consider what he/she says.
The main point is that Money is to influential on the political system. Our needs and ambitions get ignored because politicians know that a handful of wealthy donors offers more primary and secondary benefits than a grateful constituency. We know that we can not alter human nature on a large enough scale to flip that scenario, so we want laws in place which level the playing field for all citizens to have equal sway in this democracy.
Now you're talkin' - time for some political reform
thank you
How about this for some focus.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/bank-america-forces-depositors-backstop-its-53-trillion-derivative-book-prevent-few-clients-dep
Yup - a little shady. BofA scratched the Fed's back by picking up Merrill, and now its payback time. Kind of gets back to the point of who's driving the ship in Government. Hope you don't have individual deposit accounts worth more than $250K.
I wouldn't keep $5 in that bank. FDIC is not going to bail out BAC for 1 trillion. All those depositors are going to lose big time, that's when the great run on all banks will begin.
You and your Corporations do not create jobs in fact you have effectively decreased them. Demand creates jobs.
OK - let's say there is excessive demand for forks. You (the budding entrepreneur) have an innovative idea for building the best fork ever. But you need materials, you need a facility, you need equipment, you need to hire people, you need distribution, etc. Basically, you need capital. Where does that come from? No financing mechanism, no jobs.
This is a standard talking point again. You’re missing the point, income fuels demand and too much is now on the top again.
A totally separate point than where jobs come from, but I certainly agree with your view on income distribution. You should take a look at this site from a socialogy professor at UC Santa Cruz. It gives you more charts, tables, facts and figures on the wealth divide than you will know what to do with - http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
I invite people to review this plan - and imagine the possibilities.
http://www.osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx
Proposed 99% AGENDA
Punitive Legal Reform: Tighten finance regulation for more federal accountability Make bail-out recipients accountable financially and legally for unethical actions Compel banks to sell residential assets with low-interest loans as part of this accountability
Financial Reform / Expenses: Invest in clean energy technologies Rebuild Veterans education and jobs programs
Financial Reform / Revenues: Restructure Social Security for long term viability Reform Medicare and Medicaid for waste and fraud Reprioritize budgeting for international military presences, trimming back and relying less on human resources Reshape tax laws to a more equitable balance Reform immigration laws to allow for foreign labor support and pathways to citizenship
Federal Support of Job Growth: Increase foreign tariffs Rebuild Veterans education and job incentive programs Invest in improving America’s infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc.)
Political Reform: Pursue dialogue or obstructionist politicians will be removed from office Lower the anger rhetoric and start quoting facts, not fears Mandate uniform re-districting laws with non-partisan community oversight
Social Reform: Support education to make America more competitive in the future Reform immigration laws to allow for foreign labor support and pathways to citizenship Fund cultural exchange programs for college age youth
Ok here is the flavor that everyone agrees upon.
You sir are human and have DNA so therefore you have the rights extended to the people. YOUR CORPORATION IS NOT A PERSON SO THEREFORE DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHTS EXTENDED TO THE PEOPLE. THAT MEANS NO VOTE, NO MONEY TOWARDS CAMPAIGNS, AND DOZENS OF OTHER RIGHTS.
Your corporation will have the limited provisional rights put into the Constitution and the Bill of RIghts of the United States. We will find the lost 11 Amendments provisions written by Thomas Jefferson and Madison that determines that Corporations shall not have the same rights as people and get it put into the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
We will end the tyranny caused by corporate bankers in the United States and regulate and limit powers influencing our government.
Now MR.Wall Street Executive what do you think of that as a demand. You know there are alot of liberal, moderate, and conservative people It talked to that will stand behind this proposal. I want to know if you stand behind it!!!
Looks like I need to hit Google tonight. I was only aware of 2 lost amendments - neither relate to the rights of businesses. In principle, I agreed with your flavor. "Government for the people" but it is hard to boil down over 200 years of drip castles that make up our laws into 3 tenets. I acknowledge that this is what I've asked you to do, so I get where you're coming from. I also do believe that we need to remove special interest groups from the equation, but a constitutional lawyer I am not.
the Wall Street Exec is right and trying to help and you all don't get it. i just saw an MSNBC interview with two supposed OWS leaders and all they could say, in essence, was "we want shangri la for all"; duh ain't gonna happen. HOW? the Constitution gives us the right to pursue it; no more. well get real. yes there's a system in place; use it. do you think the Civil Right's Act of 1964 got passed without a focus? without using the system? without accepting what is .? get behind a clear cogent initiative that current politicians (yes politicians) won't be afraid to support, but will be afraid to ignore. most of the nonsense posted here is ear candy, gee don't i sound like a profound philosopher stuff. believe or not people in the system want to help; there are actually people who know more than you. when the shooting stats and the blood flows how many will stick it out like in Egypt, Libya, Syria etc. seems like you have a pretty low pain threshold; you're just whining and expect those in power to take you seriously. lets here what your manifesto is not silly "Demands". what steps are being taken to solidify a broad, diverse leadership including those have lived in the "system'. I don't hear anything. SAY SOMETHING!
Hello people,
Thank you for being you and for being there. You represent a mighty force about to be unleashed. Yours is the power to become better, to reach for new heights to a place where you haven't been before. You have the power to become a better person, to push this idea forward and upwards all the way to those who yield power. The goal, is that government, business, all institutions will evolve for the better. They would have no other choice.
The change will come from us, from the bottom up...
with grace, fas fas
We are organizing. Organizing in a direct democracy is much more time consuming than organizing in a hierarchy. Much takes place at Liberty Park that is not seen here.
We are effectively organizing a "mock" govt. inside of our own govt. One that can be used to most accurately represent all of those involved and bring us together in a unified voice of "These are our "demands"".
Yeah but if OWS protestors really just say, "Rich people (ie your boss and his ilk), please feed the bottom of the pyramid, and give us a chance to prosper too"... that would completely go against the philosophy of the plutocrats. They feel they WON the against their competition (other human beings). Why should they give away the advantage of complete financial domination, when by it they can enjoy Pharaoh-like privileges in our society? In other words, does it make sense from the perspective of human nature to allow your competition to rise up so that one day you or your descendents might end up back at the bottom of the pyramid? There are plenty of intelligent people who are part of the 99% right now that are ambitious and daring enough to challenge the current plutocracy in a heartbeat... except they are economic oppressed and kept from those opportunities. They are disenfranchised by the policies of the 1% to keep other competitors from fairly taking away their advantage.
Of course, if the 99% were to organize a formidable resistance, then the <1% would probably use their vast resources to influence the policy and actively try to crush such a resistance. This is how revolutions begin, and how rebellions are crushed.
I have to agree! There needs to be a message and some positivity out of this movement before it falls apart or else everything will remain the same. Sage advice from an informed individual, thank you WSExec
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saturday-Night-Politics/194650163906116
One Solution: Banks should absorb all debts incurred from selling of foreclosed homes, if the difference in debt and saleprice is based on the unethical ballooning of house values. Let the people walk away debt free. Banks should not hold people responsible for their unethical decision-making!
WSExec, the obvious question in response to you intrigue is the following: which Kool Aid do you drink, and why?
There are people involved in OWS who have studied and worked for social/political change for years, who know the history of past struggles, who understand the new realities of the internet and cameras and Arab Spring -- in other words, people who have a specialist's education in how these things work.
This jackass, on the other hand, thinks because he makes money he has something real insightful to say about anything and everything. He probably doesn't have any knowledge of any social movement in history, aside from what was required reading in his MBA course. If he does -- he doesn't show it.
Guess what, "Intrigued Wall Street Executive" -- we've heard all of that shit before. You don't have anything special to offer here.
No offense, but what I have to say is what I set out to say - You're message is not coming through yet. At least not clearly. Simplify it, crystalize it, and folks will listen.
I'm not your enemy, so stop the name-calling. You lose credibility and compromise your own objectivity.
Really?? You're an "executive" and you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're"???
You have nothing to say that has not been said before. You are just repeating the shit you heard in the corporate media. Here is what Glenn Greenwald said in response to the people whose phrases you are repeating:
"Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power—in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions—is destroying financial security for everyone else?"[67]
That quote has been up on wikipedia's page for OWS for weeks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street
Did you read that page?
What you don't get is that idiots who get all their information from NBC are the ones being marginalized now. So if you're really too clueless to know what the protests are about, you're a dinosaur on the way out. The internet routes around damage, and today that means it routes around NBC. Hence why, in the first week after OWS started, Americans flooded onto the forums of British newspapers which were the only ones covering them.
OK – let’s break this down. You think yourself a radical (more so a revolutionary), hence the name. But you are no Robespierre. He was eloquent, compelling, listened to the pulse, aligned his thoughts and delivered a clear, concise and compelling message that drew people into his cause. You do not, relegating yourself to clipping quotes of others, and entering conversations with a hot head letting your emotions cloud the point and purpose of the forum.
If you think for a second that you’re are a better judge of what is coming through to the general public than I, you must be (pick an expletive). I’m out here, and you’re in there. Sure, you understand the problem(s). I understand the problems. If you listened, I never said that I didn’t. All I said was that you need clarity of message to get people to listen.
The general population is not overly intellectual or very smart at all for that matter (blame the ideals of society and our education system). They will listen, they will support if the message is clear. Building support purely out of fear and discontentedness is nothing more than what organized religion has been doing for centuries.
LOL!! You lack the self-awareness necessary to be taken at your word; your only possible function is as a kind of case study. Trust me, there is plenty of eloquence and clarity coming from my keyboard, but there's no reason to direct it at you.
While we appreciate your viewpoint, if you are a Wall Street worker (which I doubt), it is drawn from your professional experience and we have to ask why one should listen to the people who have so damaged the world.
951 cities in 27 days? Please. We are doing ok.
The point of this protest is that your way of thinking is simply wrong. You would destroy the world for a 32nd. You know nothing about value. Read this:
"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.
Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans." RFK.
Need more? Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=related or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE&feature=related
Still, we appreciate your comments.
Join us.
I agree. We have to chose our leaders and document what we need. I do not care about cold weather but as elections 2012 will gear up every politicians will speak our vague language. This rally will be lost election fever. All the politicians will care about votes democrats and republicans alike.
I still our major demand is keeping money out of election financing. This is the right time to warn politicians on both sides.
The poster is duplicitous. The worse thing that can happen is 'organization' as that is how the man gets you...look what happened to all the old fart tea partiers..they got organized right into the republican party!
No, the secret to success is to stay self organizing, and to aikido the buggers by NOT being organized...
as zibignew brezenski (obama's handler) has said in public, it is easier to kill a million people, than to control them...
nuff said?
Not quite that simple. You're right that we need to think long and hard before coming up with our "Contract with Wall Street" because if it comes out poorly articulated, incomplete, or on the other hand far too sweeping to be possible to implement it will go hard by us. It is also true that the incredibly broad-based popular support we have as a movement is due to our lack of a concrete platform.
My thing is this: popular support needs not to be an end in and of itself but rather a means to effect concrete change in the way things are done. Thus, the popular support we have now does us no good if chunks of it go out the window the minute we make a concrete proposal, and yet it will probably take such a proposal to begin to get things done. Right now, OWS is Schrodinger's cat, only it's in a superposition of about ten different states across several spectra, and deciding to commit to any one state means abandoning the others and possibly shedding people along the way. Such a commitment may not be the best thing now, but it's going to have to happen sometime.
If it doesn't, then we start to become background noise. Whether "the man" gets us or not is immaterial, we won't be able to do anything to him unless we can all agree on what to do. In fact, I would argue that "the man" could benefit from us staying this way; as long as we're angry but not doing anything we become a safety valve for dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs rather than an agent for change and I don't think that's what we want.
Wow, first thing. Thank for a honest post. Thank you for not posting how wonderful you are and how bad we are because we want change, like most of the posts here.
Secondly, how right you are. While there is soo much corruption and so many differences describing the multiple levels of corruption, there is a need for a unified front.
Wow, first thing. Thank for a honest post. Thank you for not posting how wonderful you are and how bad we are because we want change, like most of the posts here.
Secondly, how right you are. While there is soo much corruption and so many differences describing the multiple levels of corruption, there is a need for a unified front.
Intrigued Wall St Exec is right on!!!
Let's make this concrete and FIRST get the money out of politics and send a message to the banker crooks that bet against the mortgages they were selling us!
Treat the banks that got bailed out as if they were under the FDIC bailouts and send some people to jail. Help the investors get their money back from the financial institutions that ripped them off.
Change the election laws so people/corporations can only contribute $100 (one hundred dollars max) to an individual candidate and party. All contributors to public issue adds must be published and limit this to real people, not companies.
Change our tort system and take responsibility for your own life. If you want to sue someone, the looser pays the other person's legal costs up to a certain point (e.g. $100,000 or 10% of the amount sought).
The equivalent cost of state universities must be paid primarily by the government, which could be applied to private schools. How about 1/3 by the student to have some skin in the undergraduate game and the balance by the federal government with SIMPLE filing. Graduate degrees paid 50% by the federal government.
DEMAND that we set the Top 5 priorities as a country and work toward them. Start with rebuilding our power infrastructure and investing in sustainable energy - nothing for corn, oil, coal, etc.
Change the tax system. We arguably have the worst system in the world. Companies pay 10% of their bottom line, pre-capital investment. People pay nothing up to the poverty level for their location, then we ALL pay 20% up to $1M, then 39% - NO personal deductions. Serious enforcement, which both parties keep voting down. Serious penalties for those who materially cheat (anything over $10,000 big fines)(over $100,000, 1-yr in jail minimum).
Change the immigration laws. If you are a foreigner and get a graduate degree, you also get a "green card". We want you. If you are a seasonal worker, register and please come do the work we need you to do. Stop replacing American workers with off-shore "visa people" corporations bring to America at lower wages.
Basic medical care is the right of every person. Let's figure this out as the rest of the industrialized countries have already.
Make voting EASY. There is nothing wrong with requiring an ID to register or vote. It should never take more than 30-minutes to vote, even at peak times. And we should trust our voting machines... FLORIDA - not.
Let's start a Constitutional Convention to do this inside the framework we already have. What's wrong with a balanced budget amendment, except in time of a 67% Congressional DECLARED war, e.g. WW II, not Iraq or Afghanistan.
I am far from a wall street banker. My income level is probably one of the lowest brackets. In fact if i wanted I could be standing in line for Medicaid, Section 8 and many other programs but I don't. Instead I adjust my lifestyle. And I say that to those who dismiss this statement because this guy says he's a wall street employee. i am complete opposite of the spectrum and I agree. That's been an issue with me since this started. There isn't any plans for movement beyomg people squatting in parks. Even if I don't agree with some of you I believe you should be heard but there is so much confusion among yall. Since you don't have certain people designated to speak when they show people saying some of the stupidest things then that person is speaking for the movement with this current group mentality yall have going on. You really need to figure out what it is you really want and push forward with it.
So without an obsessive compulsive statement made by the movement, without a keen amount of attention to the cause before a statement or demand would be made by the movement you my Wallstreet junkie are becoming uncomfortable? You don't understand why it is moving in this way? Be patient my friend. All in good time. Peace.
I'm not uncomfortable. I'm hopeful "a change would do you good"
This isn't about me. Or is the you you're referring to the 99%?
The government nor wallstreet make much of a difference in my life personally. I live within a spirit of neutrality. That is perfect peace.
It's the name of a song - read it as "us"
You need to listen:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Oh I disagree wholeheartedly.
Yo're locked into that "Street" mentality-the OWS kids don't need the kind of advice you're doling out. They don't need to sell themselves like Kool-Aid.
Plenty of mainstream people support OWS.
With all due respect, maybe you know as much as anyone on this forum what the requests should be, could be or want to be as an insider - if you are intrigued write a "What to demand" post and help this country out of the financial crisis that is affecting all of us. It is not us and them or you and us. Sideline critiquing is, IMO, a power play. Hasn't there been enough of that?
I'd say constructive criticism differs from being critical in this case. I'm a huge fan of the dialectic process, meaning I don't have the ego to believe that I alone can or should come up with a solution. I could proffer solutions to problems all day long - which doesn't mean they are right, will be effective or certainly that they will match up with concensus views in the end. I'll bet a tighter message or action plan will emerge soon.
first point taken. i am not suggesting that you alone come up with a solution - only that contributions from a platform like yours (insiders), here, with over a hundred views would be a nice gift, in my opinion (apparently others feel differently). Consensus views that emerge in the end will be built on educated and heartfelt ideas from everyone having the courage to make a contribution. Undoubtedly, all contributions will be swept away into something greater than anyone of us could dream up on our own. I take what you have said at face value and feel your decency. Good luck in here. ☺
Thanks for the advice, Wall Street guy.
If you were actually listening to the movement that's going to kick your boss' ass instead of just concern-trolling as you are, you'd realise that we have all kinds of concrete proposals and plans.
Many of them calculated to make the 1% grind their teeth.
Be seein' ya.
Do tell, but my point is just that - there seem to be too many “proposals and plans.” Sure, the list of grievances is long for good reason. I can read them and agree with many.
I'm talking about action. Is the point to topple the empire or pick a goal that can actually be achieved without getting a lot of people injured. If it’s the latter, the message needs some tightening. Find consensus.
Listen there a communist movement directed by the unions at there core ps I live in poverty
http://robinhoodtax.org/ Tax all global financial transactions 1% watch: 'The Banker' vid about the Tobin Tax spread this as one of the main demands.
Use that fund (trillions) to pay for collectively identified & agreed goals From Earthquake relief, to famine, to health concerns, and more importantly to Policy Shift - climate change mitigation through Energy policy shift, Food policy shift, and healthcare policy shift, education policy shift, jobs creation through infrastructure - old to new- shift that. Those things can be paid for and more.
This is from another forum and it is a good start. Thanks Wall Street Exec.
We must demand that Congress pass a constitutional amendment to ban federal campaign contributions by anyone other than an individual and in an amount not to exceed $100/yr. Further, the amendment must require that the names of contributors be publicly disclosed. This is the only thing that will get Corporate influence out of Congress and allow the American people to be the constituents of lawmakers again.
The reason lawmakers will want to vote for this is that we will publish who votes for and against the bill on this site and say categorically, that whoever doesn't vote for the amendment will not get our vote again, period. It will be revealing for the 99% because those that don't vote for such a measure will be shown as what they really are - people in the campaign business, not the citizen-representing business. Anyone who doesn't vote for radical campaign reform isn't one of us, plain and simple.
The process of reasonable wealth distribution is going to be a long process, to be sure. But if we are going to be effective this has to happen first. We must simultaneously require the same thing in local and state governments. If it doesn't happen the first go round we mustn't be discouraged. It may take us voting them out of office to make it happen. But if we stay the course, we can occupy not only Wall Street, but the United States Congress.
PS, as a bonus, when Corporations can no longer spend a gazillion dollars on campaigns, maybe they'll have money to hire some people.
Amen with the PS!...this talk has been thrown around at the GA meetings within the movement. Even as low as a $1.00 contribution cap. Going even further...can all of the great educated minds of this 21st century come up with a system with no need for a president or congress.?....These talks are in session also. Think ReVoLuTiOn.
Years ago we had displaced Homemakers. Imagine displaced Bankers and Politicians...teehee
I believe if all nations on this world united in a confederation of peace and love, and agreed with one another to respect each other and to stop the wars, then we could have so much "money" and "time" to focus on what needs to be fixed in the world. But the fact of the matter is, is that people are selfish, lazy, and don't know how to go about changing the world because it is too complicated. We need to change from the inside out and we can't legislate "morality". We need to get rid of the piece of shit, not polish it in different ways.
Well the problme is my Wall Street Exective is that you know exactly what the problem is but choose to play this coy game. Here is an idea why don't you grow a pair and start talking about what you know the real problems is and verify the real causes of why these folks are gathering to protest you industry..... instead of being a miserable manipulative prick
Offensive, divisive, disruptive and unfounded. You seem to want a fight rather than a solution.
Aaaaaahhhhhhh.....I smell a cop out.
Dude be patient ... It might seem chaotic but it's working ... The conversations have started ... we have all been inundated with propaganda for so long ... ...
He's not saying you need to change the world in 30 days, he's saying you need an idea of what you actually want the change to be. You can't achieve a goal if you don't know what the goal is.
You are so right sorry. We all have a idea what the basic goal is ... and they the bankers know what the problem is ... It is time for truth ... How cool would it be to almost overnight break through to millions of people all around the world and infect their minds with life changing ideas of freedom… To give the people the confidence and intellectual foundation to get a REAL alternative to the “lesser of two evils” political system… To be able to show the entire play book of the Elite, so that no one ever is fooled by their games… To show the world the crimes against humanity by the few Elite that control our paradigm…
You said it. Peace.
If you are an intrigued Wall Street Executive, which I doubt, I am sure you would like this to collapse into a heap. Trouble is it won't and what is more it is moving right across the world.
It is your greed, corruption (serious loss of money on the Stock Exchange and unregulated traders) as well serious fiscal mismanagement and bad loans which has brought us into this mess.
So what changes could come from all these demonstrations. Well for a start your pet poodle the European Parliament could go belly up! that would be a huge blow for the world Financial Markets, losing control in the Centre of Europe and the downing of the Euro itself. You need to be careful on your precarious perch not to underestimate the enemy.
How could that happen, well, UKIP and the True Finns pretty much are united against it, and the True Finns could take Finland and they are very much a people party, that would pull Finland away from Europe altogether, Britain would soon follow.
There are a great many of us outside of tents, who detest the practices you have undertaken and detest the fact that public money was squandered on bailing out institutes which have not changed their practices. Too many people for you to feel so secure about I will tell you that.
Now you asked a question and want something on the table so here it is, in plain English.
How about you stop the politicians dishing out public money to save your asses for what amounts to your own fiscal mismanagement?
You put up safeguards against bad loans and bad debt, in future months and only because of greed and ultra high charges, this is going to happen a lot more and putting up the charge of interest against credit cards is not going to help you, nor is it a solution.
You need also to put up safeguards against bad financial transactions on the Stock Market, put an end to insider trading and inexperienced stock brokers from losing billions by bad investment.
Thing is if you are who you say you are, you know all this already and your greatest fear lies if any politician finally gets the courage to stand up to you and makes the "free markets" culpable for their own actions.
In doing so, if the the banks failed as they had done through their own negligence, they would be subject to fines and or imprisonment instead of public money being pumped into them wholesale.
Hope that answers your question, however our politicians are really too feeble and cowardly to do any of this so you have the advantage, for the moment that is!
I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that - don't take it as a compliment. I really think you need to broaden your reading, accept that things are not so simple and try not to bucket all players into eather Team 1 or Team 2. I didn't take any TARP.
Suddenly you don't want to be in the bucket going down but were big man talking to who you thought were hippies without a real solution? Sorry, guilty by association.
I would never begin to accuse anyone of acting illegally, but all one has to do is look at the amount of cases against stockbrokers and those who work the markets to realise there is a problem.
A shoplifter, thief or robber, almost wrote rapper lol, I digress, but a thief does not usually end up losing a billion of other peoples money. The sums in these cases are astronomic, it is this which people object to, as well as the take over of their democracy.
Heavens, there was an outcry when politicians stole from the public purse and even they did not reach the anywhere near the amounts the banks have lost.
What else can you possibly expect from people who see clearly what is going on with the philanderers who have to all intents and purposes taken over our democracy. Well maybe not taken over, but certainly play a greater role than they should in it.
But I wonder, perhaps everyone should simply refuse to repay their loans, in order to recover the money that the Government has paid on to the banks and perhaps everyone who has savings should go to the banks and withdraw their money out in protest.
It may even be that those two actions alone could do more than this protest ever could.
There are lot of honest working people who are well and truly angered by all this and in any matter that represents a danger, all it takes for your precious banks to fall apart is for people to do three things.
It does not need violence or rioting to pull this down and moreso it does not need people to continue to suffer under pressure from both Governmental or Banking failure.
1.Draw out Their money from the banks in protest. 2.Everyone stops paying back on their credit cards 3.No one buys Any new goods for the next six months.
Agreed! The way we use or don't use our dollar is where our power lies. The only thing we need to do is unite and collectively pull our money out and away.
I believe the banks are very afraid of these exact actions which have slowly begun taking place anyway.....There are similar actions that can occur in the Healthcare/Insurance industries as well. It isn't over til the fat lady sings.
I hear ya - unfortunately the implications of this plan would be as devestating for the average Joe as the financial system.
The economy has already ground to a halt. How do you think the businesses that pay the 90% of the workforce that are emplyed would do if the consumer stopped spending (65% of GDP) and the banks stopped lending to finance business?
We move from discussing change to the topic of revolution. Interesting thoughts though - keep it up.
of course it's all being done in a wrong way according to a "wall st. executive". Isn't that part of the point, we're no longer going to do it your way? The game is changing. Wake up.
Here you have a WS Executive who is showing support by offering words of encouragement and guidance (from an insider's perspective and from the perspective of an executive who knows how to get things done) and you denounce his motivations simply because he's a WS Executive?
I'm a small business owner and am no way near the 1% or being a WS Executive, but I echo his sentiment 100%. Something I always tell me employees regarding client relations translates nicely to the OWS movement...
To my employees: Set expectations. How can you expect anybody to meet your expectations if you don't tell them what they are? In your case, change "expectations" to "goals".
The problem here my friend is we are not running a small business. That's what we may do for a living but this is a Revolution. Do you still have the guide book? These ideas that he suggests are not new they are naive.
Sure, revolution.... I get it. I didn't say his ideas were new -- but I do affirm that they are effective. It doesn't matter if it's small business, corporate America, or even parenting -- it's effective.
See my response to Lenn911 in this same thread. Remove the fact that he's a WS exec (purportedly) and then give consideration to what he's saying... http://occupywallst.org/forum/say-something-advice-from-a-wall-street-executive/#comment-140162
I didn't necessarily even buy that he is a WS exec. That isn't the point. The point is in this forum that statement has been made a million times over. I'm saying we have to be on caffeine or hyped up in some way to even have the thoughts at all this movement should be done or have anything formulated at such an early date. If you realize the gravity of this movement and what it stands for that would make perfect sense. No?
I didn't denounce his motivation, I am saying that the "knowing how to get things done" part is is what the movement is about. It's about changing the status quo and how things were done in the past. Why the heck would the Occupy Wall Streeters want a wall street banker telling them how to run the show? That's the core of what the protest is about! I believe there are many within the financial institutions who either secretly or openly support OWS, but I don't think they would be taking this tone.
You are missing the point. He's not saying "This is how you get things done my way (the WS way)". What he's saying is "This is how to get things done". The effectiveness of the technique doesn't care if it's being used to leverage capital in a hostile takeover of a smaller company or if it's being used to band together a group of people protesting something - it's all the same.
Forget for a second whether or not he's a WS insider... if it was some general Joe Schmuckatelly (who had nothing to do with WS or OWS) walking down the road offering you that advice, would it be worthy to you? THAT'S the true measure of the value of what he's saying. If you can honestly say you believe it is bad advice (regardless of the source), then there's your answer... Like I said, I'm not in the 1%, but I own a business and I make a good living -- and the advice he is giving is very sound with regards to how to bring together people of such diversity to accomplish a common goal.
Here we go again. Rome wasn't built in a day. We don't bring soldiers into the Armed Services and turn them loose into enemy territory 3 weeks later or do we? That would be no good. Please put your smaller brain aside and take out the big one.
Ad hominem attacks are useless, so I'll let that drop because I do believe you actually want to engage in rational dialogue. Does an army just form up and send the troops loose? No... But the army DOES have a plan before they form up and go to war - with stated objectives - and an end game...
There hasn't even been the suiting up yet and there are multiple end games as well as objectives. Stop look and listen.
Those objectives and end games may be clear to the insiders - but to outsiders, it isn't so clear, and that is the point being made.
One person says "We need to can capitalism and move toward socialism". Another says "Remove the ties between corporate money and government". A third says "Forgive student loans and enact a 5 year moratorium on home foreclosures". A fourth says "Anarchy". A fifth says "Tax the rich".
and on and on and on...
The problem is that everyone has their own agenda and ideas to move OWS forward, and while some ideas resonate more than others, it's not slowing down those others from stating objectives (even ones that don't coincide with the "official position" because there is no "official position".
Look at this forum for example - you have plenty of people speaking out "on behalf of OWS" in their own minds - pushing their own ideas and agendas. Then you have people denouncing those while presenting their own ideas. There's the "official ideas", but even those are contradicted by others who denounce even that. You have many people embracing unions and left-leaning liberals while others claim this to be a bipartisan movement that transcends party affiliation.
I am stopping, looking, and listening. I attended my own city's Occupy Columbia event this past Saturday and I spoke to several of the people attending to find out if/where i fit in and I couldn't get a coherent idea about what this was about from any of them -- saw 6 and 7 year old girls holding a sign chanting they wanted education -- and education at THAT level isn't even on the "official" OWS radar. The movement does nothing but spark conversation, but what good is that if people just walk away befuddled when it's over - the lack of consistency and a clear message turns people away -- sorry, but it is what it is.
Oh Indy. The two party system is so much easier isn't it? Everything one party says the other disagrees with regardless of what it is. And yes, the protest I attended on Saturday had teachers at the lower levels educating us on what is happening in the entirety of education. They gave a lengthy presentation as we sat on the street in front of Chase Bank. The motion includes all education. Every level. It includes so much Indy that it becomes time consuming and not at all a simple project to say the least. Stop and listen even more. This is a ReVoLuTiOn . Do you grasp the enormity of that? Peace.
And your responses here just validate my point -- "The motion includes all education". That is something you state as simple fact -- which is not outlined anywhere in the "official" OWS info -- get it? Are you the official spokesperson? If you are not, and that is not outlined in the "official" OWS manifesto (or whatever they are calling it these days), then why are you stating that as a fact? Many others are doing the exact same thing you are doing here -stating "fact" that contradicts the "official" OWS info. That's the point. Obviously, there is a disconnect here, so we'll just be best off dropping the convo because I grasp what you are saying, and you apparently do no reciprocate the same open mindedness... It's all good. Peace back atcha!
I have to agree with what he's saying, and it's really my only concern with the Occupy Wall Street movement. I'm part of the 1% (well, technically my family is), but we're all supportive of what you do.
But the problem is that this movement lacks focus. I know you must hear this complaint all the time, but that's because it's true. Directionless rage, the primal lashing out at any and every source of discontent, is ultimately meaningless. I know there's a lot to be angry about. I know that it's incredibly easy to get off topic, or to have several topics, because all of these grievances and instances of corruption and everything are interconnected. And I know that this is what a true grassroots movement is about.
But unless you (we, I'm only using you because I'm not actually on the streets) focus and channel your rage, and create one or two common themes that you can all stand behind on, you'll be fragmented and weak. Unless you unite, it'll be easy for the 0.1% (which I'm using instead of the 1% because the 1% contains people like doctors and lawyers and engineers and honest CEOs (who actually exist!) and people who work their fingers and minds to exhaustion and actually earn their keep instead of the big-name charlatans who are all we hear about) to split you apart, and the movement won't last past the first big snowstorm.
I'm not being condescending. I'm trying to give you constructive criticism, and help your movement grow into something strong.
Also, please don't play the Hitler Card. It instantly makes your argument seem weak, and I find it extremely insulting. There's a reason why people who invoke Godwin's Law forfeit the legitimacy of their argument.
Just one word Caffeinated One. I'm sorry but your user name kinda gives it away. Get off the caffeine. Slow down....think it through....how old is this movement? How old were you when you lifted your head? Turned over? Crawled? Walked? Take that deep breath that you haven't taken since 1999 and prepare for the ride. I'm hoping that time is taken to do this right and not half assed.
Maybe you are who you say you are. Maybe you are not. You'll just have to deal with the fact that people here will be VERY skeptical of someone like you say you are.
I'll play along. Lets say you are truly an "Intrigued Wall Street Executive". I'll even allow that you MAY be part of the 99%. But you will have to lay your cards down first. I may or may not tell you the reason why I do what I do for this protest. But I will tell you this, OWS is NOT "searching for a cause". Searching for more people to gain support, maybe. But not searching for a cause.
What do you think are some of the main problems in the financial system and how can they be fixed? Lay it out.
It’s time to bite the bullet: Money supply is through the roof (bailout), but the ripple effect across the rest of the world (along with some policy moves) is somewhat effectively staving off inflation for now (except for food, gas, fabric, etc.). We are far too dependent of foreign oil, far too reliant on cheap labor from abroad and kidded ourselves in thinking that we could effectively transform to a service-based economy (only).
We are also WAY over-leveraged. Depending on how you calculate it, our debt/GDP ratio (measures ability to pay) is nearing danger levels usually found in developing countries or ones where there has been some type of trauma. Folks in the States are spenders (that’s cultural), but we’ve unfortunately over-run our credit cards on so many levels (Government and citizens). We need to re-create industry in this country (at the risk of sounding too protectionist) and stop thinking we can continue running excessive deficits. Note that government outlays in 2000 were about $1.75 trillion, they are estimated to be $3.8T this year and $4.5T in five years (insane). In the past 25 years, outlays were about 10% greater than receipts on average. This ballooned ~40% for the past couple years. That’s just not sustainable. Unfortunately, there are times for deficit, which takes a balanced budget bill off the table, but 85% of the time is, again, insane. Folks will debate taxes policy until the cows come home, and there is no painless answer. Basically, we need to break a bad habit (everywhere possible in the economy) of spending money that we don’t have and creating a debt overhang out of which we can’t grow. Sorry to not have a simple solution, but if I had that clarity I’d probably take a run at politics (unfortunately that’s broken too).
Debt is really not the problem. Growth, or lack of growth, is. The US debt to GDP ratio is about 62%. The Canadian debt to GDP ratio is 82%; Germany 75.4%. Both the Canadian and German economies are healthy economies.
http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
Debt as a political issue was manufactured by the Koch's Tea Party, and the Obama administration got lead into it like the Democratic donkey they are.
If you really are a Wall St. exec in Boston (and I didn't know Wall St. moved), you will know that the US debt markets are the deepest in the world. Interest rates have seldom been lower. Even after Fitch reduced our ratings, treasuries rallied paradoxically. Why? Because there are few good alternatives to US debt, and bond traders across the globe know know that our debt is still the safest. There's a reason why Mr. so called Bond King lost money this year: it's because he totally misjudged the value of US treasuries, selling earlier than he should have.
In fact, now is the time to get in debt because it is unlikely we can borrow so cheaply again. We should be issuing fixed rate debt (borrowing money) to rebuild America, when the whole world stands ready to lend us money so that we can be competitive again.
The way to reducing the deficit is to invest in our core competencies. We need to seriously ask what it is that Americans are better at than other nations. Hopefully the answer isn't just military might. And when we have the answers, we need to borrow lots of money and invest money. Any good businessman will do the same thing.
Almost all firms except a few like Microsoft are leveraged. It is the present value of future earnings with a controlled cost that are the drivers of good planning. It is earnings we should concentrate on. Debt is really not the problem. As the old Chinese saying goes, "You cannot catch chicken without rice." So borrow some rice.
No need to apologize. I understand there is no easy answer. Interesting how you point the finger at government and consumer debt. So you are advocating that we stop making debt? Isn't this the lifeblood of the banks. Other peoples debt? They make a loan and turn it into an asset which they can then make another loan from? If we stop making debt how will the banks survive? Tell me more about that.
Also, many people would say your industry had a little something to do with our economic problems too. Is that justified?
Sure it did, while I'm so much of a debt guy myself. I really wasn't laying blame - just pointing out that culturally we spend and don't save (easy when you have 200 years of unhindered growth from a green field. We (the government and the people) are still doing it and the trendhas been coming to a head for more than 30 years with far too many parties complicit in the outcome we are now experiencing. Like I said - wish I had the simple solution.
What about banks making money off of debt. I mean turning it into an asset and making more debt. What do you think of that? Can you tell me more about it? Or maybe thats not your expertise. Thats ok too.
Debt guy - I think that means bonds? Have you ever committed fraud? Or have you ever known of fraud being committed? What do you think about government regulation of the industry.
Never committed fraud, but certainly read the headlines. I think I get the question. To oversimplify, the banks took debt, bucketed up lots of it together then diced it up to look more like a stock than a bond. They sold units (or shares) of this to various investors (hedge funds, mutual funds, pensions, endowments, sovereign wealth funds, etc.).
The basic premise was that they were able to immediately pass the risk along to outside investors. It is a slightly different form of moral hazard than what folks referred to with regard to the bailout. A couple big parts of the interest that a bank charges on debt has to do with 1) their cost of capital (they borrow from depositors) and 2) their risk of default; so it offsets the risk that some portion of the loans that they make will not perform (not pay or default). The problem arises when the bank that decides whether to write a loan or not doesn't care about the risk because it will not have any risk left after the debt has been diced up and sold off (Google CMO or CMBS). As long as there was demand (and there was), they would keep writing riskier and riskier loans and not be left holding the bag if things went south. Investors bought insurance against default (Google CDS or credit default swap), passing the buck again. In the end the bubble got way too big and eventually popped.
The movie "Too Big to Fail" does a great job of putting things in Main Street terms.
I generally agree with your account of what happened, but I think an important nuance added parenthetically needs to be examined: "As long as there was demand (and there was),"
As every good marketer knows, demand doesn't just appear like an apparition of Jesus - well sometimes it does, but only to saints. Instead very often demand is Created by marketers. Let's face it, we never knew we needed an IPad till Steve Jobs told us.
Of course many of us want a house because that's the American Dream, but how many people knew they wanted 2 if only they could have an ARM and 2% down payment and ratcheting clauses, or even just one but with a NINJA loan?
I would also add that the structured CMO, CMBS, & CDO transaction were also very profitable for investment banks, both American and foreign. There is not only interest and credit charge, but a large transaction cost. Good old fee income.
Fully agree - I-banks, lenders and mortgage brokers all made big fees. The public was fleeced into ignorantly believing that they could afford something worth more than their lifetime income potential in many cases. Still, the demand for the debt by largely institutional investors (big boys) to which I was referring was largely a function of perceived riskless return - which in itself is pretty stupid notion.
Quote: "demand for the debt by largely institutional investors (big boys) to which I was referring was largely a function of perceived riskless return"
Institutional investors for these tranched debt were mainly pension funds and insurance companies, which is why many such funds suddenly had a shortfall. But again this is partly marketing deception. These debt were issued at triple A investment grades, but oddly paid a lot more in interest. Compared to a treasury with the same rating, of course most people are going to choose the higher interest payments. Unfortunately, lurking behind the rating was unknown risk that came out of the bottle, not so much like a genie but a daemon.
You seem to place the blame on the end investor for creating the demand. I would place the demand problem on Wall Street.
I would contend that the Wall Street banks created the demand for the bad mortgages. Diced them up, put lipstick on the pig, and resold them , passing off the stink bomb which they made to look like a fragrant and beautiful flower. When it was really a flaming pile of crap. Nothing personal. Just sayin'. I can't really make it sound nice, because there is not really a nice way to say it.
Wall Street knew, or should have known, those mortgages were bad. If they had refused to deal in them, or even if they had dealt them honestly , CCC rating or whatever was the true case, there would not have been a meltdown to the degree we saw. Wall Street was the outlet, for the bad guys on mainstreet making the bad mortgages. If Wall Street had been ethical in dealing the stuff, the bad mortgage market would have dried up or been small and limited. The people on Wall Street that did this committed fraud. Greed was their motivation. Your thoughts?
Nice to know YOU'RE not a fraudulant criminal!
Keep in mind that the end investors for the most part lived on Wall Street. Everybody is always seeking a return, and the demand structurally created itself. Think about the math: If you can borrow money at 3% and lend it back out at 7% then pay 1% to insure against loss or default, you do it all day long. That is of course until the walls come tumbling down and everything unravels.
Banks were greedy, Investment Bankers were greedy, Investors (professional or not) were greedy, Real Estate Developers were greedy and consumers taking money out of their houses to buy cars worth more than their annual income were greedy. Perhaps they all should have known better, but trust me when I tell you that those that truely saw this coming were few and far between. But yes – greed was a motivator.
Understand there is plenty of blame to go around. However, I still say that Wall Street should have done their due diligence to know many of those loans were bad. Or they did know, didn't care, resold them anyway. Thats fraud.
Even if they didn't know a crash was coming, its a stretch for me to believe that somewhere in that process there was not even an audit of the underlying mortgages, EVER, to know that there was a problem. How does Wall Street buy investments without knowing what it is they are buying?
The did repackage them and sell them as something that they were not. Thats fraud. Why are the institutions not prosecuted for this?
All of the other players you name - they are paying the price for their sins. Mortgage originators- defunct, in jail. Developers - bankrupted, out of business. End investors - billions of dollars of losses, pension funds and the like, which has hurt innocent people.
Regular people - losing their houses. Sometimes not even their fault , just caught up in the downward spiral. The rest of us who, partly by the Grace of God, are still right side up on their mortgage, are still negatively impacted by the horrendous state of the economy.
Everyone is punished except Wall Street. Why?
April - you are the one protesting because you are the one saying it's broken -- shouldn't you be identifying the problems and then either offering solutions or looking to someone to help devise solutions?
Well, this guy is here too. Who knows? Maybe he is sincere. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a while. He seems genuinely confused. And if he is for real, I'm actually interested in what he has to say.
I'll play my cards close. If he truly is sincere, he will understand that.
I know my truth and what I will fight for. I'm clear on that!
He probably won't even respond anyway. So no worries.
Fair enough - but isn't it still apropos to define exactly what you believe is wrong and then work to fix it (or to get help in fixing it)? You know, even if this guys is being facetious, he speaks truth about the direction (or lack thereof) in the movement.
Disagree. The longer the "powers" are kept in the dark, the better. If they don't know what we want, they cannot fight us. The longer they don't know, the more time we have to gain support. There is a direction! We don't need to publicize it. We have eachother to count on for spreading the word. Whatever confusion there is, works in our favor.
What a pile of crap. Another shithead trying to get attention. Crawl back into your hole where you belong.
Riggght, because your message is so clear to the world as to wtf you're trying to do by protesting? There's zero cohesion or consistency in message in any of the Occupy protests. You'll never accomplish anything unless you start working on some sort of message that people can understand...which is his point you dope.
Brother you know what that message is. Are you waiting to hear it from other people? The message is Peace. No more rigged economy enforced by violent domination. Peace. No more fear of death, imprisonment for not supporting the school yard bully's violence. Demand Peace now. Peace is Prosperity. We are not slaves. We are not controlled by violent threat. We have the moral authority to Demand Peace, without judgement. Cast off the guilt. The rotten system is crumbling down. Start enjoying your freedom today. Glad you are looking and intrigued. No matter how much money you have, you WANT and NEED PEACE!
Here is a list of OWS demands (not sure if it's official, but it's a start). I saw it on another post.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
I share a similar sentiment.
Although I am not a Wall Street Exec, I am in the 1%. I support the foundation that started this movement - but we seem to be losing our way with a lot of nonsensical talk that doesn't accomplish anything. It's pie-in-the-sky talk.
Complete redistribution of wealth? Caps on earnings? Down with capitalism? Communism?
I mean, these are all interesting to theorize about but these are realistic or the reason for the movement.
We banded together, much like the tea party, because we were frustrated at the bail outs and the continued siphoning of tax dollars to these same people that crashed our economy.
We banded together because we felt the government no longer represents the will of the American people, but has rather been sold out to the highest bidders. We no longer own our political system.
With that said, regardless of political ideology -- no real change can be enacted and work until we own our government again. THIS is the fundamental problem.
Our government has sold us out. They continue to sell us out as you demonstrate on the sidewalks ... Free Trade Agreements with nations that don't really buy our goods? Come on. This is another way to export our jobs. Open your eyes. The government, regardless of party affiliation no longer represents you.
Why do you say you are the 1%?
Because I am. By birth, I am part of the 1%.
The point of stating this is to show that despite being part of this sphere doesn't discount wanting to do what's right for this country. It is important to show solidarity - regardless of where you sit in this politically and/or fiscally.
Just because I am part of this group does not mean I oppose the change required to make this country great again.
I'm not sure that is possible.
Did you come out of the womb corrupting the government?? Serious question. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything.
The 1% is defined by wealth not corruption.
I am in the 1% in terms of salary and amassed wealth.
With that said, I agree with your sentiment that corruption of government is the root issue. Not wealth or accumulation thereof. That's why I point out that I'm fiscally part of this group -- so that people can realize we aren't all monsters that want to bleed America dry.
In order to have an honest discussion, we need to drop our ideologies and unite. We will never stop the sale of our government without unifying. They will divide us and conquer us - liberal, conservative, libertarian, communist, socialist, capitalist, 1%, 99% ... there is too much money to be made right now. Until we close that gap, we can't have an honest discussion about the direction our government should go.
That's my feeling at least.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are here! I'm glad that you see the problem. The way I like to think of it -
1% buys their representation in government. 99% are left with the scraps of a diminished democracy. It is about corruption.
I think this is an important distinction. We should not use wealth as a determining factor. There is nothing wrong with having money. The problem only comes when some people or entities use their money to gain unfair influence in government.
It is the Haves and the Have Nots. But it is not whether you have money or not. It is about having power and control over government. 1% Have power over the government. Money is their tool. But there are many wealthy people that do not use their money to influence or corrupt the government. Thats you. You are the 99%.
Of course you are not a monster, and I would not want you to be demonized for being wealthy. That is why this distinction needs to be made. The point is corruption, not wealth.
Its about the 99% having a fair and equal voice in government. So long as 1% is buying their representation, it is drowning out the voices of the rest of us. And no matter how wealthy you may be, your voice is not being heard either.
Wealthy - yes. Equal representation in govt - no.
It is the lack of equal representation that unifies us.
Here, here! Bravo.
Welcome to the Occupation and the 99% proud protester!
Go forth in peace and love and bring more wealthy people over.
Regards, April
I think you've made a perceptive observation, but one that can be taken much further. Yes, there doesn't seem to be a coherent message. It is leaderless, which is why every political group from the socialists, moveon, Obama to Eric Cantor, Ron Paul and the American Nazi's is trying to commandeer it as theirs.
But I think the fact that people came out in troves even without a message, or a concrete cause signifies the depth of general frustration. But is not so much anger as it is tinged with helplessness, not so much resentment as it colored with resignation, but yet not so much a rebellion without a cause as a demonstration of being neglected. In that regard, it is a symptom of a loss generation.
It is as if people are finally waking up from the American Dream to the nightmare of reality, having lived through the consequences of corporate greed and unbridled speculation that brought, not only America, but much of the Western world to their knees.
Ultimately, I think people are looking for socially responsible, and fair business and government practices so that they can have a fighting chance at life.
Like your thoughts Socrates - Perhaps we should all re-read Plato's Republic
If the congress was flooded with people so much that they couldn't do their jobs, we could win. Why can't we build a barricade to prevent them from working?
My guess is that that could get bloody. You've got Jeffersonian instinct though... "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
You cant win anything in America without losing blood... sad but true. War is everything here.... But one last war could mean a lifetime of peace and future prosperity. Not many get that though.
We should rally around the idea that it's time to exercise our ultimate right as Americans--to alter and abolish. The Article V Convention accomplishes this in that it is a three-part national discussion which stops politics as usual. It is a national discussion on the authority of the Constitution wherein we find our common ground. this site has info: http://www.foavc.org This site is a conference held last month at Harvard: http://www.conconcon.org
Thank you for your thoughtful and civil post. It's precisely how I feel about the protest.
The entire protest needs to focus on the BRIBES.
Make it clear. The solution is only a 3rd party. Quit wasting time sitting in the park. Go home, nominate a 3rd party candidate and elect him/her.
Of course everybody is aware of bribery. Failing to focus on bribery is another blunder. Bribery needs to be the key to the protest.
Failure to create a 3rd party is because all Americans including the OWS people are in the propaganda media trance that has all Americans convinced that a 3rd party is impossible. Complete ignorance to this propaganda is missing from OWS.
It is ridiculous to suggest bribe (CAMPAIGN FINANCE) reform.
For 3 decades they keep claiming to do this and all you people can't catch on to the bribes is their reason for living. They love their bribes.
Only public funding with no ads from anybody (an obvious bribe) will prevent bribes.
The OWS ignoring bribery -- proves they are in the same deep trance as the rest of Americans. Read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
We do not need any more parties. We need fundamental reform. The American citizens should have the final say on economic policy, not wall street. The American citizens should have the final say on foreign policy, not the military industrial complex. The American citizens should have the final say about energy policy, not the international oil empires. If you have a net worth of over 5.2 million or, per Merrill lynch, a minimum of 1M in your stock portfolio, then you may by in the 1%. But in or near the 1% bracket know it's the top 1% of the 1% that control our government, our media, as well as most of the governments around the world. There are very simple and basic changes that could be made to our system of government which could be achieved with one simple amendment to our constitution. ( Ratification by simple majority of popular vote by line item of all legislation passed by congress and signed by the president). But we all know that will never happen because the 1% will not allow it to happen. At least not by political means.
If
Yea, the Democrats and Republicans are going to admit to their crimes just because 1000 people are sitting in the park holding signs.
Keep dreaming.
WHAT? Did you even read my post? What, too many words? Let me keep it simple for you. No party is going to reform themselves, and you could add a third, fourth and fifth party... And they would get in line with wall street. Since they would have less power, they could be bought for far less. Wall street would love you for the savings. Nice idea though.
American trade policy needs to be controlled by the 13th Amendment that abolished slavery. Michael Moore is either poorly informed or he's a shill for the corporations. Its time for Michael Moore to tell the truth or be exposed as a fraud. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
dude. you copy paste your posts? why? aren't all conversations original, are you even listening?
I use my real name. Why do you use a fake name?
If you don't like it read something else dude. Are you listening dude?
Fake name? how did you come to that conclusion? You think I am using James Weston as a fake name? If I used a fake name at all, it would be ChicagoBearsFanInLA
Is your last name music?
I'm done sniping with you.
lame steve miller.. and so is your music
I disagree. Steve Miller's old stuff is awesome. James Weston I don't know.
Yeah, his OLD stuff is good. I saw him perform a concert recently on PBS. HAHA hilarious how bad old rockers can get. It was horrendous! That one record is great tho
Define policy Agenda First
I believe that the core issue we are facing now begins with reforming the government and legislative body across the all three levels: Federal, State, and Local. If we are going to follow a clear-cut slogans that can be turned into the specific policy agenda then the movement can achieve a lot. I am stating briefly some thought based on my 25 years of teaching, research and practice in the field of public policy and administration. Agenda One:
Thank you... "Occupy Congress" The Occupationist Party - kind of a solid ring to it. Probably need to back off from the socialist agenda a bit and jump into the middle to get elected though.
Here's something i've been trying to get people to talk more about, which is failing horribly:
It would cost 50 billion to remove new york state from the electric grid. 1.2 billion per month would be returned to the economy, repaying the investment in 4 years. Then, two more states can be taken off the grid, say new hampshire and vermont. 3 years later, we can take two more states off. 2 years later, another two states. 1 year later, another two states, until the whole country is off the grid. In 20 or 30 years, our kids would have an amazing future ahead of them.
Think anybody is interested in such a vastly supporting idea? Nevermind the fact that it would increase the standard of living here by leaps and bounds in no time at all... but, who cares? It would only give the lower class 1/3 of their earned income, but who needs more money these days...
sounds like a commercial....
who's getting the profit ... and how is the future costs regulated ?
future costs would be reduced drastically. Imagine a corporation no longer needing to pay for electricity, hot water, heat, petroleum, etc... you think that alone wouldn't save them hundreds of thousands of dollars they couldn't pass on to the consumer? The economy gets the profit. It's returned to GDP, people spend more on nearly everything. It ends up being dispersed, and in much greater numbers.
Besides, profit is more of a concern than giving 98% of the population 1/3 of their money back? Cleaning up the environment and air quality which would improve local health? Increasing taxes to support better schools and education, universal healthcare, electric vehicles for more american work, among many many others? Who cares about profit when we could be raising the quality of life in this country by leaps and bounds, and taking the poverty line and pushing it way up, taking more drug dealing kids off the streets, and so on and so forth...
Why does it always have to be about money? It's going to be there, it'll just take different routes.
ok...;) it wasn't clear... it looked to me like you were pushing for something for private industry to gain from
No way! I'm pushing for something that every single person in this country can benefit from, which indirectly benefits everyone and the environment.
Have you read the declaration?
http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/
Just read it - Like I said, it outlines plenty of the nasties that have occured but doesn't outline a solution.
If the goal is to start a revolution, this could be a good start. If you want to bring about palpable change (constructively), pick any issue (or a few) and drive it hard.
If I take my kids to a toy store, of course they want all kinds of stuff. If they ask for one thing that would be really meaningful for them, they stand a much higher chance of getting it.
Except we are a child who is demanding to go to the toy store and get some toys, rather than "given the opportunity", so leverage is reversed.
I don't disagree. My feeling is that Gramm-Leach-Bliley is truly the thing that started the whole collapse.
I've written my Senator (Schumer), asking it to be repealed. He had a hand in bringing to the floor in the first place (surprise!), and I want to see it repealed.
This is a little bit time consuming, but when you have a chance, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL325E5EF5DAB7D072
Repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley!
How's that for a start? Besides, read the threads. Its about economic justice. We want the criminals who perpetrated the crimes that cost us our economy arrested.
There's an obvious start. Better yet make the lenders retain risk for the money they put out. A key problem with the current housing market is that the lenders had no reprecussions for loans going bad - they had already packaged them up and sold the risk off to investors.
How about making it harder to buy an election - this is what we call foundation work.
"How about making it harder to buy an election - this is what we call foundation work."
Exactly! Capital Investment - the sooner the better!
Exactly. I see no daylight between us.
Target congress ahead of Wall Street - they set the rules
Agreed, but who buys congress? Who does congress represent? We've got to apply pressure to their bosses, the 1%, as well.
Now your getting to the fundemantal issue - Why can congress be bought, and how do we change that? Aim high, at the origin of the problem.
Now we're back to lobbying, Citizens United, public financing of campaigns... Its a big problem.
Thanks for the support. We're working on it - stay tuned.
the amount of trolls sent here to disrupt just the forum alone tells me they know thats bs. the knee jerk reaction is nothing less than total panic mode. here is some of what they are afraid of. this poll https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
others are in the works from other people in the movement. i have some resources on my blog if you would like to be part of a long term solution http://blog.richardkentgates.com
OWS is a communist JOKE. this is ran and funded by the unions and steve lerner...do research people. you are doing EXACTLY what they want you to do.....fucking idiots
http://gawker.com/5850730/the-single-largest-benefactor-of-occupy-wall-street-is-a-mitt-romney-donor
OWS is a communist JOKE. this is ran and funded by the unions and steve lerner...do research people. you are doing EXACTLY what they want you to do.....fucking idiots
I'm not sure what you're afraid of.....relax, calm yourself....this may not be worthy of your heart attack....cool your jets, really.
I stopped at "drawing value from the population"
We are not some resource that capitalists can exploit
Read deeper - the value is the meaning, the impact, the change.
Would you please make your stupid rant a little longer next time. Judging by your ignorance of the facts you are from virtual wall street.
If you are from Wall street all you are doing is showing your fear
If you are from Wall street why are you trying to be helpful
So many questions about the wall street stink. Hey, that's why we are here
There's that polarizing behaviour again. I gave my opinion (Read: O-P-I-N-I-O-N). Of which fact in particular do you think I'm ignorant?
PS - My Wall Street is far from virtual. In fact, I am ignorant of what you mean by that?
Just wait my dear wall Street Executive soon you days of screwing the people is over.
Thanks for the condescending advice WSExec. It's too bad you are located in the craddle of liberty and it has done nothing to help you recognize the validity of this movement nor your humanity. If your really are a "WSExec"...sit back with your cigar and cognac and swallow hard as you try to live with just how much damage you folks have done to the world. In the final analysis... what have you contributed that has any value?
Stop being so angry. You'll defeat yourself before things even get started.
1) Sit back and read what I said again - my opinion is that the message is incoherent and not being heard (constructive crticism with some advice attached). Notice I didn't say "Go home!" 2) I am most definately a Wall Street Exec. 3) I don't smoke cigars or drink cognac, and you have know idea what I've done. 4) Let's see, I've created tons of jobs by financing companies - can you compete with that... I've had significant positive environmental impact at local levels (though activism and sweat)... I preach politics from smack in the middle at cocktail parties and try to get folks to think about constructive change... I give more to charity (as a % of income) than a majority of people including Occupiers... I've worked in soupo kitchens, been a Big Brother, etc, etc, etc.
bump ... due to edit
WSExec, you are rare ;) ... thank you... would you entertain financing a manufacturing concern that has no collateral ? this is the real problem ... the separation of the haves and the havenots .. anyone can build a successful business with enough family backing behind them... corporate banks too often don't look at the out-come of their decisions ... they simply look for the easy path... am I wrong ?
NOW HEAR THIS: Corporate Tall by VOLTFACE - a song about Wall Street. Wonderfully appropriate! Its the Anthem we needed!
Listen for FREE on BANDCAMP:
http://voltface.bandcamp.com/track/corporate-tall
Available on iTunes as well...
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Stop being a troll you cunt. You probably still live with your mother too, or maybe you didn't have one. This kind of discussion helps nobody.
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There isn't enough constructive criticism on this site. Someone has to do it. We've been too busy pissing on each other that a guy claiming to be a wall st exec had to come and do it for us. Get the picture?
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No, since you continue to show how uneducated you are, the phrase "your eyes are slanted" refers to the views one holds.
What makes saying "hey, you have a drug problem" worse because it came from wall street? What makes it better just because it came from a doctor? A drug problem is a drug problem plain and simple. You don't need specific credentials for it to be true.
Test me
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I played Centipede and Pac Man - not the right test. Should we talk about CAPM, Cap-EX, Market Cap or correlation coefficients? BTW - when the EV/EBITDA of any company gets above 15x it's probably a short or it better be a huge grower.
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Explain the logic of placing an individual in a bucket. We all find a path to make our way in the world. It's not as if everyone on Wall Street sold their soul as the cost of entry. I think you'd be pretty surprised at the diversity of opinion in my world.
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